I support the right of same sex couples to marry

[CreekDog]

this poll is not about figuring out which side has more support here, but about how widespread the support here really is AND IT IS.

[billyoc]

1. Where's "I'm a craven, triangulating coward"?

[CreekDog]

3. i don't know.

:shrug:

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. Quite the pity that Obama and Biden could not answer this poll

Them, and a very large number of DU regulars.

[thunder rising]

5. Get over it

[CreekDog]

10. nobody needs or should get over anything, but the right would love nothing but for us to fight

[Cherchez la Femme]

15. Yep. Now is not the time

There will be plenty of time to discuss this all later.

[TechBear_Seattle]

13. Yeah, being prohibited by law from full equality is something we must "get over."

Get over yourself.

[CreekDog]

21. when we protect each other's rights, we protect our own

we shouldn't get over civil rights issues, but we should do what we can to advance them, and sometimes that isn't the perfect thing, but the best option instead.

[TechBear_Seattle]

27. WHO THE FUCK IS DEFENDING OUR RIGHTS?

When Obama and now Biden have stated categorically and in very clear language, on national television, that they oppose my rights as an American citizen and a human being, I should not be upset? That is the point: THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS GONE OUT OF ITS WAY TO CALL MY RIGHTS DISPOSABLE AND IRRELEVANT.

Now, please explain why that should not piss me off.

[CreekDog]

28. i'm defending your rights. i support candidates that do and i'm voting against prop 8

and i've got lots of company.

at the presidential level, i don't have anyone who can win that supports gay marriage (yet).

[TechBear_Seattle]

30. And you stridently support candidates to definitely do not

And then you have the temerity to get pissy when others point this out.

Color me unimpressed.

[CreekDog]

32. i belong to a group worse off than yours

candidates almost never even mention my group, but it is more impoverished, more unequal, more unemployed and more discriminated against than any other.

(and by the way, this isn't to impress you but to answer your previous post)

and are you saying Obama and Biden should not be supported?

[TechBear_Seattle]

35. Are they saying that they oppose the rights of this unnamed other group?

Have they gone on record saying that, because you are a member of this group, it is perfectly reasonable to deny you fundamental human rights?

If they did, would you still blindly support them?

[CreekDog]

46. when you stop talking to me like this, we can talk, until then

find someone else to talk down to.

[TechBear_Seattle]

51. Then stop talking down to me, and treating fundamental human rights as irrelevant n/t

[CreekDog]

54. i'm not doing anything of the sort

but you are talking down to me by telling me what i think.

[Cherchez la Femme]

60. What's s/he supposed to be? Deferential?

S/he wasn't talking to you in any personally rude way, and has every reason to be outraged. TechBear didn't call you names, didn't swear at you -- so what exactly is your beef?

"Color me unimpressed" is enough to make you clutch your pearls and, 'a la Condi Rice, imply that s/he is impugning you?
You need to grow a carapace. This is DU :eyes:

[CreekDog]

67. she was telling me what i think

"color me unimpressed" was not the phrase that bothered me, i said in another post that i didn't write to impress that poster.

on the other hand, if you merely want to flame me, that is what you are doing, and nothing more.

if you think it helps the movement to flame someone who advocates for gay marriage, who votes in favor of it and of candidates that will support it, go ahead --if you think that's helpful. :eyes:

[anigbrowl]

34. That's simply not true

Biden said you should have all the same rights as a married person if you're in a civil union. What you won't get from this ticket is the promise of federal action to redefine marriage legally - partly for electoral reasons, partly because such a law would be the subject of a court challenge before the ink was dry.

I'm in favor of the right to marry, which is why I'm against prop 8 here in California - but you are mischaracterizing the position of the Democratic party significantly. Is it really so wrong to work on getting civil union rights to be functionally identical for now and pursue the terminological ones later?

[TechBear_Seattle]

38. Separate is not equal

I would call bullshit on anyone who wanted to bring Jim Crow racial segregation back into practice, and I call bullshit on anyone who wants to bring Jim Crow marriage segregation into practice. The law calls it marriage and has done so for more than two hundred years; if it is good enough for mixed-sex couples, then it is good enough for me. Or do you believe, as so many around here seem to believe, that allowing same-sex couples to have "marriage" alongside you will somehow taint the institution and demean the hundreds of rights, protections, priviledges and perqs that go with it?

Marriage is a human right, not a heterosexual right.

[anigbrowl]

45. Guess you didn't bother to read my message properly

so I'm not going to bother replying to yours properly.

[TechBear_Seattle]

50. "Civil unions" are segregationist bullshit

When someone starts pushing "civil unions," I don't need to read any further.

[CreekDog]

55. you realize that Rosa Park's bus ride was a calculated thing

they didn't just decide they were being treated wrongly and put her on a bus hours later.

it was planned and timed to advance a cause and it wasn't tried until it could.

it's not enough to be right.

[Cherchez la Femme]

64. So they were omniscient?

How, exactly, did they 'know' it would succeed?


And what does it matter if it was planned or not?
These are Freeper talking points to demean Rosa Parks and what she did. The only thing that matters is that she did it, she stood up to them and talked Truth and Right to power.

[CreekDog]

66. don't call me a freeper and don't turn my post into a straw man

i don't argue with what they did and because they did it this way it did succeed. they chose their moment carefully timing it as best as they could to succeed.

look, when you are dealing with a system that is wrong, it's NOT ENOUGH TO BE RIGHT AND SAY SO, that doesn't change the system.

so yes, the civil rights movement for African Americans was planned and calculated with very educated leaders thinking carefully about what cases, what actions to take that would persuade or make points that would result in gains for African Americans. it should be the textbook for anyone that seeks greater civil rights because it worked, it was nonviolent and it succeeded.

unfortunately it did not succeed because it was right, it succeeded because people made wise and shrewd decisions.

and next time, try an actual argument instead of calling my points freeper talking points --that just displays your ignorance about what actually happened.

[anigbrowl]

56. I wasn't pushing civil unions. You're full of it - and full of yourself too.

[Cherchez la Femme]

39. Civil unions are acceptable?

Fine, then abolish Marriage and let Civil Unions be the only option for EVERYBODY.

Same fucking thing as Separate but Equal Rest Rooms and water fountains.
God-damned fucking bullshit.

[anigbrowl]

44. I could live with civil unions for everyone

But would it be better to get the same rights as marriage for them or not? I think eventually people will come to view them as the same thing by default, but it's going to take a gfew years yet because people are precious about definitions, and the religious types can't handle the idea that an earthly legislature can just rewrite bits of the dictionary.

you think people who have interracial relationships don't still run into prejudice? People change slowly.

[Cherchez la Femme]

65. Fine for you, but you're the minority

What people have to 'view as the same thing by default' is ANY person, no matter what race, creed, gender, or sexual orientation. THAT'S what's important.

And where did I ever say or even imply that mixed race couples are free of prejudice??
Get real.

[Cherchez la Femme]

63. What do principles matter, eh?

"Is it really so wrong to work on getting civil union rights to be functionally identical for now and pursue the terminological ones later?"

Jesus, is it SO difficult to understand? Either you, as a homo sapien and U.S. citizen, are entitled to the same, exact, letter-perfect, equal Human Rights as any other U.S. citizen of ANY race or creed

or you're not.

[Cherchez la Femme]

22. See my above comment, TechBear

I have a very vested interest in this, but CreekDog was right -- this is an issue to be addressed, but from what I've seen most LGBT realize now is not the time to push it.
Sen. Obama deliberately ignoring the LGBT community in the primary race WAS rather insulting however; still, from any angle, the Democratic ticket is the best ticket for equal rights for us.

I'm not sure if Thunder Rising is saying get over Obama/Biden not answering the question (the DU regulars are another story, however!) or get over being upset about homophobia, but I'll give her/him the benefit of the doubt right now.
But ANY Dem who thinks that equal rights are not needed for ALL U.S. citizens are clearly in the wrong party.
If Democratic party members, like many elected Dem politicians, aren't for that then they aren't for anything in our party. It's the same as saying non-whites, because of their melanin, do not deserve equal right either.

Some "Christians". Their Old Testament --which was used to defend slavery, as we all know-- be damned.

Yes I DID say that.
And I'm a Christian, a member of The Brethren (yeah, I *and* they know it's a patriarchal name and they're working on changing it), with Buddhism thrown in. Both, in their true, altruistic forms, are VERY compatible as the original Buddhism had no Godhead nor denied one or demanded their followers worship certain ones.

[TechBear_Seattle]

24. When will be the right time?

How much longer must bigotry remain unchallengeable within the Democratic Party?

This is EXACTLY why I have so little respect or like for the party. At least the Republicans are honest in being bigots: the Democrats like to promise that some day our issues will be addressed provided we wait until poverty is extinguished and the environment is guaranteed protected and racism and sexism no longer exist.

I am NOT fucking waiting for my fundamental human rights to be acknowledged. If the Democratic Party refuses to help, then screw them. Go ahead: be a quisling. Justify how your being a human being is so much less important than anything else that is going on, and has always been, and very likely always will be as far as the party is concerned. Be a good little Log Cabin Democrat.

I refuse.

[anigbrowl]

36. Then why are you here?

If you hate the Democratic party so much and you think it's so awful, what are you here? Me I think you're overstating the case, misrepresenting what was said last night, pretending to be all surprised about it when you knew perfectly well this was the stated position the day before, and generally having a drama moment.

[TechBear_Seattle]

43. Honestly, what are the options?

The Republicans want me burned at the stake, in a public square at noon. The Democrats only want to break my legs and leave me to fend for myself off in the woods, where they can't hear me screaming for help. When I say that I would rather not have any bone broken, I'm told to shut up and take it or go over to the Republicans.

It's not like gay people have any fucking choice in the matter, is there?

[anigbrowl]

48. Oh FFS. Come back when your drama fit is over.

I'm actually seriously interested in this issue, but 'Democrats want to break my legs...' - give a rest. Move to California and get married already, with the help of a Democrat. I'll even give you a tour of San francisco.

[Cherchez la Femme]

37. I'm not sure Obama/Biden not answering IS bigotry.

Cowardice? Absolutely.
But unfortunately, in this election and with this electorate, it's necessary.


HOWEVER

if/when AFTER Obama/Biden win they DON'T adddress it and ensure our equal rights via the Constitution then enough is enough. Then it will be time to join another party, one who takes us and our needs seriously and not treat us like the 'pukes treat their Reich-Wing Xtians: lots of kiss-ass promises and never one promised piece of legislation.


Right now, though, we MUST be pragmatic -- to sit out this election and let Palin/McBush win would not only be suicide-to a death sentence for the LGBT community but for most of,
if not the entirety of,
the world.


I do understand your anger, it's a very difficult thing to stomach.
I MUST defend them now, but this is their last chance!

Fucking PERIOD.

[TechBear_Seattle]

40. They have answered, in no uncertain terms: NO SAME-SEX MARRIAGE

How much clearer do you need?

[Cherchez la Femme]

58. As you said above

What are the options??

I'm just hoping they're being politically expedient and yeah, LYING to the country to appeal to the bigots and homophobes: aka 'middle America'.

But, may I reiterate and expound a little:

THIS IS THEIR LAST FUCKING CHANCE

If we get a veto-proof Democratic majority in Congress, even WITHOUT the executive branch (but hopefully with!)

and then, if we finally do not then get full Constitutional Rights in parity with every other U.S. Citizen

--then there is NO FUCKING HOPE

--there is NO FUCKING REASON for us to continue to support the Democratic Party any further

--THERE IS NO FUCKING USE NOR ANY SENSE TO THEIR PALAVER ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ANYBODY
AND OH-HOW-MUCH-THEY'RE-*FOR*-THESE-EQUAL-RIGHTS-
FOR SOME!


Yeah, I know I'm yelling, but this is something I MUST yell about.

Last fucking chance. Otherwise, fuck them.
We've suffered long enough and, after this, the good of the world is going to have to look out for itself -- we can no longer 'save the world' (or help save it) while being continually trodden upon.
We don't get our rights, we should leave the Party en masse -- and the stats of gay people in the population are around 10***
which is a HELL of a lot more than the 'pukes deluded base: their babbling Evangelicals and we all saw what happened when a small portion of them 'sat out' the last election!

***and out of that 10%, the Log Cabin's would be a fraction of a fraction of a fraction.
Bloody fools.

[CreekDog]

53. the right time has nothing to do with it (unfortunately)

the time it will happen is something different altogether.

[JeffR]

4. Where the Hell Yes option?

Sometimes I wonder what century this is.

[CreekDog]

8. i put it in all caps

:shrug: i make a sucky activist.

[JeffR]

11. Not at all. Just so many all caps posts this year that I hardly notice

the caps anymore.
Good thread.
:toast:

[jenmito]

6. Yes.

[steve2470]

7. k and r nt

[Fran Kubelik]

9. awesome

:thumbsup:

[TexasObserver]

12. I support the right of same sex couples to marry

[Cherchez la Femme]

14. What? No "HELL YEAH!" ??!!1!!

:D

[leftofcool]

16. No Hell Yes?

[nam78_two]

18. lol-I swear I didn't crib from your answer

We were typing at the same time :toast:...

[nam78_two]

17. Hell YES.nt

[Starry Messenger]

19. kick

[demigoddess]

20. I would love two gay guys to marry and move in next door, it would

really improve the neighborhood.

[VAliberal]

23. Presbyterian minister - yep

[apocalypsehow]

25. YES. n/t.

[Starry Messenger]

26. Hell to the YES!!

Gay rights=human rights.

[Phredicles]

29. Yes! Mrs. Phredicles & I have been married 20 years, and I don't see

why our marriage needs to be "protected" from our gay fellow citizens having the same rights we enjoy and take for granted.

For what it's worth, I think we're on the verge of a sea change in people's attitudes on this point. California's loathesome Prop. 8 looks to be trailing in the polls; I'm hoping it means voters are tired of being told to scapegoat people who after all aren't hurting anyone. But I sympathize with the feeling that it's not coming soon enough.

[VenusRising]

31. Yes.

[baldguy]

33. The govt should get out of the marriage business.

The state has no place granting its blessing on one couple who falls in love, and withholding it from another.

[CreekDog]

49. this is my position too

the government can allow a government recognized contractual relationship/agreement between two people and leave it at that.

[Reterr]

41. Yes of course and Obama and Biden do as well I am convinced

No truly sane/educated person could be against gay marriage.
It is just that in this country right now you have a significant portion of the electorate (some of them even Democrats :eyes:) who are just not ready to support gay marriage because they have fucked up beliefs and ideas. It is discrimination and it is hate. I hate that our party has to take a wimpy, dishonorable stance on this.

But..I live in TN, my brother is gay and TN is home to some of the scariest fundy movements out there. The Latter Rain movement and other such crazies that we see in the deep south (I have lived in the south all my life) terrify me. And these people grow more powerful and scarier under Republican administrations and the path they are on now terrifies me. Most people who live in states that are less crazy probably don't even realize how huge a movement these people constitute. A Palin victory is only going to drive this country even deeper into a very dark and scary place.

I wasn't an Obama supporter during the primaries, but I like him and I think the reason he/Biden do this is the reason every other Dem does. They are afraid of negative results during the election, because there are a lot of bigots out there. I don't care for that wimpiness, but at the end of the day I know it stems from wimpiness. But the Republicans are getting more and more terrifyingly Christo-fascistic every day and the thought of a Palin administration (because "you betcha" that is what it will be even if that old dude is flitting about somewhere in the background) terrifies me.
So much so that some days I feel I am just frozen with terror. This is the unvarnished truth: I took a day off work last week because I just became so scared and depressed over the idea of a McCain-Palin win.

Maybe some of the stuff I have seen has impacted me, but for gay people (and hispanics) almost more than any other groups of people out there, I personally believe that the Palin wing of the Republicans presents a threat so great that I would accept many less atttractive alternatives than the Obama-Biden ticket to not see these guys in power. Or I have lived in the deep south for too much of my life and am paranoid. I am not sure any more.

I have been an ardent supporter of gay rights on DU and IRL. I have no reason to pretend about any of this. My brother is my baby. I have never felt as protective of anyone as I do of him and every story out there about a hate-crime against a gay kid usually makes me so nauseous I can't function and brings on a panic attack I cen't even get over for hours.

This is why the Palin ticket frightens me so much. If that ticket wins I will make sure that my brother moves to Canada with me. Anyway, I didn't actually have a point there I guess. It was mostly stream of consciousness. I get why people are offended or hurt. I am just really scared by Palin etc. and think Obama and Biden are decent, well-meaning guys for all their flaws and have no difficulty fully supporting their ticket over that other one.

[LeftyMom]

42. I'd rather see a thread where the marriage opponents show themselves

The better to kick their disgusting asses.

[Lucy Goosey]

47. Absolutely, yes! But I'm Canadian...

so I'm not sure I count.

[ismnotwasm]

52. The absolute right

I have joy in my husband, and I never thought marriage was what I was going to do. Didn't care for the whole idea really. But I did, because I had that choice.

Anything less for same sex couples is a complete violation of their rights as human beings, as well as unimaginably damaging to society as a whole.

[swishyfeet]

57. I wish there had been a NO option....

Not that I would choose it, but just to show the aggrieved around here that the overwhelming majority of DUers are on their side.

[OnionPatch]

59. I'm with you!

Gays should have the same right as I have, or anyone else has, to marriage. I hope that ignorant proposition 8 fails miserably here in California. I keep seeing the "Yes on 8" bumper stickers and it amazes me that people aren't embarrassed to have them on their cars. I'd as soon have a big glowing sign that says "I'm a bigoted asshole" on my car. What little, petty, scared-of-their-shadow, hate-filled people they must be.

[tpi10d]

61. re: No on 8

Here's something we all can do. Help defeat Prop 8 in CA.

https://secure.ga4.org/01/equalityforall

[Barrymores Ghost]

62. With a resounding cheer!

Hell, yeah!

[bunnies]

68. Yes, absolutely,

Its a violation of their civil rights that they are prohibited from entering a legal contract. Period.

[ebdarcy]

69. Yes. nt

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

70. Yes...but

I don't think the government should use one's participation in a church ritual to make determinations regarding one's legal rights. Couples who are non-religious should receive the same benefits as those who "walk down the aisle" and participate in a church ceremony. And by that same reasoning, same-sex couples should also receive the same recognition.

It's up to individual religious sects to decide if they want to recognize "marriage" between same-sex parties. I'm fine with it, but if your church won't do it, that's their business. Not mine. Not the government's.

[IndianaJones]

71. our own ticket would not vote in this poll....based on religious traditions. nt.

[dem629]

72. 1003 views, 126 yes votes = 12.5% of DU sample (so far). Interesting.

[Dinger]

73. Absolutely!

100 % YES!!!!!

[DevonRex]

74. Hell yes!!! Equal rights for every American. That's the bottom line. nt

[frogmarch]

75. Absolutely! nt

[Honeycombe8]

76. What about a neutral position? Neither agin' it nor for it?

There are just so many crises going on right now, that my little gray cells can only worry over so many things. I'm a woman, and I'm not for or against the women's rights issues, either. For now.

My issues are the environment, alternative energy, being spied on by the government, torture, the Iraq War, Afghanistan, healthcare, the economy, a fair tax system.

[CreekDog]

78. Because this thread was designed to support our GLBT friends here

:hi:

[tokenlib]

77. Honestly, there would not be that many "no's" here on DU...n/t

[Peacetrain]

79. K&R.. all human beings have unalienable rights

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,

[ulysses]

80. of course.