The Rove trolls are telling us that Kerry should not talk about Viet Nam

[TruthIsAll]

Very slick.

Just as the AP is reporting that the most relevant Bush doucuments are missing.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=4&u=/ap/20040905/ap_on_el_pr/bush_national_guard

And just before the guy who was persuaded by Poppy to get the unqualified Bush into TANG (in front of 150 who had qualified) is going on 60 Minutes next Sunday.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/09/04/MNGS78JRT41.DTL

Bush deserted and hired the Swift-boat liars.

CARVILLE BETTER GET MOVING ON THIS, ALONG WITH EVERYTHING ELSE.

HEALTH CARE AND JOBS ARE IMPORTANT.

BUT CHARACTER IS ALSO.

LET'S FINALLY PUT BUSH UP AGAINST THE WALL.
WITH THE TRUTH.
ABOUT EVERYTHING.

[amber dog democrat]

1. We can't let them frame the discussions

What are they prepared to do about it? Hire the mafia ?

[dumpster_baby]

12. No, hire the MEDIA

...or whatever is left unhired

[amber dog democrat]

38. I thought the media were

bought and paid for already.
But maybe some of Nixon's old Dirty Tricks squad members are still for hire.

[lancdem]

2. Carville knows what he's doing

I think the point of that N.Y. Times article was more to reassure Dems that Kerry is sharpening his message than to give away strategy. I'm sure there's a lot more going on than what was reported in the article. They don't want to tip off Rove.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

14. Carville brings that "special missing ingredient" to the Kerry campaign

...he KNOWS who Rove is, more importantly WHAT he is, and how to deal with him. And if Carville is on board, Rove WILL be dealt with.

[no name no slogan]

44. Yeah, but he lost his most recent gig

...he was working on the anti-Chavez referendum in Venezuela, where his side lost quite decisively.

Maybe he can turn his luck around with this one...

[blondeatlast]

3. He's EARNED the right, dammit.

I've noticed that, too, that's why I'm using Hide Threads, Alert, and Ignore prodigiously lately.

[BootinUp]

4. Well, Bill Clinton apparently gave that advice

Actually I agree with it, Kerry can have surrogates address the Nam question if necessary. There was another story where Kerry was calling in some old friends that have helped clear up his Vietnam activities before, to help with this effort.

[lancdem]

6. Exactly

Just because Kerry won't talk about it doesn't mean his surrogates can't, or the media won't. That's ingenious, I think.

[liveoaktx]

13. I think someone HAS to-too important an opportunity to squander

Bush's records were not adequately questioned and are still not, and unless someone in Kerry's campaign makes it just as much of a back-at-ya issue, he'll get away with being AWOL again.

[lancdem]

17. It won't be squandered

[bushwakker]

18. John Kerry must ask the questions HIMSELF

or Bush will skate way with it. The media will cover it like flies on shit if JK call out Bush personally. Sure there will be the "he's desperate" stuff - but Bush will have to answer the questions and then THEY will be reacting not attacking. Have you ever seen a press conference or the like where a Bush flack is asked about his Guard years? They are completely flummoxed and the spin is ridiculous. It's because they have no answers and the truth will kill him. We need to get the reacting to this stuff because it makes them look real bad. This ain't dirty pool - this is a search for the truth about the president.

[lancdem]

19. I don't know that I agree

Clinton didn't win in '92 by engaging in trench warfare with the Bushies - he focused on the issues people cared about while Carville, Begala and others did that. If you have surrogates who effectively do it, you don't have to.

[bushwakker]

25. Totally different media environment

Gotta tell you - the media was on Clinton's side in 1992. The electronic media will not really go after this story until the candidate himself raises the question. I don't think it's as much a risk as others do. I think most folks will not begrudge Kerry asking some questions about Bush's whereabouts during this era after the extensive discussion we've just had about what JK was doing.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BootinUp]

31. He has discussed both his

Service record and his anti-war activities in interviews more than once. If he gets asked about it, he should not be afraid to answer. But I don't think he should use his campaigning stump speeches on it at this point.

[amber dog democrat]

41. There is nothing to clear up.

"we want a leader that isn't afraid to stand up to his detractors?"

If so, then we don't want the Chimp. He won't campaign in front of people that are not screened first.
As for the "fuzziness", The Navy backs up is combat reports. I see no fuzziness.
I do see huge ammounts of info missing from the Chimps TANG records.
Kerry is not hiding, That is something the Chimp does.
Kerry does not have to do anything regarding his war record.
Why is this an issue ?

[unfrigginreal]

47. You mean like the lying scumbag coward Bush not hiding behind...

the swift boat liars? Of course he can't help it...most Republicans are lying scumbag cowards.

[Sparkly]

5. Fine, then let's talk about Chimp having a history of cover-ups

and being a phony.

The cover-up of his AWOL is only one example of it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

7. Is Bill Clinton a 'Rove Troll?'

:shrug:

[goclark]

11. What the hell does that mean?

Are you trying to imply that Bill Clinton works for Bush?
Or are you trying to say that he understands the way Rove's mind works?

I get very upset when anyone doesn't make themselves clear about My Bill. He is the Godfather of the Democratic Party and he would never do anything that would help Bush win!!

[lancdem]

16. The poster was asking the person who started the thread

that question.

[jonnyblitz]

20. It was Clinton who suggested he stop talking about Vietnam

according to an article in today's NY times also the main feature on the Drudge Report.

[Freddie Stubbs]

21. Clinton told Kerry not to talk about Vietnem

Kerry told to drop VietnamWashington - Ex-president Bill Clinton spent 90 minutes from his hospital bed awaiting a heart bypass operation advising Democratic presidential contender John Kerry how to rejuvenate his campaign, US media reported on Monday.

Eight weeks from the November 2 vote, Kerry has also taken on more Clinton advisors in a bid to strengthen his battle against President George W Bush who has taken a major lead in some opinion polls, reports said.

Clinton told Kerry that he should move away from talking about his Vietnam war record to establish his national security credentials and instead attack Bush on job creation and health care, the New York Times quoted officials who knew about the conversation as saying.

more: http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1584630,00.html

The orignal poster implied that those telling Kerry to stop talking about Vietnem were working for Rove. I asked if that included Clinton, since he has offeded that advice.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. What did the reporter have a wiretap on the phone?

I'm sorry but simply being published in the NYTimes is not a sufficient reason for me to believe a third- or fourth-hand characterization of a private phone conversation.

[Freddie Stubbs]

26. I am sure that if it is untrue

Mr. Clinton will deny it when he recovers.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

27. I'm sure the first thing he will ask when he awakes will be

while I was in surgery, did the NYTimes mischaracterize any private phone calls I had?

And I'm POSITIVE the Times will be eager to give him a forum to correct any false impressions they gave... :eyes:

[Freddie Stubbs]

57. He has a well staffed office to look out for his interests

You can bet that they will make him aware of this when he is up and around.

Every time Clinton sneezes it makes it into the press, so if he chooses to correct the Times' story it will get out.

[TruthIsAll]

54. Don't be ridiculous.His advice was probably taken out of context..

and should NEVER have been leaked to the media in the first place.
It's another media ploy (see CNN) to manipulate and demoralize Kerry voters. The media is trying to imply the Kerry campaign is in disarray.

THEY ARE FEARFUL THAT HE WILL HIT BUSH WITH THE TRUTH WHICH COULD BE QUITE FATAL; DESERTION IS A MAJOR ISSUE, DAMMIT.

IT'S TIME THAT THE WHOLE TRUTH ABOUT THIS DECADE-LONG COVERUP BE EXPOSED. ESPECIALLY AFTER THOSE BUSH/ROVE INSPIRED SWIFT BOAT LIES.

SHOW THEM NO MERCY.

[stellanoir]

8. I think this repression would be so wrong.

Contrary to popular belief. . .

The parallels between how Kerry served our government in Vietnam and how, when he became aware of atrocities he spoke out against them back then, and how more recently, he voted to give * the authorization to use force, and when he saw * abusing that use of force, he voted against the further funding of the endeavor without restraint, shows consistency in character.

Believing in something and having the wisdom to recognize when it is going wrongly is not a character flaw.

It's the mark of competant leadership.

[clydefrand]

10. Absolutely! Anyone who can't see his own errors and

rectify them shouldn't be leading us. We don't need a fool who can't think of one mistake he's made.

[randr]

9. Every discussion they bring up and attempt to frame

is one more deflection from an issue they know will hurt *.
They are masters at identifying issues that will hurt them and casting them out as attacks against the opposition first, whether they are true or not. As long as the first volley is aimed at the opponent, the mud sticks where it is fired.
The real mission of the Kerry people is to watch closely the hidden message and to respond immediately in kind.
For instance, the idea that Kerry is a flip flopper obviously comes from the fears the * team has of being called on the many many times they have contradicted themselves. They continue to flip flop--"war on terror can not be won"/"we are winning the war on terror"--to the degree that no ones associates the maneuver to * since it has been publicly attributed to Kerry.

[bushwakker]

15. There is a Pandora's Box waiting to be opened...

and it starts by getting the cablenets to focus on Bush's lost Guard years. I think this can be done after the extensive discusiion about what JK was doing this era. The SBL's could be made to backfire on Bush - they started this discussion and we can finish it. Kerry himself has to raise the issue in a serious and sober way.

[kentuck]

22. What they are really saying :

We shouldn't talk about Viet Nam or the National Guard.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

24. They don't want people to compare Kerry and Bush.

Because if they do, Bush will lose.

[unfrigginreal]

28. I'm hoping that it's just a ruse to throw the pukes off

As far as the Vietnam War and Bush's service, Kerry should let surrogates make the case but the case should be made. I don't want to see Kerry shying away from Iraq though. Bush needs to be hit and hit hard on his bumbling preemptive war and how it set us back in the WOT. It's fine to push Health Care and Jobs but as you say character will be most important in this election and we're not going to put a chink in Bush's armour by running away from his strengths.

[Awsi Dooger]

29. Should we trust Bill Clinton on strategy to win the presidency?

Gee, tough call

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BootinUp]

33. somehow

I find it harder to trust you than the Big Dawg. :eyes:

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[amber dog democrat]

36. Zell did no damage. He was an embarrassment to the GOP as well.

As far as I am concerned, Kerry is the candidate. I support him completely.
What happened prior to the convention is no longer relevant - though I have no idea nor care who Clinton's choice was prior to the nomination.

I am wondering what your obsession with Clinton has to do with this election.
I don't see the two related and 2008 is too far away to focus on now.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[amber dog democrat]

45. We need to agree to dis agree here.

Zell was an idiot and a demagogue.
a former Lester Maddox protoge and an opportunist / RINO

Clinton is not relevant to this election.
I am sorry but he is not.

Kerry has no unanswered questions or confusion regarding his Vietnam service.
There is nothing to clear up.

[BootinUp]

48. Step out of your disguise already, lol

You're crackin me up.

[BootinUp]

37. Absolute nonsense.

The democrats had more than one terrific candidate this election year and the Clintons didn't pre-anoint any of them. Thanks for spreading b.s. about the primary season, but I don't care to continue that line of discussion.

[NightOwwl]

42. Baloney.

You have it backwards. It's Rove who will do anything to keep Bush in the White house, even if it means destroying Kerry and others in the process. He doesn't give a damn how "the little people" will suffer under BushCo policies. It's all about the conquest.

And you want a President you can believe in and doesn't play games? Than you better damn well pull the lever for Kerry.

[Sparkly]

51. "Wesley Clark? You think he had a chance of winning in November?"

Yes, I do. And Kerry can win, too.

No, I don't believe Clinton wants us to lose or is trying to sabotage anything.

[amber dog democrat]

34. Yes he does want Kerry to win.

Didn't you hear the address he gave at the DNC?
And I do trust Bill Clinton. Given the present situation, even more so.

[Awsi Dooger]

49. Not just that speech

The Unity night speech and countless others supporting the Democratic agenda dating to late last fall. When Kerry was identified as the nominee Clinton very effectively began using that "Send Me!" line.

It's an incomparably cynical and pathetic stretch to suggest the Clintons are willing to forfeit several Supreme Court nominees, encourage further upswing in the debt, lessen environmental and workforce protection, and allow all the other damage of 4 more Bush years in a selfish CHANCE of Hillary prevailing in '08. Chris Matthews is idiotic and enough of a Clinton hater to repeatedly suggest that. Especially on this day, DUers should understand Clinton's heart enough to know better.

[MoonRiver]

50. Interesting post.

Hope you've enjoyed your VISIT to DU. :hi:

[Skip Intro]

39. Just saw bill schnieder on CNN say the exact same thing -

Kerry should stop talking about Viet Nam and that era. He said it emphatically, saying that was why Kerry got "no bounce" from the Dem convention, and repeating the Time and Newsweek poll numbers.

Gee, bill, why don't you tell that to the swifboat liars or the repub drones in NY last week wearing the purple-heart bandaids?

"They" want to change the subject now. I don't see any reason why Kerry can't talk about the economy, health care, jobs, Iraq and focus on the bush gang's Viet Nam era cowardice.

We've had a month of talking about Kerry re: back then, its only fair now to look at bush/cheney, back then.

[amber dog democrat]

40. And we know how much credibility CNN deserves.

The corporate owned media looks after itself. And that is someone's opinion anyway.
Time and Newsweek poll numbers may not be sampling the most relevant populations anyway. Consider the source.

[oasis]

52. The American Enterprise Institute's Bill Schneider gives advice to Dem

strategists in hopes that PNAC/corporatists will bite the dust in November.

Thank's Bill, and give Richard Perle our love next time you guys have dinner. :hi:

[TruthIsAll]

53. Hear, Hear! Spot on! Of course, NOW they want to change the subject.

We must do the opposite of what the bastards are advising us...

I question the Clintom leak. Probably taken out of context.

Why would it be leaked by anyone other than a mold or fiction writer?

[MoonRiver]

55. Yep. Here's some advice for Democratic dummies:

whatever CNN advises, do the exact opposite.

[TruthIsAll]

56. On Edit: Mole, not Mold

tia

[IndianaGreen]

46. It was a blunder to resurrect the ghosts of Vietnam!!!!!!

Only those that did not live through that traumatic period of our history, or were too young to be affected by it, are the ones that babble "Vietnam! Vietnam!" I don't want to hear Vietnam again!

Vietnam was not a glorious war that liberated an oppressed people!

Trying to sell the Vietnam "hero" thing is like selling the heroism of the French Foreign Legion in the Algerian war or in Vietnam. It won't fly with the Left, and it is not a topic that many people want to talk about.

The best thing Kerry did in Vietnam was not an act of war, and it was not his antiwar activities when he returned home from the war.

The best thing Kerry did were his trips to Vietnam, such as the one he made in May 1991, and the work he did on the POW/MIA issue. Kerry was the key to President Clinton's normalization of relations with Vietnam. I am surprised that these significant accomplishments have been generally overlooked by the campaign, as if they were ashamed of them.

Vietnam War, Peace Pivotal in Kerry's Life

By Edward Walsh
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, January 3, 2004; Page A01

In November 2000, the twilight of his presidency, Bill Clinton traveled to Vietnam, a place that he and thousands of other young Americans tried to avoid in the 1960s. He spoke at the Vietnam National University of Hanoi, and among those in the audience that he singled out for recognition was a tall man from New England who had been to Vietnam many times before.

His name was John F. Kerry, and he had played a key role in bringing about the first visit to Vietnam by an American president since Richard M. Nixon briefly met with U.S. troops there in 1969.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A50479-2004Jan2?language=printer

[Dr Fate]

58. It's Kerry's fault that they are lying about his record!!!!

I agree- we should never bring up anything that Bush might lie about- that leaves us with...well...I'll get back to you on that!!!