URGENT: Democracy will die a touch screen death in 2008

[SoCalDemocrat]

I just confirmed my suspicion about the touch screens set up by Diebold (now ES&S). When Mccain is listed first, many votes for Obama will be erroneously recorded for McCain. The reverse is true in the case where a county for some reason listed Obama ahead of McCain. I suspect few will. Look to the swing states with ESS machines and Mccain listed first on the touch screen panels. We must act now or we are going to lose.

We cannot stand by and let them steal another election. Early elections are giving us a chance to raise the red flag and get he word out. Alert the media while there is still time to get these machines shut down or changed. A 10% error in voting for Obama will swing the entire election easily to McCain.

It is not enough to just be careful when you vote. Millions won't read this blog, they won't know, and they will vote incorrectly. Call your local media outlets and email the national outlets starting with CNN. CNN ran the story that "concluded" it was just voter error or a one time "calibration error". Go after them, pressure them to cover this properly and point out the voting design flaw with the tocuh screens.

It is possible these machines are being "calibrated" so the touch screen hit box (invisible box the software detects being pressed) is being moved down or even widened so it overlaps the top of the Obama box. In fact if the memory or software has been tampered with, anything is possible in terms of simple tampering that could throw the election. Right now there is no way to know without a computer forensic inspection of the machines. It is likely however that there is no malicious software and simply by the design of the electronic ballot the Republicans will steal millions of Obama votes.

Get the word out immediately. Contact the media outlets, your friends, anyone you can. Tell them the machines must either be removed or the layout of the Presidential vote buttons need to be changed. The two buttons MUST be moved apart and have no other vote buttons immediately around them.

See http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6561
and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sDoyCGVacU

In the video above you can see the Presidential names "McCain" and "Obama" are in the top left corner of each button in small font. Why not in the middle of the button in large font? Because if you try to click on the text "Obama" you are likely to cast a vote for McCain instead as long as Obama appears directly below the McCain button. To even design the ballot this way in the first place with both candidates jammed together on a touch screen should be criminal.

Double check this yourself. I guarantee you that Obama is listed directly ABOVE McCain in this Decatur County election referenced below. In most counties, you will no doubt discover McCain appears above Obama. Womever the presidential candidate is listed 2nd, many erroneous touch screen votes will be cast for the candidate above listed 1st.

______________________
http://www.decaturcountyonline.com/article.asp?art=1244

Machine Problems Frustrate Early Voters
by Jennifer Clendenion
10/22/08

Several Decatur County voters are concerned about problems with the voting machines at the Election Commission Office. Voters claim they tried to vote for McCain for President but the machine checked Obama instead.
At least three voters encountered the problem when casting their early ballot on Saturday morning. Franklin Boroughs says he intended to vote for Republican but rather the computer had checked the Democratic candidate instead.
Wanda and Barney Blasingim similarly said they tried to vote for McCain but the machine switched the vote.
“I noticed the problem immediately,” Wanda said Monday. She says she touched the “button” for McCain a second time and the problem was corrected. Her husband said he asked for assistance from election workers and was told the error sometimes occurs when a person’s finger touches close to the line of the box the candidate’s name is in.
While Blasingim maintains that his finger was not on the line, Election Commissioner Rick Box said the trouble may be that when a person is standing in front of the machine, it may appear their finger is poised over one button but it is actually closer to the button above.

(SEE LINK FOR FULL STORY)

[GrizzlyMan]

1. Exactly

Everyone needs to stay home. Your vote doesn't count.

[SoCalDemocrat]

28. Everyone needs to speak out so Democracy can prevail - nt

[Kokonoe]

36. Thats what all the freepers are saying.(stay home)

But if we want to elect Obama we need to turn out Double. Because of election fraud.

Its simple.

[Lance31]

127. Take a can of WD 40 and help lubricate the machine so it works better.

[bagrman]

135. Take a list of canidates with you that your voting for and stick it to the front with a magnet.

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. Voters should cut their voting fingernail short for election day

Especialy if they have fat, stubby fingers, have a problem with one eye or their hands tremble. Reason: Touch sensitive screens usually select the place of greatest pressure, which will be at the fingernail.

Of course, if one sees the wrong candidate come up, the person needs to clear the vote and point a little lower or higher as the case may be.

And why do we need to tell people this? Isn't it obvious?

[NYC_SKP]

5. What voters should do (from the article linked in the OP):

(and tell everyone you know in these states)

These are among the steps recommended, with which I strongly concur:

* Call poll supervisors to observe the problem
* Fill out a problem report
* Refuse to vote on that machine
* Request that the machine be taken out of service
* Get a serial number of the machine if possible (may be unlikely in many cases)
* Tell other voters not to vote on that machine
* Call county/town election office
* Call local reporters
* Call voter problem hotlines (eg. 866-MYVOTE1 and 866-OUR-VOTE)
* Contact bloggers and Election Integrity websites.
* Raise holy hell.

:patriot:

[SoCalDemocrat]

15. Contact the media

Best thing we can do now is flood CNN and MSNBC and the mainstream media outlets with protests and reqeusts for an immediate investigation into the ballot layout with requests to fix it at once. If the election goes forward with this design, it will be over and too late to correct it. Remember DIEBOLD (ES&S) machines have no audit trails. There is no way to prove a vote was miscast, other than what will once more be horribly skewed exit polls vs. actual results, which will be discounted.

Do all the things mentioned in the reply above, but also act NOW to write the media and your (D) Congress.

[NYC_SKP]

16. kicking...nt

[Doctor_J]

70. You must be joking

Why would Big Media suddenly take interest in the fact that Their Candidate is going to steal the election?

My advice is to be prepared for the worst from Nov 5-10. Something tells me that this time we're going to protest more vigorously than last.

[Raster]

61. This post NEEDS its own thread!!!

Please consider posting and cross-posting this important information.

Unlike Selections 2000, 2002, 2004 AND 2006, there is a very good chance that real, meaningful investigation into electoral fraud will take place. The more reports--good, well-documented reports--the more "ammunition" for insisting that comprehensive investigations--and prosecutions where warranted--will take place. Knowledge IS power. Ignorance is... well, just ignorance.

[SoCalDemocrat]

72. Vote early - take your phone/camera to the polls - record it

Go and vote early. When you do take a picture as you vote. Click on the upper portion of the button on top of the "Obama" name on the button. If it lights up for McCain, snap a picture or better yet rip off a short video clip.

Post the video or images and link them here. Forward to the news media.

[Swagman]

80. yes yes ! everyone take a camera and film your vote !! pass the message on

[sellitman]

85. Make this a stand along post.

I will if you want.

[keekers]

79. which finger is it that needs a fingernail trimmed??? }( }( }(

[meow2u3]

88. If you have fat fingers

use a pencil--on the eraser side--to prevent your vote from flipping. And don't forget to push down and do not roll your pencil eraser.

edit: eraser, not finger

[SoCalDemocrat]

Call 1-866-OUR-VOTE to report voting problems

Call 1-866-OUR-VOTE to report voting problems with early voting or on election day.

http://www.alternet.org/democracy/100859/nation%27s_largest_election_protection_coalition_launches_hotline%2C_website/

[SoCalDemocrat]

118. Call 1-866-OUR-VOTE to report voting problems

Call 1-866-OUR-VOTE to report voting problems with early voting or on election day.

http://www.alternet.org/democracy/100859/nation%27s_largest_election_protection_coalition_launches_hotline%2C_website/

[Joe Chi Minh]

126. I can't ever recall reading a more foolish, disingenuous post than this one, ever.

Why, indeed? Because you're talking 100% BS. People can recognise a button. People can push a button - even with long fingernails. ".... a little higher or a little lower", my backside!

[Cronus Protagonist]

134. Ignorance provides a poor yardstick

eom

[Joe Chi Minh]

151. You miss the point. The idiocy (in this case "crookedness") is on the part

of the manufacturers and, instead of slating them, there you are giving detailed instructions on how you figure they should cut their fingernails and negotiate their way around the screen by trial and error (and this from the country that sent a man to the moon) - implicitly condoning Diebold and/or Sequoia's chicanery. You'd have been better employed writing a diatribe against the manufacturers or at least making some reference to these shenanigans before your instructions.

Do you really think the difficulties posed by those screens for Democratic voters are accidental? Of course, they were bound to throw in a few flips to the Dems, though it's too little and too late to cover up the massive fraud, particularly in the previous elections.

[SoCalDemocrat]

138. Have you ever used a touch screen?

Have you ever used a touchscreen? Did you watch the utube video and see how the vote choices were laid out? I've spent years working and writing software for touch screen applications. With the buttons that close together, and the labels "Obama" and "McCain" placed along the top edge, it is going to be hard for voters NOT to make mistakes.

[Cronus Protagonist]

145. I use them every day at work

That's how I know about the screen favoring the fingernail. Touch screens relay pressure information and the software think the intent of the user is best interpreted where the pressure is highest, which is at or around the fingernail, as you and I both know, but I guess it's not general knowledge.

[Joe Chi Minh]

149. Autodeleted.

[Joe Chi Minh]

152. Precisely. I know next to nothing about them, but see my post #149 in reply to Cronus.

[NYC_SKP]

3. Recommending all threads on this issue.

Everything unrelated to election fraud can take a back seat...

[SoCalDemocrat]

6. This is the November surprise

I agree 100%. Back in 2000 I was up all night monitoring early election results and exit polls. I kept screen shots of the CNN websites results and saw the votes going backwards for Gore, the vote flipping, etc. The same problems occurred in 2004.

We cannot stand by and let them steal another election. Early elections are giving us a chance to raise the red flag and get he word out. Alert the media while there is still time to get these machines shut down or changed. A 10% error in voting for Obama will swing the entire election easily to McCain.

It is not enough to just be careful when you vote. Millions won't read this blog, they won't know, and they will vote incorrectly. Call your local media outlets and email the national outlets starting with CNN. CNN ran the story that "concluded" it was just voter error or a one time "calibration error". Go after them, pressure them to cover this properly and point out the voting design flaw with the tocuh screens.

[DemzRock]

4. Bring your PDA styluses or borrow your kid's DS! n/t

[stolivodka]

7. How do we know that they aren't changing votes without any on-screen indication?

Oh, that's right. We don't. Team of thousands of lawyers -- we need you NOW!

[KathieG]

9. That's what really scares me.

[SoCalDemocrat]

17. They could but it would leave a trail

This way they don't have to leave any visible tracks in the software. The "calibration" referenced is probably aligning the counties ballot design with the invisible software touch screen buttons which are overlayed over where the ballot is displayed on the monitor. They may be playing games with this calibration factor, but they might not need to do so for the results to go to McCain. Enough unwitting folks clicking on Obama's name which is so close to the McCain button as to cause McCain votes will throw the results, and this won't leave a trace. It's not like the voter gets a hard copy receipt that he will visually inspect after casting a vote!

I believe 2000 and 2004 had some direct tampering cases, but this design is diabolical. They only need to gather a small amount of errors to win the election.

Again bump the thread, but then go and write a letter to MSNBC or your Congressperson.

[stolivodka]

32. Who would pick up such a trail?

Closed source software. No public or even government access to "trade secrets" permitted.

[NoSheep]

43. and if "who" did? They'd say WhO was a conspiracy theorist.

[Realityhack]

119. Not if the software is incorrectly designed.

Previously they ran software that allowed self deleting programs to access and alter all audit logs.
If the software is written badly you may have no traces remaining.

However I agree that incorrectly calibrating the touch screens is a lot easier and 'safer' so it is more likely.

[bagrman]

136. How about the NM county that had more votes for Bush then people registered.

[LittleApple81]

8. I remember 2004. I even contributed to Bev Harris before she was found to

have huge problems of her own. Why didn't the Democrats put more effort to remedy these problems during the last four years? I know of groups that tried to bring the issue to the forefront and fought battles locally, but the Democratic party as an institution did not do it at the level they should have. This is a question, not trying to adjudicate blame.

[demodonkey]

41. Bev H is not the only one working on this. Please support the many election integrity groups...

...especially those at the state and local level. Most need help and money very much. So much support has gone to the campaigns while these organizations are struggling to protect the vote.

Pick out a group of your choice and HELP. Do not give this up after the election no matter what happens. Get rid of touchscreens. Voter verified paper ballots, marked by the voter and audited by hand.

[SoCalDemocrat]

50. What groups do you reccommend

What groups are best in a position to attack this issue right now in the swing states?

[demodonkey]

114. VerifiedVoting, VotersUnite, lots of state groups... VotePA.us in Pennsylvania of course ;-)

There are lots of groups. Go back through the archives on DU and you will learn some, or just Google.

The state and local ones especially need support as they are on the front lines and are often way underfunded and short on people-power too, but they are the ones facing the officials and the problems head-on.

[Uzybone]

10. Need to keep this issue front and center

[man4allcats]

11. I don't know if this will be helpful, but

in my precinct in Harris County Texas (includes Houston), the voting machines (I voted for Obama last Tuesday) had a piece of paper taped to them with a printed script that said "These are not Touch Screen Voting Machines." I don't know if all precincts in all states will identify their machines, but it certainly made me feel better knowing that my vote would likely be counted.

Edit to Kick and Recommend!

[EFerrari]

12. Should people ask for provisional ballots and then sue to have them counted?

There's no way anything can be done about the machines at this late date.

[diva77]

14. I've been wondering that myself - why do elections officials get away with not

counting the provisionals? I get the feeling that the anticipated provisionals could swing the election at this point!

[SoCalDemocrat]

19. Provisionals are almost never counted

I voted in the same location the past 3 elections. In our special election last year however my name was suddenly missing and they told me I had to vote provisional. Of course it has a big (D) next to my name, and I'm in an extremely Republican heavy district in Southern California.

People should probably go absentee, although it is probably too late to change now.

Our only shot is to get the message out there. I may take the day off work and go to the polls and alert voters entering the polls.

[EFerrari]

27. I know they aren't counted. But we could sue to have them counted

which is more than we'll get by simply pointing out that votes are being flipped and lost. It's too late to go absentee.

[SoCalDemocrat]

29. Perhaps

I think the people we don't reach with the provisional drive are still going to be subject to vote casting errors. If we let everyone know to click the middle or lower part of the button and make certain it lights up for Obama, at least those votes will count correctly (we hope).

You wuold need a massive drive to get people to switch to provisionals, because if you didn't get enough then they would just be throwing away votes.

[EFerrari]

35. We'd need a court order instructing the SOS to provide provisional ballots

and to count them.

In the meantime, we definitely need to warn people to check their choice has registered and how to try to do that, as you describe.

[sonias]

64. You mean emergency ballots

Provisional ballots are not like regular ballots and they are only counted when the election boards meet and make a determination of the voter is qualified. Emergency paper ballots would be a regular ballot of a qualified voter and count on election night.

:hi:

Sonia

[EFerrari]

65. Yes'm. You are right!

:hi:

[Alameda]

112. but the problem with absente is you have to get it ! I still have not

received mine yet, even though I have been voteing absentee for years. I got the sample ballot, voter information, but not the most important thing....the actual ballot. Needless to say I have called about it and am still waiting. I was told I could vote provisional...

[gemlake]

13. This should have been taken care of

when we took over Congress.

I don't care if Obama wins in a landslide. We can't have a voting system in this country that uses unverifiable, privately held, electronic voting machines, run by Republicans.

[SoCalDemocrat]

18. Can anyone get a sample ES&S test ballot?

ES&S (Diebold) must of designed sample ballots. I bet you $100 in their design they have the buttons for votes all smashed together with that small font at the top. Wouldn't be surprised if they had McCain then Obama on the sample ballot either, to make it easier on those hard working local elections officials to "properly design" their ballots. Many could unwittingly have designed these poor ballots. How many local voting officials are familair with touch screens or computer software? I'd guess few to none.

[stolivodka]

33. Pelosi was too busy taking impeachment off the table

..and calling anyone who wants clean elections a "conspiracy theorist".

Now, real voting hasn't even started yet, and we have more reports of mysterious "errors" that only benefit Repukes, and once again, the Democratic party leadership's silence is deafening? Is this another 2004? God, I hope not!

[Bonn1997]

47. Exactly. That is what's so hard for me to understand

[SoCalDemocrat]

20. Can anyone do FLASH or computer graphics?

If we could blow up the screen from the CNN utube video and make a flash video we could better alert people. Blow up the two buttons for President, draw a semi-transparent box over one then the other, and show what happens when your big hammy finger is pressed on "Obama" and the box above is triggered?

Then show the buttons growing to be like 3 inches tall and have a half a foot of white space between them. No possible error with erroneous touch screen behavior can occur without malicous code.

[ellisD]

123. Here's a vote theft animation I just made

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWcFgWoyOHE

Done in After Effects - it's pretty basic but I only spent about 45 min making it, might try to work on it more after I get caught up on homework... feel free to take this and expand on it. Anyone who wants the project source files email me and send them or upload them and send a link

[SoCalDemocrat]

139. That is excellent - vote this up

Can anyone run with this? Add some dialog and a tie in to the CNN video clips already out there on the voting errors being observed.

[KoKo]

143. I just rated this up on You Tube...thanks...!

[Poseidan]

21. Democracy isn't about voting

Voting takes place in both Republics and Democracies.

Democracy actually means the people rule (as opposed to the government). In a Republic, the people do not rule, they elect the people who rule, rather than, for example, the rulers being born into power (like in a monarchy). In a Democracy, you elect government officials, but you also vote on issues and you, as a member of 'the people', are constantly involved with government proceedings.

[SoCalDemocrat]

26. Representative Democracy

Representative Democracy fails if the representative you voted for doesn't get elected because your vote goes to the other guy.

[Frank Booth]

22. Why do I get the feeling that some people actually want Obama to lose just so they can

prove a point about this touchscreen thing?

In any case, if the problem hasn't been fixed by this point, I see little chance of it getting fixed in the next 9 days. But I think Obama will win anyway.

[SoCalDemocrat]

30. How many people will touch "Obama" ?

Think about it. How many people will try to touch "Obama" then not notice McCain light up briefly? How many elderly, people in a hurry, unobservant people, people who don't understand how voting machines work?

How many does it take to throw a race that is within a few percentage points already?

Not many.

If we make a big enough stink we might succeed in getting the machines replaced with paper ballot systems? We might get the buttons moved further apart? We should at least try.

[stolivodka]

34. Go ahead, bury your head in the sand.

It'll make everything better. :sarcasm:

[Frank Booth]

52. You know, there's not much difference between burying your head in the sand

and futilely griping about something on a message board.

Here's another thing: Why is it that there seems to be so much self-promotion involved with this voting fraud subject? The main people pushing the story appear to be most interested in making a name for themselves.

[OKNancy]

55. group-think on DU

Everyone one of these " oh no, we are going to lose, stolen elections" threads are
so over the top, it's embarrassing. Rational vigilance "yes".. crazy-bull-shit "no thanks"

When we win big on Nov 4th, hopefully most will calm down and go back to the elections forum that Skinner made for them

[SoCalDemocrat]

75. I think we all want a fair election

The last thing I want is publicity or attention drawn to myself. After 2000 and 2004 I have happily disappeared, and will do so again shortly after 2008. Right now it is time to fight, and we need to do whatever we can to ensure a fair election.

[vanboggie]

82. Correction - Election fraud

If you're going to comment on the subject, when voting machines are programmed with malicious code, the term is "election fraud". Voter fraud is rare, but is the term thrown around by Rethuglicans to minimize the issue.

[vanboggie]

81. Gore & Kerry won, too

But they didn't make it into office, did they? Now because of HAVA, the cheat machines have been installed all over the nation.

So don't be so confident that nothing will go wrong. Many of the talking heads are already making excuses for supposed Mc* "win".

In the immortal words of the Chimperor, "Fool me once..."

[newburgh]

106. Just like some people wanted Kerry to lose for the same reason?

That and the millions of dollars in a defense fund and an army of lawyers did nothing in that case either.

Any other issue is null and void without the voting machine problems resolved. I believe, from the inaction I've seen already, that Obama will be just as much a wimp about this issue as Kerry. I remember distinctly how so many on DU made excuses why Kerry didn't act and that they believed that the House and Senate would resolve these issues. Nothing of any substance has happened since and here we are again. The Democrats in their inaction are just as much to blame as the Republicans for stealing the elections in 2000 and 2004.

[navarth]

23. KICKING

This is scary indeed

[Awsi Dooger]

24. Obama is going to be behind McCain in ballot order in most states

That's a simple deduction. Many of the states use results from past elections to determine ballot order. I know it's at least 18 or 20 states prefer that simple criteria. Since a Republican is the most recent winner of the presidential election, the Republican goes first and the Democrat behind him in the next presidential vote.

Other states uses different criteria, including lottery. But since 18-20 minimum are mandated to have McCain ahead of Obama, it's safe to assert that will be the case in the majority of states.

BTW, I don't believe in vote switching. I believe in suppression. This is a FYI.

[SoCalDemocrat]

25. This is a ballot design issue

If you watch the Uncounted documentary you might change your view.

In any event this is an issue of ballot design. Votes are not being switched, they are being miscast by ballot design. No malicious software need be involved. Simply put the buttons right next to each other, put the "Obama" label too close to the McCain button, and letting human error do the rest.

[FatDave]

31. Wait a minute....

Are you saying the name of the candidate isn't inside the button? For fuck's sake, there's no fucking excuse for that. I hate these fuckers with every fiber of my being. It takes no effort to make a ballot, whether traditional or touchscreen, easy to understand. It takes more effort to obfuscate than it does to be clear. Fuck these scumbag sons of bitches. Fuck every last fucking one of them.

[SoCalDemocrat]

51. Imagine a clear transparency

Imagine you have a clear piece of transparency plastic. You use a magic marker to draw rectangle outlines for your buttons, then you lay that over the top of the voting screen where the actual voter choices are. The transparency would represent the sensitive areas that are tied to the touch screen choices. If the programmer, or whomever "calibrated" the transparency boxes made them too big or too close together or registered them to be a wee bit too low ...

[EFerrari]

37. No belief is required. It's been shown to be objectively true

All those voters in four states can't be conspiring to lie to you. :)

[Life Long Dem]

38. And what will drive me over the edge.

[Stevepol]

39. ES&S is not Diebold. Diebold has changed its name to Premier. ES&S is crappy

technology without the name Diebold attached.

[demodonkey]

40. ES&S and Diebold were originated by the same guy -- one brother was officer in Diebold, one in ES&S

Look it up -- Bob Urosevitch and his brother Todd.

NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS NEXT WEEK THESE PROBLEMS HAVE TO BE CORRECTED. Voter-verified paper ballots, marked by the voter and hand-audited.

[2QT2BSTR8]

84. I started to early vote on a damn Premier machine on Saturday..after the election staff advised

After the election staff advised everyone, that the machine were in no way affiliated with Diebold. We asked if there was a paper trail to which I was advised no. No receipt of any sort. I wound up voting on a paper ballot.
Irving, TX in Dallas county.

[Celebrandil]

42. Possible reason for switching votes

After seeing a WV voting machine demonstrated on CNN, I think the reason why a press on Obama sometimes results in a vote for McCain comes from the fact that the touch sensitive surface layer is positioned in-front-of the screen on which graphics are displayed. The voter approaches the voting machine, fixates on the button he likes to press and aims for the button with his finger. What controls his action is the graphics, not the transparent touch sensitive layer. This means that the finger reaches the surface a little earlier than anticipated. However, since the distance between the two layers is so small, the voter might not at all notice the difference. What becomes a problem, however, is the positioning of the finger. If the voter is watching the screen from above (standing very close to the machine or if the voter is tall), the recorded pressure point will be slightly above the point the voter actually aimed for. Thus if the buttons are as narrow as those demonstrated on CNN, a vote for Obama might turn into one for McCain.

I've talked to three different manufacturers of touch screens and they all confirm that the touch sensitive layer does not usually coincide with the layer on which graphics are drawn, more so on older touch screens. What they recommended was having button wide enough for such problems not to appear.

[dailykoff]

130. Oh please.

This is incompetence by design, just like all their other "mistakes."

[TragedyandHope]

44. Thank you for the post

We have an ongoing thread trying to collect all these reports in one place here:

Official Vote Flipping Reports Thread

We really need a pinned thread for this important subject, so these reports can stay visible above some of the less pressing noise and gossip.

[elleng]

110. Tragedyand,

fine idea. What will you do with the 'reports?'

This thread is particularly useful, imo, because of the technical analysis provoded by some.

[alcibiades_mystery]

45. Defeatist bullshit

[vanboggie]

83. Reality n/t

[babsbunny]

46. if you all keep saying this will happen, it will!

Please think about the outcome you would prefer.

[moriah]

48. Touchscreens would be fine IF....

.... they had a paper receipt for an audit trail.

It could be easily done, would not cost much money, and would be very helpful in cases of recounts.

I work with computers. I know they have flaws. If they didn't have flaws, I wouldn't have a job. I get paid pretty well to fix those flaws, be them in hardware or software. If the flaws were just minor, I wouldn't get paid as well as I do.

If a self-checkout machine can have a printed receipt, so can a voting machine. If an ATM can have a printed receipt, so can a voting machine. People who've worked retail or worked in banks know that yes, sometimes the printer jams, and sometimes you have to reload it. And if you've worked retail, you know it's not that difficult to do.

I've worked with a lot of touchscreens over the years. Yes, there can be calibration errors. Good testing at the beginning of each day, recalibrating the machine and verifying that it is working correctly, would help prevent those errors.

There are ways to fix the problem without scrapping touchscreens entirely. But what disturbs me is that people were so willing to scrap paper entirely -- if you've worked in retail, you know as well as I do that they generate reams of paper each day and SAVE IT. There's a reason they do.

... just my opinion.

[paparush]

133. True That!! The paper trail is essential.

ALL of the votes Could be registered correctly. You vote for Obama, and the machine tells you that your vote for Obama is confirmed. YAY!

BUT---

Who's to say that the machines are not programmed to change votes internally? How would we know?

OR --

What if the machine isn't flipping votes internally, but simply updates the Precint database? What if the machine is totally clean?

Who's to say someone is not changing the numbers in the database itself? Can any precinct guarantee that bi-partisan poll workers will ALWAYS be present and constantly monitoring the numbers? Can any Precent guarantee that NO ONE has external access to the database (think Cisco VPN into a county server)?



Without a true and verifiable paper trail, any and/or all of these scenarios is possible.

[Abugface]

49. Don't worry, be happy ...

That's what the Freepers hiding over here are posting and that's how they want you to feel. The Obama campaign has said over and over don't become complacent and be vigilant. You can listen to the Obama campaign about complacency, and you can educate yourself about this REAL problem, or you can follow the Freeper message and that of those posters basking in their own naivete and "don't worry, be happy".

Only a fool would believe that the Repugs aren't masters at stealing elections and that they are not going all out to steal this one.

[SoCalDemocrat]

53. Contact CNN at http://www.cnn.com/feedback/

This is what I sent to CNN via their tips at http://www.cnn.com/feedback/
Please send them your thoughts, as well as the other outlets.

The ballots have been designed for ES&S machines such that whomever is listed for President first on the ballot is going to erroneously receive votes from the candidate listed 2nd. This is evidenced in early voting in more than a dozen states. Where Obama is first, McCain voters are clicking on the text "McCain" and the button lights up for Obama. In most states McCain is listed first, so the Obama votes get erroneously cast for him.

The reason this happens is the close proximity of the two buttons. The touch screen hit boxes have little margin for error in such cases. Also the ballot designs I've seen on these screens place the text of the Presidential candidate in small font along the top left of the button. Voters not understanding the technical underpinnings of touch screen software would try and press their candidates name, and trigger the error. The wrong candidates name will visually light up briefly, offering the only indication a problem has occurred.

______________________
McCain


______________________
Obama


______________________

Take your fat finger and try to push on "Obama" above; in a number of cases you will light up McCain.

Please investigate and report on this issue. The buttons should be spaced further apart and the candidates names should be CENTERED in the middle of the button to eliminate this error. Either that or they need to be pulled and replaced with paper ballots.

[windoe]

54. Ok and even if Obama wins, without a legitimate system, McCain can contest the results!!!

THe whole system is flawed, and we are just strolling into this election as if it is going to work on some miracle. We know it is not working.

[Splinter Cell]

56. In my district.....

We have electronic voting, but the machines have a paper trail. There is a little plastic window and when you are done voting it prints your choices onto a roll of paper and you have to confirm it before the ballot is cast.

If they would just add this to all electronic voting machines then this crap about changing numbers and fucking with the program wouldn't work for the bastards.

[dansolo]

57. This could be a calibration problem

With glass touch screens, there is an issue called parallax. If the person calibrating the screen is a significantly different height than the voter, then the button press may be skewed higher or lower. Before this clip, I didn't realize that the selection areas were so small and right next to each other.

I develop software and have had to work with touchscreens, and I would guess that this problem is more likely a result of poor design than of intentional vote switching. There should be federal guidelines than limits the minimum size and proximity of the buttons on the voting touch screens. Perhaps this could actually be the basis for an ADA lawsuit, since it clearly hinders voters with poor eyesight or those who may have difficulty hitting precise spots on the touchscreens.

[SoCalDemocrat]

77. I've also developed touch screen control applications

It is very easy to try and press one button and have the button immediately above the line (or below) be triggered when you are pressing near the edges. I think if they changed the size of the font and put the labels in the center it would help somewhat, but I don't know why anyone would design the buttons to be so close together in the first place.

[senseandsensibility]

58. Kick

:kick: This is the most important thread on DU right now. It should have thousands of replies.

[dana_b]

59. I wrote to the usual suspects

and will do it twice a day until someone covers this. It is being stolen right before our eyes and I can't take it anymore. None of us can. Why isn't the Obama campaign screaming about this??

[Fly by night]

60. The Decatur Co TN "votes flipped to Obama" story that you refer to is bullshit.

See this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=509810&mesg_id=509810

BTW, we've now had similar reports (once again from local Republican Party officers) in two more TN counties. They seem to all be responding to a message sent out from the TN Republican Party earlier this week, encouraging people to watch for problems and citing the Decatur Co. (non)story.

Please read this thread and help me de-bunk this story. Thanks.

[SoCalDemocrat]

71. read your story

I read and bumped your story. I did find that the original article pointed out the flaw with accidentally triggering the vote above the one you were trying to cast. Still trying to find out if Obama is listed above McCain in that precinct or not. If he is not, I'd say it is near certain these three "voters" are lying.

[Triana]

62. MEDIA

MEDIA

Phone Numbers:
CNN-
(404) 827 – 1500
Comment line: (404) 827 - 0234
(From grasswire
CNN NEWS CHIEF Eason Jordan. 404.827.5111. fax: [phone]. [e-mail]
CNN NEWS DIRECTOR Kim Bondy. 404 827 1500. fax. [phone]
CNN NEWSROOM 404.827.1500 . 404.827.1500. [e-mail]
Call Anderson Cooper at 1-866-NY-AC360

Everyone at CNN is listed individually on this page: http://www.cnn.com/feedback/cnntv /




MSNBC
- Phone: [phone] EMAIL: [e-mail]


CBS
-Phone: [phone]

ABC-
ABC NEW YORK NEWSROOM: [phone] [e-mail] Newsroom Fax Machine 212.456.5150

Peter Salinger (THE MAN IN CHARGE OF ELECTION COVERAGE) Director, Special Events & Sports 212.456.5105 [e-mail]

Cristi Landes, Manager, Programming 212.456.5107 [e-mail]

Wayne Fisk Director, Programming 212.456.5327 [e-mail]

Jeff Fitzgerald Executive Director, Operations 212.456.5554 [e-mail]

Heidi Oringer Executive Director, Entertainment 212.456.5541 [e-mail]

Jon Newman News Coverage 212.456.5100 [e-mail]

Joyce Alcantara Assignment Manager 212.456.5106 [e-mail]

Jim Kane Deputy D.C. Bureau Chief 212.222. 6604 [e-mail]

Andrew Kalb Executive Director, Programming 05.567.2269 [e-mail]

Robert Garcia Executive Director, News & Sports 212.456.5103 [e-mail]



C-SPAN
Contacting C-SPAN's Washington Journal:
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NEW YORK TIMES NEWS DEPARTMENT
To send comments and suggestions (about news coverage only) or to report errors that call for correction, e-mail [e-mail] or leave a message at 1-888-NYT-NEWS. To contact a reporter, click on the byline of one of his or her articles to access the reader e-mail form. You can also find any reporter's archive here (alphabetized by last name; reporters' names are italicized): Times Topics: People – http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/peo ...

The Editors
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1-888-369-4762 general number

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EMAILS FOR FOX [e-mail] , [e-mail] , [e-mail] , [e-mail] , [e-mail] , [e-mail] , [e-mail] , [e-mail]

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PERTINENT EMAIL ADDRESSES:
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[SoCalDemocrat]

63. ES&S is not Diebold

Minor correction.

[Overseas]

66. Steal Back Your Vote dot com

has lots of emergency info on how to do our best to be sure our votes are counted.

YES I hope we all continue past election day to get the electronic voting machines TOSSED OUT.

We need paper trails and random audits and independent exit polls to keep watch on election integrity.

We looked away and things were corrupted.

Too many moderate Democrats told those who complained that we were exaggerating. That it was ridiculous to think Republicans would manipulate the voting machinery.

More and more evidence is out and has been examined so that more people understand that it has happened.

But it is a messy issue people won't want to take up. Especially if Obama wins. Just like our getting a teeny tiny majority in Congress in 2006 was supposed to show us things were okay now. Sorry but that is not so. We would have gotten more seats in 2006, had things been really fair.

www.stealingamericathemovie.com for the calm, comprehensive documentary "Stealing America: Vote by Vote."

[SoCalDemocrat]

69. I'll check out that documentary

I also thought Uncounted was an excellent documentary and I recommend it to everyone.

[Pooka Fey]

67. K&R

[Herman74]

68. Just Bring a Cell-Phone Camera & a Baseball Bat with you into the voting booth...

The cell phone to take a photograph of the switched vote, and the baseball bat to (well you know what to do with that) }(

[debbierlus]

73. Where are Obama's lawyers on this one?

[SoCalDemocrat]

76. How would we contact them?

I tried sending an email but I have no idea where they are with respect to challenging the touch screen voting accuracy. You would think they could get a court order to pull a few machines at random to run results through repeatedly to see if the same results ensue each time, and to try and repeat these varied anomalies being reported across the country.

[newburgh]

107. They're with Kerry's lawyers divying up the pot.

If "we" need to contact them about the problems already happening then they're worthless.

[Zorra]

74. If I had to vote on one of these machines, I'd be tempted to get blind drunk

before I went to vote (of course, I'd have a designated driver)and would stumble into the machine, knocking it to the floor, and then would accidentally stomp it into oblivion as I tried to regain my balance.

Is there a law against drunk voting?
;-)

[Child_Of_Isis]

78. My mom said CNN is covering it.

I just talked to her a few minutes ago.

[elleng]

86. I've sent many stories to [e-mail]

Is anyone aware that they or Dems are taking any action on this critical issue?

[FourScore]

89. That's the most troubling part to me.

The Democrats are going to let it happen to them again. And the talking heads will blame it on voter error, or rascism in the booth, or some other cockamaimie story.

If we factor in McCain's slipping health, do you realize we may REALLY have Sarah Palin for President within a few months???

Oh shit.

:scared:

[elleng]

93. I'm with you, where.

Read somewhere that repugs demanded removal of 'bad' machines some time ago ('06?) when such happened to them.

[zogtheobvious]

87. I'm sorry to be juvenile, but...

I'm sorry for being juvenile, but I can't help it... after watching the video... "My finger is DEFINITELY on Barack Obama's box."

*Cue Beavis and Butthead type laughter*

[Ms. Toad]

90. Every touch screen provides at least one chance to

verify that your ballot is correct. USE IT! If you don't notice the wrong candidate lights up at the time you are making the selection, you should notice it at the end of the ballot when your selections are displayed for verification. Check to see that everything is recorded correctly - and if it is not, fix it.

No point in getting all hyper and demanding that machines be taken out of service because it initially does not record your selection correctly. Try again - touch a little higher (or lower). Now - if you can't get the problem fixed through retouching the selection screen, or going back into it from the review screen, then the machine needs to be taken out of service.

In addition to the on screen review, some touch screens provide a printed version for review. Again - USE IT! Don't count on the machine having accurately recorded your initial touch correctly - check it.

All taking machines out of service because the initial selection display doesn't match with your touch will accomplish is longer lines on voting day, people getting discouraged - and potentially going home without voting. That's like demanding that an ATM be taken out of service when you told it you wanted to withdraw $100, it showed you it recorded your request as $200, and you didn't bother to notice and change your selection back to $100.

[SoCalDemocrat]

95. Even that might not verify accuracy

Bev Harris wrote me and said she has reports of one precinct where after selecting all your votes, including Obama, when you hit the arrow to go to the next screen the Obama vote was either deselected or switched as the screen changed over.

[Ms. Toad]

98. My point is that on every machine,

there is at least one opportunity to check after that.

The entire set of your all your selections is displayed before you press the cast vote button. Use that opportunity to verify that your selections are accurately identified. If they are not, go back and fix them (and verify them again before you press the cast vote button).

Just because the response to your touch shows that it "believes" you made a different selection than you intended - or you see it deselected or switched as the screen changes over - you still have the opportunity to change any marks you have made up (whether to change your mind or to correct selections not properly identified by the machine) until you press the cast vote button. Demanding that the machine be taken out of service earlier than the final review when you cannot fix your selections will only result in fewer machines, longer lines, and disenfranchised voters.

Everyone should have enough common sense to actually review the entire ballot before pressing cast vote to make sure it accurately reflects their intentions - particularly anyone who is concerned about machines not accurately recording votes.

[bkkyosemite]

99. Then after you vote and the close of the day comes software has in the past been manipulated to take

a percentage of the Dem votes and flip them. Then the software command is timed to delete itself and no one is the wiser that that vote has been flipped. It can be done according to a Republican IT guy in my post much lower. He said the 00, 02 and the 04 were stolen. Only paper ballots with witnessed hand counting is the way to vote accurately. The same machines are being used today.

[Ms. Toad]

104. If they are rigged in a way that can't be detected,

then you wouldn't be able to detect or fix the problem by demanding that a machine making a visible "switch" be taken out of service. That is the issue I am addressing: the suggestion that people demand machines be taken out of service for what is fairly obviously a calibration issue. (Any self-respecting hacker who is trying to rig elections is not going to do it in a manner which is so obviously visible.)

All touch screens have multiple means by which you can compensate for calibration errors - look and see what the machine "thinks" you touched, and try again if what you see doesn't match your intent. Check it again when the final ballot is presented before you press the cast vote button. If it is still wrong (or wrong for the first time), fix it again, and again. If it is repeatedly correct on the selection screen and incorrect on the review screen, then the machine needs to be taken out of service (even if it creates longer lines for the remaining machines). Before that point, for the problem I am addressing, people just need to pay attention and make sure what the ballot they are casting contains the candidates and issues they intended to vote for.

There were precincts in Ohio in which voters were still casting ballots around 3 am in 2004. Taking out machines because of poor calibration will just make that problem worse.

[Lerrad]

91. Now wait a second...

... If I were going to steel an election:

When some one pressed the machine for Obama, I would make sure that the machine registered for Obama. But inside the thing it would count for McCain.

Simple as that.

[SoCalDemocrat]

96. There are a lot of potential ways to steal votes

The one I hilighted in this thread is one of the most innocuous and easily explained away as voter error or an unintentionally poor ballot design (playing Devils advocate).

Certainly there are many things you can do via software to steal votes when you have no audit trails. I and many others feel 2000 and 2004 were not above board, and it is likely we will have multiple issues in 2008.

If you google back over 2000 and 2004 you will find instances where voting machines in highly Democratic precints actually started counting backwards! These are verified incidents.

[Dumak]

92. From what I have seen, these screens have the candidate's

name right near the top of the associated active box. And the actives boxes are right next to each other with little or no inactive space between them. So, someone who isn't computer savvy might be inclined to put their finger directly over the name, even though it means their fingernail is going to touch the edge of the box above.

[bkkyosemite]

94. This is the guy that is a Republican and what he says still holds true today. We must not let

this happen!!!

*Interviewer:
What, their systems can't be hacked?


Spoonamore:
There is no system, electronic, in the world that cannot be hacked. I've spent my entire life building or hacking electronic systems. … There is no system in the world -- none -- that cannot be hacked. … End of discussion.


Interviewer:
Then how do you secure such a piece of equipment then?


Spoonamore:
You don't. You use paper ballots. I can't make it any clearer than this. You cannot have secure electronic voting. It doesn't exist. … You must have paper ballots.

Spoon continues: "There are people out there -- and there is a lot of them -- who don't really want to win elections. What they want to do is they want to steal them. … I don't want to have a society where we're not sure who won. I want to live in a democracy where there is a valid capacity to audit the entire trail."

Well said, Mr. Spoonamore.

Segment seven:


"I think they are brilliantly designed. They're designed to steal elections. … There are back doors in the tabulations machines, which is what the US-CERT warning is about. There's a backdoor communication that allows secondary computers to talk to the actual tabulators electronically from a distance." Spoon goes on to describe some of the technical details of electronic voting machine election fraud.

And lastly, segment eight:
*********
Spoonamore:
I'm a Republican. I'm a Republican, I worked on Giuliani's campaign, I worked on Bloomberg's campaign, I worked on John McCain's campaign. I've been a life-long member of the party. This is not a Democrat/Republican issue. This is not a partisan issue. This is a democracy issue. If you actually care about a constitutional democracy in which each person votes, that vote is validated, and the people who end up in office are reflected on the basis of the way people voted, you care about this issue.

If you don't want people to vote, if you don't want people's vote to count, and you want to rule without owning it by a mandate, then you are very supportive of Diebold.

Relative to this statement from Mr. Spoonamore, please watch this youtube clip of Paul Weyrich, co-founder of the Heritage Foundation and the Moral Majority, talking about voting:


That's a rare and candid admission of a still on-going strategy to prevent Americans from registering and/or voting.

The interview continues:

Interviewer:
I mean, who's stealing the votes? If what you say is true, who wants to steal the elections?


Spoonamore:
I certainly know that in all the statistical information, it seems that in every single bizarre circumstance where exit data, polling data, or informational data swings, it has all been in favor of Republicans. But not the sort of Republicans who I want to see in office at all. These are people who lie and people who cheat. That is not the conservative way. Conservatives conserve things. We are respectful and we are constitutionally based.

You know what the real problem is? People do not want to believe that people want to steal elections in this country. I've done extensive work over the years for voting monitoring overseas. If we had a variance in the exit polling of even 2% from what actually was tabulated -- which is exactly how the Orange Revolution came about in Ukraine -- we would be in there explaining to people something is wrong.

We have had numerous elections in this country now in which -- where you use Diebold Election System machines -- that what happens with the vote is way off, five, ten, as much as twelve percent from the exit polling and the actual survey. These statistical numbers are impossible.

And the problem is Americans do not want to believe that we have people stealing our elections. And they must come to the realization there are people in this country who want to steal elections, and we must stop them.

If you've read this far, you clearly care about this issue. Please, we implore all Americans to contact their state's secretary of state, their House representative, and their Senators and DEMAND they ban the use of electronic voting machines. Demand that all elections in the United States be conducted:

1) with a hand-marked paper ballot for every vote;


2) the ballots counted publicly and transparently at each precinct;

3) citizens allowed by law to observe the ballots being counted;

4) precinct results posted publicly before being sent to the central tabulator.

© 2008 Velvet Revolution All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/94895/


********************* http://www.bushstole04.com/Presidential%20Election-2008/voting_machines_trusted.htm

[Alhena]

97. I am so freaking sick of these posts

[BradBlog]

100. Overlapping candidates on the screen seems to have little do with it.

As you'll see in this report:
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6540
...A vote for Obama on a touch-screen in Nashville, became a vote for Cynthia McKinney who was FIVE ROWS AWAY FROM OBAMA on the touch screen.

Furthermore, it's a fact that it's strictly impossible to verify that any vote, ever cast on a DRE (usually a touch-screen) during an election has been recorded accurately as per the voters intent. A paper trail, as some of them have, means absolutely nothing, as demonstrated in this UCSB video:
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6369

[bkkyosemite]

101. This is a guy who help to fraud the election by jamming phones on DU home page.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw4zUWzqVlc

Posted on YouTube: October 25, 2008
By YouTube Member: TULLYCAST2
Views on YouTube: 49028

Posted on DU: October 26, 2008
By DU Member: seemslikeadream
Views on DU: 129

[ThatsMyBarack]

102. When *I* voted on a touch-screen ballot two weeks ago...

It was easy because:

1. We had OBAMA/BIDEN on the TOP!

2. There were boxes by the names, which are a lot easier to see than a lot of lines mushed together. Hope that makes sense.

:patriot:

[Leeny]

103. Maybe it's time to get rid of the secret ballot

We should sign our ballots and copy them before turning them in. I'd sign a sworn affidavit if I had to. I don't care who know who I voted for.

A young woman, 19 years old, who I've been talking to and encouraging to register finally went and did try to register. There was a table outside the Secretary of State's office where they were registering voters. My friend said that the guy took her registration card and told her that she was 5 minutes too late. I thought that sounded bogus, but then she told me that he was wearing a McCain t-shirt and was giving her a look -- she was wearing an Obama t-shirt. I asked her for more specifics, she said that it was very crowded around the table and the guy came around the side of the crowd and offered to take her card. I can guarantee you he wasn't working for the Secretary of State. They're not only going to steal the vote, but steal the registrations.

We need to do something!!:grr: :mad:

[althecat]

105. TAKE ACTION: Help out with this petition to media - We Do Not Consent To Unprovable Elections

http://usacoup.scoop.co.nz/unprovable

Current Signatories 27 October 10am (NZT): Dave Berman - Mark Crispin Miller - Alastair Thompson - Peter B. Collins - Michael Collins - Ernest Partridge - Bernard Weiner - Rob Kall - David Swanson - Rady Ananda - Lynn Landes - Dan Ashby - Linda Milazzo - Jan Baumgartner - Cheryl Biren-Wright - Amanda Lang - Joanne Lukacher - Andi Novick - Paul Lehto - Mark A. Adams - Catherine Austin Fitts - John Gideon - Ellen Theisen - Bev Harris - John Chuckman - Bernie Ellis


And kick the thread on this at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7604143

[IndianaGreen]

108. Why did the local Dems accept the touch screen machines?

Were they bought off by the vendor, or are they just plain stupid?

Our Dems rejected the touch screen machines because they were unreliable. We use the scanners with a paper audit trail to boot.

[MasonJar]

109. I hope we are not cheated again, but whatever the result we must

insist on paper trail and we must protest if Obama does not win. We FAILED Al Gore; he stood up, but we did not. We let those snotty nosed GOPers go to Florida and intimidate and steal the race. Ditto Kerry in '04. We must not let that happen again on any level. We must vote in enormous numbers. That will perhaps save Obama, but will not save closer races in the Congress. Chambliss will steal this one like he did the '02. These machines MUST go. I intend to be ruthless in my insistence to Congress. ENOUGH is ENOUGH>

[BradBlog]

113. No, you must...

whatever the result we must insist on paper trail

NO, you must insist on a paper BALLOT, hand-marked! A paper "trail" is meaningless.

[bkkyosemite]

115. Brad have those attorney's showed yet?

[dmr]

111. Kick

[bobd0]

116. K&R -- At this point, with easily manipulated machines and software in place I don't know

that we can stop another election nightmare at the polls but I know we can't just accept another stolen election. Eight years to fix a broken electoral system yet we are still allowing our votes to be counted by machines with NO PAPER TRAIL AND NO AUDIT CAPABILITIES. I can go the the fucking supermarket or ATM and get an accurate record of EVERY TRANSACTION BUT I CAN'T GO TO MY POLLING PLACE AND HAVE AN ACCURATE RECORD OF THE MOST IMPORTANT RIGHT I EXERCISE IN THIS SO-CALLED DEMOCRACY -- MY RIGHT TO VOTE? WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?

There are other consequences we must also consider. This election should by all indications be a landslide for the Democratic Party. But even if the election isn't stolen outright, just flipping enough votes to keep one or both houses of congress close is the next best thing to a McCain win for the Republican party in the long run.

IF THIS ELECTION IS A LANDSLIDE, AS IT SHOULD BE, THE VERY FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS MUST BE A COMPLETE REVAMPING OF THE ELECTORAL SYSTEM. TOTAL TRANSPARENT VOTING REFORM WITH AN INDEPENDENT ELECTION COMMISSION AND A SYSTEM THAT RECORDS EACH VOTE IN A MANNER THAT IS VERIFIABLE WITH REDUNDANT SAFEGUARDS WITH PENALTIES IN PLACE THAT ARE SO SEVERE THEY WILL STOP ANYONE FROM EVEN CONSIDERING PERPETRATING ELECTION FRAUD.

I'll email and call every news outlet in the USA but after 2000 and 2004 I really don't believe it will make a difference. People, I hate to say this but we better be ready for any eventuality and we better ready to mobilize fast. Every four years it's the same bullshit and every four years we just sit on our hands, we write letters to the editor, we email the corrupt corporate owned MSM, we call our representatives, we complain on internet forums. IF THIS ELECTION IS STOLEN WE MUST BE READY TO ENGAGE IN CIVIL UNREST AND CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE THAT WILL SHUT THIS COUNTRY DOWN. Are Americans ready for that?

Look around. Do you think there are enough Americans left with the stomach for such action? We've become a fat, lazy nation of consumers -- little more than cattle being fed and milked. Even if there are enough of us to make a difference our government has the means to control any civil unrest in moments. Patriot Act. Military Commissions Act. Homeland Security. Habeas Corpus suspended. Posse Comitatus violated. Bill of Rights in tatters.

HAVE WE DONE ANYTHING TO THIS POINT AS OUR RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES HAVE BEEN ERODED AND STOLEN ONE BY ONE?

There might be a few instances of genuine outrage but even if there are American cities will rapidly become a series of our own Tienanmen Squares. Are Americans ready to face that prospect to preserve what little is left of this so-called democracy? I am sorry but I have very little faith in the American people to stand up to anyone or for anything. Our best hope is that we vote in numbers that are so overwhelming as to make this election irreversible -- even as we have silently acquiesced to the use of the same system that has already successfully been used to steal the previous two elections.

I hope we're all just a bunch of paranoid conspiratorialists and this election is an even larger landslide than we expect because I really don't believe the American people have enough balls left to do anything about it if isn't. If the American people of 2008 were entrusted with starting The American Revolution we'd all be singing "God Save the Queen".

[elleng]

117. Different but the same:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x226525

[wilsonva]

120. Why can't these fuckers just bulid a working machine?!

Why can't they make huge fat buttons that people can't "accidently roll their fingers up"?

This is STUPID!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

122. Why can't they just use paper ballots?

So what if it takes 24 hours to learn the results?

We waited over a month in 2000.

[Quantess]

141. Paper ballots work just great.

Oregon's vote by mail system has been a big success, and voters like it. I don't know why every state doesn't have vote by mail.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

146. I know; I was skeptical of it at first (I lived there 1984-2003)

but when I did GOTV in 2002, all I had to do was remind people about the pickup point nearest them.

I like to think that the Portland votes I rousted (like the woman who thought the deadline was midnight, not 8PM) were instrumental in denying Kevin Mannix the governorship, because it was neck and neck till all the Portland votes came in. :-)

[Quantess]

147. Ha! Good work.

Kevin Mannix keeps running for various offices, but never gets elected. This year, his obsession is with vastly increasing the prison population, but so far the arguments against it are strong: (with what money?).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

148. Increasing the prison population is his obsession

It looks as if maybe the people of Oregon are wising up.

[ellisD]

124. funny how

Diebold has thousands of ATMS throughout the country, which each carry out hundreds of financial transactions every day without losing a cent, and yet they can't make an accurate voting machine? :grr:

[dailykoff]

129. The machines work just the way they want them to.

Don't think ANY of this is "incompetence."

[Mr Hedley Bowes]

121. Demand paper ballots for foks sake! n/t

[Joe Chi Minh]

125. They're finally getting worried about the ocean of damning circumstantial evidence,

now in all of the last three elections, and making a few fake switches to Obama. What cretins! It's like a drop in the drop in the ocean now.

[dailykoff]

128. It might.

I hope it doesn't, but there's really nothing to stop them.

[No Elephants]

131. I just do not believe people who claim that they tried to vote for McCain, but the machine flipped.

[siligut]

132. This is my biggest concern

Palin is associated with the Dominionists as is ES&S. We know McCain barely even knew Sarah Palin prior to selecting her as running mate. I believe it was the religious whackos working behind the scenes that actually made the selection. Who else would truly believe that Palin is VP material?

[barack the house]

137. Very important article. I think this may sometimes happen if the machine has poor ventilation too.

[Essene]

140. PEOPLE MUST STILL GO TO VOTE... chill out with the cynical hyperbole, please

"democracy will die" kind of rhetoric is not needed right now.

People must vote.

It's not a choice between going out to vote and calling attention to this stuff. The emphasis MUST be on getting people out to vote, regardless of our cynicism.

[backscatter712]

142. If the election is stolen, the only way to get me off the streets is in handcuffs.

If that happens, it'll be time to shut down the country.

I mean massive protests, blockades of freeways, disruption in every way it is possible to disrupt the government and disrupt every-day life.

Non-violently, of course.

[JDwho]

144. Tried to rec, but thread is over 24 hrs old. Can we repost this to keep it alive?

We cant let this happen.

[SoCalDemocrat]

153. Any updates?

Anyone able to run with the UTUBE video clip that our fellow DUer made? We need to get that interleaved with the CNN video of the touch screen voting problems, warning people to be careful when they vote and take pictures (or preferably vote paper if they get the choice).

[Overseas]

150. Steal Back Your Vote dot com has emergency info

to help make sure your vote counts.

Of course the GOP will be using lots of election manipulation techniques again. This is not a BRAND NEW STORY-- they've been doing it since 2000 in particular-- so the Obama team has lawyers working on some things.

And more other people are watching, so I expect people to be more patient this time if Obama needs to challenge the numbers.

[bubenberg]

154. History of Democracy

i am posting here because you claim to be a democratic Website, but you have so many rules before you can post, PM, start threads.

Either you are a Democrat and all people are equal,or what you are doing here is NOT democratic, that is cast system, in the oldest democracy you are voting, posting, starting a referendum the minute you are of age no preconditions of age, member longevity are in existence.

My American side of the family has been contributing to this forum for a long time, i felt to test your democratic all inclusive, non discriminatory forum on my own and am rather disgusted with your rules.

Switzerland is the oldest Democracy in the world, just because you change a constitution that had been imposed by Napoleon l does not mean that that it is not the oldest. The Confederation Helvetic, a real Democracy, as a matter of fact when rewriting the Code Napoleonic, the Republican party and the Jesuits were outlawed in the same time frame. The Jesuits are allowed to practice since the 1970 again.