Some completely random thoughts on gays, lesbians, Obama and the election

[ruggerson]

1) The overwhelming majority of the GLBT community will vote Obama/Biden. It is an imperfect ticket, but so are all of them. It's the best we've had in a long time, and NO ticket is perfectly aligned with an individual voter's particular, singular set of priorities.

2) GLBT voters are just as diverse as hetero ones. Many don't vote solely on GLBT issues. Many are equally as concerned with jobs, the war, the economy, civil liberty erosion, public education and US policies on torture. The gay communitiy is not some monolithic block, all moving lockstep in one direction. In other words, they are regular Americans.

3) The success of Obama/Biden means a return to sanity for all of us in many, many ways. The thought of McCain/Palin in power is a nightmare on a thousand different levels.

4) It is perfectly appropriate for BOTH gay and straight voters to be outraged, even in the middle of a close election, if the candidates they support issue mealy mouthed, two sided bullshit statements on issues concerning gay equality. That's what democracy is all about - speaking your mind, pushing your representatives to do the right thing.

5) Barack Obama himself has advocated that the gay community PUSH him to do the right thing. He has said, in unequivocal terms, it's not his job to be a gay civil rights leader. It's his job to get elected President and it's the job of gay civil rights leaders, and average gay and straight citizens, to push the country and him in the right direction.

6) It's perfectly legitimate to believe that our Democratic leaders should be FRAMING the issue of marriage equality better - that they have let the right frame the meme for too long and that framing is the only reason this still has any potency as a wedge issue. There is a basic lack of leadership in explaining to the average flyover voter that there is a big difference between religious marriage and civil marriage. Too many progressive politicians fall into the trap of following the meme the rightwing sets in place and talking about this issue in terms of religious beliefs. It is appropriate to keep hammering the men and women ON OUR SIDE, until they start explaining the basics of the issue properly to the American public.

7) Bigotry towards gays, just like towards African Americans, women, Jews, Muslims or any other group, should never be accepted by people who consider themselves progressives. On a discussion board such as this one, it is reasonable to hope that there be a non-merciful one strike rule.

8) Don't ask the LGBT community to shut up about issues that affect their family's survival. Even during an election cycle.

9) Let's all take the next month and work our respective asses off to get Obama/Biden elected. If you choose to express yourself politically by working against Prop 8 in CA, great. If you choose to work on the senate race in NC and get Liddy Dole banished for good, more power to you. We each contribute in our own fashion.

10) If you're straight, you ARE the gay and lesbian community. Your sister could get thrown out of the army. Your nephew could lose his job in a fragile economy. Your son and his partner could have an overzealous prosecutor try to take their kids away from them. You are them and they are you. Gay and lesbian equality is YOUR issue too.

[Fran Kubelik]

1. I love you.

:hug:

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. Thank you. n/t

[woo me with science]

3. Beautiful post. Thanks. nt

[Starry Messenger]

4. #7

Should be written into the rules here at DU. What an awful day this has been. :hug:

[liberalmuse]

5. If those are completely random thoughts...

I'm dying to see what your highly organized thoughts look like.
:applause:

[grantcart]

7. lol

[grantcart]

6. # 10

#10 Everyone at DU who understands that we cannot lead with GLBT issues at the top of the public agenda in a national campaign because too many places still suffer from religious propoganda on the issue should be committed that the Obama/Biden administration should take early action on concrete steps on GLBT issues. They should be early, persistent and ongoing. It doesn't have to start on 1/21/09 but April is too late. Something must be started in Feb/Mar, whether it is Fed employees who have legal marriages, CU or in the military.

[enigmatic]

8. Post Of the Day

Actually, Post Of The Year.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

9. Very nice. K&R (you've got two #3s, though)

[ruggerson]

12. the lingering effects

of too much windowpane as a 15 year old. Thanks, I fixed it. :)

[billyoc]

10. Good points. A lot of us are only campaigning against McCain, you know.

[Matariki]

11. Great post

Nice to read after a slew of cruel posts. Thank you.

[MinneapolisMatt]

13. Thank you!

xoxoxo

and a big K&R!!

[racaulk]

14. Most excellent post.

Thank you for this. :thumbsup:

:pals:

[Solon]

15. Your thoughts coincide with my own on this, good post!

:applause:

[Forkboy]

16. If #10 doesn't get through I don't know what will.

Great post.

[QC]

17. This stupid queer is proud to recommend this wonderful post! n/t

[pnwmom]

18. Great post! Adding to #10, I think we can appeal to straights' self interest.

Do they want to unknowingly end up -- or have their straight children end up -- in marriages to gay people who are simply trying to meet society's expectations? (And who, as a result of what society has taught them, are filled with shame and even self-hate?)

Of course gay men and women want to be able to have committed relationships and families. If they can't form these families with their chosen partners, then they'll have children the way they always have -- with unsuspecting straight people.

Does even the most fervent right winger really want that? Are they ready to sacrifice the happiness of themselves or their adult children to the logical result of their (male/female marriage) ideals?

[ruggerson]

32. interesting idea

but it hinges on people actually being intelligent and seeing cause and consequence to public policy. A rarity, unfortunately.

[H2O Man]

19. Nominated.

Thank you.

[TheDonkey]

20. Trying to shame our heterosexual allies is NOT the best strategy to promote gay rights

I'm very grateful for the straight DUers that support gay rights. They may not support gay marriage like Obama or Biden but they support equality and inclusiveness and we need them.

[No Elephants]

23. Equality means gays can get a marriage license or no one can get one. IMO, you are kidding yourself

if you think you are for equality, yet oppose the right of gays to marry. Either we all have it or none of us have it.

On edit: That is the generic "you," not any individual poster.

[No Elephants]

21. I am hetero and I have known for quite a while that GBLT issues are human rights issues. For one

thing, an unjust society is an unjust society, no matter who the victims of the injustice are. And an unjust society is not one in which I want to live. For another, we all either are gay or have gays in our families or among our beloved friends--probably at least two out of those three. Instead of ranting at each other as though this were all about Obama, how about if our gay posters suggest some action items for us? Some good organizations to which we can donate and for which we can volunteer between elections, for example. I've been donating to one simply because a gay friend recommended it as worthy. Alert us to states in which legislation is pending and give us the email addresses and phone numbers of people to contact. Things like that. That is going to do more than all the ranting in the world.

[Indenturedebtor]

22. K+R n/t

[A-Schwarzenegger]

24. K&R. It's my belief this place grew mainly out of a hatred of BushCo

rather than a love of humankind. I think the homophobia that
blossoms here at times like this (and sexism in other
circumstances) comes from that basic hatred,
now eight years of hatred. The danger with such passionate
hatred of a hateful enemy is becoming hateful, too,
in the name of winning over being humane.

Progressivism isnt built on hatred of the other,
it's built on being able to put yourself in another person's
shoes and sense their suffering, relate their suffering to
your own so to work to ease it, sometimes just by identifying.
Hatred & intolerance is "if youre not with us,
youre against us" & results in just the kind of shut-up
sleepwalking who-me? homophobia obvious around here today.

"I dont hate you or your sexuality, I'm all for you getting
everything you want and deserve, but for now SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Swallow your pain and hurt, choke on it if you have to, but
SHUT THE FUCK UP! Start bitching again in 31 days!"

It's a minority, but it doesnt take much to poison the well.
How many gays here today have said they wont vote for Obama/
Biden because of the marriage issue?

People have a hard time holding two powerful & conflicting
thoughts in their mind at once--I am hurt by what you said,
but I'm still with you overall and on your side. "No, to be
on my side, you cannot say anything negative about our side,
you must be quiet until we tell you it is safe to speak."

And I dont even believe anybody advocating shutting up really
believes those troublesome gays are going to ruin or lose
the election or anything close to it. I do believe it's a sign
of that vein of hatred for BushCo leaking out into a greater hatred
for anybody who doesnt put the hatred of Bush above everything else, including empathy for one another's suffering, as you put it so
lovingly and beautifully.

[ruggerson]

27. Good post

some very provocative ideas - thanks.

[QC]

28. One of the best posts I have seen in a long time.

I have often thought, in the midst of DU's uglier moments, that anti-right does not necessarily equal left, in other words, that there are many people here who are not in any way progressive but who simply do not like Bush.

Glad to see that someone else has noticed it, too.

[Fran Kubelik]

30. I have really been enjoying your posts.

Thank you for your eloquence.

[Forkboy]

36. Very insightful post.

Thanks.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

39. Thank you all.

Peace.

[Imagevision]

25. Absolutely, It is perfectly appropriate for BOTH gay and straight voters to be outraged

[dickthegrouch]

26. A voice of reason, Thanks Ruggerson

I'm just stunned by what I started in another thread.

I am glad this has more recommendations and I'm humbled that so many others came to assist when I couldn't cope any longer.

I love you, Ruggerson

Dick

[ulysses]

29. well put, ruggerson.

Haven't always agreed with your pov, but I'm happy to rec this. :thumbsup:

[terrya]

31. Thank you for your post.

I'll admit it...it hurts me to be told to "shut up" when I comment about things that, as a gay man, are important to me and the GLBT community. It's hurting me to see the stuff I've read the past 24 hours here. I read these things and I get the impression that as a gay man, I'm not wanted, my opinion is worthless, and that if I dare to say anything that would be perceived as critical to our nominees, I'm some sort of traitor who is going to put McCain and Sarah Palin in the White House.

I'm as big of a supporter of Barack Obama and Joe Biden as anyone on DU. There is nothing more I want than to see these two outstanding men win on November 4th and to solve so many of the problems facing this country. And to restore honor and decency in the White House again. But it hurts to see people telling me to shut up, posting loyalty oaths that say you're somehow the enemy if you criticize our candidates for something they publically said.

I've posted that I should make myself scarce around here. Yes, the homophobia gets to me. It's gets to me, because, goddammit, I'm NOT at Free Republic. THEY are the ones who engage in that kind of hate and bigotry. We should be better than that. I'm in a frame of mind where I do think that GLBT people here aren't welcome, our opinions don't matter, we aren't valued as Democrats. I've invested too much time here that it is very difficult to permanetly leave Democratic Underground. But this is one of those times where I feel that I probably should.

Thank you for your post, ruggerson. I appreciate, from the bottom of my heart, your posting these words. And for letting me to talk a bit.

[Beausoir]

33. Great post. Thank you.

[donco6]

34. If Palin gets in, we're all WAY worse off.

Not just GLBT, though we tend to be easy scapegoats. I believe we have a better shot at making strides with Obama in office than not.

[MadMaddie]

35. Well done Ruggerson!

I agree with evything that you have stated and it is the right way to pursue the GLBT issues in this country.

[cindyw]

37. Very well said.

Kick and recommend

[WillyT]

38. Great Post Ruggerson !!! - K & R !!! - A Question About The Framing...

Isn't it the state (civil authority) that actually marries, or legitimizes a marriage with all its attendant benefits?

I know that churches perform wedding ceremonies, but so do judges. And the church wedding means nothing if not validated by the state.

So isn't this a matter of separation of church and state?

I mean if we don't have religious tests for holding office, why would we have one for marriage? Why should the religious feelings, opinions, doctrine, etc. of SOME people be allowed to intrude into state business, and civil rights in general?

If two people, ANY two people, want to get married, they should by rights be allowed to go before a judge and get married. And though they may not be able to have a wedding performed at just ANY church, perhaps even their own, they would be able to find some progressive churches that will marry them if that is their desire.

And just like we cannot have the state dictate to the Churches that every one of them has to permit gay marriage because of the separation of church and state, conversely the churches should not be able to dictate to the state that they cannot perform and recognize gay marriage.

Am I making any sense here?

:shrug:

:hi: