Can we pick this apart, point by point?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

This editorial by Rick Moran is being spewed around the internet. It's the typical concoction of half-truths that the thugs like to present as "fact"; so the only way to nullify them as attack points is to address each with researched facts. Some are easier than others to disassemble. I'm trying to organize the thread point by point, so please reply to the appropriate statement in question, if possible.

Here are the link and the purported lies:

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/10/bidens_big_lies_all_14_of_them.html

1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted the exact same way as Obama to increase taxes on Americans
earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.


2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit
down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe
Biden attacked him for it.


3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, Drill we must. But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and
even compared offshore drilling to raping the Outer Continental Shelf.


4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same
way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that
the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it s passage.


5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that
he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean
coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.


6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John
McCain s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.


7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance
coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed
this attack is false


8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed
the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.


9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the
principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International
Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge
strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.


10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more
regulation on Fannie and Freddie.


11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was dead wrong on Iraq , because Joe
Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John
McCain has been proven right.


12. TAX INCREASES : Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn t see higher taxes, but the
Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.


13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid
out, but in reality it doesn t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which
were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of part of a
globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.


14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won't pay any more in taxes
then they did under Reagan.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

1. 1. TAX VOTE

McCain did not vote the same way...he didn't vote at all. And the tax increase on those earning $42,000 would have applied only to those who were single and without children. Those single voters who earned $42,000 would have been taxed an additional whopping $15.

[Coexist]

15. .

Biden was correct only to the extent that the resolution Obama supported would not by itself have increased taxes; it was a vote on a budget resolution that set revenue and spending targets. But he's wrong to say McCain voted the same way. The Obama campaign attempted to justify Biden's remark by pointing to a different vote, on a Senate amendment, that took place March 13. The amendment passed 99-1, with only Democratic Sen. Russ Feingold dissenting. It would have preserved some of Bush's tax cuts for lower-income people. The vote on the budget resolution in question, however, came in the wee hours of March 14 and was a mostly party-line tally, 51-44, with Obama in favor and McCain not voting.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

2. 2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING

[maseman]

3. Not one source on here

Just someone saying "WRONG." Usually you have to use sources to back up a fact check.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

4. Which is what we need, I think...

[GoddessOfGuinness]

5. 3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING

[vaberella]

18. The Dems support drilling, just not off shore.

I don't know what you mean to pick apart in the statement there. Off shore causes not only ecological problems, but the possiblity of ecological disasters and once that happens basically the decimation of resort/vacation areas within the are which affects the US directly, ie. Florida, California coast which depends a lot on their tourism.

They do support opening more oil wells in the US and tapping into our industry here. Lastly, there was a Sen or a House Rep on Rachael Maddow's show, her name escapes me but she was on there about 3 weeks ago when this oil thing comes up. Although Dems are anti off shore drilling, they accepted it in their energy bill in order to have it passed through the house <----but they had no intention of ever drilling if the nation came under their power. This was stated in the interview.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

6. 4. TROOP FUNDING

[soccermomforobama]

13. McCain's voting record on military issues

09/17/2008 Defense Authorizations Bill
S 3001 NV Bill Passed - Senate NOT VOTING
(88 - 8)

07/10/2008 Nomination of General Petraeus as Military Leader of the Middle East
PN 1641 NV Nomination Confirmed - Senate NOT VOTING
(95 - 2)
06/26/2008 Iraq and Afghanistan War Funding, Unemployment Benefits Extension, and GI Bill
HR 2642 NV Concurrence Vote Passed - Senate NOT VOTING
(92 - 6)
05/22/2008 Funding for Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan
S Amdt 4818 NV Amendment Adopted - Senate NOT VOTING
(70 - 26)
05/22/2008 Funding for Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan with Provisions Regarding Conduct and Congressional Oversight NOT VOTING
S Amdt 4817 NV Amendment Rejected - Senate
(34 - 63)
03/14/2008 Concurrent Budget Resolution
S Con Res 70 NV Resolution Passed - Senate NOT VOTING
(51 - 44)
12/18/2007 Iraq Withdrawal Amendment
S Amdt 3875 N Amendment Rejected - Senate NO
(24 - 71)
11/16/2007 Supplemental Appropriations for the Department of Defense and Timeline for Withdrawal from Iraq
HR 4156 NV Cloture Not Invoked - Senate NOT VOTING
(53 - 45)
11/16/2007 Emergency Supplemental Appropriations for the Department of Defense
S 2340 NV Cloture Not Invoked - Senate NOT VOTING
(45 - 53)
10/24/2007 Permanent Residence for Certain Undocumented Immigrants
S 2205 NV Cloture Not Invoked - Senate NOT VOTING
(52 - 44)
10/01/2007 National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008
HR 1585 NV Bill Passed - Senate NOT VOTING
(92 - 3)
09/21/2007 Iraq Troop Reduction Amendment
S Amdt 2898 N Amendment Rejected - Senate NO
(47 - 47)
09/19/2007 Time Between Troop Deployments
S Amdt 2909 N Amendment Rejected - Senate NO
(56 - 44)
07/18/2007 Iraq Troop Reduction
S Amdt 2087 N Cloture Not Invoked - Senate NO
(52 - 47)
05/24/2007 Emergency Departmental Supplemental Appropriations Bill of 2007
HR 2206 Y Concurrence Vote Passed - Senate YES
(80 - 14)
03/27/2007 Iraq Withdrawal Amendment
HR 1591 Y Amendment Rejected - Senate YES
(48 - 50)
03/15/2007 United States Policy in Iraq Resolution of 2007
S J Res 9 NV Resolution Failed - Senate NOT VOTING
(48 - 50)
09/28/2006 Habeas Review Amendment
S 3930 N Amemendment Adopted - Senate NO
(48 - 51)
09/28/2006 Military Commissions Amendment
S 3930 N Amendment Rejected - Senate NO
(47 - 52)
09/28/2006 Oversight of CIA Interrogation and Detention Amendment
S 3930 N Amendment Rejected - Senate NO
(46 - 53)
09/28/2006 Military Commissions Act of 2006
S 3930 Y Bill Passed - Senate YES
(65 - 34)
09/06/2006 Cluster Munitions Amendment
HR 5631 N Amendment Rejected - Senate NO
(30 - 70)
06/22/2006 Troop Redeployment Amendment
S 2766 N Amendment Rejected - Senate NO
(13 - 86)
02/02/2006 Military Funding and Tax Cuts Amendment
HR 4297 N Motion Failed - Senate NO
(44 - 53)
05/21/2004 Condemning Iraq Abuse of Prisoners resolution
SRes 356 NV Resolution Adopted - Senate NOT VOTING
(92 - 0)
10/11/2002 Use of Military Force Against Iraq
H J Res 114 Y Joint Resolution Adopted - Senate YES
(77 - 23)

source: http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=53270&type=category&category=47&go.x=11&go.y=12

[mscuedawg]

21. Thank you..I love being "armed" with the truth!

edited to Welcome you to DU! :hi:

[soccermomforobama]

16. more info from factcheck.org

McCain did vote against the troop-funding bill in question, H.R. 1591, on March 29, 2007, when it originally cleared the Senate. The vote to which we referred, and which McCain missed, was a later vote on the House-Senate compromise version of the same bill, on April 26, 2007. McCain opposed the bill, which Obama supported, because it contained language calling for withdrawal of troops from Iraq. Biden was responding to Palin's accusation that "Obama voted against funding troops." Obama voted for the bill March 29 and April 26, and then on May 24, 2007, following a veto by President Bush, Obama voted against a similar troop-funding bill, H.R. 2206, that lacked any withdrawal language.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

7. 5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL

[Coexist]

20. .

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html

Biden claimed a comment he made about "clean coal" was taken out of context:

Biden: My record for 25 years has supported clean coal technology. A comment made in a rope line was taken out of context. I was talking about exporting that technology to China so when they burn their dirty coal, it won't be as dirty, it will be clean.

Was it really taken out of context? Here’s the full exchange, which took place while Biden was shaking hands with voters along a rope line in Ohio.

Woman: Wind and solar are flourishing here in Ohio, why are you supporting clean coal?
Biden: We’re not supporting clean coal. Guess what? China’s building two every week, two dirty coal plants, and it’s polluting the United States. It’s causing people to die.

Obama-Biden campaign spokesman David Wade later said that “Biden’s point is that China is building coal plants with outdated technology every day, and the United States needs to lead by developing clean coal technologies.”

Whatever Biden meant or didn’t mean to say on the rope line, he has supported clean coal in the past. When the McCain camp used this one remark from Biden as the basis for a TV ad saying that Obama-Biden oppose clean coal, we said the claim was false. Obama’s position in favor of clean coal has been clear, and pushing for the technology has been part of his energy policy.

[mscuedawg]

8. 4. Troop Funding

http://ofbyandforthepeople.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/john-mccains-voting-record/

This, if any, should make Americans :mad:, esp after CT (condescending twit, Palin) accused Obama/Biden of waving a white flag...AND after McCain uses his POW status for his political gain...How DARE he stand there, look in those cameras and say that the troops know he loves them and will care for them...

These men and women know the truth: http://www.votevets.org/index_html

[Coexist]

17. .

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html

Correction Oct 3: This article originally faulted Biden for saying that McCain had voted "the exact same way” as Obama on a controversial troop funding bill. We said that McCain was absent for the vote and so didn't vote at all. Biden was, however, correct.

McCain did vote against the troop-funding bill in question, H.R. 1591, on March 29, 2007, when it originally cleared the Senate. The vote to which we referred, and which McCain missed, was a later vote on the House-Senate compromise version of the same bill, on April 26, 2007. McCain opposed the bill, which Obama supported, because it contained language calling for withdrawal of troops from Iraq. Biden was responding to Palin's accusation that "Obama voted against funding troops." Obama voted for the bill March 29 and April 26, and then on May 24, 2007, following a veto by President Bush, Obama voted against a similar troop-funding bill, H.R. 2206, that lacked any withdrawal language.

[soccermomforobama]

9. 9. Afghanistan

Biden was correct.

"The new top U.S. commander in Afghanistan said yesterday that more U.S. troops are urgently required to combat a worsening insurgency, but he stated emphatically that no Iraq-style “surge” of forces will end the conflict there."

"“Afghanistan is not Iraq,” said Gen. David McKiernan, who led ground forces during the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003 and took over four months ago as head of the NATO-led coalition in Afghanistan."

"“The word I don't use for Afghanistan is 'surge,' ” McKiernan emphasized, saying that what is required instead is a “sustained commitment” to a counterinsurgency effort that could last many more years and would ultimately require a political, not military, solution."

source: http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20081002/news_1n2afghan.html

[GoddessOfGuinness]

10. 6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES

[Coexist]

24. .

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html

Biden said four times that McCain had voted 20 times against funding alternative energy. However, in analyzing the Obama campaign's list of votes after the first presidential debate, we found the number was actually 11. In the other instances the Obama-Biden campaign cites, McCain voted not against alternative energy but against mandatory use of alternative energy, or he voted in favor of allowing exemptions from these mandates.


... which to me, is 20 votes against alternative energy

[GoddessOfGuinness]

11. 7. HEALTH INSURANCE

[vaberella]

23. This has already been discussed.

Okay, first off Biden has exaggerated but the person's statement above incorrectly understood the correction.

Biden did say it would tax you...however it actually taxes the employer. Which means that you end up feeling the tax burden anyway. Something those idiots don't tell you because you'd have to pay for that tax that your employer is paying for. So although the tax is an indirect tax you feel the burden so it's like you are paying the tax. Depending on how much the tax is, the employer CAN drop the plan for something cheaper, resulting in the sort of market affect of the health insurance.

The $5000 break doesn't cover most health plans...you'll see in a thread discussing this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7301027

[maseman]

12. In all fairness Factcheck is a pretty good place

Let's face it both candidates had a few "zingers" that were bordeline or wrong.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html

Bottom line is you look at Factcheck and Palin was REALLY off base on many many things. Biden got tripped on some of the procedural votes in the Senate and who voted for what.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

14. That is a good source...

I'm a little concerned that the "unconditional meeting with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad" statement that Obama made ages ago could come back to haunt. We know what he meant; but the "Obama is a muslin" set would love to jump on this.

Interestingly, I found a source (have to see if I can find it again) which said McCain didn't vote at all on the proposed tax hike for single childless people earning $42,000.

[vaberella]

25. When you read factcheck you realize that Palin didn't know ANYTHING.

That was frightening.

I'm like Biden exaggerated a little. I remember the 80 Billion commenta nd new it was 79 Billion that's on average thougha nd doesn't count the recent 30 Million dollar deal that Iraq just recently acquired by signing a contract with China for oil. Majority of Biden's points were true with the slights exaggeration. Palin was just lieing. Jeez.

[Coexist]

19. 10.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html

McCain in the Vanguard of Mortgage Reform?


Palin said that McCain had sounded the alarm on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac two years ago.

Palin: We need to look back, even two years ago, and we need to be appreciative of John McCain's call for reform with Fannie Mae, with Freddie Mac, with the mortgage-lenders, too, who were starting to really kind of rear that head of abuse.

Palin is referring to a bill that would have increased oversight on Fannie and Freddie. In our recent article about assigning blame for the crisis, we found that by the time McCain added his name to the bill as a cosponsor, the collapse was well underway. Home prices began falling only two months later. Our colleagues at PolitiFact also questioned this claim.

[Coexist]

22. 13. bailout

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/23/obama_outline_principles_for_b.html

Obama's proposed additions include:


A ban on generous payouts for "irresponsible CEOs on Wall Street." Obama warned: "There has been talk that some CEOs may refuse to cooperate with this plan if they have to forgo multimillion-dollar salaries. I cannot imagine a position more selfish and greedy at a time of national crisis. And I would like to speak directly to those CEOs right now: Do not make that mistake."


Replacing Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson's absolute authority over the bailout's execution with a bipartisan independent board. Obama noted that Paulson signaled during testimony this morning that he may be open to the broadening idea.


An investor stake for taxpayers. "The American people should share in the upside as Wall Street recovers," Obama said, adding, "There are different ways to accomplish this."


Assistance for people who are in danger of foreclosure. He outlined several possible ways to provide aid, including giving the government the authority to purchase mortgages directly, instead of the mortgage-backed securities that have cause the banking woes.


... those were included.