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Ford Prefect Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 04:35 PM
Original message
The Evangelicals Are Praying...
The following are two email messages I received today. The first was sent to me by a staunch Republican friend; the second is the rebuttal. Please read both.

First Message


Dear Praying Friend,

In 2000, I wrote the 2nd most important letter of my life—a call to prayer for the elections of that year. I'm now writing what may be my most important letter. I knew the importance of those elections in 2000 was beyond any in my life up to that point and that the spiritual warfare surrounding them would be unlike anything any of us had ever seen. That letter was read by millions of people and I believe millions of them responded by praying. I also believe the prayers turned the tide.

You may question whether President Bush was the right choice; obviously, he has made some blunders in his tenure as president. But two of his decisions alone left no doubt he was God's choice: Roberts and Alito. These two Supreme Court Justices have proven critical in the process of breaking the hold of humanism, death and anti-God agendas that have ruled the Court for 50 years. I assure you that more devastation—the shedding of innocent blood, immorality, decay of the family and an erosion of our godly heritage—has flowed into our nation through that institution than any other door in America. Many times more. The poison allowed into America through their decisions is beyond any of our abilities to articulate. The reality in America is that you don't need to control Congress or the White Hose to rule the nation. You only need 5 people – 5 out of 9 on the Supreme Court. And for decades those who disagree with just about everything you and I stand for have been in control!

In Bush's two terms, the process of turning this around began with the appointments of Roberts and Alito. Now, we win some cases 5-4 and lose some 4-5. (We barely outlawed partial birth abortion. The vote of one judge saved thousands of babies from this horror.) We need one more conservative Justice for a consistent majority, then more to build a strong majority.

In Obama's own words, "the next president will appoint at least one, perhaps two or more Supreme Court Justices." He's right. Almost certainly two or more older, liberal Justices are waiting until after the elections to retire, in hopes of Obama winning and appointing more liberals to replace them. And he certainly would. He voted against the confirmation of Roberts and Alito. So did Biden. And Biden led the fight against Justice Thomas several years back, another of the 4 solid conservatives. Make no mistake about it, the two of them do have a litmus test for Supreme Court Justices, and a major part of that test is Roe vs. Wade. McCain and Palin, on the other hand, both have very strong pro-life positions. This alone makes the choice for President simple. To vote for the 2nd and 3rd most liberal senators (Obama and Biden), both of whom are firmly and blatantly proabortion, would be unconscionable. Obama has actually said that if he wins, he would like his first action as president to be the signing of the Freedom of Choice Act, which would eliminate every other law against any aspect of abortion (partial birth abortion, parental notification, etc., etc.). And with a democratic majority in the House and Senate, pretty much any legislation he and Biden want to pass will be a slam-dunk. There are many other unrighteous positions they hold but this position alone makes the choice easy. If they win this election, it will set America back decades in the cause of life and the restoration we seek.

Just as many of you do, I too, want to see a first black President, but not Senator Obama. To allow that noble and godly desire, the economy or one's position on the war to trump this issue of life and death for the innocent unborn is simply wrong. The scriptures teach that if we choose first to exalt righteousness and turn from evil, God promises to heal our land (see Proverbs 14:34; 2 Chronicles 7:14). It is righteousness that exalts a nation, not wealth, prosperity or armies. If we will finish the process of removing the curses of death and anti-God laws off of America by electing a president that will continue to shift the Court, God will grace us with breakthrough in other areas such as the economy, the war against terrorism, etc. My faith is not in a person, and certainly not a political party, for the healing of America , but I know God's word and His ways well enough to know that our decisions do move Him to action or inaction.

Now to the heart of my reason for writing this letter (I realize I am "preaching to the choir"—most of you who know or listen to me are conservative enough to vote for McCain and Palin.) I have not written any appeals for prayer concerning this election because:

1) others have, and
2) I believe our movement has matured to the point that the prayer base of the Church is already praying.

But I now feel the need to raise my voice. I am appealing to you to pray for these elections the next two weeks like you've never prayed for any in the past. Faithfully. Passionately. Boldly. Ask God for His mercy and grace.

We deserve His judgment for removing His influence and authority from our government, schools, homes and businesses; for the killing of 50 million babies; for leading the world in the consumption and exporting of pornography; for passing laws to reject His; etc. But mercy triumphs over judgment and in His wrath He remembers mercy. In 2000 we actually lost the popular vote and won the election—talk about grace! Please pray for this grace to be released again.

But I am also asking you for something more than normal prayer. For those of you who understand spiritual warfare, I am asking you to also include this aspect of prayer. There is no doubt that we have entered a Daniel 10 moment in time: "Then he said to me, 'Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, I have come in response to your words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia'" (Daniel 10: 12-13 NAS). The spiritual warfare in this election is incredibly fierce, and just as it was in Daniel's day, is all about the restoration of a nation. And also like Daniel, we must keep praying until we win the battle in the heavens.

In August of this year I predicted that September would mark a shift in momentum for these elections. This happened with the appointment of Sarah Palin as the Vice Presidential nominee (who is a true Esther in our generation), but when the economy began its meltdown and the media ramped up their unprecedented attacks on Palin, that momentum wasn't sustained. But we can see it turn again if we approach this battle as the spiritual warfare it truly is and bind the evil forces involved (see Matthew 16:18-19). The reality is that this election can be the breakthrough we need to fully shift the Court (and ultimately our nation) or it will be an immeasurable setback that could take many years to reverse—if ever.

Please understand what I am saying: if we engage in this battle and do what I am asking—in mass—we will win; if we do not, we will lose. I, for one, don't intend to allow the latter. I am in Washington , D.C. now (October 20-22) with Lou Engle and a team of prayer leaders from around the nation to war for this election. Join us! Lose some sleep, miss some meals—pray! Pray like never before for these elections. And as you do, involve yourself not only in petitioning prayer but also in spiritual warfare. Use your God-given authority over the plans and strategies of satan's kingdom. Bind all witchcraft that is working to control the outcome, including occultic powers that are suppressing truth. Release Christ's Kingdom rule in every way the Holy Spirit leads you.

Don't be deceived and don't lose hope (if you have to, turn off the TV.) It is not too late to turn these elections. God is plenty powerful enough to do so. The real question is will we rise to the level of prayer and spiritual warfare necessary to release that power. And remember, we don't need a majority of Christians who are willing and able to do this—only a praying remnant. We can do it!

Here are some practical suggestions to consider:

1) Fast (a meal a day; a day a week; a Daniel fast; 3 days; 10 days; TV; etc.) and spend the time praying.
2) Agree in prayer with someone everyday for God's will to be done.
3) Form/participate in prayer groups regularly. Churches could pray everyday.
4) Take time in every gathering to pray. (Take 15 minutes in every service to pray for the elections. Turn an entire service to harp and bowl style intercession—worship and prayer combined.)
5) Join 2 or more on a conference call and pray for 15, 20, or 30 minutes.
6) Pray on the way to work (and on the way home).
7) Pray before you go to sleep.
8) Pray before church services.
9) Ask God to give you His strategy—He will!

In His grip,

Dutch Sheets

That first message had at least three different font colors, plus one whole paragraph shaded for emphasis

Rebuttal:



Re: Evangelicals praying....

The first purpose and aim of prayer should be that we may do God's will, not that God help us do our will or help our political party. The letter assumes that God is so ready to help on a single issue that all other issues of candidate qualifications, philosophy, experience and character are not considerations in deciding how to vote.

Election outcomes in 2000 and 2004 have brought the current mess affecting us all severely, because W's proclaimed "compassionate conservativism" was a facade for his favoring Wall Street over Main Street, his cronies over the rest of us. Repeatedly. Our nation is more weak and vulnerable now than it has ever been in my observing 17 presidential elections, beginning in 1940 with my father lambasting Roosevelt as a Communist because of his programs.

Sincere Christians can feel quite different and as deeply as Evangelicals. Personally I love the Bible and its teachings and lessons as much as anyone and have given my life to follow it. I disagree with anyone who says we should make this issue the sole reason for our voting choice. Catholic bishops have also been wrong in the past in stressing this issue to the exclusion of all others.

There are Evangelicals who think and feel that Global Warming, Health care, Energy, jobs, tax cuts for the rich, and more Justice for the many working poor are as important as the abortion issue. These include a number of evangelical leaders, which can be researched.

We should better pray that the entire gospel guide our choice rather than God help our side and being sure that God is on our side.

Enormous harm has been done in the name of God in human history by those believing most sincerely that God is on their side. Sincerity of Belief is no guarantee of righteousness. To be sure that this mystery we call God is on your side alone is the Ultimate Temptation which is not from the Angel of Light.

There is another view of voting which can be just as Christian as your own.

P____ B____, age 79
pastoral psychologist.
A follower of Christ for 60 years
still with seven different ministries
following Matthew 25, v 31 ff.

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Gasping4Truth Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good for them!!!
I'm sacrificing a puppy to the Flying Spaghetti Monster every other day.
And a kitten on the days in between.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Christians are preying?
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colonel odis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. no true christian would ever send a letter like that one. i don't purport to know
the mind of god, but i have an inkling he'd be none too happy with people named "dutch" implying that they have some inside track to his will.

boy, those people piss me off.
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TennesseeDem Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Seriously
"Dutch Sheets"? Sounds like a porno actor.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. These are the people who believe God is an American...strange as can be
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. So, they're praying that Diebold machines swithch votes?
And people believe the flyers that say Dems vote Nov. 5? And that poor people in Dem areas are too impatient to wait 8 hours to vote? And that the phone lines at call centers stop working? My, how Christian of them!
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RedLetterRev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. You had me at the very first sentence, bravo!
I will also refer them to Mt 22:34-40. All else flows naturally and easily from there.

And, gee, there seems to be an awful lot of "witchcraft" talk going around over there. What went with "I will fear no evil"? If they spent as much energy walking in faith as they did "fearing evil" we might not be in such a mess.

But that's just my observation. Anyone else's mileage may vary.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. Prayer is such a meaningless, useless act of self importance.
Nobody's listening...except for the person praying. Idiots.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Not when the person praying is a liberal democrat....
..... pinko socialist. (that would be me) ;)

Not all Christians are playing for the wrong team.

And, in five days, one of them will be declared the next president of the United States.

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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. The god delusion is strong with you. Doesn't change anything in the real world.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. lol, I'm gonna keep prayin' for you there Stoppie...
... it'll be all right. ;)

Oh and here ... have some Halloween candy too, I got plenty.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. See that's what I don't get
They pray for certain outcomes, but then turn around and say everything is "God's will"

WTF???????

Why bother praying, then?????


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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Shhh ... Don't confuse them with rational thought and logic.
Their little brains might explode and take out innocent bystanders with skull shrapnel.
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liskddksil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. While their off praying
We can keep knocking on doors and making phone calls. Sounds good to me.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. They can pray all they fucking want
their "GOD" isn't listening to the bullshit anymore.

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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. Forget praying...start mixing the Kool-Aid you sick fucks !
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. The people that believe that a God causes events are
mentally ill. They want their notions to be accepted by everyone on this Planet. Many of them would kill others to achieve their goals. Scoffing at such people is a mistake. They are seriously dangerous.
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. And their belief that we will lay down like lambs is dangerous for them !
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SCRUBDASHRUB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. This sounds like the same crap that the VP who I was stuck in the car
with the other day had on the radio. It was a so-called "Family Christian" radio station.

Thread here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7645219&mesg_id=7645219
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. I agree...I read your post yesterday.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. My own rebuttal...
Dear Religious Crackpots:


Mind your own fucking business.

Get your damned noses out of the personal lives of people who don't...and don't want to...live by YOUR interpretation of whichever religion YOU happen to believe in.


Oh, and quit your stinking whining about how you people are so goddamned "persecuted" here.

True "persecution" is when you get killed....murdered...for trying to spread your religion....just like that young woman who was murdered in Afghanistan a week or two ago for trying to spread Christianity.

Worship any damned way you want to here in the US

just don't try to force your beliefs on other people and we'll all get along just fine.

Sincerely,

A former Christian who got sick of the hypocrisy.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. Totally delusional. Nobody is there to hear their stupid prayers.
Also, this asshat thinks that they "saved" thousands of babies, but doesn't give a shit that thousands of Iraqi babies were slaughtered by Bushco. on behalf of U.S. corporate greed.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
18. If the emailer had a forwarding list, you should send it out to all of them also.
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
24. I would have mentioned something about being good stewards
Clearly Bush has not been a good steward of anything he's touched in 8 years.

Otherwise, spot on.
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nomaco-10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
25. About sums it all up... The mcsame campaign is flying on...
Edited on Thu Oct-30-08 06:12 PM by nomaco-10
one wing and a prayer. mclame knows the drill, he's had more than a couple of crash landings in his day.

Five more days everybody, five more days.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
26. I got a similar email today, and replied to all. Part of the original
Edited on Thu Oct-30-08 06:19 PM by usnret88
with rebuttal is here. Original email is in all caps as it was rec'd, my response placed throughout the original was in bold, blue, italics surrounded by brackets. My first try at posting this did not show my response, perhaps because it was blue font. Third edit shows that whatever is inside brackets does not get posted.

NO MATTER WHO TAKES THE PRESIDENCY GOD IS IN CONTROL AND WILL USE THEM FOR HIS PLANS.

Contradiction here. If what you say is true, and god is really in control, and Senator Obama does become president, then it must be god’s will. If one were to say otherwise, then one could be considered to be doubting, disbelieving, disagreeing with the omnipotence, omniscience normally ascribed to god and his (or her) plan. Don’t you think?


AS GOD FEARING AMERICANS WE NEED TO PRAY,READ OUR BIBLE AND REALISE OUR CHRISTIAN VALUES ARE THE BASES FOR OUR DETERMINATION FOR OUR VOTE.

I think that this is the bottom line for this election: people don’t want Sen Obama elected because of racism issues. Everything else is a smokescreen: the Ayers/terrorist connection, abortion, alleged ties with Islam, birth certificate - all distractions because people refuse to say what is really on their minds.
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
27. I was going to say "welcome to DU" but I see you've been here a while!
So I'll just say I love that rebuttal; thanks for posting it!

(And I love your user name!)
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
28. Let em pray.
They pray, we GOTV. Let's see how it works out for them.
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