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kurt_cagle Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 04:12 AM
Original message
The World in 2012
(Warning, LONG post!)

A glimpse of what October 2012 looks like under a McCain presidency:

John McCain is dead of a malignant brain tumor in early 2010, his health so severely compromised due both to the campaign and the strains of trying to run a failing country that he was hospitalized by late 2009. Sarah Palin has become president, though for the most part her staffers have her in a bubble to keep her from knowing what's going on in the outside world. In reality, most of the decisions are made by a secretive cabal of the advisors that the RNC have placed around her, giving her almost no information about what's going on save what THEY want her to know. Congress is back in Republican hands, and after the near miss of 2008, the Republicans have now amended the laws in such a way that no chance of a repeat of 2008 will happen

Anger is the dominant mood. After the election, angry protests were fanned into riots by the police with help from the military, who then used this as an excuse to announce martial law in certain cities, blaming those same blacks and socialists for the actions. This wasn't all that radically different from what had gone on before except for the fact that police now had the authority to search at will and seize property upon the slimmest of pretexts, and corruption consequently skyrocketed (especially as police budgets were reduced). Police had access to intelligence files on all individuals, and people involved in "political crimes" were being jailed in increasing numbers, often with no notification of their whereabouts. Curfews are becoming standard, and they are especially enforced if you're a minority. Lynchings and other hate crimes have also become commonplace. If you have any money at all and you're a homosexual, you are living in Canada right now.

The country itself is broke, after its credit rating was downgraded to AA from AAA, forcing the mass fire sale of trillions of dollars of treasuries at rock bottom prices. In the summer of 2011, the Treasury department unilaterally made the decision that $10 US now equals $1US, after real inflation reached more than 85%. The US military is still in Iraq and Afghanistan, but only because there is quite literally no money to bring them home, and desertions are now reaching 20% per year at the enlisted level and 5% at the officer level, because neither officers nor enlisted personnel have been paid in over six months.

In the US, the official unemployment rate has reached 8%, but that's only because the definition of unemployment has been restricted so radically. Unofficially, it's nearly 40% for white males, and more than 85% for black males. Suburbia has become devastated - in many cases, whole neighbourhoods are now in foreclosure, and there have already been clashes between communities of former homeowners and police working on the side for the banks and collection agencies now springing up (because municipal police budgets have also collapsed). Houses are now no more affordable than they were three years before, not because prices are too high but because no one has a job. Malnutrition is becoming an epidemic, as are cholera and diarrhoea. Tax collections are essentially non-existence in many states, and twenty two states are technically insolvent.

Oil prices, after plunging in 2008, started creeping back up in 2009 due to repeated massive inflationary tactics and real scarcity. By 2010, the average price of a gallon of gas was $7 a gallon, by 2011, it is $15 a gallon and climbing. This doesn't reflect increased demand in the US, but rather reflects the decreasing ability of the government to subsidize that production, higher consumption of oil in other parts of the world (especially in China, which has turned its own dollar holdings to good use in colonizing Africa and South America and turning them into vibrant new markets for Chinese goods). McCain's investment in nuclear energy was made too late to do much good - the four working nuclear plants that have come online cost billions of dollars up front, and have only increased the country's ability to produce electrical power by about 1%. The fiscal crisis of 2011 has essentially tabled the remaining dozen nuclear power plants - all of which are half-completed hulks that will likely have to be torn down before they can be rebuilt due to the stress of weathering.

What this also has meant is that brownouts and even blackouts have become common. The planned rolling blackouts have devastated businesses (though informal distributed generator networks have begun to spring up as a consequence of this) and the unplanned blackouts have become even more common and even harder to work around. Some places, especially ex-burbs, have no power much of the time, and have become the new slums.

Jets are becoming a faint memory - the cost of flying a jet is becoming prohibitive except for the exceptionally well heeled, and most airports are down to perhaps 1/10 the volume of even a few years earlier. Truck traffic is down considerably as well, for the same reason - gas costs too much. Train traffic has risen, but failing infrastructures have made train travel a risky proposition at best, and not all the failures are accidental. Train robbery, long since relegated to the dustbins of history, have become much more common, though typically the strategy is to block the tracks, then crack open the shipping containers and steal what can be stolen. Piracy at sea is similarly becoming more commonplace.

There are protected enclaves, complete with their own security forces, where the wealthy live, though even they are beginning to feel the strain on their bank balances (those that aren't offshore, in foreign currency) and their lifestyle. The rich have to be very careful about leaving their enclaves, however, as anyone with obvious wealth becomes a target for kidnapping for ransom or sometimes outright assassination.

The media are still king in this sector, after having orchestrated the loss of Obama in 2008, and they are now controlling the message that people should become more godly, more religious, with the religions in question being the particularly virulent forms of fundamentalism that encourages both obedience to the state and a profound hatred of those who may choose to be Un-American in their thoughts and actions - defined as those people who protest the decision of the state (or just happen to be different in some way). For those who hew to the status quo, Sarah Palin is considered a saint, the Eva Peron of the United States of America, and the extreme poverty that these people face is due to the actions of racial minorities (especially blacks) and "socialists" (progressives and liberals).

It is a nation of demagoguery, and secessionist pressures are high throughout the country. Within five years it is likely that those areas farthest from the immediate control of Washington will attempt to leave the union, possibly assisted by the creation of regional trading blocs that start circulating their own internal currencies, likely starting with the West Coast, then New England, then possibly the Midwest (though this will not have yet happened by 2011). It is a nation self-destructing.

A glimpse of what October 2012 looks like under an Obama presidency:

One of the first actions that Barack Obama took upon gaining the White House in 2008 was to perform an internal audit first upon the auditors of the executive department and of the GAO, firing those people who had exhibited gross incompetence or corruption and replacing them with people who were neither. Once this task was done, the next stage was to begin the process of auditing both the government and those businesses (especially in the financial sector and milindustrial sphere) that had also significantly lined their pockets illegally or unethically. Electronic regulation systems were put into place in both areas to keep such transactions more translucent (if not necessarily completely transparent)

Once enough of the accounting had taken place to start determining irregularities, those involved with those irregularities were also either removed or heavily fined and limited from seeking future government contracts. Indictments were also forthcoming, though this process was ongoing through much of Obama's term.

Legislation revisited after Obama came into office also gave considerable more control over banks that had been involved in the bailout, including the revision that such bailout involved preferred rather than non-preferred stock, meaning that the government had the opportunity (for a limited period of time) to effectively hire and fire boards of directors and C-level officers of these organizations. Additionally, policies were put into place to force banks to renegotiate loans for properties that were financially underwater (the mortgage was appreciably higher than the value of the property), while mortgage origination became part of the authority of the government (as did oversight of state real-estate appraisers). Finally, Gramm-Bliley was overturned in early 2011, and a formal wall was re-established between retail and investment banking.

The next course of action involved stabilization of the currency, a process begun even before the election itself. Congress passed new legislation introducing tariffs against China if they did not let their currency float. In a tense stand-off in mid-2009 (with both Chinese and US ships in the Gulf of Japan), the Chinese agreed to a compromise that allowed the Remninbi to float to up to 15% above or below the US dollar, which effectively forced Chinese goods to rise by 15% relative to US goods.

Economic stimulus packages were passed targeting mixed fuel cell hybrid automobiles, with the packages themselves basically tied to progress in achieving these goals. By 2011, after GM split up into three smaller (and more agile companies) about 25% of their total line of cars were such hybrids. Indeed, divestment became the modus operandi of large corporations that found that, due to more transparency due to electronic regulations, that the tax advantages of being large were no longer worth the effort.

By mid-2010, although the economy itself was still shedding jobs, the numbers had slowed considerably, and certain sectors – education, information technology, alternate energy, and biomedical research, were actually experiencing spot applicant shortages again. H1B visas were dramatically scaled back, and could only be issued if the company in question could prove that there were no qualified applicants within the US.

The formal invasion of Iraq ended in May 2011, though a multinational peacekeeping force was maintained in the former Green zone, headquartered in what had been the larger part of the US Embassy in Iraq. This force also provided stipulation for other countries to negotiate with the Iraq government to bring in contractors. The CEO and board of directors of Halliburton and Blackwater were arrested under the RICO provisions. In 2010, the Patriot Act was also rescinded, and Guantanimo Bay was closed and returned to the Cubans as part of normalization relations after Fidel Castro died in that same year.

Afghanistan was perhaps the only major policy failure, primarily because the increasing desertification of the country had made it inhospitable to habitation. Intelligence (now increasingly reliable on the ground) also indicated, as many had suspected, that Osama Bin Laden had in fact died roughly eight years before.

In late 2009, Obama convened a summit of world leaders in Davos, Switzerland, each facing their own battered economies, and together they hammered out the Davos accords, which laid out the foundations of an international monetary system, one that ended the era of dollar hegemony. The terms were not especially favorable to the US, though they were better than the alternative, which would have involved the US effectively defaulting on trillions of dollars worldwide. As a consequence of this, the feared de-rating of US treasuries didn't occur, and the US was able to restructure its own debt in a more manageable way.

By fall of 2011, the US economy was beginning to recover from a severe recession, due in part to re-employing people on infrastructure improvements, from train tracks and systems to the development of distributed electrical systems to the reinvigoration of the American educational system. Standards of living had fallen somewhat, but even manufacturing jobs were beginning to increase as the incentives to outsource jobs to other countries faced higher fees, tariffs, and restrictions. Health care became nationalized by the government being forced to buy out the insurance companies and HMOs in 2009, during which Obama used the opportunity to introduced standards of accounting and reporting into that industry as well, developing a mixed public/private health care system that provided basic service needs but also allowed supplemental care packages by private providers.

Moreover, intense and increased investments in algae based biofuels were beginning to pay off in terms of production, though it would still be some time before they were producing fuel at the volume necessary. Jets were increasingly being replaced by slower (but much more fuel-efficient) turbo-props, and dirigibles as well as high speed trains were replacing trucks and jets as the primary mechanism for moving things around. Half a dozen nuclear reactors were just coming online by 2011 (utilizing a French design), which, while still controversial, helped considerably to stabilize the economic grid.

Finally, by 2011, the hold that the traditional broadcast media had on the marketplace of ideas was broken by a strengthening of the FCC provisions concerning media ownership, the passage of a formal Net Neutrality bill, and the ever stronger role of the Internet in people's lives.

There were, of course, still problems. The fall-off of oil production in the Middle East was accelerating, leading to greater instability in Saudi Arabia especially. The Russians had established forward bases in Iceland, and were in and on-again/off-again war with Georgia. Climate change was still an issue, though one increasingly approached by shifting FEMA from a response-oriented agency to a proactive one that served to limit growth in high impact areas.
========================================================

Large business will generally hate Obama, though there will be a number of exceptions. Information technologies, energy technologies, infrastructure companies and the the biomedical field will all do very well under him. Those that have most benefited under George Bush will likely benefit least from Obama. On the other hand, I can see him making a huge difference in the way that the economy itself is shaped that will get us out of a serious economic downtown, simply because he's the kind of person who is able to look at problems and see solutions that are out of the box.

McCain tends to be too limited by his own ideology and history, and is inclined to see every problem as one that he personally must solve. Obama, on the other hand, has shown a gift for thoughtful delegation, for creating consensus and for getting people to come to the table. The idea of McCain convening world leaders – and worse, compromising on the role of the dollar – is almost intrinsically absurd, but it is something that Obama would do naturally. Moreover, this all assumes that McCain survives long enough to deal with these crises in a rational manner, and the evidence is becoming increasingly suggestive that he won't.
This then brings up Sarah Palin. Palin would become either a tyrant or a puppet, and in either case she would likely be very easily manipulated. She has already shown a penchant for demagoguery, and she would impose her own very select and limited views of what is right and wrong upon the American people. Her past history suggests that corruption comes naturally to her, and with her in the White House, it is very likely that the United States would enter into a mix of totalitarianism and anarchy. I can foresee no scenario where, if she was elected, the country itself would not be tearing itself apart in civil war within six years.

Consider this when entering the voting booth.
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musicblind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 04:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. Wow. Talk about hyperbole
I mean, I have no desire to live under a McCain administration, and I fear what America would become... but it wouldn't become a heathen world of martial law where blacks are lynched and gays are run out of the country to canada and Republicans take over congress and 40% unemployment and soldiers deserting the army in mass because they haven't been paid in 6 months... And certainly we would not be living in permanent martial law with anyone who even thinks of apposing McCain being thrown in prison and no news of their whereabouts being given.

If you actually believe that will happen then you are kind of out of touch with reality.

Now don't get me wrong. Things will be a disaster of McCain is president... It would be a continuation of Bush policy. But McCain/Palin/Bush does not equal Hitler.
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kurt_cagle Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Continuation of Bush's policies
The point that I'm trying to make with all of this is that this is in fact what I see a continuation of Bush's policies leading us to. This makes the huge assumption that by hook or crook the election gets thrown by various and sundry machinations (I honestly do not see that happening myself). The economic system right now is sitting on a precipice - and there are still a number of factors that could cause things to melt down well below current levels. I'm assuming here a basically non-interventionist set of policies, the same poor management style exhibited by McCain that we saw during his campaign, and following through on most of this with fairly conservative assumptions. The credit rating default is a very real possibility, one that was made a few days ago by a well respected economic forecasting group. If Treasury Bonds went from a AAA to a AA rating, it would cause all kinds of havoc, as this becomes a redemption event because most companies and municipalities cannot hold anything less than AAA paper. If that happens, then our ability to pay government officials, including the military, is zip, because the money would be effectively worthless.

In times of hyperinflation and devaluation (which is what this would end up being), people get angry. Already you can see the level of effort being put by the media into trying to turn this election into a referendum on race. In a situation like I'm describing above, it is much easier to redirect that anger from the rich white people who did this to you in the first place to the black people further down the socioeconomic rung, something Republicans have been doing for years.

In Minnesota, during the GOP convention this year, a number of individuals were arrested "proactively" - they were "agitators" coordinating the demonstrations who were picked up by plain-clothes police before the demonstrations were to take place and who were held with neither a judicial hearing nor access to a lawyer for several weeks on largely trumped up charges. Similar actions have occurred at other protests.

I don't really think there's much I'm exaggerating here. The stock market's lost nearly 40% of its value - and this is only just beginning to have an impact upon companies (as the credit crisis is). Already the official unemployment stats are at 6.1%, and if you go by the valuation methods used before 1995, the unemployment factor is probably closer to about 11% already - and is a staggering 38% for African American men between the ages of 18 and 35. Things are going to get bad regardless of who gets in, but I just don't see either McCain or Palin doing anything constructive about it. Thus, I see this as a worst case scenario, one where effectively the goals involved are those that make sense to a neoCon or religious right conservative, but not necessarily those that make sense to most "normal" people.
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Liberalboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Um, I'm gay
and I left the United States in 2006 and now live in Toronto....you'd be surprised how many couples followed our lead.
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musicblind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Um, I'm gay. I perform in gay clubs all across NC and VA.
I don't know a SINGLE gay person who has left the country because of politics. I call bullshit on your anecdotal evidence.
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Liberalboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. that's right
if you didn't say it must not be true. You don't want to believe me that's fine, but don't flame me because I chose to live in a different country and have helped countless other gay couples do the same. Leaving the united states had many more reasons then politics, but I'd be lying if I didn't say the republicans didn't help. However, I got enough "retaliation" from my friends when I left because I was not staying to fight the fight I certainly don't need it from you.
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musicblind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Oh I don't think anyone should give you grief for leaving.
You can still fight the fight while in another country.

However, my experiences differ drastically from yours and pointing out that you are gay does not give you anymore knowledge over how gay people are behaving than it does to me. I stand by what I have said. I do NOT know any gay people who have left the country and I know a TON of gay people. I know far more gay people than I know straight people.
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Gasping4Truth Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. What music are you blind to?
Edited on Thu Oct-30-08 08:38 AM by Gasping4Truth
Katrina & The Waves?

Eerily similar events to what you call "hyperbole" did actually happen in a nice little petri dish called NOLA for you to behold:

  • Policemen deserting during the flood to fend for their own families & homes
  • Desperate, exhausted & dehydrated refugees prevented by armed thugs from walking over a bridge to a safer shore.
  • City & State government couldn't be bothered to evacuate the citizens without own means of transport before the hurricane hit.
  • Federal government couldn't be bothered to give a flying fuck about the disaster, while the whole world became heartbroken watching the people withering away and dying slowly in the Superdome and on city roofs everywhere.
  • When the Bush Cab^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H, excuse me government finally got their asses off the ground, their first priorities were, in order of urgency:

    1. Searching for, and shooting down so-called "looters" who were swimming into stores looking for infant formula, on the grounds of them exercising their 2nd amendment right, and of them happening to take away some cigarettes for comfort too.
    2. Mowing down the grassroots relief efforts that had sprung up in the meantime, allegedly to protect them against said "looters".
    3. Organizing countless photo-ops with the Chimperor-in-Chief* wearing his hardhat backwards, holding his hammer prop wrong and showing off manly rolled-up sleeves.
    4. Allowing said Chimp* to promise the Greatest Relief Effort the World has Ever Seen.


    Oh yeah, before you accuse me of "hyperbole", I forgot to mention that in the meantime, the people who managed to hang on long enough, were eventually plucked from their roofs!

Would you prefer to be walked through the long-term aftermath of Katrina until this date, or can you educate yourself on your own from here on? (hint: the Promise mentioned in point #4 never came true by a loooong shot) Good reading materials can be found here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-klein/the-shock-doctrine-in-act_b_77886.html
http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/resources/part7/chapter20

One little homework assignment that has the potential of poking holes in your "hyperbole"-filter is the following challenge:

Which senator was celebrating his birthday, complete with goofy photo-ops together with the Chimp*, while people along the Gulf coast were drowning?

You can use every resource at your disposal to solve this riddle, but I'd suggest Google for convenience.

(*) With my sincere apologies to Jane Goodall and our wonderful cousins of the genus Pan: no offence meant!
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musicblind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I am severely hearing impaired and a political rights musician. That is where the word musicblind
Edited on Thu Oct-30-08 09:34 AM by musicblind
comes from. Thank you for insulting my handicap. However, I am still able to write wonderful progressive music that touches on informed and important progressive political topics. My music is similar to Ani Difranco. One of the best musicians out there.

As far as your claim that the Katrina disaster means that the entirely unrelated and unrealistic scenario laid out by the OPster will come true... I could easily point out good things and good ways in which the public has behaved to counter that.

This kind of hyperbole was used in 2004... and did it come true? Nope.

So no. The isolated event of Katrina has absolutely, positively, zero things to do with the original post. I love how you cling to it in an attempt to justify otherwise. Katrina, as you said, was an isolated mistake that AGAIN the American people (not the mismanaged administration) rose above. Just as the American people would rise above any other goofs by McCain's mismanaged administration. It is total bullshit to say, because Bush mismanaged Katrina, that McCain will drive America into a dictator type regime of mass persecution and exodus..... you live in a fantasy world were you demonize results.

Will things be much worse off, will the rich keep getting richer. Yes. Will we enter into the insane fantasy world the Original Poster created. No. It is as crazy as the nuts who claim Obama would turn to socialism.
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kurt_cagle Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Getting People to Think
Most of the scenarios I pulled together from above have already happened in one form or another during the last eight years. This scenario may not describe Seattle, Washington, say, four years from now, but I could very easily see it applying to places in Pennsylvania, or Birmingham, Alabama. Birmingham is insolvent today. When a city (or state) is insolvent, they cannot pay their workers. Those workers become unemployed in a hostile economic environment.

The tech sector went through a severe recession in 2001-2004, a recession that for most other people was non-existent. Programmers that had been making the then princely sum of $85,000 or more a year were suddenly finding themselves sleeping back in their parent's bedrooms, or worse sleeping under bridges. This in a recession that barely made it to CNN.

We've not had a worldwide recession of this magnitude since the 1930s, and at that time, the population was much smaller. Take a look at history. The 1930s was a turbulent period, and if it hadn't been for the intelligence of FDR, we could very easily have become another Germany ... and financially we were better off than many in Western Europe at the time. You don't read about these things in school textbooks except in passing, but this was an era of mass protests, of lynchings and of a cutthroat underground economy (it wasn't just alcohol being transported during the prohibition era).

I'm not really trying to make up a dystopia here (okay, maybe a little, but not much). I'm not necessarily even saying that I think McCain and or Palin are evil people, only that they ARE the kind of people that will let a situation spiral out of control because they don't know what to do in a crisis, and the number of crises we will be facing, ones that we know about, are already pretty daunting.

The world I outlined in the McCain section is not far from where we are right now, and I think the only real reason we aren't there was that Bush lost control of Congress in 2006.
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Gasping4Truth Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Fiction isn't necessarily "hyperbole"
Edited on Thu Oct-30-08 12:24 PM by Gasping4Truth
I am severely hearing impaired and a political rights musician. That is where the word musicblind comes from. Thank you for insulting my handicap. However, I am still able to write wonderful progressive music that touches on informed and important progressive political topics. My music is similar to Ani Difranco. One of the best musicians out there.

It's really great how you carved out this very unusual and creative path for yourself. But grow a thicker skin. I will not stop mentioning people's screen names just because I might step on some toes occasionally. I don't - as per John Cleese - refrain from asking a woman if she has kids, just because they might all have died in a car crash the other day.

This kind of hyperbole was used in 2004... and did it come true? Nope.

When a scenario fails to come true, doesn't mean it's hyperbole by definition. Let's see what we knew already by 2004.
The Bush Cabal:
  • bungled the hunt for Bin Laden. (Let's assume 9/11 wasn't foreseeable or preventable, so we don't blame them for failing to prevent that)
  • bungled the case for war against Iraq. It was all based on lies.
  • bungled the occupation of Iraq. People there were much better off under Saddam than after the invasion: women's rights, no civil war, no Al Qaeda copycats, no car bombs, no fear for a bunch of heavily armed paranoiacs patrolling the streets and shooting at everything that moves, and arresting or killing everyone who doesn't understand immediately the orders barked at them in English or broken Arabic.

A pattern of serial criminal neglect starts to appear. The idea that the same criminal neglect could be used one day against the homefront didn't seem so ludicrous anymore, by 2004.

And then Katrina happened.

The isolated event of Katrina has absolutely, positively, zero things to do with the original post. I love how you cling to it in an attempt to justify otherwise. Katrina, as you said, was an isolated mistake

You seem to think of the Katrina disaster as some kind of freak accident that nobody could have foreseen, let alone prevented. I suggest you browse for a while through the DU archives from during the days prior to Katrina's landfall. You will learn the forum was abuzz at the time with threads about the disrepair of the levees and the inaction of the mayor regarding evacuation.

If you have a city with parts of it below sea level, smack at the forefront of Hurricane Alley, you better make sure those levees are checked/maintained regularly. Failing to do so can't be attributed to mere stupidity. Failing to do so is criminal neglect. That was already obvious back at the time, without the hindsight we have now.

I could easily point out good things and good ways in which the public has behaved to counter that.

A harsh time will always produce its share of heroes, and it's good to take heart at that. But the point is, it never should have happened the way it did, because it was perfectly avoidable. And all these heroes and helpful good people could not undo the damage that's been done. They just prevented it from getting worse.

So no. The isolated event of Katrina has absolutely, positively, zero things to do with the original post.

It has everything to do with the original post. That hypothetical scenario describes the situation in New Orleans pretty accurately, only on a nationwide scale. A nationwide emergency situation is all it takes. Like a prolonged and severe oil shortage for example. Caused by the Strait of Hormuz becoming a war zone for a couple of months. If someone like Comical John is on the rudder at that moment, things could get out of hand readily. If he could look into a camera back in the beginning of 2007 and keep a straight face while claiming that foreign tourists could walk the streets of Baghdad safely and stroll through the markets freely, then he's the ideal candidate for out-neglecting the current resident Criminal Neglector.

Is this a realistic scenario? Frankly, I don't know. Is it hyperbole? Hell no!
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nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
10. Send this to the Obama campaign
I have no idea whether the events depicted in this post will come to pass or not, but if the GOP can use fear to make people vote for them, why shouldn't we?
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
11. I stopped after the first two lines.
This is just as idiotic as the predictions the fundamentalists put out.

Grow up.
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musicblind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Thank you! And I'm getting bashed for saying so just a few posts up in this thread!
Edited on Thu Oct-30-08 01:58 PM by musicblind
Which sucks :(

Glad to finally see someone who agrees with me. It is clearly over the top and unrealistic. It's just like the freepers who think they will be moved to concentration camps.

It'd be awesome if you'd respond to some of the posts made up thread :) I'm getting bashed there simply because I am not bat-shit insane.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. We'd both be wasting our time.
Right now, only you're doing so. :-)

Take solace in knowing that there are far, far more people that agree with you than them.
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Gasping4Truth Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. You guys remind me of some people I know
when they stare at a Picasso painting. The painting is being called ridiculous because it is not realistic. Because 4 yr olds draw people that way. Because it doesn't depict the things the way things are. Because whoever likes this kind of art must be bat-shit insane!

I think it's pretty clear by now that the OP intended this story to be a work of fiction. And fiction, be it science fiction or political fiction or whatever, doesn't need to be realistic in order to tell us a thing or two about our current society. A story about a farm full of talking animals with pigs running the show might sound ludicrous, but it can tell us some valuable things about what humans are.

Imagine for a moment - I know you will call this too unrealistic to be thinkable, but hey, that's the imaginative power of science fiction for you! - just let's imagine that you were able to do time travel and go back to November 2000 and visit your younger self at the time. You tell him all the incredible things that happened between then and now: the vote counting debacle in the following month, 9/11, the Patriot Act, the color coded warning system, the duct tape, the National Security Letters, Guantanamo, the loss of interest by the government in Bin Laden while at the same time lying its ass off about WMDs in Iraq, the fake TV news reports planted by the government, the failure to find WMDs after the invasion in Iraq, the way Bush thinks he can make inappropriate jokes about it to the press corps, the failure to provide a minimum level of basic services for the Iraqis, Abu Ghraib, the Katrina debacle, the laws passed to allow torture, the laws passed to allow systemic eavesdropping on citizens and so on and so on and so on ... How do you think your younger self would react to that litany? My guess is, he would scoff at you saying it is an unrealistic nightmare scenario. He would tell you to go somewhere else with your ridiculous stories. That it wasn't the America he used to know, so it wouldn't be the America of the next 8 years.

Flash forward to today and we find ourselves discussing the story of the OP. You scoff at it saying it is unrealistic, ridiculous, despite the fact that it is rooted in current events.

Perhaps you don't think John McCain will be as bad as Bush. But then there's always Sarah Palin to make your worst nightmares come true.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yet another post that lost me in the first line.
No, no reasonable person could have predicted the past 8 years back in 2000. But then again, making any wild predictions for any interval of the future is equally ludicrous.

If you want to enjoy fan-fic, there are sites devoted to that. DU is not one of them.
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Gasping4Truth Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. You're the only one in this thread using the word 'prediction' here
Stop seeing things that really aren't there.

I've read lots of fiction on DU already. Ever heard of the "Writing Group"? You don't have to tell me what DU is all about. Or what it's not about.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. That's funny - this forum doesn't look like the Writing Group.
Perhaps it should've been posted there instead.
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Gasping4Truth Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Why can't you just stand your ground
instead of moving the goalposts all the time?

One time you call the OP idiotic, and the other time you call it fan-fic. It can't be both at the same time, right Vash?

First you claim fiction doesn't belong on DU, and then you say that it does have its place here, as long as it's not outside the Writing Group. I think that within a few more posts, we will have found common ground: No fiction allowed in LBN!

And what about you being the spokesperson of the Silent Majority (post #14). Is that your attempt at fiction?
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