I don't understand this...I just don't understand...

[CoffeeCat]

So, let me get this straight:

--George Bush is for a bailout. He's pedaling it like he pedaled the Iraq war and the Patriot Act.
Huge, red flag.

--Barack Obama supports the bailout, with caveats, of course.

--Conservative Republicans are against the bailout, because they're against "big government." However, these
are the same conservative Republicans who have been kow towing to big business and giving them anything
they want for the past eight years. They're into bid deals for big pharma, we just handed over billions
to the auto industry, and every time big business fails--they're always there, justifying another billion-dollar
hand out. But this time...they're against it.

...However, they're fearless leader, Bush--is for it--and the Dems and Barack Obama are for it.

Is this screwed up or what? Something is just not right, at all.

Is this as simple as the conservative Republicans worrying about what their constituents think? Or is this
complex? Is this a set up--to get Obama to go along with Bush, so then when the economy tanks and the
bailout appears to have been inconsequential to economic healing--the Republicans (and McCain) can claim that
they tried to stop it?.

Adding another dimension to this, is my opinion that this bailout is going to be irrelevant, as far as
economic healing goes. Our economy is going into the shitter, not because of Wall Street, but because
of Main Street. The bailout's success is contingent upon that trillion being borrowed by consumers
and small businesses. The economy is in a deep recession with a severe spending contraction. Borrowing--on
a level high enough to "save" the economy, just will not happen.

Current rising unemployment signals deep spending contractions on the consumer side. This is mainly due to consumers
not using major credit cards, store credit cards and money flowing from easily-obtained home-equity loans.
As those source of dollars dry up--because people are maxed on credit or in savings mode or simply broke--our
economy will severely contract. This will result in further unemployment, business failures, bankruptcies
and additional unemployment. These cascading fundamentals will further erode the economy, into a deep,
deep crisis. Our economy was propped up with borrowed dollars. That is all ending now. It will cause
massive decreases in the demand for nearly everything.

I'm a stay-at-home mom--and I can see this coming. Surely, Wall Street and the politicians know this too.

So, what in the world....is going on?

I'm not saying that my theories are fact. I'm open to being enlightened. I am hoping to discuss what is
going on and why. Because the politics of this are just nuts right now.

We all know that the neocons aren't giving up their power easily. Could all of this be a concocted crisis
to get the Dems to buy in--and then when it fails--America turns against them? Furthermore, if Bush is FOR
this--and so are the Dems, but the Republicans (and McCain) aren't, this enables the Republicans to finally
break free of Bush and any hindrance Bush ties might have on their re-election campaigns. I can see them saying (after
the economy free falls before the election and after the bailout,) "See! We tried to stop it! We went against
Bush and fought against Bush and the Democrats, but they did the bailout any way and now our economy is
destroyed. Who are you going to trust...to be President and in power now, America...the Dems or the Reps?"

Could this be happening?

[MichiganVote]

1. High stakes poker--global style, that's whats going on.

[spanone]

2. it's politics...the rethugs have to go home and try to get elected between now & nov.

[CoffeeCat]

5. Yes, but so do the Democrats...

...and Barack Obama has to worried about his campaign as well.

So why are the Republicans are using the excuse about the elections to vote
against it--but the Dems are not?

[goodgd_yall]

12. Because Republicans are looking out for themselves

and not the good of the country. They know they are losiing.

Maybe it just so happens a big bailout is needed to save us from a financial failure akin to the Depression of the 30s. I'm not so much against that as to how it's going to be done. I like what Obama has been saying about putting in protections for taxpayers and people having trouble keeping their houses and making executives accountable. Additionally, I'd like to see all the executives of the companies being bailed out have to give up their assets---houses, cars, boats, savings accounts, etc to help with the bailout, but, this being a capitalist country, I know that's not going to fly.

[TheDoorbellRang]

20. Because the Dems want to save the economy and the pukes want to save their asses

From what I hear from my investor buds, this bailout is the best solution we've got and it better happen pretty quick.

[grannylib]

3. You're not the only one who's confused...you raise very interesting

questions.
I would put NOTHING past these filth. NOTHING. We know they will stoop to any level in order to grab and keep money/power. Surprise, surprise. They've managed to bankrupt the country pretty well already, and now they want another $700 BBBBBBBBillionyikesdollars NOW no oversight no limits no review no questions no answers no accountability nothing for Main Street or the ordinary working Americans on whose backs those Wall Street fortunes have been raised??

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

So yes, I think that COULD be happening - something besides just John McAnus bailing out on Letterman SMELLS.

[mamalone]

4. Another stay-at-home mom who doesn't understand all this...

I am greatly looking forward to some of our great DU thinkers to break it down for us.

[CoffeeCat]

9. It just seems totally contrary to everything we've...

...seen in politics up to this point.

We all know the drill.

The Republicans want to steamroll over America. They are always FOR really
bad policies--illegal wiretapping, torture, immunity for the Telcos, the Iraq
war, additional funding for the Iraq war, corporate bailouts.

They've never, EVER given a damn about the voters, or Americans--or for this
democracy. In fact, they've worked to destroy it.

But now....now we're supposed to believe that this group of conservative Republicans
is oh-so worried about public opinion???????????

And....the Democrats...aren't??? Usually, the Dems fight stuff like this, and we
get angry when enough of them cave and Bush gets his way.

It's all turned around this time. Why? I don't get it.

That's why I smell a set up.

[mamalone]

21. That pretty much sums up my confusion...

I'll admit it's a bit comforting to know I'm not the only one who is having a hard time getting it. Thanks for being so real:hug:

[CoffeeCat]

22. Hey Mama...

Glad to know I'm not the only one scratching my head!

I like threads where people discuss ideas and give opinions. This is a very complex problem--and there
are so many brilliant and interesting minds on DU.

I know I can ask questions or suggest theories--and the collective opinions and insight from
DUers--always makes for interesting reading. It helps everyone--to read and understand.

Thanks for your kindness. :)

[mamalone]

25. You are most welcome:-)

Thank you for being the one to ask the question in the first place!


:hug:

[ddeclue]

6. Let me splain it to you...

Bush's career in politics is effectively OVER at this point and all signs point to: EPIC FAIL...

He realizes that he'll be remembered as a cross between the worst of Warren Harding, Herbert Hoover, and Richard Nixon and this stock market situation is just the final icing on the cake.

In short:

He DESPERATE to save his legacy, to save his ass and he needs Congress' help - in fact he's gonna have to crawl on his knees and sign anything they bring him.

If it is up to our party's leaders, the Congressional Democrats and Obama are going to give him a bill to sign but he ain't gonna like it:

In short it's Christmas in September for Congressional Democrats - look for a big raise in the minimum wage, new regulations on the stock market and CEO's, limits on credit cards and foreclosures, extensions in unemployment benefits, etc., etc.

Bush will sign because he has no choice unless he wants to be remembered as "the President who killed Wall Street".

Fiscal conservative Republicans, have philosophical objections and are naturally opposed to this legislation and have to run again for re-election. They will not vote for it because they have to face the peasants with pitchforks back in their districts. They will use this as their gift from God to separate themselves from George W. Bush after 8 years of kissing his ass. They will run away from George as fast as they can and as publicly as they can.

Ultimately there may no deal at all because you just can't get enough people to agree on anything and the whole thing will collapse and Bush will be blamed.

Now that McCain has foolishly gone to Washington and tried to play superhero - guess what? It becomes HIS mess too and he owns it now. He would have been smart to keep it at arm's length and played cool about it like Obama.

Doug

[CoffeeCat]

11. Thank you...

...that makes a great deal of sense.

That's a decent, "Occam's Razor" explanation. And it does make sense.

McCain has really screwed it all up, though...hasn't he? When you announce to the world, "Here I come to
save the day" in some dramatic, PR stunt--and you go in and hoark things up--you look like a foolish oaf.

I think McCain must be close to having a nervous breakdown.

[goodgd_yall]

7. The Republicans are trying to convince people

they are for the taxpayer. They see their losing and trying to pull something out of their collective ass to save their party from defeat in November.

Bush doesn't have to worry about reelection. He's already been given the shaft by his party too. I think he actually may sincerely (did I just write that?) be trying to avert a bigger crisis.

[iceman66]

8. Basically,

The bailout is very unpopular but drastic measures may in fact be necessary due to the magnitude of the mess the Republicans have made of the economy.

Thus, while the Republicans would like to see the bailout pass, they would like the Democrats to take the fall for it. They're counting on the Democrats to do the 'responsible' thing and pass a bailout bill while they play politics and get ready to stab them in the back.

What makes this 1000% worse is that there was movement toward a bipartisan agreement before MCCAIN went and pulled his stunt yesterday and politicized the issue.

If this thing blows up, it will largely be on McCain's shoulders.

[goodgd_yall]

14. Very well explained. n/t

[CoffeeCat]

18. Thanks...and that all makes sense...

I also agree about McCain.

I think he is becoming a political pariah.

Everything he touches, turns to sh*$.

[Loge23]

10. This is power play for McCain

This is clearly an attempt to prop up McCain as the hero.
I wrote this opinion yesterday, tonight it is all coming clear.
I also wrote yesterday that Obama was walking into trap by going to the WH meeting.
Unfortunately, that's looking true at this point.
I'd much rather have been wrong.

[CoffeeCat]

15. How do you think...

...that McCain ends up the hero in this situation...by stopping the bailout or helping
it to pass?

How do you see Obama's attendance at the meeting as walking into a trap?

I thought it was highly interesting that Obama was the only meeting member
who gave an immediate press event--detailing the meeting, what happened and
his opinions. McCain didn't do that. He was on the subway!

I thought that was really odd. That had to be agreed upon or orchestrated.
I almost felt as if Obama had been given the upper hand--by allowing him to
speak about the meeting. He looked Presidential, and McCain was AWOL, so
he didn't look like the leader that Obama did.

[Loge23]

24. It remains to be seen...

...but, if the repukes rewrite this thing - and it's passed, who will get the credit? McCain.
Look, I totally agree that he's out to lunch on this whole affair, but the push back on the tentative deal is a last chance "winner take all" (excuse the gambling metaphor!) shot by the pukes at snatching victory from the jaws of defeat.
If that scenario plays out, Obama will be cast as the fly in the ointment.
Remember, the pukes are playing on their perceived stupidity of the voter.
No matter how reviled the shrub is, he's not about to help get Obama get elected - something stinks here.

[deadparrot]

26. Bullshit.

McCain's not being cast as a hero, by either the media or his colleagues in Congress.

[Loge23]

31. and what do the polls say about that today? (eom)

[FrenchieCat]

13. Here it is in short and sweet:

The Republicans created a mess with their deregulation to the extreme ideology.

That mess has turn to shit that is just about to hit the fan.

The only way to turn off the fan is if a rescue bill is signed.

The Dems, who put Country First, are willing to turn off the fan with caveats.

The Republicans in search of a political issue have decided to let the Dems turn off the fan by themselves, and are saying they won't vote for the bill.

The Democrats are saying, that's not going to happen, we are not voting for this bill by ourselves, as this is a Republican mess. Either we all turn off the fan together for the good of the country, or let the shit fly where it may, because we are not to blame for this shit to begin with.

When the shit hits the fan, not only will the Republicans be blamed,
but all Americans, will be covered with shit.......

The Republicans are at a checkmate, as long as the Democrats don't blink.

[CoffeeCat]

17. Thanks Frenchiecat...

You always have something enlightening to say!

I appreciate your posts.

:)

[PeaceNikki]

19. Would the rescue bill really stop it or just delay the inevitable?

[FrenchieCat]

23. Depends on what happened afterwards.....

If we elect Obama as President, get out of Iraq, and start acting with good faith, the confidence instilled from this good faith and good will could put us back on the road to recovery....as long as we start investing in our own infrastructure, education, and new economy job creation.

If we elect McCain, China will swallow us whole....because even they would feel that we are more of a liability than an asset for the economy....and that militarily, we are still a threat to the world without consistency.

[complain jane]

27. ah HAH

Finally it makes sense. Thanks so much!

[Youphemism]

16. Use Occam's Razor: What sounds more plausible, concocted crisis or Bush buffoonery?

You can see it in their faces when they talk. This week Bush looked like he could use a Prozac enema.

There are definitely those who took advantage of this situation, but I think they're mostly folks in the financial markets who saw that folks were asleep at the wheel.

The Sarbanes Oxley Act that resulted from the Enron scandal requires companies to track and manage business risks. The various software packages that companies use to ensure Sarbanes-Oxley requirements include many features for risk management. Because this software contains all the company data, most compliance applications include pretty impressive tracking features for business trends -- even though trends are not really a compliance issue.

Those trend reports you can generate are just a natural and very helpful benefit from complying with the law -- as long as you have all that data, why not use it for business and forecasting purposes.

The forecast reports for all those failed institutions -- which are required to use compliance software -- would have provided 1-3 years of warning about the foreclosure trend.

Yes, there were people who saw this problem coming and profited. But if you looked into Bush's eyes when he spoke to the nation, you saw a scared child reporting to his teacher that he'd lost the folder that contained all his homework for the semester.

If he'd tried to take advantage of this catastrophe, he would have botched it.

[ellie]

28. It seems to me there are three sides,

like you mentioned.

The Bush-Paulson $700 billion plan.

The Democrats' pay a little at a time plan.

The repukes' plan that had something to do with tax cuts. I can't find the thread now.

I find it hilarious that the repukes are digging in their heels when in previous instances they couldn't kiss Bush's ass fast enough.

McSame looks like a goddamned idiot.

[Two Americas]

29. not so complicated

Every day working people are overwhelmingly opposed to this. The representatives have to pay attention to that whether they are Republicans or not.

The better off people, and wannabes and sycophants, are in favor of this, be they "liberal" or not.

While the Republicans represent the interests of the very wealthy, the Republican representatives still need to go back and face their constituents, and the public is angry now.

The Democrats have come to represent and answer to the core group of activists and contributers, and those people are upscale, gentrified, successful and mostly from the upper 10% income bracket, and while they are liberal on social issues they are perhaps the most conservative group of people in the country on economic issues. That is why there is so much confusion and infighting within the Democratic party, why Democrats are so weak as an opposition force to the right wing, and why Democrats are so slow to respond to the general population in situations like this.

[seabeyond]

30. to all of you that took the time to explain it.... thank you. was nice having so many explanations

on one thread, and easy to read.