Dean: "Always seemed ready to abandon his cause...."

[Dookus]

From Slate:

http://www.slate.msn.com/id/2093412/

Here's a review of a new book about Howard Dean:

The book relies in many places on All Politics Is Personal, a memoir by Ralph Wright, the Democratic speaker of the Vermont House during much of Dean's political life in the state. "I guess this was the one thing I never could understand about Howard Dean. He always seemed so ready to abandon his cause at the first sign of defeat," Wright complains. "Maybe it was his medical training that toughened him to the certain failures that awaited us all. Maybe it was an unwillingness to have any cause at all, at least any cause for which he was willing to risk his political skin. … It wasn't just causes he was willing to abandon, he was capable of acting the same with people."



And Dean now wants to paint Clark as indecisive? And this quote is from the DEMOCRATIC speaker of Vermont's assembly during Dean's tenure.

[Scott Lee]

1. Uh huh. That's why he came from an unknown to the frontrunner

Yup, he has all the signs of weak willed loser alright.

*cough* *urp*.

[democratreformed]

20. kick n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

32. He knows how to put together a "dog and pony" show. THAT'S what

he's good at.... It's all show biz.

[blm]

44. Corporate media. Dean was a great divider for the Dem party.

Rove's easy choice. Loose cannons are easy to spot.

[Capn Sunshine]

49. Hey, speaking of show biz, when are Madonna / Clark doing a song together

I hope they have it ready for the fourth of July parade

[Don Claybrook]

2. So he's afraid to risk his political skin, is he?

That's why he attended the pro-war rallies, because it was popular, right?

That's why he showed up on the steps of Congress begging to be a senator for a day so that he might vote for IWR, yes?

I know nothing about this Wright fellow, but this one just doesn't wash.

[Dookus]

6. *shrug*

take it up with Wright. *I* didn't say those words - he did.

[blm]

48. Huh? What events are you talking about?

Can you please explain?

[liberalnurse]

3. Oh, thank you for sharing......

My fellow Dean supporters now can assist with setting the post comment straight in multiple, multiple rebuttals. Thank you for the opportunity to enlighten the democratic audience.


:hug:

[Dookus]

9. well....

since your post says nothing about the original post, I don't know what to say other than "you're welcome"

Would anybody care to explain why the Democratic speaker of Vermont's assembly felt that way?

[bowens43]

4. Sorry

but Clark has painted Clark as indecisive. All you have to do is look at what little history there is on him. Maybe it's not indecision maybe he just has really poor judgment. You have to wonder about anyone who would vote for Nixon , vote for Reagan twice and shower lavish praise on the current administration.

[Dookus]

8. a quote:

Q: Rate Bush
A: I think he's doing a fine job on the war on terrorism

-Howard Dean, July, 2002

[blm]

5. Like he said he wanted to push healthcare for all

but never tried to push it through once it looked like it wouldn't happen, and never pursued it as a priority.

He did keep pushing electricity deregulation, though. And he pushed for Yucca Mt. as nuclear dump since 1996.

[bearfartinthewoods]

30. and nafta

[blm]

53. Everything he chose to push was PRO-business and PRO-donor.

.

[stinkeefresh]

7. well, he's for sure not an idealogue...

I guess perhaps if any "defeats" were due to his plans running up against the will of Vermonters, I'd want him to back off.

Some leaders truly want to enact the will of the people, not their own plans. Those people do a lot of listening and a lot of changing of their own minds.

The role of the Clerk in a Friend's Meeting is similar: the Clerk doesn't fight for anything- their own ideology, ego and will is not the point- the only point is understanding and enacting the will of the meeting.

I know Dean's not a Quaker, but maybe he's just not interested in pushing through unpopular legislation just because it came from his desk.

[blm]

13. He pushed electricity deregulation for years

even though it was unpopular. Thankfully, the legislature never gave in.

[KaraokeKarlton]

15. "Years"?

Not really. He only supported it until he saw how it worked for other states who did do it and then he wanted nothing to do with it anymore. Of course, this has been proven on this forum many, many times but it doesn't stop some people from beating on another dead horse endlessly.

:eyes:

[KittyWampus]

16. This Is A Complete Mischaracterisation Of Dean

your rolling eyes emoticon notwithstanding.

He fought for energy deregulation using the same scheme that had already failed consumers in Quebec.

It was the Legislature that prevented it.

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. Link?

I suspect that you have no idea what the utility situation was in Vermont. Dean was looking for a solution to a very serious and ongoing problem. He was looking at deregulation as a possibility. Then he saw what happened in California and immediately stopped supporting deregulation. I love the way people outside of my state think they know what is true about things and events here better than I do.

:eyes:

[blm]

17. Dismissing it won't work, KK. Yes...for years.

He was hawking it at the CATO Institute in 1997 that we know of, and he was still pushing it till California's problems in 2001. Then, all of a sudden, he stopped pushing.

That's nice. Except many Dems and experts had told him deregulation doesn't work for all those years. Dean needed worst case scenario to HAPPEN before his eyes to convince him? A real Democrat would not have been pushing dereg in the first place. Dean's Libertarian instincts in regard to business is what I DETEST the most about him.

[Scott Lee]

21. Was that during the time Kerry was messing with offshore tax shelters?

Just wondering.

[KaraokeKarlton]

25. Sounds about right, Scott

Kerry had separated from his first rich wife during that time, so he didn't have the ability to live high on the hog. Lucky for him he found another sugar momma to take care of him.

[Scott Lee]

26. Ah yes - the Duchess of Heinz. The royal We.

LOL, thanks for reminding me of that. I almost forgot about Mama Warbucks Number One.

[bearfartinthewoods]

35. and now the ex wife....

hide the wimmin and children...the dean supporters are gettin' desperate.

[bearfartinthewoods]

33. ohhhh a new strategy from team dean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

attack the wife of another candidate.

hey....what else can they do? defending dean is sooooooo hard.

[blm]

39. Glad more people will get to know you.

Thanks for sharing your deep, well considered thoughts.

[bearfartinthewoods]

31. dean team strategy number 2

deflect any discussion of dean with a counter attack.

defending the man is just too hard nowadays....

[bobbyboucher]

45. Apparenty, Dean is wiping

his ass with Kerry, I wonder if that is because people hate what Dean has to say and just love what Kerry stands for, but just cannot tell a pollster that? Maybe you can help me with that. Why is Dean wiping his ass with Kerry?

[blm]

40. If you don't like deals why are you supporting a corporatist like Dean.

Gee...sorry you are so deeply disturbed by Dean's corporatism you need to smear Kerry with bogus charges that never amounted to any wrongdoing and which Kerry handled in the most ethical way possible.

Sorry Dean keeps you so knotted up inside with rage for his longtime record of corporatism that you can't express, so you attack one of the LEAST corporate candidates to assuage your tension.

[KaraokeKarlton]

24. yawn

Kerry's lying about Howard Dean is what I detest about him most. Well, that and his desire to force unpaid child labor onto my children against their and my will.

[blm]

47. That's an answer to Dean's support for electricity deregulation?

I hope you aren't expecting to be a Dem spokesperson for Dean at any point. It will NOT be helpful.

[Dookus]

38. Here's an example

of how good Dean is on energy policy:


Lights out: In one of Dean's first major decisions as governor, he sided with power companies in favor of a 25-year contract to purchase electricity from Quebec. Environment groups opposed the project because of Hydro-Quebec's damming of state rivers; human-rights groups worried about the fate of the Cree Indians, whose land would be flooded; and consumer groups worried whether the plan would even save Vermont money. The consumer groups, at least, turned out to be right: "In the late 1990s, Vermont's two biggest power companies nearly became insolvent as they struggled to pay what turned out to be high costs for Quebec power." Vermont consumers and businesses received "steep rate increases."

from the same slate article referenced in the OP.

[Sensitivity]

54. Gues we are electing a Politician after all.

[maxanne]

10. that's all I need to hear

if Dean can't get the coveted Ralph Wright endorsement - I'm not supporting him.

:eyes:

[retyred]

11. LOL!!!

retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[slinkerwink]

12. oh, so Dean didn't risk his skin by being anti-war or pro-abortion, or by

signing the civil unions bill?

Okay, now I believe this guy.

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. This is really quite silly

Dean didn't just "abandon" things. There were a few things he wanted to try to do and saw that the original idea didn't stand any chance of passing so he took a different route towards the same goal that WOULD pass. That's called being innovative and it's a great quality to have because it allows you to actually accomplish things. It's also why he was such an effective and successful governor.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[democratreformed]

19. "Abandoning causes and people"? Kind of like this...?

Would an example of that be when he replaced Charles H. McHugh, the Chairman and on of only two Democrats on the Labor Relations Board with a bank executive?

Link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Deans_Labor_History/

All the info is in the "Files".

[John_H]

22. Just another DLC whore, right Dean supporters?

Like Carville and Phillips. And unlike Tweety and Paula Zahn amd Frank Lunz who are suddenly grrrrrrreat!

[Scott Lee]

27. Hey don't blame us if Carville turned out to be a pus-bucket.

That was entirely his call.

Maybe its the hair thing, who knows.

[dave29]

29. I'll give you the others

they talk out of both sides of their mouths.

But Carville? Trashing a fellow Democrat and his supporters so publically?

Suicide.

[Cheswick2.0]

36. Paula Zahn is just a plain old corporate mediawhore

keep your right and appeasement wings straight

[dave29]

28. Incrementalism

whaddya know, it works

Rather than pushing for the whole deal, lets just get something done, please. That way the most people can benefit.

[Cheswick2.0]

34. another hit on Dean from Slate, no surprise

!

[Dookus]

37. the quote is from a new book

not from Slate. Slate just reviewed the book.

But you knew that.

[LiberalEconomist]

41. I humbly disagree

Dean has stayed with his cause from the beginning. Dean has stood up and injected the party establishment with a fighting spirit that we have not seen in a long time. Dean has done a noble thing in giving the Democrats at least a real shot at taking back the presidency. Without Dean we would have one of our "business-as-usual" Congressional candidates (with the wonderful exception of Dennis Kucinich) run a plastic/flavorless campaign against the BEAST. Dean has herded these folks (Dems) into the cellar and has paved the way for Clark. Yes folks, I am a Clark supporter and I admit that without Howard Dean Wes Clark would not have a legit shot at the Dem nomination.

[shance]

42. This is qualified. Looks to me like Wright had a beef with the Governor.

and instead of owning or explaining his criticism, he proceeded made an unjustified, non-referenced attack on Governor Dean?

What is the context of this quote, the character of the man that said it (if hes compelled to go after Deans character), and his relationship to Governor Dean. Always two sides to a situation, and here we get one quote.


If Ralph Wright was going to attack Governor Dean, to make any criticism the least valid, it needs to be backed up with more than just a tacky, rather unreliable characterization.


There are also individuals who will always have something negative to say, quite often stemming from a chip on their shoulder for whatever reason.

Hmm...kind of like some of the candidates who are behind in the polls right now......

[democratreformed]

50. Maybe Wright joined many others in being upset about Charles McHugh

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Deans_Labor_History/

Be sure to look in the Files section

[Paragon]

43. I'm reading this book now

And, believe me, this "article" is a hack job, for the most part. It's a good, informative, fair read.

[blm]

46. You mean like abandon the repeal of all taxcuts cause?

?

[JaneQPublic]

51. Here's another Vermonter's view

Peter Freyne -- a local columnist following Vermont politics for years. In the bold quote, Freyne characterizes Wright as saying Dean never considered quitting -- which totally contradicts the Slate quote.

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean0702/freyneint.html

QUESTION: What are some of his (Dean's) strengths and weaknesses?

FREYNE: He's smart, he's willing to learn, he's goal-oriented. He's a Scorpio--Scorpios are fighters, warriors. It's a warrior nature. He's ruled by the planet Mars, the red planet. He's got backbone. And goal-oriented. I think the possibility of being president is something that didn't just pop into his head--it was there in the 1980s. Because what he knew that nobody else knew here was that he was born to lead--very successful background. Ralph Wright, Ralph had a book All Politics is Personal, his memoir. And the line about Howard Dean was that with Howard Dean losing was never part of the equation. He had such confidence that not succeeding was never a consideration, and that if something doesn't work it was like, okay, try something else.

QUESTION: Some of the people I've talked to have said there's an arrogance.

FREYNE: All people who want to be president are arrogant, or even governors; I mean there is that in them. It's called leadership. You want a mamby pampy?

QUESTION: What do you think about the notion of him running for president?

FREYNE: To me it's exciting. It's once again. First the Bernie Sanders thing...

This is a state comprised mainly of small towns, though people move to urban areas. But that still lingers on. Howard Dean I think has a great respect for politics and democracy. Politics is a good thing I think. It beats the rest of the world shooting one another.

So he's a man with a plan. He's the man with the plan. And the remarkable thing about him is he's always kept it close. He's not a braggart; he's not a pompous SOB. What he believes in he believes in strongly, but he's still a doctor by training. Doctors by training sometimes have to tell people you are not going to live. And all doctors have to learn that. And the politicians don't. Politicians are trained to tell you you're going to live forever. So bringing that doctor thing into it, he'll be real and he'll be be straight...

[w4rma]

52. Clark on whether he'd have voted on the IWR

Clark Says He Would Have Voted for War
September 19, 2003, Friday
…
General Clark said that he would have advised members of Congress to support the authorization of war but that he thought it should have had a provision requiring President Bush to return to Congress before actually invading. Democrats sought that provision without success.

"At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question," General Clark said.

A moment later, he said: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position — on balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
"I want to clarify — we're moving quickly here," Ms. Jacoby said. "You said you would have voted for the resolution as leverage for a U.N.-based solution."

"Right," General Clark responded. "Exactly."

General Clark said he saw his position on the war as closer to that of members of Congress who supported the resolution — Representative Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri and Senators Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut, John Kerry of Massachusetts and John Edwards of North Carolina — than that of Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who has been the leading antiwar candidate in the race.

Still, asked about Dr. Dean's criticism of the war, General Clark responded: "I think he's right. That in retrospect we should never have gone in there. I didn't want to go in there either. But on the other hand, he wasn't inside the bubble of those who were exposed to the information."
…
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/19/politics/campaigns/19CLAR.html

Clark Explains Statement on Authorization for Iraq War
September 20, 2003, Saturday
…
"I never would have voted for war," he said here this afternoon in an interview and in response to a question after a lecture at the University of Iowa. "What I would have voted for is leverage. Leverage for the United States to avoid a war. That's what we needed to avoid a war."

Speaking about the resolution on Thursday, General Clark said, "At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question."

He then added: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways, because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position. On balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
About Iraq, he said "There was never an imminent threat," and called the war "a major blunder."

"We're not the sort of `you're with us or against' kind of people," he said.

"We're a come-and-join-with-us kind of people," he told a crowd of 1,000 in the main lounge of the Iowa Memorial Union. "Americans know in their hearts that you don't make our country safer by erecting walls to keep others out. You make us safer by building bridges to reach out.

"We also have to recognize that force should be used only as a last resort, when all other means have failed."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/20/politics/campaigns/20CLAR.html

Clark on whether he'd have voted on the IWR and Dean's response
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=401401