Ugh!! My brother and sister in law are voting for McLame!! Help me convince them not to

[geekgrrl]

I'm shocked. My partner just got off the phone with her sister in law (her brother's wife), and can't believe they're both planning on voting for McCain! They can't stand Palin, but they fear Obama on taxes and the economy.

These are rational (or so we thought), typically pretty independent-minded people. What's WORSE is that her sister in law VOTED FOR HILARY in the primaries. O.M.G. I didn't think these Hilary-turned-McLame supporters really existed!!!

I need help convincing them not to vote this way-- they're in Virginia for crying out loud!

He is a college professor, and she was a lobbyist in DC (for natural gas, I think). They make quite a bit-- I don't know exactly but combined they probably make 200 grand or more. They have a lot of investments and just took a big hit in the stock market. They own their home, which has significantly dropped in value recently. They have 2 daughters in HS that they can't afford to send to college (they make too much for loans, I guess-- I never had that problem).

They're BIG worry is taxes. They have bought into the whole idea that Obama will cost them tons more in taxes, and they aren't willing to take that risk. They hate Palin, and love Biden, but they are convinced that Obama is a "tax and spend" democrat.

My problem is how to convince them otherwise. I'm a poor grad student, no investments, and in a low tax bracket so I don't even pay attention to this stuff!

Does anyone have any non-partisan links on the issues of spending/taxes and comparing McCain and Obama on these issues?

[Liberal Veteran]

1. Tell them how McSame is gonna give the 12000 dollar tax increase offset with a 5000 dollar credit.

And that they'll have to figure out how to buy health insurance.

[DontTreadOnMe]

2. send them this!

[polichick]

4. LOL - that's great!

[Libby2]

34. lmao, that's great.

[Eyes_wide_ open]

45. I'm going to 'liberate' this on the internets ...

if I may please have your permission? Great work!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

3. WaPo quotes the Tax Policy Institute

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

If they earn under 600K they won't see a rise in taxes.

[geekgrrl]

10. Thank you!! That is GREAT!!! I sent to to them already!!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

15. It's a good one, isn't it?

:hi:

[spooky3]

22. Ask them

1) how much have your investments gone down in value?
2) why do you think this happened (do your research on this; deregulation is a BIG reason why)
3) who was in control of the White H. & Congress for 6 years while all of the mortgage brokers and their enablers were gambling, lying and stealing without oversight? (and who has been able to largely stymie legislation and oversight since then, since the Dems won a very small majority?)

The Republicans failed to rein in really bad behavior that your relatives are now paying for with their lower home values and lower investment values.

[Selatius]

5. Just show them this photo and dispell their misguided fear of Obama

[Indiana_Dem]

12. Yeah! THAT'S the one I was looking for to give geekgirl!

This is a good one for them to study and absorb....along with what McLame would do with the health care.

[glowing]

6. If they own their home outright and make upwards of $200,000.00, then they

should have no problem getting a loan.. that's bull shit.. Now, if they're just to cheap to adjust their lifestyle to give their children a better future, then they are selfish pricks... My parents made a lot less, but still made "too much" for hand outs.. Guess what I worked all the way thru college and took out loans and they took out loans... That's load of shit..

[Vincardog]

7. Obama wants to cut their taxes unless thy make more than 250K

McSame wants to give everyone a 5000 tax credit but tax their company provided insurance as income taking back all of the 5000 and probably a lot more depending on policy.

ASk them how the bush economy has been working for them the last 2 weeks?
Do they want another 4 or 8 years of the last 2 weeks loses?

[chicagoexpat]

8. I'll bet u scratch a bit more and what they're scared of is the color of Obama's economic plans

those are just "coded concerns" covering race... people against the Democratic taxes fear all the gummint money going to blacks.

Chain Reaction: The Impact of Race, Rights, and Taxes on American Politics by Thomas Byrne Edsall and Mary D. Edsall

http://www.amazon.com/Chain-Reaction-Impact-American-Politics/dp/0393309037/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223162608&sr=1-1

I'm sure they'll say they'd be against Obama if he was white for the same reasons... & they would, they've bought the GOP line that taxes only go to help black people.

I kow, my relatives are the same

It's time to get new relatives, IMHO; I did

[The Wielding Truth]

9. Ask them how the Republicans have helped them so far.

Remind them that McCain is surrounded by the same group that has broken our economy and if they believe the ads that accuse Obama of raising their taxes more than McCain you have a bridge in Alaska to sell them.

[treestar]

27. True, and not having their fancy jobs at all would be worse than

a raise in taxes anyway.

[The Wielding Truth]

43. Yep, some people only respond to loss of wealth.

[RBInMaine]

11. If they have decided for sure, DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME. It isn't worth trying to convince grown

adults who have definitely made up their minds what to do. Ask if they are definites, or if they are still open to changing their minds. If their minds are made up, move on. It's not worth a family fight. If they are willing to listen, simply make the case for change, that we can't stand four more years of the same failed policies. If they are not willing to change their minds, SPEND YOUR TIME CALLING VOTERS WHO ARE UNDECIDED. YOU CAN DO THIS AT YOUR LOCAL DEM/OBAMA OFFICE OR RIGHT FROM HOME THROUGH THE OBAMA WEBSITE.

[geekgrrl]

14. They said they'd make up their minds at the last minute-- and I am working locally in WI already! nt

[billyoc]

13. Cut them loose. This is triage, you only have 30 days to get out the vote for Obama,

there's not a moment to waste on anyone who's not "uncommitted". Don't waste your time trying to convice McCain voters to switch. That's a vote losing strategy, every time. :hi:

[geekgrrl]

19. I should have been more clear that they are uncommitted. They said they would :likely: vote Mclame

[billyoc]

21. Send them the exact text of both candidates tax plans.

[kikiek]

16. They will be taxed on their health insurance. The other piece of that is Palin has said

that she wants to remove the tax credit companies get for providing health insurance. There goes employer incentive for providing it. Of course that won't affect Palin. I read that she and her family get government paid health insurance because he is connected to one of the Alaska Indian ancestry. Like a 1/8th bloodline.

[seabeyond]

17. if at this point they are voting for mccain, they arent gonna change their mind. n/t

[CK_John]

18. Bush/Cheney is going to give them a 100% tax and income cut, when they get layed off. n/t

[Davis_X_Machina]

20. You never 'make too much for loans'...

...you can make too much for Federally guaranteed Stafford and Perkins loans, but everyone's welcome on the open market. Parents' HELP loans are around 8%.

[rurallib]

23. They sound like Bob Barr people to me.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

24. Where do they live?

[geekgrrl]

31. Virginia-- DC area.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

37. Oh, that's not good. But we're working very hard in VA.

We canvassed in Fredricksburg today. Did very well. Lots of Obama supporters.

I hope that your brother and his wife rethinks their decision. :(

[mtnsnake]

25. Just ask them if they enjoy getting conned every election by Republicans who promise them everything

only to turn around and fuck them but good.

[beac]

26. This site allows you to do a somewhat detailed calculation of what your taxes would be under

each candidates plan:

http://www.electiontaxes.com/


Also, since they hate Palin, you might want to remind them that statistically there is statistically a one-in-three chance that she would become the President before McCain finished his term, and that's WITHOUT factoring in McCain's advanced age and history of medical problems.

Palin believes the Rapture will happen in her lifetime. Her church believes it is part of her destiny to bring it about. Do they REALLY want someone like that with the nuclear football?

Even if their taxes come out SLIGHTLY higher under Obama, they should consider that an investment in the future safety of their children and the world. Really, is their any better return on your money than that?

[democracy1st]

28. you should make this a topic thanks

[beac]

29. Oh, and one more thing...

since he's a college professor, please send him this pic and ask what grade he'd give these products of Republican education:




Video at this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x206088

[MoonRiver]

30. Tell her,

my husband and I also fear Obama on the taxes, we'll get hit hard, but McCain/Palin is such a frightful prospect in all other aspects (that concern us), we're willing to vote Obama. True story.

[Juche]

32. It is good people covered taxes

I was going to post that study showing people making under 600k will either see their taxes stay the same or go down. So they will not see a tax hike.

As far as the economy, show them this study

http://www.thestate.com/letters/story/532042.html

U.S. economy consistently does better under Democrats

Why vote Democratic?

My reason for voting for the Obama-Biden ticket is that the United States economy has consistently done better since 1901 under Democratic presidents. I am sure that this will come as a surprise to many readers, but the facts do not lie.

In an article in USA Today in December 2005, Matt Krantz, using data from the Stock Traders Almanac, pointed out that if one had invested $10,000 in the stock market in 1901, during the years of Democratic presidents, it would have grown to $279,705, and under Republican presidents, it would have grown to $78,699.

Between 1993 and 2000, under President Clinton, the stock market grew by 236 percent. Between 2000 and 2004, our country experienced negative growth of 10.4 percent. At the end of Clinton’s presidency, the United States banked the largest surplus in our history, and at the end of the current administration, we have the largest deficit in our history.

In the Aug. 30 New York Times, Alan Blinder, an economics professor at Princeton, supported the above analysis: “Simply put, the United States economy has grown faster, on average, under Democratic presidents than under Republicans.

“The stark contrast between the whiz-bang Clinton years and the dreary Bush years is familiar because it is so recent. But while it is extreme, it is not atypical. Data for the whole period from 1948 to 2007, during which Republicans occupied the White House for 34 years and Democrats for 26, show average annual growth of real gross national product of 1.64 percent per capita under Republican presidents and 2.78 percent under Democrats.

“The 1.14 point difference, if maintained for eight years, would yield 9.33 percent more income per person, which is a lot more than almost anyone can expect from a tax cut.”

Professor Blinder went on to point out that income distribution has also been better under Democrats. Those with low incomes benefited as well as did the well-to-do.

Many studies show that facts are not really an important factor in the way we vote. We vote on emotional and cultural grounds, rather than on the basis of rational analysis, so the above facts will probably not persuade anyone, but we might ask, “Why do we vote against our own best interests?”

LARRY JACKSON


Here is some other good stuff to send them.

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2008/07/do-parties-matt.html

http://www.slate.com/id/2199810/

http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2007/02/god-punishes-us-when-we-collectively.html

Also ask them in all seriousness this question:

"John McCain picked a woman grossly unqualified to be his VP after not vetting her enough to uncover tons of scandals. He claimed there would be WMD in Iraq, that we'd be greeted as liberators, that the war would be easy and take 6 weeks (he doubted 6 months) and that there was no history of violence between shia and sunni. He once confused Al Qaeda (who are sunni and at war with the Shi'ites) with Iranian extremists (who are Shi'ite). That is like a religious expert confusing protestants and catholics. He He has also admitted economics is not his strong suit. He once called Putin the president of Germany.

Knowing all of that, what kind of judgement and leadership do you think he will provide for the economy if he becomes president? What kind of leadership will Palin provide if McCain has melanoma again.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG1aOORf8Pc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR3zp4c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioy90nF2anI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5ENwej0fpc"

[geekgrrl]

33. Great links and info-- thanks! nt

[elleng]

35. Sorry I have no info for you;

just wanna get this off my chest! This is a rant! I'm YELLING!

Allegedly 'fear' O on taxes and the economy, and allegedly rational: NOT REALLY, I smell rats!

200 grand or more, lots of investments, took a hit! B.S. that they can't afford to send their daughters to college, ABSOLUTELY b.s. (especially in VA, with fabulous bunch of state schools, with state tuition.)

We're somewhat similarly situated, but under 200; investments taking hits, paying off one daughter's private college tuition and another daughter's out of state tuition. PARENTS JUST DO IT!

Now I'll breathe!

[BlooInBloo]

36. Here ya go...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7276497

[Motown_Johnny]

38. try this.... I hope the like the Washington Post, But convincing a lobbyist to vote for Obama won't

be easy





http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

[eshfemme]

39. For people with under 250K, taxes will be cut. For people over 250K, taxes will be raised.

But they'll be raised to previous levels underneath Reagan or Clinton and those were definitely levels that didn't hurt them.

I believe the Tax Policy Center is supposed to be an independent think tank that examines both of their tax plans.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/

[RagAss]

40. So rich that they're worried about taxes?

Sorry, Your not going to convince them of shit.

Got that Greed thing going on.

[Tutonic]

41. Tell them to read the newspaper. Even they know the difference

between Grampy and the O man.

[eridani]

42. If they have military connections, tell them that Obama is getting six times as many

--donations from military people serving abroad as McCain is.

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/08/troops-deployed-abroad-give-61.html

According to an analysis of campaign contributions by the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics, Democrat Barack Obama has received nearly six times as much money from troops deployed overseas at the time of their contributions than has Republican John McCain, and the fiercely anti-war Ron Paul, though he suspended his campaign for the Republican nomination months ago, has received more than four times McCain's haul.

Maybe it’s his voting record
http://www.votesmart.org/

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 80 percent in 2006.
Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 20 percent in 2006.

[progressivebydesign]

44. Show them the clip of Brian Wms on Late Show, talking about the idea of Palin on 9/11.

He made an excellent point that some people, republicans, may like that ticket but they also might consider 9/11 when Bush was flying around in a plane and Cheney was in charge of the Country. I think that they NEED to understand that at a moment's notice PALIN will the next president. If they remember how they felt on the morning of 9/11, then ask them how they'd feel having Miss Golly You Betcha in charge of our very lives.

If that sobering thought does not trump their greed... I mean concern about taxes, then there is nothing you can do. Some people truly believe that money is more important than life.

[and-justice-for-all]

46. Of all the thing to be concerned about..they pick TAXES?

Where exactly do they think money for road improvements, educational grants and more Police and Fire Fighters comes from?? it comes from their TAXES. If they make under 250K, they WILL NOT GET A TAX INCREASE.

The Economy...McInsane has said himself that he has no idea how the economy works. Who will be running his adminestration? all those damn lobbyist that helped get us in to the mess we are in.

[grassfed]

47. McCain wants to give Social Security to Wall St

[WinkyDink]

49. I think this $700B appeased WS's lust for that SS $ somewhat, no?

[grassfed]

50. McC wants to privatize SS only to destroy it

besides the $700 billion is only the beginning. It will be 2 - 3 trillion soon.

[WinkyDink]

48. Tax on Employer-provided health-care benefits. PERIOD.