Can a Catholic support him? Asking the big questions about Barack Obama

[pnwmom]

http://blog.beliefnet.com/godometer/2008/09/godometer-qa-with-doug-kmiec-o.html

Douglas Kmiec, legal counsel to President Reagan and George H.W. Bush and former dean of Catholic University, is out with a new book, Can a Catholic Support Him? Asking the Big Questions about Barack Obama (read an excerpt). Kmiec talked to God-o-Meter about what provoked a Republican pro-life advocate to write a book-length endorsement of the Democratic nominee for president.

It's one thing for a conservative Catholic Republican to voice support for Barack Obama. It's another to write a whole book about it. What provoked this?

It wasn't how I set out to spend my summer. But I went to a meeting with Senator Obama and other faith leaders in June in Chicago and I was so impressed by the manner in which he handled that meeting--the length of time he spent with each of us, the way he answered questions and his open-minded approach and his answers on the life topic that I put to him. As I left the meeting it occurred to me that the reasonable thing to do would be do so some writing about it. I began writing essays that were syndicated in my column for the Catholic News Service, as op-eds in The Chicago Tribune and Slate, and all the writing generated a large amount of return email. I found myself individually answering emails at all hours of the day. That was the genesis of the book, to do wholesale what I was doing retail.

That must have been some meeting in Chicago.

It was my first face to face meeting with him. He opened by saying that everything he was going to tell us was on the record, that we could repeat it anywhere we liked. There were cameras outside the building but he said he knew those gathered in the room were not supporters and might be antagonists and that they might be uncomfortable being seen with him. So he said he'd maintain the confidence of anything they said in that meeting and also the maintain the confidence of whether they participated in the meeting. Comparing that to the existing political administration that has thrived on secrecy and closed circle of advisors, it was marvelously refreshing.

The second thing was that I was deeply impressed with the sense in which he got tough questions and not once was he angered or flustered or provoked. He frequently would turn it around and ask three of four questions that would illustrate the division in his own turn of mind and would inevitably find something in agreement in which the exchange could end. I've seen a lot of public figures and most of them spend five or ten minutes talking to you and take a picture and leave. Senator Obama came at 1:30 and I remember looking at my watch and it was 5:30 and he showed no sign of inching toward the door. And there was no camera inside.

SNIP

There's a Catholic notion of subsidiarity: that the government's role is to help the person make the right direction. It's not the government's role to come in and displace the person but to help the individual help themselves. And the person speaking that language is not John McCain--it's Barack Obama. He was the one talking about prenatal care and funding for maternity leave and rebuilding the adoption process so it's far less costly. The other side was not saying any of those things. Late in the day I hear, "Well of course interested in that, too" but most of the conversation I hear on the other side is "until we get the law changed, we can't do anything on the topic". And the legal issue becomes like an iron curtain that falls in front of the social gospel, as if it cannot be touched until this flaw in the legal system is addressed.

MUCH MORE AT THE LINK. . .

[IsItJustMe]

1. Believe it not, I know a fundie that will support Obama. He told me that there is more than just

one issue that concerns him. Maybe a few fundies are waking up anyway.

[SoxFan]

42. Catholics are NOT "Fundies"

Very, very different in terms of both theology and political sociology.

[Lilith Velkor]

2. Kmeic was denied communion for supporting Obama

just like a lot of Catholics were in '04 for supporting John Kerry, including Joe Biden and Kerry himself.

[pnwmom]

3. Maybe some priest or Bishop did that, but there are thousands of other Catholic

priests who would happily give him Communion.

[Lilith Velkor]

7. It was none other than Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2005/04/20/684/83575

There indeed are thousands of Catholic priests who would disobey the new Pope. That's because they're decent human beings.

[pnwmom]

21. That edict is being almost universally ignored. There's only one Bishop, that

I'm aware of, who's ever instructed his Priests to do this. And most of them aren't listening to him.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

4. Anyone who follows the teachings of the Catholic church cannot support Obama.

If by "catholic", you mean "someone who self-identifies as a catholic" then yes, tens of millions of catholics can and do support Obama.

If by "catholic", you mean "someone who follows the teachings of the Catholic church" then no, those teachings clearly require a voter to place more importance on banning abortion and opposing gay rights than on any other issues, and hence to support McCain.

Thankfully, most American catholics would rather be good people than good catholics, and are willing to deliberately misinterpret their church's teachings.

[pnwmom]

5. That's not true. Here's a Canon lawyer explaining -- in the major US Catholic

paper -- why a devout Catholic may choose to support Obama.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7271645&mesg_id=7271645

[electron_blue]

9. baloney. The catholic church also places high priority on other social issues, such

as poverty relief and staying out of stupid wars. It's not cut & dry like that. Neither party, in fact, has a stand which the Catholic church can stand behind 100%.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

33. No, but the Catholic church has repeatedly made clear that it views abortion as more important

than the death penalty, social justice etc - supporters of abortion are meant to have communion withheld, which isn't true of any of the other issues.

[moc]

12. I take it you're not Catholic?

Because you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[pnwmom]

22. That was my first thought. n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

32. Half right.

I'm not catholic, I do know what I'm talking about - it's not hard to do so, one just has to listen to what the pope and cardinals say, and not deliberately ignore it.

[SoxFan]

36. You have no idea what you're talking about

Please sit down, shut up, and stop making an ass out of yourself.

[moc]

43. No, actually you don't know what you're talking about.

If you believe in papal infallibility, then you don't understand Catholic theology. Inherent in Catholic theology is the right for Catholics of "good conscience" to disagree with official Church positions.

So, you're not Catholic, and you're talking out of your ass.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

47. What does papal infallibility have to do with it?

I know for a fact that papal infallibility when speaking ex cathedra is catholic doctrine (although I don't, personally, believe it in); I am aware of no infallible proclamations made on the subject of abortion, and am pretty confident none exist. However, the Pope and cardinals have made it very clear indeed what Catholic doctrine on this matter is.

Read http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm

3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

You're wrong about the right to disagree, as the Pope has made clear.

I know you really, really don't want to hear this, but sadly that doesn't make it untrue.

[moc]

50. Once again, you've demonstrated you don't have one iota idea what you're talking about.

Frankly, I find it humorous that a non-Catholic is lecturing a Catholic regarding church teachings.

Why do you assume I disagree with the Church's position on abortion? I don't. That's not the point. It's not whether or not I think abortion is okay, it's whether or not the Church can dictate who I vote for. That if I vote for Barack Obama I'm somehow going against Church teachings. That is the point. Catholics of good conscience can decide that it is consistent with Catholic doctrine to vote for Barack Obama.

By the way, I know of a number of Catholic theologians who would argue with what you posted above from "Priests for Life". Many do not agree that there is "legitimate diversity of opinion" with regards to Church teachings regarding war and the death penalty. Frankly, I think Catholics who claim that abortion is a black/white moral issue and at the same time claim that the death penalty is okay in specific circumstances are hypocrites.

[hedgehog]

14. What are the teachings of the Catholic Church? Do we follow the pronouncements of

a male hierarchy interested mainly in maintaining power or do we follow the teachings of our finest theologians?

You won't hear it mentioned very often, but it is commonly accepted that the "teaching" o artificial contraception wasn't dictated by scholars who couldn't find any conflict with Catholic moral teaching but rather by Vatican bureaucrats who feared that people would no longer listen to the Pope if the teaching was changed.


As a group, most Catholics have come a long way from the days when some of us believed we'd go to Hell if we missed Mass on Sunday or ate meat on Friday!

[demosincebirth]

18. Well said.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

30. Catholicism is a top-down religion.

Quite apart from the fact that the majority of catholic theologians (I'm not sure how one measures quality of a theologian) a) oppose abortion and gay rights, and b) say that abortion and opposition to stem cell research are much more important issues than social justice or the death penalty, what defines catholic doctrine is the positions of the pope and the cardinals.

[Two Americas]

35. no it isn't

It is a voluntary society, so the concept of "top down" does not apply. You are talking about the Church as though it were a corporation or government. Doctrine is an ever-evolving dense and complex thing. There are many ongoing intense and intelligent discussions going on within the Church and among Catholics on these issues. It is not a matter of the CEO putting out a memo, or a government issuing a warrant or passing a law, and having the power to fire or arrest people if they don't comply.

The Church supports life. If you think that is a simple or easy position to apply to the real world you are kidding yourself.

[olegramps]

38. Contraceptive Birth Control & The Catholic Church

The most effect means to reduce if not nearly eliminate abortion is the use of effective means to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Of course abstinence is the surest method but God in His wisdom especially endowed humans with a powerful sexual nature that often gets in the way of nuances like marriage, stable family, financial considerations, etc, etc. Pope John XXIII appointed a Birth Control Commission to explore the question in light of the so-called birth control pill. After years of extensive study, the majority of the commission consisting of cardinals and bishops, voted they didn't find it objectionable and recommended change with the same caveats that were to be considered in regard to natural family planning. Pope Paul VI, vacillated and delayed, but was warned that the papacy's authority would be greatly undermined if the church change its position after years of staunch opposition. Rather than protect the papal authority, his decision in reality had the opposite effect in that it spark a revolution in the church, including the majority of clergy, that severed the umbilical cord that led to the massive enfranchisement of Catholics that allowed them to at last make their own moral choices. The confessional booths emptied, the vast majority opted for whatever was the most effective means of family planning and in general there was an across the board rejection of what many regarded as the church's oppressive sexual doctrines. It was a church in revolt and continues to struggle to regain it equilibrium even nearly fifty years latter. The Catholic voting block is far less unified than in the recent past in which Catholics were solidly behind the New Deal legislation. The fact is that millions of Catholics no longer attend church and among those who attend regularly there is no solidarity on any moral question.

[demosincebirth]

17. I know many practicing Catholics who support Obama.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

29. Absolutely - as I said, tens of millions of self-identified catholics do so.

However, in doing so they're going against the teachings of their church.

[Chan790]

19. A reading between the lines from someone who was once on the inside.

I can speak as both an authority (a former-intern at the US Council of Catholic Bishops and former student of the Theological College at Catholic University...I was being groomed to serve in a overt role as an advocate for Catholic social positions before I lost my faith. I still have insights and connections behind-the-scenes, even if I am now an atheist.) and as someone who knows Doug Kmeic. (He guest lectured in my Con. Law undergraduate courses several times.)

One...Kmeic is about as Catholic as one can get without a funny hat or a roman collar. If Kmeic is writing a book, it's as close as the USCCB will get to an endorsement. It's an imprimatur for Catholics that they can vote for Obama...not merely permission but a "gentle suggestion" on which lever is more in line with Church teaching. (To put it another way...this is the church's way of saying that McCain's adultery and multiple marriages and social positions are worse than Obama's pro-choice position.) Douglas Kmeic would not be writing this book without a "nod", even an informal one.

Two...Catholic social teaching is unequivocal. There is no differentiation in degree on issues involving doctrine or mortal sin. The same stringency applies to church teachings whether we are talking about abortion, capital punishment, poverty or social justice. One is equally "wrong" for actively working to maintain the death penalty, for being a member of a supremacist group or for working against efforts to alleviate global poverty as to support abortion rights. Strict and staunch primacy of the abortion issue comes from the laity more than the clergy. (Admittedly there are those in the clergy as well who think of abortion as the big Catholic political issue.)

We can use invitations to speak at CUA as an indicator of how the Vatican feels about certain US pols (you can't speak at a pontifical university without "approval" from Rome.)...Kerry and Biden might be unwelcome, but so is Rick Santorum. Bob Casey has spoken on campus multiple times. Senator Casey might be the only Catholic in Congress, recent-past or present, that the church approves of.

[pnwmom]

23. Thanks, Chan790, for the highly informative post. n/

[Donald Ian Rankin]

31. That's not actually true - the pope has repeatedly made clear that abortion is more important

than the death penalty or social justice when deciding who to vote for - supporters of abortion should be denied communion; supporters of the death penalty should not.

[No Elephants]

34. Thanks. Pubs have cynically tried to make it about abortion and only abortion, but pro-life is more

than that. Also, making sure a kid can get vaccinations and food is just as important. Further, the Bible admonishes the individual. It does not require legislation or overseeing your neighbor's personal business.

[JerseygirlCT]

20. Not so.

Primacy of conscience.

[medicswife]

45. I recently spoke with a Catholic Priest who is supporting Obama because he

believes that Obama is fundamentally, across the board more Pro-Life than John McCain. Pro-Life in the minds of many should and does encompass a lot more than just the issue of abortion. The death penalty, famine, war, genocide, and poverty are all issues that cause death on massive scales. Many Catholics, when confronted with all of these issues and a candidates stance in a broad sense, then find themselves freed of the abortion only mind frame that has impeded them from voting for a Democrat in the past.

Heck. I grew up a Traditional Catholic and I'm a Democrat through and through. I would never recommend that my daughter have an abortion, yet I agree that we have a fundamental right to privacy that means Roe v. Wade must stand. I would want my daughter to be able to make the choice that she believes is best for her, and I would support her no matter what she decided. It's not Government's job to tell us what to do in matters of morality.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

46. Your last sentence caught my attention.

"It's not Government's job to tell us what to do in matters of morality."

I suspect you don't mean that literally - telling us not to do immoral things like murder and rape clearly *is* the government's job. So what *do* you mean by it?

[No Elephants]

6. Why can't a Catholic support Obama? Is he forcing anyone to have an abortion?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

16. Being Catholic is not all about abortions!!!

If people want to vote on one issue so be it that is their right but seriously I think the Obama/Biden ticket will attract a big Catholic vote. Biden being Catholic.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

40. Absolutely - most catholics will vote Democrat.

However, they will be doing so in clear and explicit defiance of their religion and the Pope.

[pnwmom]

24. They can! But some people mistakenly think that the Church favors

Republicans. In particular, because of the issue of abortion.

The Bush campaign deliberately promoted this idea on its website with a page showing Bush grasping hands with the Pope, with the title "Catholics for Bush."

[Donald Ian Rankin]

39. Those people include the pope and the cardinals...

They haven't dared explicitly endorse specific political candidates, but they've made it very clear that abortion and related issues should be a litmus test for voters.

[pnwmom]

48. I disagree. n/t

[H2O Man]

8. My PA Irish Catholic

relatives -- including some who are very much social conservatives -- all support the Obama-Biden ticket. In fact, many of them are actively campaigning for Obama.

[nyc 4 Biden]

52. I'm a practicing Catholic as is my whole family and we are...

...and have always been Democrats. I guess in our case it has always been: Republicans are for the rich and Democrats are for the working class.

[Orsino]

10. The religion that prevents one from supporting Obama over McCain...

...needs to be reexamined pronto, and possibly replaced with one more in tune with the planet we actually inhabit.

[mia]

11. This Catholic supports Barack Obama.

I'm sorry for all of the women who have felt that abortion was the only answer. If the world were a just and moral place this wouldn't be an issue. I don't believe that the majority of Republicans in Congress really care about children - born or unborn.

Yes, I believe in "the right to life". Nevertheless, I would never vote for a Republican. The mindset is just too much against ordinary working people. I believe that an Obama Presidency will raise the quality of life in a way that fewer women will choose abortion.

[moc]

13. Thank you for posting this. I have a friend from our former parish

who confessed to my husband that he "had to" vote republican because of the abortion issue. I'm going to have my husband send him this link.

[pnwmom]

25. You might also want to send your friend this other link.

This references another influential Catholic writing in the National Catholic Reporter.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7271645&mesg_id=7271645

[Clio the Leo]

15. I am a Christian and I am pro-life.......

..... but because I am a Christian and pro-life, I also oppose the death penalty and war as a general rule. Therefore, Obama's pro-choice stance (vs. McCain's new found pro-life stance) is a wash. A life is a life is a life, the Word of God does not put qualifications on "thou shalt not kill." So McCain promise to keep us at war forever and Obama's position on abortion cancel one another out when it comes to that.

Add to that the fact that the president is not able to overturn Roe v Wade ...... Roe survived a combined Republican president, congress and conservative Supreme Court. It is not going anywhere and I'm not about to use that as my sole basis for how to vote.

So I am left to judge these men based on their other policies and my perception of their character. To put it pure and simple, Barack's legislative ideas and how he conducts his life (from what I've seen) and his world view, all more closely resemble my New Testament beliefs.

Case in point. Conservatives like to criticize Barack for his tax plan, calling it economic socialism. I challenge ANY Christian to read Acts 4:32-35 and tell me the first century Christians weren't socialists. Something to think about.

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.


And oh yeah ...... Barack Obama isn't an unashamed adulteror ...... but darn it, I keep forgetting ..... it doesn't count because "it was a long time ago."

[bluedawg12]

26. Yes to Catholic vote for Obama! As opposed to a RW creationist

who trucks in casting out witches, wants to damage creation and be a Corporate Steward of natural resources, war monger and capital punishment enthusiast, or is that trophy hunting enthusiast.

People are imperfect, the Church will give the nod to the closest to the core values and not a one issue decision.

[slampoet]

27. I know two nuns who are voting Obama.

[JimWis]

28. Me to. I have two aunts who are nuns. Both are voting for

Obama. One doesn't especially like the abortion issue, but she is not a one issue voter. And she loves everything else about Obama.

[slampoet]

49. "war is always more important than abortion." is the position i heard one say.

[mmonk]

37. I imagine some devout Catholics have supported

Catholic Joe Biden in Delaware or Kennedy in MA.

[rucky]

41. I thought I saw a poll where he had a comfortable lead among Catholics.

I'll get back to ya.

[redwitch]

44. As a cafeteria Catholic (most of the Catholics I know are cafeteria)

I am voting Obama. I also believe in a woman's right to choose, birth control, sex education. Ditto my sisters, my brothers in law and my Catholic friends. My priest is a registered Democrat.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

51. As a Catholic, I can say there's about 4 catagories of the Catholic vote

1. Catholics who lean left on most issues and either have no strong opinion of the abortion issue or actively support abortion rights and therefore don't take into account the church's position on abortion when making their vote.

2. Moderate Catholics who may oppose abortion to some degree or another, but don't base their vote on the abortion issue alone and may find other areas in which they agree more with Democrats than Republicans. (My parents, both staunch Catholics who oppose abortion in most circumstances but also tend liberal on economic and foriegn policy issues, and therefore vote mainly for Democrats).

3. Catholics who strongly oppose abortion, and while agreeing with Democrats on numerous other issues, place their opposition to abortion above all other issues and tend to vote Republican based on the abortion issue alone. (Your classic "single issue voter")

4. Catholics who lean right on all issues (taxes, foriegn policy, etc.), not just abortion, and would vote Republican no matter what.

[iconicgnom]

53. "The next Republican that tells me I'm not religious, I'm going to ...

“The next Republican that tells me I’m not religious, I’m going to shove my rosary beads down their throat.”

-- A 2005 quote from Sen. Joe Biden that has resurfaced since he was named Democratic vice presidential candidate. Biden, a Catholic, supports abortion rights, which has drawn the ire of some bishops.

Quote copy/pasted from National Catholic Reporter
http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2055

[iconicgnom]

54. For those who only skim headers: this is Biden, on being a Catholic Dem.