Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

If the problem is liquidity...

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:31 AM
Original message
If the problem is liquidity...
then why does the proposed solution deal with existing loans and failing banks? Why not give $700 billion to responsible banks who are financially solvent?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. OMG....people just don't get it.
Amazing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Then make them get it.
Your responses to the subject are a mile wide and an inch deep.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. You explain it. You seem to think you know everything.
I'm tired of explaining it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I have tried to read every thread I can find on the subject...
and still haven't seen a convincing explanation, in layman's terms, that clears the whole thing up for me. If honest people on a Democratic forum can't discuss the topic intelligently and come to some consensus, what chance do congressional Democrats have of selling this plan to the American people?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Life Long Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. It seems like an awful lot of money for the housing and commercial crisis.
And Pelosi is concerned with this as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
28. If we don't buy back the "bad" mortgages the Chinese
will never lend us another dime as long as we live.

Since we need about $2 Billion/day in foreign credit, we cannot afford to say no to China.

When we wean ourselves from foreign credit, then we can talk tough.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. So the Chinese are demanding that we prop up the failing banks and purchase the worst loans...
Or else they won't lend our government anymore money?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. And China gets its money from...us. And got its physical plant built from - foreign investors.
When Lincoln wanted to fight the Civil War, he didn't get the money from bankers.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Can you post a link..
to the thread where you explained it, then?

I've only seen posts from you that resemble this one, full of substance-free hysteria and insults.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Well, clearly I DON'T get it. I'm admitting as much!
And asking for an explanation in layman's terms. Why the hostility?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
57. Because they CAN'T - without making it look like
We're giving a huge chunk of cash to people who've already stolen a huge chunk of cash from us.

If "liquidity" is really the problem, then we should bail out the homeowners directly. Then they can pay off their bad loans - thereby injecting a huge amount of cash into the system, and eliminating bad debt - and renegotiate new good loans, if necessary.

But, of course Congress can't do anything that directly helps the middle class,
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. Or even to "irresponsible" mortgage holders who believed
the table would stay tilted in their favor?

That brings us back to equilibrium, and perhaps more reliably than by throwing huge chunks at debtors who aren't homeowners but people marginally invested in derivative-style indications of stability.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. Simply, by removing these under-performing loans off of the balance sheets of the banks.....
They will be able to obtain fresh capital for liquidity.

Not every loan is "bad." Some are 1 month in arrears, some are longer.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Where are they obtaining that capital?
So other, bigger banks won't loan money to the big banks because they look at the balance sheets and notice that they're holding a bunch of worthless loans? So we buy those worthless loans* and then those big banks who screwed up by investing so heavily in bad loans are able to borrow again?

Again, why not just give that money directly to the banks who aren't on the verge of failure and help propel some smaller banks into the big leagues as a reward for their responsibility?

* Yes, I know the loans aren't totally worthless. But some of the borrowers will default right? Regardless of whether or not this bailout goes through? If people simply can't make their payments then they will lose their house either way. I don't see how this bill helps them. And surely, if this is a voluntary thing where we offer to buy bad debt from failing banks, they are only going to sell us the worst of the worst right?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Sadly, much of the ability to obtain capital is tied to Moody's and SandP ratings.
GAAP dictates that you recognize a loss when it is incurred.

This bill specifically sets a date for which after those can not and will not be bought by the "trust" created in the bill.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. In layman's terms please!
I freely admit to my ignorance on the topic. But again I argue, if we can't convince each other here through reasonable discussion, what chance does our party have of selling this to the American public in a soundbyte way and actually winning this damn election?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Very well. The fat-cats set the rules. And now they are freaking out.
Standard and Poors and Moodys publish industry-respected credit ratings for publicly-traded companies.

When the ratings go down, the cost to borrow goes up.

When S/P and Moodys cut WaMu, they had no choice but to cry "uncle."

The cost to borrow and restructure sans Chapters 11/13 was too high.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #26
35. So why doesn't the government just create a program to lend money to public companies...
with bad credit ratings? Or is that basically what we're doing?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slick8790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #35
58. A lot of this problem has to do with bad mortgages on balance sheets.
Which, in laymans terms, are basically just a sheet listing all of the assets (deposits etc.) and liabilities (loans) of an institution. The assets and liabilities have to be equal. If a bank is so swamped with liabilities, it can't loan money. therefore, loans and credit become harder to find. If you lend the banks money, it doesn't change the balance sheet. It just replaces one loan with another. The only way to fix this crisis is to simply give the money to them, wiping the liabilities off their balance sheet, and letting the government take on the bad mortgages.


That was my best shot in simple terms as I understand it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. The tightness of credit is cyclical.
Congress could do nothing, and the tightness of credit would still swing back-and-forth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
8. Excellent suggestion. Unfortunately, the people are being "fear mongered" into a shitty deal.
Why the rush? We can pass MUCH BETTER legislation after Obama is Inaugurated and we have increasing numbers of democrats in our Congress.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. If the last week hasn't taught you anything...
"The fierce urgency of now."


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
11. Why?
Because part of the reason these banks are FAILING and HAVE no liquidity is because their assets are tied up in mortgage loans and securities based on those loans, which, ultimately, means in real estate, which is not a liquid asset and is not one easily transferred in the midst of a sharp downturn in the housing and real estate market. Why do you assume that the answer to a looming crisis lies in giving help where it is not needed (ie, to solvent financial institutions with liquid assets) rather than where it IS (to financial institutions facing serious liquidity problems which are not ONLY on the brink of failure, but whose failure will result in the loss of thousands of jobs and BILLIONS of dollars in depositor savings and investor money)? What good exactly does that do?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. New jobs can be created.
It looks like many of our solvent banks are stepping up to help businesses effected by the failures secure new loans.

The solution that is being proposed is to throw good money after bad, and essentially socialize the the gambling debts these failed institutions took on.

The good it does to let the banks fail is to take our medicine quickly rather than have it play out over decades. We can recover from this crisis and live to grow an economy based on sound fundamentals rather than a shadowy derivatives market.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. You just don't get it.
Allow me to explain this to you in very simple terms.

If the most at-risk financial institutions in the current crisis are allowed to fail, there will be a ripple effect. OTHER financial institutions which are currently solvent will be put at risk because of a precipitous decline in depositor and investor confidence. There will be a frenzy of short-selling of financials on Wall Street. Foreign banks will not loan money to US banks. There will be no credit available. The economy as a whole will be affected much more broadly and deeply; the damage will NOT be limited to the financial sector. Businesses which can not obtain credit to meet their operating expenditures will be forced to lay off workers. Workers who are unable to meet their financial obligations will lose their homes. Things will be far far worse than you seem to think. This is about containment. It's that simple.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Why are you talking to another DU member like you are John McCain at the lectern in MS?
Seriously.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Does the fact that they're another DU member mean that they're not capable of staggering ignorance?
I say the answer to that is 'no'. The present financial crisis sees a lot of people here making flat pronouncements that sound for all the world like Grover Norquist and his 'starve the beast', only in this instance the 'beast' is Wall Street and those evil bankers (and never mind that millions of ordinary Americans are going to get hurt by the fallout).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I read your point, and agree with it.
I just want us to be polite.

Especially when there is no cause to be rude.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #23
47. Millions of ordinary Americans were hurt by the party..
that Wall Street threw at their expense.

Now they are being asked to pay for the cleanup.

Our government was not established as a means of propping up large corporations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. Thanks for the more detailed explanation. I still have some questions though.
OTHER financial institutions which are currently solvent will be put at risk because of a precipitous decline in depositor and investor confidence.

So most banks actually rely on borrowing from other banks, and if the banks at the top collapse, the whole house of cards comes down? Or worse, if the public panics, there is a run on the banks and the problem is exacerbated?


There will be a frenzy of short-selling of financials on Wall Street.

Can't that be disallowed? At least temporarily? In fact, isn't there already some restriction against shorting bank stocks at this point?


Foreign banks will not loan money to US banks.

If there are banks with solid finances though, why wouldn't foreign institutions lend to them? Obviously they won't want to lend to the failing banks but are you saying that all banks are equally complicit in this crisis?

More to the point, why not have the government provide $700 billion or more in low interest loans to the banks that are still solvent? Why would they need money from foreign banks then?


There will be no credit available. The economy as a whole will be affected much more broadly and deeply; the damage will NOT be limited to the financial sector. Businesses which can not obtain credit to meet their operating expenditures will be forced to lay off workers. Workers who are unable to meet their financial obligations will lose their homes. Things will be far far worse than you seem to think. This is about containment. It's that simple.

Right, this is what I keep reading. But I haven't seen a clear simple explanation for dummies that describes the exact mechanism or chain of events by which this will happen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. If there's a panic, yes, bank runs make everything much worse
because a general and widespread distrust in financial institutions in general (which will be the end result of SOME banks being allowed to fail)leads to greater instability overall (note that it IS called 'the financial system'; it's interconnected). If things got bad ENOUGH, and there WERE bank runs, it's enturely possible that depositors would be turned away and told they couldn't be paid (which could very well happen, because of fractional reserves), which would make things far worse.

There's a temporary ban on shorting financials in the market; it expires in three days, whether it will be extended remains to be seen.

Foreign banks won't loan to US banks because of SYSTEMIC financial instability. Again, this is about containment. If there is not an injection of liquidity into the financial system, then suddenly it becomes much riskier for foreign banks to do business with US banks. You're acting as though there isn't an interconnection between financial institutions and as though perceptions of the risk of doing business with American banks won't be drastically altered by a deepening credit crunch and several more high-profile bank failures or nationalisations; I submit that that's a little naive.

And this is what a liquidity crisis IS; banks have insufficient cash on hand to loan money (which is the essence of credit), and if the present situation worsens will be unable to obtain those funds through interbank loans because the problem will only become more widespread.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. The reason the foreign banks wont lend to us
is because they got, in Wall Street language, their "faces ripped off" by WS bankers selling them mortgage backed securities.

They have no confidence that they know what is on the balance sheets of US banks.

The purpose of the plan is to let everyone know that whatever they want to get off their balance sheets, they can. Thus, by inference, what is left there must be worth at least where it is marked.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. So where does the newfound confidence come from?
Say I'm a foreign bank and I saw that a US bank made billions of dollars and conned millions of people by pushing B.S. "mortgage backed securities." Now the US government is going to swoop in and buy that worthless paper from those banks. How does that suddenly give me the confidence to lend money to the charlatans all over again?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #17
40. Answer me this, bright boy: how is it that the whole world economy seems to rest on
some % of bad US home loans?

What % of the population has outstanding mortgages, & of those, what % went bad?

How much $ would it take to pay them off?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. It's not JUST the US, and it's not JUST bad mortgages
I suppose you haven't been paying attention to the news, if you had you might've heard about the British mortgage lender that's being nationalised? Or perhaps about the failure of Northern Rock in the UK a little while back? The world ECONOMY doesn't depend on it, but a lot of those loans were packaged as securities. Packaged with GOOD debt, sold off as bonds, bought by investment banks, bought by foreign banks. It's not the economy, it's the banking and financial system (which are RELATED but are by no means the same thing). Systemic instability in the global financial system can have extremely adverse economic effects.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. yes, i've been paying attention to the news, & the news is not that the world is
bailing out its banks, but that the US is bailing out ITS.

And that the crisis was supposedly precipitated by a bunch of bad mortgages.

You know everything, give me the numbers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
46. You're just speculating.
So far there are few signs that inaction will result in a precipitous failure of our economy.

Confidence is long gone, in my opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
abumbyanyothername Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
29. affected. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #29
48. thanks. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
16. The idea is NOT to improve the solvency of existing banks... the problem is that the banks may not..
exist at all!

Stop thinking of this in terms of profit margins... think of this in terms of whether capitalism will be here tomorrow.

~Writer~
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. From what I read, the potential problem is a "credit crunch"
Which would mean that no banks are giving loans. So why should we care if some banks go out of business as long as some banks are still thriving?

Presumably the strong, surviving banks could purchase the assets of some of the failing banks if they so desire. Not with taxpayer's money though. That should go entirely toward providing "liquidity" if that's the big issue, right?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. They won't give each other money
The money will simply stop moving. Not just loans to businesses, but the loans banks give to each other that covers the flow of money through ATM's and checks and wire transfers and whatnot. No Money.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. So why don't we give them the money? With a small interest rate attached.
I realize that this is basically the plan. Pick a "really big number" and create a fund to make that money available if and when it's needed. But why is the focus on buying the bad debt from these companies, rather than letting the government become a source to extend new lines of credit to good borrowers?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. The money is there for credit to good borrowers
once the bad debt is removed. At least that is the hope, that people and investors will stop sitting on their money and let it start flowing again. In a sense, it's like a restructuring bankruptcy. The difference is there is just too much debt to just write off, so the government is either insuring it or buying it. Would you give money to a bank that had a shit pot full of bad debt, even if they promised to only give it to good borrowers? If you wouldn't, why would you think it was a good idea for the government to do it. Better to reduce the bad debts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #36
49. Raising interest rates would do more to get investors..
to stop sitting on money, without the real risk of currency deflation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #32
45. keep asking questions. you're wiser than some undertaking to educate you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #18
59. Because the volume of failures...
would be damaging enough that we would see unprecedented layoffs not seen since the depression. This, in turn, will cripple economies around the world - the potential social ramifications of this is, from what I understand, unfathomable. This is no time for ideological solutions... we need to think in terms of saving our system. We're headed to a mixed economy, like many European nations, and we have to deal with that reality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
22. The problem with BIG SHITPILE isn't a lack of credit to buy it, it's that it's SHIT.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #22
50. correct.
Having the government buy up the trash will do little to inspire confidence in the banks that made those poor decisions. I think their reputations have been permanently damaged.

Quoting from "Margin of Safety" by Seth Klarman (sorry for errors, transcribing from a book):

"The operations of capital-intensive businesses are, over the long run, relatively immune from long term distress, while those that depend on the public trust, like financial institutions... may be damaged irreversibly...After a successful exchange offer, an injection of fresh capital, or a bankruptcy reorganization, these businesses recover to their historic level of profitability. Others, however, remain shadows of their former selves.

Klarman is an investor who has earned billions for his clients by dealing with distressed businesses.

His advice convinced me to stay away from the JPM bonds paying 50% a few weeks ago.

A financial institution's biggest asset is often its reputation. No government bailout can restore that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
38. CO, people have been stampeded
into believing that the world is going to end if this bailout doesnt go through. It is completely fear-induced panic. Very similar to the panics you see occasionally in financial markets and in bank runs where people act hastily and don't think straight. Very similar to the panic that was induced leading up to the Iraq War. When you can get people to panic like that, you can get them to believe just about anything. You can get them to act hastily, without thinking things through, and can get them to agree to ideas that superficially make sense but in reality may not work.

You're basically arguing against the idea of "saving the system." Because by definition, the bailout plan will "save the system." Many people disagree with that conclusion, but in a panic their voices will not be heard. There is an irrational rush to do something -- NOW. Other options are not being considered. It's Paulson's plan or nothing. There are many ideas about what should be done, but they will not be considered.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #38
52. In any panic, there is enormous opportunity for profit.
Wouldn't it be nice if we were clued in to where the smart money is headed?

I wonder what Nancy knows.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #38
55. How are we supposed to save the system if nothing is done to fix it?
It doesn't look as though there are any provisions to prevent this from happening again. Without fixing the causes this money is just a really expensive bandaid and somewhere down the line we'll have to "save" the system yet again.

Regards
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
39. Its a good point and I think the answer may be

that they while the main problem is fundamentally a question of liquidity it is also a question of psychological perception.

If you gave the good institutions more capital to pass out then there would still be a large number of institutions that would remain at risk because they wouldn't qualify. They may still be viable but simply need to move some of the non performing debt in order to recover.

In other words if an institution has only 15% of its assets in non performing loans the total value of those loans would still be worth hundreds of billions of dollars even if they were discounted, but they cannot sell them even if they reduce the price by 50%.

For example they may have a house with a mortgage of $ 300,000 and that house is now worth $ 200,000 but even if they discount it to $ 100,000 and write off the loss they would, on paper, still be viable and have plenty of assets to cover the loss but they cannot sell the asset because no one can buy it because of the liquidity freeze.

The other problem is that part of the liquidity problem is being exaccerbated by a general run on the banks - WaMu lost $ 50 billion in deposits before it failed. Even if they restored liquidity but a number of banks failed and a panic ensued depositors would drain the system of even more money - possibly more than the $ 700 billion than they are putting in, especially if they withdrew $ 50 billion from a single bank.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Where did the $50 billion from WAMU go to
Probably to other good banks. In other words, the liquidity of other banks was increased. What happened to WAMU itself? JP Morgan Chase bought it for $1.9 billion. After assuming the $19 billion (WAMU's estimate) to $31 billion (JP Morgan's estimate) of WAMU's bad debts, JP Morgan paid from $20.9 billion to $32.9 billion for all of WAMU.

Why is that not the way to go with other bad banks? Instead of the Federal Govt. throwing $700 billion at the bad banks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
44. In short: We're being robbed...
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 04:26 AM by and-justice-for-all
Paulson is a financial terrorist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
51. STill Not Convinced There Is A Problem Here Other Than Rapacious Greed!
eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. And you and many others won't be until it's too late
and there's double digit unemployment, devasted retirement accounts and failed companies and small businesses in every sector of the economy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Too Late For What - I Survived 5 Years Of Unemployment Under Dubya
I'll survive another 5.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iiibbb Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
56. First, it's not 700 Billion anymore... it starts with 250 B.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
60. Here's my understanding of it.
Let's start in the mid-90s. "Redlining" was a big deal. It was made easier, and desirable, to issue more subprime mortgages; note that banks were resistant to such loans because, well, they liked to make money and the only way to make money on risky loans was to charge high interest rates--which turned out to have a race-based distribution (mostly attributable to non-racist motives, but at the time correlation was all that was needed to prove causation). This increase hit a wall when banks, stuck with such loans, weren't lending more to risky clients.

The solution was to securitize the loans. I doubt this was the primary goal of mixing investment houses and banking firms, but certainly had it as one consequence: You could take the risky mortgages and get them off your books. This meant you could make more loans, and sell them. The mortgages were bundled into securities and sliced into pieces, with the top-of-the-line "slices" guaranteed first payout of dividends and capital if the mortages went south. The lowest slices were only guaranteed a payout if all the higher slices got paid, but these were, in turn, bundled into CDOs, which were similarly sliced into pieces, some of which were higher priority in getting their money.

Without these two factors, there'd be no crisis.

As long as housing prices increased, people had trouble with foreclosures: They could sell their houses, usually not losing money and sometimes making money. Banks saw little downside in the risky mortgages, mortgage holders saw little downside in risky mortgages.

Housing market goes soft. Risky mortgages = more frequent defaults. Without the bubble, there'd also be no crisis since the reselling of risky mortgages would have been self-limiting. But, as it is, the mortgage-based securities are also of questionable worth. They were good as gold last month, and your sin is being the one caught with them when the market went soft. Had you sold them a few months ago, you'd be off scott-free. But now your question is a serious one: What are the securities based on slices of bundled mortgages worth?

Answer: You have no idea. Neither does anybody else. A single security might include bits of a thousand mortgages, some of which are good and some of which bad. This makes their "fair market value"--in some objective sense, their bedrock, lowest bound, value--nearly impossible to determine. They're toxic, i.e., nobody wants them, because nobody can evaluate the risk. Even if a security is actually still good, there's no way to determine this--meaning that the risk is necessarily overstated in a cautious market. Since return on investment is determined by perceived risk, and the amount of the return isn't going to increase, the percentage payback increases--that means the prices of the securities decline until the return for the perceived rate of return/risk is "worth it" to a buyer. At some point, however, the return isn't worth it at all. "Perceived" is the key word here, because the securities might still be worth a fair amount.

It works the same in various other kinds of markets. You have a van Gogh, you paid $100k for it last year, knowing that you can turn around and sell it for that much next month, if not more. Then there's a scandal, and a guy who sold to *your* antiques store is found to have mass produced 200 van Goghs in the last 3 years. The van Gogh market freezes. Your van Gogh might be genuine, but until you can prove it is, it's possibly a fake and can't be sold. In other words, until confidence is restored in the market, everybody's caught holding expensive crap.

Now, because these securities were usually short-term, they were put down as "marked to market". This means that they were carried on the balance sheet at what their current market worth was. You see your mortgage based securities sell for $1 when you paid $10, you suddenly have a 90% loss to those assets on your balance sheet, even though you're not selling them. These are carried as collateral; if you need to have $100 in collateral, and had $100 of these, you now have $10 in collateral. Once down as marked to market, you can't decide to "unmark" them to market. Without marked to market accounting, a practice that is neither inherently good nor bad (just very useful in some circumstances), we probably wouldn't have the crisis.

Moreover, we seemed to applaud when Fannie and Freddie had *their* stocks devalued. The same problem happened as with the mortgage-based securities, *and it was pointed out at the time* that the federal action with Fannie and Freddie could send brokerage houses into default--Lehmann was actually pointed out by name. Why? Because when those stocks and bonds lost value, places like Lehmann, with lots of holdings in Freddie/Fannie stock, *lost* much of the value of their collateral. Notice that there was noting improvident in what Lehmann did, except in hindsight. They held stocks that were considered trustworthy, as did many insurance companies, banks, and pension funds.

Now, let's assume that you're Big Bank A, and your brother is Big Insurance Company B. Where do you put the money from those putting money in your bank or paying insurance premiums? Well, you pay out more than you take in--in interest, if you're a bank, or for claims if you're in insurance. You need to make money on their money. So you invest it. In stocks and bonds. Let's assume that you invested in mortgage securities, Fannie Mae, and stocks for Big Bank B and Large Manufacturer B. When the stocks and bonds you've invested in suddenly lose value--Fannie Mae and mortgage securities, to be precise--at least you still have Big Bank B stocks. You look at your assets, find that you were minimally invested in the securities that lost money, so you and your brother can still stay in business. But then you find that Big Bank B was invested in Fannie Mae and mortgage stocks, and was just taken over--and its stocks are now essentially worthless. You've taken a hit, even though you and your brother were good guys and cautious. But you still have Large Manufacturer B stocks. Whew!

Problem is, Large Manufacturer B has a large line of credit with Big Bank B that allows them to easily do business because their cash flow waxes and wanes, and that's now gone. In fact, because of a chill in the banking industry, until banks can sort out what their assets are worth they can't afford to lend cash because they simply don't know how liquid they are--they're possibly close to being in default on collateral requirements and couldn't raise cash if their jobs depended on it (and they do), so Big Manufacturer B can't afford to stay in business. It has to cut back, and it might do worse. Its stock tanks, and the feds talk about a "bailout".

In fact, Big Banks C and D are now sweating. They loaned lots of money, and have to have cash in reserve for FDIC/federal requirements. They were counting on easily dumping liquid assets like stocks and bonds if a lot of money was taken out of their banks, but they know they can't. There's the connection between toxic assets and bank failures--if you have close to the cash margin needed to keep your bank open, and there's a run on your bank, you just might not be able to raise the cash. If word leaks out you heavily invested in what are now toxic assets, it even makes a bank run all the more likely. So why can't you just sell the assets or even properly value them?

Because nobody knows what the securities and stocks are worth. Two paragraphs back, Big Manufacturer B just had problems not because of a problem in its business, but because the liquidity environment changed, because its bank and other banks had problems. How many other companies are like Big Manufacturer B, about to have problems with their business, and therefore with their stocks? Moreover, if Big Bank B had problems, and Big Bank C knows *it's* getting close to not having the required cash on hand, it's not going to trust Big Bank D when it needs to borrow money, and vice-versa. In fact, they won't trust your stock, either, Big Bank A, and probably not Big Insurance Company A's stock, either. And when they ask you for money, Big Bank A, you're going to look at your assets and question what they're worth and if you could liquidate them. Can *you* afford to lend them money? Might that not mean you'll wind up with not enough money when the question inevitably arises, How trustworthy is *your* bank?

This won't affect, until very late in the game, small-potatoes lending for easily liquidated real assets. The "man in the street" will judge what the entire system is like based upon one of the last things to go sour. His data sample is harshly biased, and any class consciousness will only reinforce that bias. But back to the main topic.

The result of the banking problems is that liquidity takes a nose dive.

Now, how do you fix the problem? Keep in mind, when liquidity gets too tight, companies that rely on loans will have problems getting loans, as will new businesses that aren't obviously solid gold, and then the finance-based economy (Wall Street) hits the *real* economy, businesses.

So what's the fix? The first problem is to restore proper confidence in the mortgage-based securities. So the question is, What are the mortgage-based securities worth? Or, the alternative, How do we restore ever-increasing house prices? Either would fix the problem, but the second restores the bubble and plays kick the can--and you *still* have a problem with determining what the mortgage-based securities are worth, and have to deal with that question. So let's deal with it. In other words, we dispose of the toxic securities' toxicity. How do you do that? By saying what they're worth. How do you do that? You hire teams of people to look deep into the guts of those securities, people with the authority and connections to pull together all that information. You have a security that's the topmost slice of a CDO that bundled together 100 of the bottommost slices from securities, each of which bundled together 2000 mortgages, and you get to determine the status of as many as 200,000 mortgages, find out how many are in default and their disposition, and the likelihood of the mortgages in a given CDO going bad. Then you know what those CDOs are worth at that moment and something about the risk. You find that the asset carried on your books as $1 is worth $0.01. But when you do it for the topmost slices of the mortage-based securities, you find that while you carry them at $1.00, they're worth $150. The upside is much bigger than the downside.

If you're the feds, you have an easier time getting all the info. If you're Big Bank A, you don't have the pull or the resources to do it. Once the confidence in the various mortgage-based securities is worked out, much of the liquidity problem just might go away.

Note that you don't actually need to do the scut-work for *every* security. You do it for 100, and you can start doing stats based on how the mortgages were securitized. After you do a half dozen securities based on randomly assembled New Jersey mortgages, most other securities based on randomly assembled New Jersey mortgages will probably turn out essentially the same. The risk determination won't be precise, but will be close and statistically determined. This is leveraging the research in an interesting way.

But if the feds buy these securities, they have to pay a price for them, right? What price? Buying them at their current price won't help anybody much--it'll provide some liquidity, but just swap out cash for assets. Those banks who are close to being belly up will continue to be close to being belly up. So somebody has to determine a "fair price", as opposed to the "market price". This is risky: Ideally, you'd like Paulson to be able to buy $100 billion of these toxic assets, do the work to properly value them, and sell them for maybe $101 billion (in order to recoup the expenses involved in valuing them properly). By guessing as to what the "fair price" is, it means that the $100 billion might buy stuff worth $100 million or $150 billion when all is said and done.

Why do I care? Because I have money in my kid's education fund, which crucially depends on stocks and bonds. Because my mother receives a pension--my mother was, after all, in a union--and pensions are crucially invested on stocks and bonds. Because my father, not in a union, got a lump-sum retirement, which is invested in various securities. Because my wife's pension is also invested in stocks and bonds. Because large corporations, banks, etc., pay a significant portion of taxes--the mess with a few brokerage houses and banks will likely cause the NY State and City tax revenue streams to suffer some real hits (mostly because their tax structures are "progressive", and those suffering most in this will be at the upper income levels) ... and this will push down NY property values, making more failed mortgages likely. Because I often see a doctor, and they have malpractice insurance, and because I have health and renters and car insurance, and high rates of return on stocks and bonds keep insurance premium increases down while insurance company losses make for higher insurance premiums.

But also because I recall something called a "multiplier" from my one macroeconomics class, and I'd expect a liquidity crisis to decrease the multiplier. The multiplier is, crudely put (which is how I ever understood it) the number of times a single dollar changes hands. It's not just the # of dollars in circulation, it's what they purchase. Decreases the multiplier and you can trigger severe deflation--and then you get things like the Great Depression; increase it, and even if the money supply stays constant, you get inflation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC