Some comments about the past couple of days on DU.

[terrya]

What a disheartening weekend this has become.

The GLBT community has many good reasons to be disappointed with Biden's comments (the reasons for which have been thoroughly explained in dozens of other posts, so there's no need for me to go over it again here.)

What I do not understand, and what troubles me the most, is why so many people at DU see this as some sort of OPPORTUNITY to continually post messages that ridicule and scorn those who disagree with Obama/Biden's views on this subject.

I cannot help but notice that it would have been so much easier if people had simply chosen to defuse the situation with a kind word or two offering sympathy and support. Or, an even simpler choice would have been to simply "shut the fuck up" (as we've been instructed to do) and let others take care of such an objectionable and unsavory task.

Still, with very little effort, even the most ardent Obama/Biden supporters could have done so without conceding any strategic ground and without risking the appearance of criticizing the candidate or the party. They would not have compromised any of their strong party loyalty, and they would not have reavealed their stealthy, anti-gay sentiments.

It's just common courtesy, in much the same way that someone instinctively says "I'm sorry" when they hear that someone's grandmother has died. Even though that person didn't actually know the grandmother, even though they have no emotional connection to the grandmother, most thoughtful people will offer some expression of sympathy (even if it's not heartfelt.)

How difficult would it be to say something like: "I'm sorry." "I understand." "It's awful." "You're right." "I hope things get better once he's in office." Just say the words and move on. I'm sure that most (perhaps all) would have been happy to accept those words of support, and allow the dust to settle, and eventually move on.

I'm not suggesting that we're all sympathy-whores, but a small gesture like that would have gone a LONG way toward offering understanding and reassurance to GLBT DUers who have been so casually cast aside, disregarded and marginalized. Indeed, many DUers have already done so, and their words of support are most appreciated.

And so, the insults are hurled, and we're accused of being selfish whiners who don't understand the big-picture. The most cruel individuals demonstrate their party loyalty with name-calling and questioning our motives. ("Oh my god, how DARE anyone openly criticize our candiate? TRAITOR! Troll! Freeper!")

That element on DU seems to RELISH their self appointed role of deciding who is a "PUMA" and who's disloyal. They take great personal delight in heaping scorn and ridicule on us. Their irrational fear and paranoia causes them to distrust those who have given no reason to do so.

The original GLBT response was one of disappointment. But the overly-aggressive and accusatory nature of many at DU has provoked a DEFENSIVE response. It's noteworthy that the very ones who are complaining the loudest about GLBT DUers being "divisive" are ACTUALLY the ones who are personally responsible for creating (and perpetuating) it.

Making matters worse is when we try to calmly and rationally explain the reasons WHY we are offended and hurt, those explanations are completely ignored. We offer reassurances that we're NOT abandoning the party. We reaffirm that we're NOT not-voting, and that we're NOT supporting McCain. Still, those are just as quickly disregarded.

Rather than accepting our assurances an opening to find common-ground, our words of loyalty are ignored. Our sincerity is questioned. Instead, in response, their venom and hateful rhetoric are ratcheted-up another notch. Why? To what end? What's accomplished?

We're judged by whether or not OUR priorities match THEIR priorities. For that myopic element, there must be NO deviation from that which THEY have declared to be the proper order. They incorrectly assume that because I put a higher priority on something that's personally important to me, then I must be judging their issues as having no importance at all. (I believe the Freudian term for this is "projecting".)

And if our personal priorities don't match theirs, they act as somehow it's THEY who have been deeply wounded. Of course their "wounds" are imagined and exaggerated in a cheap attempt to score points and to try an neutralize the critics. They aren't as clever as they imagine themselves to be, and they have revealed more about themselves than they belive.

How ironic that WE are the ones who are accused of being "selfish" and "petty" and "disloyal" and "un-Democratic". How absurd that we are the ones who are labeled as "divisive"!!

Regardless of what their motivation is, one thing is clear: It's absolutely disgusting. It's beneath contempt. For those people, I've lost all respect. I will never view them the same again, and I suspect that many here feel the same way.

[bicentennial_baby]

1. Agreed, friend

Rec'd.

[Seen the light]

2. I agree, but in partial defense of those people.....

With the election a month away, people are understandably on edge about the slightest thing that might cost the ticket even a handful of votes.

Again, I completely agree with you and I share the sentiments of GLBT DUers that are offended and outraged, but please remember what today's date is. People are going to get a little loopy. And...this is DU after all. People sometimes say things just to stir shit up.

[Richardo]

12. Here's the thing, though:

What I'd like to ask those DUers who are questioning GLBT loyalty over this issue is: how would THEY feel if Biden or Obama admitted that while they support ending the war, there was really no way to do it in the near future. Or, y'know, we support the idea of universal health care, but it's just too complex an issue to tackle right now.

They'd feel betrayed too, and I'll bet that most of them would bolt the party and vote for another ticket rather than 'suck it up' for the good of the country.

The GLBT community as a whole has been a LOT more supportive of a ticket that doesn't fully support THEM, than the average DU foamer would be if one of THEIR priorities was given short shrift (after all, we've seen this for two years re: Pelosi and impeachment).

[Seen the light]

29. To be honest, they'd probably still defend the ticket

Like poster QC said in another thread (I'm paraphrasing here), DU has become less of a political discussion forum and more of a fansite lately. I agree with that and I suspect things will get better after the election is over and will go back into fansite mode as the next election approaches.

[democracy1st]

61. with Supreme Court appointments waiting in the wings ur dayum right

[justiceischeap]

84. If they're that concerned about a "handful" of votes, they should keep the following in mind

The latest study I could find was that there are over 10 million identified gays and lesbians in the United States (that was in 2000). They only polled people that were over 18 at the time.

So maybe if they are that concerned about losing Democratic votes they should think about the following:
As a community, there are more of us than the state of North Carolina.
As a community, we have a shit ton of disposable income (which the Dems love to count on with little to no return on our investment)

Imagine if the GLBT community got together, ran our own candidate and withheld our money and our 10 million+ votes. Could Democrats win the election without us? We are a large voting bloc who will put our money towards worthwhile causes and candidates. I would NEVER do anything to harm our chances in this election but it sure would be nice not to have to come to DU and see the following in a post title "Stupid Queers." It would also be nice if I came here and saw that that the next thing I saw was a tombstone next to the member who wrote it.

I'd also like to point out it was like this in 2004 too. We were told we weren't important enough, that we HAD to get Kerry elected. And then when Kerry wasn't elected some folks here blamed it on the GLBT community.

[Seen the light]

90. That's not at all what I meant

I know that there are a significant number of people in this country that are members of the GLBT community.

My point is that some of these posters that get all defensive about Obama/Biden get defensive no matter what the criticism is. It could be the biggest issue in the world or the tiniest...point is that any criticism angers them.

That's all I meant by saying that.

[JitterbugPerfume]

3. me too,terrya

I agree.

Jjust because it doesn't directly apply to me does not mean it cant be a priority . What affects my friends , affects me.

[Forkboy]

8. "What affects my friends, affects me."

Worthy words to live by.

:loveya:

[nancyr]

4. I am sorry.

Don't assume that everyone here feels the same about this issue, because we don't.

[Curtland1015]

5. While I agree completely with every point, I have seen some bullshit being thrown the other way too.

People are taking other comments out of context. They attack them as homophobes and bigots out of anger. People are ALL on edge, but that gives no one the right, straight, gay, black, white, short, tall, or WHATEVER... to throw stones.

I think we all just need to try and be a little calmer.

[cali]

6. you're right, terrrya. It IS easy to simply say "I'm sorry, I understand

how painful this is". And too many people didn't react that way, but in all fairness, the majority of DUers did, and that shouldn't be ignored or forgotten.

[Richardo]

7. Thanks for this post, my brother

:hug:

K&R

[The Magistrate]

9. Well Said, My Friend

There were some very disappointing performances here lately, last night in particular.

People need to understand the views of others on this question.

It is perfectly understandable to me that people committed to same-sex relationships may see this as an issue of over-riding importance. It is perfectly understandable that they feel let down by the platform position of the ticket. Much of the time, they must turn a blind eye to this, but that is harder to do when it goes out on a nationwide broadcast scores of millions tune in to.

It is also perfectly understandable to me why the platform position of the ticket is what it is. It is not necessary to approve of certain features of the present political climate to recognize they exist, and recognizing they exist does not signify approval of them. A battle must be fought out on the actual terrain of the field; one cannot wish hills or swamps to disappear because they are inconvenient or undesired, and proceed to act as if they were not there.

There is no good served by attempting to deny people an expression of their hurt and anger, just as there is no good served by attempting to claim reasonable political calculation is something else.

Time is on our side in this issue. The tipping point is California, and it is of paramount importance that the bigots' amendment there be defeated at the polls, and the state court's ruling stand. Experience in New England has shown that once legalization of same-sex marriage is a reality, people quickly lose interest in opposing it, for they can see it does none of the harms claimed by the bigots in opposition to it, and does some good among their family and co-workers and neighbors. California involves so large a proportion of the country's population, and is so prominent in setting social trends, that legalization of same-sex marriage there will have a benefit of this sort well beyond that state's borders.

One thing it seems to me we can all agree on is that there is no room for doubt that the Democratic Party is far more supportive and welcoming towards the aspirations and existences of gay citizens than the Republican party is. The goal of the Republican base is outright persecution of homosexuals, and those they vote enthusiastically for do their best to deliver when in office.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. I knew the ticket's position

and had accepted it for the hypocrisy it is. What really ticked me off was Biden's utterly vile framing. It was the laughing about 'we agree' it was the audience and Ifill joining in. And Binden letting that stand. So he agrees with Palin. That, sir, is not the platform. It simply is not.

He also mentioned the constitutional protections that Obama mentions, the 14th being the most vital. That was good. But he botched the entire thing. He kept talking. He snapped the 'no' in reply without reservation and with noticable joy.

He could have said, had he the spine for it:

"Democrats believe in justice and equal protection under the law, as enshrined in the United States Constitution. The Republicans lead by Gov. Palin believe that marriage is for one man, one woman, and Cindy McCain."

[PeaceNikki]

35. Very well said

:thumbsup:

[Bluenorthwest]

40. Thank you

It has been wild around here...

[PeaceNikki]

41. It's been cruel.

Very cruel. And *I* got what it was about the moment he snapped the word "no". I'm a straight female and *I* was angry. I don't understand why so many didn't/don't get it.

[Zuiderelle]

38. That is exactly it. It was a punch in the gut.

Being brought to hope by his words preceding it, and then BAM... "Do you support gay marriage?" "No." And then even worse, Palin stating that they agree on the question, that neither one of them supports gay marriage. The one moment of audible laughter from the audience in the entire debate in reaction to Ifill's saying that they agree, and no objection from the man who will be our vice president.

[Bluenorthwest]

46. And knowing that we will be advocating for them so much

While Joe can not manage to turn a decent phrase on behalf of millions of voters.
It was not his finest moment. Perhaps it will sharpen his rhetoric, this obvious failing moment in the debate. Still he won. And he'll be Vice President, and we will help deliver him to that honor. Of course, and as always.

[krispos42]

70. Is THAT what happened???

Damn, I missed that. I work nights. I get home after all this stuff goes down.

So THAT'S why things are the way they are!




Damn. :-(

[bullwinkle428]

55. Of all of the things he chose to find common ground with her, it was

pretty shitty that beating up on the GLBT community was thing that he felt would work best with the audience.

Think about it...not Al Qaeda, not the worsening energy-related problems, not the looming financial disaster...it was the GLBTers! A crushing disappointment.

[Forkboy]

10. It's been ugly, but there's also been some great posts to come out of all this.

Yours is one of them. :kick:

[QC]

22. You have impressed me a lot these past couple of days.

I liked particularly your response to the one who argued that not being able to smoke grass is equivalent to not being able to marry.

[The Magistrate]

25. Mr. Forkboy, Sir, Is A Prince Of A Fellow

[QC]

27. He has long been one of my favorites here. n/t

[ulysses]

37. that he is, sir.

I'm proud to have called both of you my friend.

[Forkboy]

56. You just like me because Chris giggles at my Godzilla sigline.

;)

:hi:

[ulysses]

58. it's actually that crazy shit you listen to.

I'll be sending you a remedial set of CDs shortly. :D

[Forkboy]

62. Heh...good luck on that. If there isn't a goat somewhere on the CD I'm not listening.

Horns up!!




I'm sending YOU some of my CDs. Chris is clearly going to turn out normal at this rate. I feel an intervention is in order. :P

[ulysses]

64. given what passes for culture out here,

I'll be tempted to play them for him. :scared:

[Forkboy]

54. Thank you, my friend.

The feeling is definitely a mutual one. :toast:

[QC]

60. Thanks! It's always good to see a longtime DUer around.

There's not many of us left.

[Forkboy]

63. Yup...us old timers need to stick together in the face of all the newbies.

What with their fire and their wheel! Damn kids!!!

;)

[QC]

65. Well, maybe they will get distracted shopping for body spray

and searching for bigger grommets to put in their earlobes and leave us to our politics ;-)

[Forkboy]

72. Every time I see those grommets I think of the ancient Mayan game...

where they had sideways hoops on a wall. Only instead of a ball they used a head. Now, whenever I see one of those grommets I long for a head to launch through them. :)

This is why I stay in a lot. :rofl:

[QC]

77. I know a guy who has grommets.

For dressy occasions he takes them out and his earlobes dangle just like my poor old Aunt Louise's upper arms.

[Forkboy]

53. I love weed as much as the next stoner, but damn, that was just silly beyond words.

Thanks for the kind words. :pals:

[PeaceNikki]

11. K&R

:patriot:

[Zuiderelle]

13. What a great post!

Kicked and recommended and re-read a few times. This explains the frustration exactly.

[Bunny]

14. Well said, terry. Very well said.

Last night's threads were a kick in the gut, and stunning in their cruelty. Things *will* improve, my friend. :hug:

[ruggerson]

15. Agreed Terry

thank you for a thoughtful, deeply felt post. I hope many people read it very carefully.

[EstimatedProphet]

16. Well, well put. I'm glad you posted this.

[BlooInBloo]

17. (shrug) I've said repeatedly that Obama's separate-but-equal stance...

on gay marriage/civil unions is something we have to work on him to change.

Not sure what else there is to say about the matter.

Of course, I have no idea what threads you're talking about - I've been out for a few days.

[The Magistrate]

18. There Have Been Some Real Loopers, Sir: Fortunately Things Do Seems To Be Calming Down

We were very, very busy last night....

[BlooInBloo]

21. Gotcha.

[QC]

23. deleted

[AspenRose]

67. I'm glad I missed it

It sounds like it was awful.

[Starry Messenger]

19. Another post bookmarked.

It's been an eye-opening couple of months to say the least. I couldn't believe it either. Thank you for your beautiful words. I am a straight person but marriage equality is a big issue for me. It's not a "frill". Anything else is a denial of basic human rights. If they can do it to our gay brothers and sisters, then they can also remove many other protections.

But like you say, most would agree. It's the hurtful and offensive words that come from others when you attempt to express your fears and frustrations that is so sad. I'm sure I'm not putting it very well. Thank you for your post.

[jillan]

20. There's another side to this too.

Some of us have agreed with those of you who thought Biden's comments were cold.
We've offered our support and understanding why people would have been outraged.
I've seen several threads over the last few days where DUers have started threads saying
they understand, and I've seen those threads drop.


Let's just hope that Biden's comments were political, not how he or Obama really feel.

You know - we are all family here.
We can fight and be angry, but in the end - we all need to stick together.
Obama/Biden at their worst is still a helluva alot better than McCain/Palin at their best.

:grouphug:

[Fran Kubelik]

73. I'm sorry that I missed those threads.

Thank you so much for reaching out. It means a lot.

[TuxedoKat]

24. I am sorry too.

I meant to post something yesterday in support, but didn't get to. I support gay marriage. I think the rest of America is not ready though, but I think we are much farther along than we were four years ago. I am hopeful that we will see everyone have the same rights during an Obama Administration.

[justiceischeap]

89. "I think the rest of America is not ready though..."

That would be where you are wrong though.

According to a recent poll in USA Today, 63% of the people polled said it was a private matter. Here's a further breakdown of their findings:

Poll findings:

A majority of respondents at every level of education and income say same-sex marriage is "strictly private." This was true:

• In every region: East (71%), West (64%), Midwest (63%) and South (56%).

• Among all ages except "65 and older": 18 to 29 (79%), 30 to 49 (65%), 50 to 64% (62%) and 65 and older (44%).

• Among people who also say they have a favorable view of any of the three leading presidential candidates. For those holding favorable views for John McCain, 55% say marriage is a private decision; for Barack Obama, 75% say so; and for Hillary Clinton, 69% do. All three oppose same-sex marriage. Both Democrats both favor civil unions.

• Among people who say a relative, friend or co-worker personally has told them he or she was gay or lesbian (73%).

The strongest support for government regulation of same-sex marriage came from people who say they:

• Attend religious services weekly (56%).

• Are Republicans (56%).

• Are politically conservative (54%).

"After Massachusetts, the public has seen that the decision there has not affected people's lives as much as was feared," Rozell says.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-06-03-gay-marriage-poll_N.htm?csp=34

[TuxedoKat]

91. Well, that's good to know.

I didn't know attitudes had changed that much. I had heard about that survey but never heard the specifics. Thanks for sharing the details. I stand corrected.

[treestar]

112. Interesting, could it be the media they fear?

If Joe had said he was in favor of same sex marriage, the media would have made that the story of the day. And there was that thought that Kerry lost because the repukes had been able to make the election about social issues.

So if most people support it, was that true four years ago? And if most people really support it, then what's to be afraid of embacing it?

[Runcible Spoon]

28. kick, rec, and hugs.

It has been quite shocking.

[Longhorn]

30. I have to believe that the majority of DU members agree with you completely.

:hi:

[Bluenorthwest]

31. Fantastic post.

And I'd also like to say that I have gained great respect for several DUers over the last couple of days, some who I had previously not liked much, and some I simply underestimated. I have been moved by many of the supportive posts of allies, and by the posts from eloquent GLBT brothers and sisters.
A few have pissed me off, but those gems in the trash pile are sources of great joy and pride for me. And that outweighs any number of idiots. We have some pips, but we also have some stellar minds and dedicated Democrats here. Shout out to them, you betcha!

[nam78_two]

32. Recd.nt

[Nye Bevan]

33. I am sure that Obama is in favor of gay marriage

just as I am sure that he opposed the death penalty.

In an ideal world he would be able to say this. But the messy political reality is that he cannot speak the truth about all of his views without jeapordizing his chances of winning the election.

Husbands *cannot* say that their wife's ass looks fat in those pants, even if it does. Presidential candidates (at least in the current political environment) cannot say that they favor gay marriage, even if they do.

[PeaceNikki]

34. This reply states it perfectly

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7315768#7316247

[Nye Bevan]

36. OK, that was not very cool

I confess I had missed that Biden remark (not having watched the debate as I did not have the stomach to listen to Palin all that time).

I think that with Biden it may be a generational thing. I do know some older people who are great people but somewhat unenlightened (I will be kind and say this instead of "bigoted") reagrding gay rights. I hope that Obama will be able to enlighten him.

[ulysses]

39. I'm with you, Terry.

Peace and strength. The fight is a long one, my friend.

[JackBeck]

42. Out of frustration, I just could not respond to those threads.

I'm sorry I wasn't there for you and my other LGBT DU friends.

:pals:

[Forkboy]

59. Sometimes I skip the poverty threads for the same reason.

Hard to read some things said here about that sometimes. It's more than understandable that you chose not to respond to some of what was said last night.

[dickthegrouch]

81. Don't feel bad....

I started one of them and couldn't bring myself to look at it after post 150 until it starting getting more recommendations. I am sincerely grateful that others could take up the issue.

And I'm still trying to wrap my head around the PM that thanked me for starting the thread.

Peace. No on 8 was very appreciative of the $1300.

[cbayer]

43. K & R

Well said. It's been a tough couple days around here, and it is wonderful to see this post. Thank you.

[pinto]

44. Thanks for your post terrya.

[InvisibleTouch]

45. I think I do understand...

...because I can imagine how I'd feel if Biden or Obama had dismissed my biggest issue on national television (which happens to be environment/climate crisis), because it wasn't politically expedient to support it. I would have been angry and disappointed too. I'd have believed, though (and I think the same is true of gay marriage rights) that it was in part a political strategy, not entirely in alignment with their true feelings and intentions. And you know what - from that perspective, I'm okay with it. Just get them into office, and from there they can affect positive change.

Still, I'd much rather see our guys stand up and support the imporant issues directly, without worrying about the polls and the swing voters. Stand up for what you believe in and be proud, and too bad on whoever doesn't like it! That's certainly how I live my life. But the nuances of modern politics don't quite work that way. I personally think that Obama and Biden do fully support equal marriage rights for everyone, but know that now is not the moment to say so in so many words. Hope that helps a bit.

[jpgray]

47. Great post Terry

:thumbsup:

[Left Is Write]

48. You, terrya, are one of the posters I respect most in the whole of DU.

I wish there were something I could say that wouldn't sound like some silly platitude, so I'll just say I'm with you.

[eleny]

49. It's made me sad, too, dear terrya

[Undercurrent]

50. I agree.

Last night I reached out to our GLBT brother and sisters by not criticizing, but by sharing a personally painful experience. I know from having deeply loved some gay family members, and friends how important equality, but most of all true respect is. This should start with each of us. Now.

[dsc]

51. The bigotry on this site the last two days has been awful

and frankly some of the terrible moderation decisions need to be explained. In several instances gay posters were called Republicans with no take down of posts while posts calling the people out for calling others Republicans were let standing. Some sort of explanation should be provided.

[Barrymores Ghost]

52. I will state for the record how appalled I am that a few of these creeps...

...still have a home on DU.

Maybe it's supposed to be in our nature to forgive, but what I bore witness to -- and railed against in here for the sake of my LGBT brothers and sisters -- shocked me to the core. I didn't think this was a place where such disgusting and hateful speech was tolerated, regardless.

I haven't been around so long that I know all of what's happened in the Democratic Underground, but I can say that I've not seen the like of this ever before, and if I see it again -- and nothing is done to those responsible -- then DU is lost.

[bunnies]

57. I wish I knew what the fuck is going on around here.

I take one day off and the next thing I know its hate-fest day. Its disgusting, whatever caused this.

[Barrymores Ghost]

66. Feel fortunate that you missed it.

I thought we'd been invaded by an army of white-trash skinheads.

[QC]

69. You mean we weren't?

;-)

[Barrymores Ghost]

71. If that's the case, I think we need to rethink our "inclusiveness" model. n/t

[QC]

83. You'll get no disagreement from me on that one.

I have long believed that people who consistently engage in sociopathic behavior should get the boot.

[bunnies]

101. In that case,

I'm extremely glad I missed it. I knew it couldnt be anything good.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

68. K&R.

[Fran Kubelik]

74. Wow. Thank you Terry, and thank you to all the friends who posted on this thread.

I think I will sleep a whole lot better tonight than I did last night.

It's funny - I started last night trying to be rational and calm, and tried to reason with people who seemed, I thought, to be misunderstanding others who had posted about their disappointment with that moment during the VP debate. But I ended the night angry and in tears over the things that I saw posted here to me and to others.

To you, Terry, and to all our friends here: :hug:

[tekisui]

75. I stand with you, terrya.

Right beside you, right behind you. Thank you.

[flvegan]

76. I learned I'm just a hateful shit-stirrer for not playing fanboy

and speaking my mind in regards to my support for the GLBT community and against the Obama/Biden opposition to gay marriage.

[QC]

79. Oh well, it's an easy mistake to make,

considering that DU was for many years a political discussion forum, prior to its recent remake into a fansite.

[Fran Kubelik]

114. Hey flvegan.

You keep earning my respect on a daily basis. You're a stand-up guy. Thanks.

[racaulk]

123. Thank you, flvegan.

These kinds of threads show us who our straight allies are in the fight for GLBT equality, and you are definitely among them. Thank you for that.

:pals:

[Marrah_G]

128. Damn you always make me smile!

Except when you make me wanna :grr:

:toast:

[progressivebydesign]

78. Thoughtful post. But are we going to keep seeing post after post about this?

This is not the only issue. I'm thinking of the people (straight and gay) who are living on the street now because of the housing crisis, or those that have to hold bake sales to pay for operations.

The issue brought up was worthy of discussion, but did it honestly need thread after thread after thread??

You may not believe it, but DU has a history of infiltrators stirring things up right before the election. I honestly wonder what the point of all those posts really were? I understand that some were unhappy with Biden's comments. But it's so strange that it turned into this drama-fest this weekend, when there are so many other worthy issues.

I swear to god, every election, I'm here begging people to stop this stuff because it only divides us further. The republicans suck, but man.. they sure know how to keep it together. The dems shoot themselves in the foot every time.

Unity is impossible, I've come to believe.

[Fran Kubelik]

82. on edit: Aw, fuck it.

You don't understand and you don't care, and there's nothing I could type in this box that could change that.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

88. "Now I'm liberal, but to a degree."

:*

[Blue-Jay]

107. The Point ------- -------- ------- -------- ------ ------- ------ ------ ------ -------- You

Read it again, and try to understand what the OP is saying.

[racaulk]

124. Yep, I wish those stupid queers would quit whining too!!!

:eyes:

Yes, there are other issues that are also very worthy of our time and efforts. But believe it or not, I can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Can you?

[Withywindle]

80. Great post.

I couldn't believe some of the shit being flung last night. :puke:

[tigereye]

85. hey my friend...

:hug:

[chknltl]

86. Some day, ALL men and women will be equal.

I do believe we have it in us as a race, to arrive at that conclusion. Sadly, if we don't figure out an equal love for one another we could easily wind up being equally extinct.

Pleased to have been the 35th recommendation.

[JerseygirlCT]

87. I believe you and all of us have reason to be frustrated

with the acceptability of anything less than full, equal marriage rights for gay and lesbian citizens. I really cannot comprehend people thinking there's any good reason to deny those rights.

But I also think that our team, while holding an incrementalist view, will still bring to the WH an entirely different outlook on the issue. And a commitment to moving in the right direction.

Don't get me wrong; I totally disagree that *some* civil rights are good enough. ButI also know that some smart people I've read about and heard from think that incremental change will get us to true equality faster in the long run.

I totally understand the frustration. I think the more passionate responses you've gotten to that frustration comes from a place of passionate support for the Dem. ticket though. And I hope we can all move forward together. Sometimes this stuff has a way of steamrolling change, you know?

[Stand and Fight]

92. Kicked and recommended.

It never ceases to amaze me when I see this sort of thing on DU. It seems to me that it could very well be a reflection of what things must have been like for all of those fighting for civil rights within liberal circles back in the 1960s. As much as we would like to think that progressives and liberals then were united in bring about much needed social change, the behavior of some on DU convinces me that it must have been a very bitter and difficult struggle -- both within and without. While there are many here that are a great credit to this board and to the Democratic Party, there are some who I believe are not willfully cruel, but willfully un-empathetic when it comes to the feelings of others on what should be a civil rights issue just the same. I salute you for having the courage to post this, and while I myself am not a member of the GLBT community, I offer my heartfelt empathy as a member of the African-American community and a spouse in an interracial marriage. Stay strong, stay true. :hug:

[Liberal_in_LA]

93. kick and rec

[kerry-is-my-prez]

94. I feel your pain - the Clinton supporters here got the same treatment.

n/t

[Jamastiene]

95. Well said, my friend. Well said.

Here is another :kick: and Recommend for you. :hug:

[crankychatter]

96. the issue is being used in the last few minutes of the most crucial election in history to suppress

to suppress voter turn out

period

you're completely right

THEY are completely right

and I do NOT CARE

this elaborate defense is just a way of furthering the issue... getting the last drop of gas you can out of it

this very OP is more of the same BS

if you don't GET that, YOU don't care if McCain wins

period

[Solon]

98. I would argue that YOU are the one trying to suppress voter turnout...

It is horrendous that, out of all the posters here, that only one of the "usual suspects" has bothered to post on this thread, and is outright hostile to boot. No surprise that. :eyes:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

100. Absolute proof that one can sleep and type at the same time.

Dimwittedness in the pursuit of hogwash is no vice.

[racaulk]

121. You were among the worst posters through it all.

No one here is interested in voter suppression. Did any GLBT person here claim that they were not voting for Obama, or that they wanted others to not vote for Obama, based on Biden's comments? If so, please provide a link to show where someone claimed that they are interested in Obama losing, or McCain winning, this election or that anyone is actively pursuing Obama's defeat by other means.

One link, that's all.

If you cannot do that, then please understand that your point is nothing more than a bullshit strawman argument. Not that I would expect you to understand that, as this has been pointed out to you before. You just choose not to listen.

All of us are working our asses off to make sure that Obama wins this thing, and those efforts go far beyond posting on DU. Believe it or not, we're on your side.

This OP was a very brave and articulate attempt at reconciliation from people like me to people like you. And you came to this OP to shit all over that. You would be ashamed of yourself if you were capable of feeling shame.

Finally, in response to your words: "and I do NOT CARE"

Yes, we know. You have made that painfully obvious.

[quakerboy]

97. Its a pretty fucked up dynamic.

I hate these periods where people feed off of each other and just dig the holes as big as they can.

[Danger Mouse]

99. There are homophobes on DU. This kind of stuff brings them to light.

They want you guys under the bus.

[prolesunited]

102. Kicking.

EDIT: This is Blue-Jay posting. I forgot to log my lovely wife out before posting. My bad.


This post is insightful and needs to be read and understood by as many people as possible.

I have never had the privilege to vote for any candidate with whom I agreed with 100% of the time (maybe one day....*sigh*), but that doesn't mean that I didn't support their candidacy wholeheartedly. The national climate regarding GLBT issues has gotten better during my lifetime. No, it isn't good yet, but it's assuredly better. I too, look forward to the day when equal rights are granted to everyone, but today's politicians are -mostly- not ready to put their asses on the line to combat all forms of prejudice. Sucks.

The Idealist Blue-Jay is pissed off royally that so many of "our own" are too cowardly to take a brave stance in fear that they'll be voted out by the ever-dwindling number of bigots in our country. Cowards!

The Pragmatist Blue-Jay is...well... STILL ROYALLY PISSED OFF, but realizes that baby-steps are better than backward steps. I guess I'd rather have "some" as opposed to "none". It's a bitter pill to swallow, but I'd rather keep moving forward.

Back on topic: There are a few DUers who like to label good Democrats as "PUMAs" because they have the nerve to express displeasure with the stated positions of our candidates. That's stupid and divisive, and against what we (as Democrats) stand for. Try to understand why our GLBT brothers and sisters feel as though they've been marginalized (AGAIN!) before you let your zeal get the best of you. These are loyal Democrats that you're insulting. Trust them, and please try to understand their displeasure and, yes, pain.

In short; stop being a douche.

[Blue-Jay]

105. Hey, this was ME posting above.

Forgot to log prolesunited out first. Sorry about that.

(Extra rec, though) :D

[PeaceNikki]

106. In either case, your reply was ass-kickin'.

:thumbsup:

[Blue-Jay]

108. Proles asked me "You didn't say anything mean, did you?"

hahahahahahaha!

[PeaceNikki]

109. Tell her that it was clearly not "trollish" enough to look like it was really her.

;)

[Blue-Jay]

110. She was equally amused and aghast at being called a troll.

I just laughed it off because every message board has a fair share of idiots.

[ronnykmarshall]

103. Rock on Terry!

[Imagevision]

104. SNL-Palin; "we knew a girl in school who was gay, at least we thought so...?

[Kajsa]

111. I agree, Terrya,

I also was very disappointed by Biden's comment.

imho, I think the answer is playing politics, I don't believe for
a minute that either Biden or Obama take that stance.

This was very encouraging, flies in the face of Biden's debate comment,
and I believe is much truer to how both Biden/Obama feel.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7313626&mesg_id=7313626

You are right about the stone throwing and name calling-

It sucks!
:(

:hug:

[Midlodemocrat]

113. Well said, my friend. And, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that people like me, people with all their rights intact, keep throwing the GLBT community under the bus.

:hug:

[mopinko]

115. i'm sorry, friend. i have to say i didn't bother to read most of that.

i have no use for that kind of bullshit. but i think that people on our side have a little of the kind of fear that fuels the freepers. even though at this point we are pretty sure that obama is gonna win big, we are all afraid of what might come next. so, try to have a little patience with the people whose fear is bubbling below the surface.
we are all in this together. some of us are happier about that than others. don't let the assholes get you down.

[pleah]

116. K&R

:hug:

[prolesunited]

117. The type of ugliness shown here all too often

is why I don't spend as much time here as I used to. That said, I have met so many awesome people here who really have enlarged my vision of the world. For that, I am grateful.

[racaulk]

118. Thank you, terrya.

Thank you for calmly and rationally explaining why the events that unfolded at DU since Thursday night's debate have upset and angered so many of us.

:hug:

[Hepburn]

119. I do not happen to agree with the stance which Obama and Biden have taken on gay marriage.

Yes, they are a ton better than McCain and Palin...but that does NOT mean that I am against gay marriage or that I am in 100% agreement with every stance they have. In fact, I wish to hell the marriage controversy would go away and people would get their damn noses out of the interpersonal and legal relationships of others. There is NO need for this to be an issue ~~ says the First Amendment to our constitution. Religious ceremonies? The churches/clergypersons involved have an absolute right to set a standard about what is done ~~ that IS their business. But the civil contract recognized under the law which gives certain benefits and burdens to those who wish to assume the same? Except for those directly involved, all others need to get the fuck out of that. PERIOD.

Gay marriage does not harm anyone nor should it concern anyone but the two parties who are directly involved. That goes for straight marriages, too. As long as two people are of age and have the capacity to make that contract, then EVERYONE not involved needs to butt the hell out...NOW!!!!

JMHO

[Marrah_G]

120. I'm sorry the GBLT community here was treated badly over this.

I don't know what else to say except that I am embarrassed and ashamed of those posters who are incapable of showing any compassion to fellow DUers.

I am also appalled and disgusted by those who used it to bash and attack some of our GBLT Duers.

How hard is it to say " I know that must have hurt and it really sucks that we haven't evolved more then this, thank you for sticking with the ticket despite this" or something to that effect.

Edit: I want to add that I think most of DU is fully backing Gay marriage and also hated hearing Biden say what he said. A few mean and loud people can make things seem to be what they are not. Those people should be disciplined.

[IndianaJones]

122. what does all this have to do with the Patriot Act? nt.

[JNelson6563]

125. I'm of two minds on this

Probably because I have a foot in two different camps. I will start with my similarity with the GLBT community: While I'm not gay I am an atheist, the last thing it is not only proper to discriminate for but encouraged. We never get a bone thrown to us during elections, no everyone's too busy showing they are more devout than their opponent.

My other perspective comes from spending too many years at the thankless, invisible task of being in the political trenches. I and many others have worked their guts out over these dark Bush years. We work on elections ranging from the local school boards, stte Senate and House races and everthing on up. We are hard at long after the presidential races end when nobody else even pays any attention. We work for free and against all odds often only to feel the sting of defeat.

So, with these two perspectives cited, again I say I am of two minds on this issue.

It would be very nice if those of us who are "different" could be not thrown under the bus every election, I don't see that kind of enlightenment hitting the USA anytime soon. That is the reality of it no matter how you feel. Cry "It shouldn't be that way!" all you like, changes nothing.

That leaves us with the threats from those who often do little but type out screeds on the tubes, regailing us all with their expertise. So when they are slapped in the face with the reality I have typed here what do we see? Threats. By god I'll with-hold my vote! How dare they!

Yes, just like that, a single issue, an "offense" that anyone who can fog a mirror shouldn't be surprised about, that's it, it's all over, they are willing to hand the fate of the free world over to the Rethugs cause dammit they demand their day in the sun!

I'm not sure which is more pathetic to be honest with you. The frightened masses who dictate how enlightened our candidates are allowed to be (or at least admit to) or the self-centered drama queens who will not even do the minimum of voting for the better candidate cause their feelings are hurt.

*sigh*

</rant>

Julie

[buckettgirl]

126. I have felt this way about DU for a very long time...

OP has a valid point in general. . .
This is why I rarely post here anymore. I have been a member for a number of years now (5 or so) and although I seek refuge from the political craziness that is our government here from time to time, I also find some of the most judgmental, cruel comments from people who ought to know better.

The great thing about being a liberal is being open-minded and accepting of most opinions. People can still part of a a political party/ideology and not be in absolute agreement on every subject.
People should not be flamed for this, but accepted as offering a different viewpoint to consider - its not wrong, its just different. They aren't disloyal, but creating much needed debate and critical thinking on important topics. We should be able to think for ourselves and come to our own conclusions rather than just riding on that of the party.

We ought to be smart enough to know not to perpetuate a "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality - especially since that has been a staple of the conservatives and prevailing attitude for the past 8 years.

[lapislzi]

127. I, too, was disappointed by Biden's remarks

in an otherwise flawless performance. I can understand your feeling of being thrown under the bus not once (by the ticket) but twice (by the people who are supposed to be on your side).

Political realities are an ugly thing and I wish we didn't have to face them. I hope the situation changes for the better for my GLBT friends and relations. We have more reason to be hopeful with Obama/Biden than we do with the other side.

What can I say, 'cept, "keep the faith."