A line in the debate my Repub brother is focusing on

[Sugarcoated]

"It's hard to tell a teacher making $30-35 thousand a year to tighten their belts when people making a lot more than that are living pretty high on the hog."

He writes in his email:

I do agree that it is a sad thing that teachers who educate our future leaders aren't paid better. But still, if a person works hard and manages to become successful, should they be scorned or made to feel guilty because they have a higher standard of living than a person making less?

Note that he didn't single out these CEO's making obscene paychecks and bonuses... he said "people making a lot more".

So imo - this is another part of the dem's strategy... penalize and stigmatize people for being successful... keep people poor so they will be dependent on the government for everything.

Edit to add: WTF?

[msallied]

1. That's greed talking.

Why should be penalize the poor? Because that's exactly what Republican economics aims to do. As if there is something wrong with a person who didn't become a millionaire. Is it fair, then, to ask that person to pony up and pay the same taxes as someone who makes ten times as much? That's ridiculous.

[sandnsea]

4. No, it's stupidity talking

Because the economy and personal incomes and the stock market, all do better under Dems.

[msallied]

5. I agree.

The Republican mindset defines success in society in terms of how much money one makes, and they then set out to penalize those who aren't rich.

[Mimosa]

9. msallied, you are right re: The Republican mindset

Msallied: "The Republican mindset defines success in society in terms of how much money one makes and they set out to penalize those who aren't rich."

THAT IS SO TRUE!

[msallied]

13. Thank you. :)

They are a bunch of stupid greedy bastards. Do I think the government should confiscate 60% of people's taxes? No. But I do believe in everyone paying a fair share, dammit. And rich folks getting up in arms about having to do that are a bunch of whiners.

[KittyWampus]

36. also taxes aren't "penalties". They are contributions to the Common Good.

[Whalestoe]

2. So, rather than give them a giant fucking tax break--making them pay the government is wrong?

Yeah, if paying what you owe is penalizing... we've got a bridge to nowhere to sell him.

[sandnsea]

3. That's why incomes improved under Clinton

And the stock market always does better under Democrats. Because we want people to be poor.

:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. I CAN'T wait for the 90% tax rates

and they are coming, for the top 5%

That pesky history here

[krkaufman]

19. Ditto. n/t

[Egnever]

7. um

he sees something wrong with them paying their share?

[No Elephants]

8. If your "brother" really thinks it's sad that teachers make so little, is he working to change that

[calmblueocean]

10. The question was about who should sacrifice to help our country. Not about "penalizing"

Not about "punishment" or "scorning" or "feeling guilty", either. Those are all ideas your brother thought up. Obama never said them.

And yes, we may need to make some sacrifices to get our country back on its feet, and people who are just getting by can't afford to sacrifice much more than they are these days.

Ask him how it is that most people in the country will have bigger tax breaks under Obama -- everyone under $250,000 -- and why isn't McCain then the one trying to keep poor people poor?

[Wapsie B]

11. They always feel the need to defend the wealthy.

As if the wealthy cannot defend themselves. :eyes:

[Raineyb]

12. Is your brother trying to imply that teachers...

1. don't work hard.
2. aren't successful.
3. don't do important work.

No disrespect but what the fuck is wrong with him?

It's that kind of attitude that many parents pass on to their children that cause the kids to be so disrespectful toward their teachers.

Regards

[gmoney]

14. Remind him that public schools are being defunded to force privatization

By starving public school budgets (for some reason, a bugaboo of the right) it's difficult for them to attract the best teachers and staff, when private schools will pay much better. When public schools fail ("No child left behind" anyone?) it strengthens the argument for vouchers and the eventual destruction of the public school system that built this country.

This is a form of top-down class warfare... close the public schools, then give parents a "voucher" for about 1/3 of what a decent private school would cost (of course, private schools will rise in cost due to supply and demand, and the best ones will be filled with "legacies" and social climbers. So, you end up with the elite being the only kids who get a decent education, while the poor and lower middle class end up at some WalMart Acadamy where they'll be taught to say "would you like fries with that?" in Spanish and Chinese, and how to drive a forklift, if they're lucky.

When public school teachers try to negotiate decent wages through their unions, they're called "terrorists" and the like and made to feel guilty, like they should be altruists and be "rewarded in heaven" rather than paid a living wage here on earth.

Chances are the guys making $250,000 a year benefit greatly from public infrastructure, like the public schools that educate their workforce, infrastructure that permits their business to function, and more often than not, big fat government contracts that they get through connections rather than merit.

SO many of the richest people have made their fortunes as government contractors, exploiting the "privatize government" mantra to make millions at the public trough, but they fail to see the irony when they complain about "welfare queens" and those who "depend on the government for a living."

[chalky]

15. So have you replied to your brother? n/t

[Sugarcoated]

16. I took some of the stuff here and sort of put it in my own words

good points. It was the end of his email that I didn't know how to respond to . . . except to say it's bizarre, and I wish I could come up with something better. He loves Hanutty. I guess that says it all.

[aasleka]

17. The point is that the teacher at 35k pays about 30% in taxes the "high on the hog" guys pays 12%

[krkaufman]

18. "There's some lovely filth down here!"

It's all a game, and the rules are rigged in favor of those with money. It's a moral issue... how much money is enough for an individual, and how low a standard of living is acceptable for those for whom our capitalist system has failed?

[goletian]

20. Here's where these guys get confused. I can understand where they're coming from.

obama was talking about how the little people are made to sacrifice while we give rich people tax cuts, expecting the scraps to fall off of their table so the poor people can feed. its not about punishing success, but about understanding that although the rich pay most of our taxes, they pay a smaller percentage of their income in taxes, and that income is earned because our country and its people make it possible. these people wouldnt be rich without america or its people, and if the people suffer, this will effect everyone eventually. the free market is not independent of the country its found within, they are linked. republicans have a hard time understanding this relationship. when the people are allowed to suffer, revolutions happen, then you get shit like russia and china. theres got to be a balance. democrats understand this, republicans often dont.

[treestar]

22. EXACTLY!

And the friggin' rich use more in public services than the poor do. They use the roads more often. They need the police more (to protect their "hard earned" goods). They need the infrastructure more and therefore its maintenance is even more in their interests.

They can luxuriate in a ridiculous and overwrought fear of terrorists and demand therefore that others fight an expensive war halfway around the world. Let the bastards pay for it, then, without borrowing. Why shouldn't their taxes be raised to pay for all they demand? And that includes medical treatment for those of their fellow citizens injured in said wars or taking care of the widows and children created by the wars they so carelessly engage in practically as a sport.

[treestar]

21. I get sick of repuke crap they are being "penalized for being successful"

They are just LUCKY.

Period. End. They just got lucky.

I have done well in life. But it's luck. I was born white, in the middle class, genetically smart.

I have a responsibility for fellow Americans not so born.

Sheesh, these people make me sick. I have heard them say that over and over for the past 30 years. Who the hell do they think they are? They actually think they competed on a level playing field with everyone in America, or the world? No, they know it and are greedy and don't care what happens to others so long as they got theirs.

[barack the house]

23. Well doesn't Jesus stigmatize the rich. It is easier for a camel to walk->

through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the gates of heaven. When these "Christians" going to get round to reading their book. It's all about sharing even without bible to go off.

[Locrian]

24. holy crap

what a bunch of crap

>>>I do agree that it is a sad thing that teachers who educate our future leaders aren't paid better. But still, if a person works hard and manages to become successful, should they be scorned or made to feel guilty because they have a higher standard of living than a person making less?

Higher standard? WTF? You mean ripping off people and then asking for a bail out? These are your higher standards? Paying less % in taxes and still whining?




>>Note that he didn't single out these CEO's making obscene paychecks and bonuses... he said "people making a lot more".

Twisting words to he can make a point.



>>So imo - this is another part of the dem's strategy... penalize and stigmatize people for being successful... keep people poor so they will be dependent on the government for everything.

This just blows my mind, because it is completely backwards: penalize and stigmatize people for being POOR, keep RICH people dependent on the government for everything....

[Vinca]

25. Very wealthy people have tax loopholes available to them.

Warren Buffett says his secretary pays a higher tax rate than he does. That's not right.

[markevil]

26. The problem with the rich

Most of the republicans I know are not rich but somehow they try to find a way to defend the rich. I think they honestly believe that they will be rich too someday OR the wealth issue is a more acceptable front to cover their wedge issue ideology. They bring up money as a cover for racist, evangelical, anti-abortion (and so on) beliefs. A person making $50k a year who votes republican is not doing so because he identifies with Wall St. CEOs.

[votetastic]

27. The rich are not being penalized..

After all, they are still rich. Obama just wants them to pay the same in taxes that they did under Reagan.

The rich get to live in a society that supports them, and made them rich. As someone else upthread said,, they make more use of government resources than middle and low-income people.

[dansolo]

28. If they are unwilling to pay their fair share in taxes, they should be scorned

These people who are "making a lot more" can maintain the same standard of living while paying more in taxes. They also aren't as impacted when energy and food prices go through the roof.

[DeeDeeNY]

29. Demolishing the middle class at the expense of the wealthy

is not good economic policy. Everyone will suffer. What kind of salary does your brother make?

[Lex]

30. He missed the point entirely.

Why should the rich not have to tighten their belts TOO. Also. In addition to . . . the rich.

See?

[DeeDeeNY]

31. A day in the life of Joe Republican

http://home.comcast.net/~theyellowdog/joerepublican.htm

[Ganja Ninja]

32. These people and their obsession with taxes.

Do they ever stop to think about how much they're losing? I've lost more in the last month than the total I've paid in taxes since the first of the year. People are out of work, they're losing their benefits, the price of everything is going through the roof and these idiots are complaining about a measly and imaginary tax increase!?! They just can see the big picture. I'd rather be working full time (and overtime) and see employers competing for labor with raises and increased benefits then watching everything slip away just to save a few pennies on taxes. You're losing a dollar to save a dime.

[Medusa]

33. For whatever reason, tax talk is the favorite boogeyman of the GOP

and the dumb SOB blue-collar types seem to think that the Dems will take their entire paycheck when the Dems just want the rich to pay their fair share. I do not get it but the GOP beats this like a drum. And the blue-collar types fall for it every single time.

[electron_blue]

34. Are these rich people working harder than the teacher?

probably not.

[theothersnippywshrub]

35. Please send him these links.

Real GDP growth, stock market, budget deficits, rate of job creation, rich people's income growth, poor people's income growth, and middle class income growth all do better under democratic presidents than under republican presidents.

Send him these links.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/business/31view.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1223471400-fUceyX/jeCG//Gc157Fl9w

http://www.cxoadvisory.com/blog/external/blog8-08-06/

http://www.personal.anderson.ucla.edu/rossen.valkanov/Politics.pdf

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2007/sheets/hist01z3.xls

[No Elephants]

37. Boston harbor was remodeled a couple of years ago at taxpayer expense to make more room to dock

small yachts. Is there any doubt these people use more infrastructure and services than the very poor? We are penalizing the honest working poor for the success of the rich, not the other way around. And McCain's plans for taxes and cutting Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are all perfect examples of that.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

38. key = living high on the hog means gluttonous, self indulgent

A self-indulgent, gluttonous, or filthy person.
b. One that uses too much of something

Obama promotes success with hard work. He's talking about the guys who syphon off millions.

[HughMoran]

39. That's just utter horseshit

I make a LOT (many times) more than a teacher and I did it through hard work.

Guess what? I'm getting a tax cut under Obama's plan!!

[Lorien]

40. Ask him the question that Warren Buffet asked:

Buffet is one of the richest men in the world. He asked if anyone thought it was fair that he, a multi-billionaire- should only pay 17% in taxes every year BEFORE taking deductions while his secretary, who makes $65,000, pays 23% of her salary in taxes AFTER all of her deductions? Why should the GOVERNMENT reward the wealthy while penalizing the poor and middle class??

[demokatgurrl]

41. "Keep poor people poor" is CLEARLY a repuke strategy

Don't give tax breaks to low-income earners, don't provide child care for single parents to get better jobs and better themselves, don't spend money to improve schools so ALL children will have the opportunity to earn a good living- just keep "our" taxes down. Gimmee gimmee gimmee.