*********An open letter to PUMAS who read this board********

[Nikki Stone1]

NOTE TO THE MODS: This is a sincere and urgent post to all those who identify as PUMA and intend to vote for John McCain in November. I am of the personal belief that a McCain/Palin win would be devastating for this country and I am trying reach some of our fellow Democrats in hopes that we can all vote for the better choice in November. A thread like this is bound to attract certain types of "flaming" posts, but this is under NO circumstances intended as flamebait. I ask you to allow this thread to remain open, regardless of what junk others attach to it. This issue is crucially important. In return, I promise not to engage any flaming posts, but completely ignore them.

Thank you,

Nikki Stone

___________________________________________________________________________________________
**********************************************************************************************
An open letter to PUMAS who read this board
**********************************************************************************************

I imagine that there are a lot of PUMAs who still lurk on this board. I don't know for sure, but I am guessing that there are and hoping that there are.

I also imagine that many of you saw the recent Huffington Post article on "how to talk to PUMAs".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lea-lane/eat-crow-hell-yes-to-win_b_126712.html

While I applaud Lea Lane for understanding that it is much more helpful to get PUMA votes back than to lose them (by accusing PUMAs of racism, "sore loser" syndrome, or the like), I believe that she is completely off the mark in her diagnosis of the problem and has, as an unfortunate consequence, recommended the wrong cure. The issue is NOT about irrational emotions and letting PUMAs "vent". The issue is not about some kind of hero worship of Hillary Clinton, so Hillary must be praised to the stars. And PUMAs do not have to be "handled" like mentally ill teenagers who have just tried to slit their wrists. Sadly, in implying that the political stand made by PUMAs is based entirely on personal emotion, Lane has fed into some of the worst recurring anti-female stereotypes. I hereby sentence Lane to 100 lashes with a wet noodle, as Ann Landers used to do. And Lea, I cook my pasta al dente, so there might be a slight sting. :)

In reality, the base of PUMAs' political stand comes from cold, hard facts which have led to perceptions of injustice, disenfranchisement, and corruption. I have mentioned some of your very real concerns on the thread below and see no need to rehash them:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6981285

But my plea today is to try and get you to see why voting the Democratic ticket is actually better for the health and welfare of the country and better for all of the normal American people who don't have enough money to own a yacht or play in the high stakes poker game that is the derivatives market. This is despite the sins of the leadership.

It is a hard sell, I know, and perhaps I'm being overoptimistic here, but I am not trying to sell you a Ford Focus and call it a Mercedes. Sometimes, despite the evils of an organization, the larger principles stand out and are actually served by the organization, in spite of itself. That may sound contradictory, but it is my belief that it is easier to hold the feet of one's own to the fire than the feet of the opposition. I also believe that for every rotten leader in an organization, there are many decent people who are in (or can approach) positions of power. For example: for every molesting priest, there are 90 others working in drug infested neighborhoods, poverty stricken countries, and praying for hours in monasteries. For every greedy big TV preacher, there are others living on small salaries trying to help a failing steel town come to grips with life or building an orphanage for children in another country where their parents have been killed as a result of war. In other words, organizations contain both the most hellish of sinners and the most exalted of saints. To abandon the organization because of one power hungry Cardinal (are you listening Mahoney???) means, also, to abandon the priest in the heart of Washington DC who is moonlighting performing weddings so he can pay for a rehab program for his crack addicted neighbors. (Yeah, he's a real priest. I've met him. He hates the GOP.)

Because of this belief, I choose to stay with the Democratic party, support the good, and hold the feet of the power-abusers to the fire. I would ask you to join me, because, God knows, we need your help.

But we also need to insure that our principles find their way to the White House this year. I'd like to briefly talk to you about our principles (and about those of the GOP) and ask you to really think about which principles are more likely to help this country and which are more likely to lead it further down the destructive path on which it has been driven for almost eight years by the current administration.

Before I begin, I would like to BEG you, please, ignore any trollish or silly comments that get attached to this thread. You have to know, as well as I do, that there are some people on DU (as well as other message boards) who just have to make snarky, irrelevant, or obscene comments, usually in between mouthfuls of Red Bull and Cheetos. You also have to know that there are some partisans that are so extremely partisan, that even my reaching out to you bothers them immensely. They prefer to think of you as racists or menopausal women having hot flashes (even the males!) because it keeps their world view simple and uncomplicated.

So, please, if you can, just focus on what I am trying to say here and not on what some of the more enthusiastically bizarre posters (especially those with low post counts) might have to say. Thank you.


It's the platform

Below are links to the PDFs of both parties' platforms. I urge you to download these and at least skim over them. They are very revealing, even down to the order in which the contents are organized.

www.demconvention.com/the-democratic-platform
www.gop.com/pdf/PlatformFINAL_WithCover.pdf


A party's platform reflects the party's values, and most of us who identify strongly with a particular party choose the party based on it values as reflected in that platform. As Democrats, we have certain values that distinguish us from the GOP. I will only point out three broad based values, but these contain many different policies within them.

(1) Government has a role in making life better for people and its functions cannot and should not be "privatized."
(The public sector is NOT for profit and public resources need to remain public. It makes them accountable to ALL citizens)


(2) The good of communities and community projects is just as important as the good of the individual.
(The building of infrastructure--roads & highways, schools, sewage and water systems, etc.--serves communities and is just as important writing good
legislation to protect individual rights.)


(3) Government is not in the business of taking away rights but is in the business of insuring that all citizens get the rights to which they are entitled as Americans.
(It is government's place to prevent some of its citizens from taking away the rights of others through discrimination, etc. It is NOT government's
business to dictate religious practices to any of its citizens or to curtail their speech, right to assemble, etc.)



These three broad based values are in turn based on the idea of the common good, or as the preamble to the Constitution says to "promote the general welfare." To have an idea of common good, you have to have a basic value that all people matter, not just some. If the floodwaters overwhelm the poor 9th ward of New Orleans or the better-off Florida Keys, ALL of those people matter and ALL of those people need to be helped. A government should never ignore victims of a natural disaster because they are not wealthy or because they are not of one's own party. ALL PEOPLE MATTER because all are part of our commonwealth.

If you read through the Democratic Platform, you see these values in action: Look at the section on Social Security ( which the Democrats are promising to preserve, (pg 13)) and healthcare (11-13). I realize that many feel that Hillary Clinton had the better health care plan, but if you look at the GOP platform (pg 44), the essential healthcare "plan" is to do nothing specific. If you read carefully, they want to "improve people's access" to healthcare but they don't really say what that means. Then they talk about protecting health care providers from "frivolous lawsuits" (in other words, they'll drive down costs by taking away your ability to sue for malpractice); they talk about "interstate competition" (pg 40) meaning they will try to drive down cost by taking away the local aspect to healthcare and allow families and groups to purchase health insurance across interstate lines. This inevitably means that the larger HMOs will be able to provide cheaper rates (if not better service) and smaller carriers will be put out of business. This will result in a consolidation of healthcare in the hands of a few conglomerates (can you see the mergers and the takeovers?) with fewer choices for consumers and, certainly, higher costs in the long run as there will be LESS competition, not more.

Look at the Democratic platform, pg. 14, on rights for workers and reinstating overtime pay (which the Bush administration took away.) The GOP platform (pg 23/24) says nothing about overtime pay and feels that the best way to protect the worker is to lower taxes. However, if you are already in lower tax brackets, you are not paying much in tax anyway and working overtime won't help you earn more under the GOP plan.

I could go through many specifics, and if anyone on this board is truly interested in comparing points from the two platforms, PLEASE do so. It would help so much.

I ask all lurking PUMAs to PLEASE read both platforms.

It is so clear when I read the platforms which one fits my values and which one doesn't. The GOP platform starts with terrorism, 911, war: terra all the time! The Democratic platform talks about making OUR country stronger from within--making our people stronger, which is the best form of national security.

Please read the platforms.

If, for any reason, you would like to talk to me, I am at [e-mail].


Nikki

[AtomicKitten]

1. Sorry but their unyielding position is based on emotion and that renders them impervious to reason.

It is the only logical explanation for someone voting against their own self-interests.

However, kudos to you for trying.

* edited for continuity

[Nikki Stone1]

2. Peace

peace.

[AtomicKitten]

3. .

(consolidated post above)

[Midlodemocrat]

I voted against mine twice

I voted for Gore and then for Kerry. My own self interest would have had me aligned with Bush and his tax cuts.

There are more of us than you think. A lot of people with good sized incomes still have a soul.

[AtomicKitten]

77. So, does your soul tell you to vote for pro-life, pro-war candidates?

Because if it does, McCain-Palin is for you.

[Midlodemocrat]

92. So, does your reading comprehension completely suck

or just while you're on DU?

Christ. Read the fucking post before you post something that makes you look like a total dumbass.

[AtomicKitten]

96. you made very clear you are more in line with the Rs re: your pocketbook

Apparently issues such as war and choice take a backseat in your deliberative process, and you just confirmed it.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Midlodemocrat]

97. I made it very clear I voted AGAINST my pocketbook.

God. You can't make this kind of stupid up.

What part about my voting FOR Gore and FOR Kerry and against my own self interest didn't you get? Apparently all of it.

[Nikki Stone1]

99. If it helps, I got it.

Thanks for being persistent. :)

[Midlodemocrat]

100. Thank you. Feels like I'm hitting my head against a brick wall

sometimes in this forum. No one READS anymore, they just react.

FWIW, I'm not sure I believe that there are a lot of PUMAs, but I completely understand and appreciate your heartfelt request to the ones that may exist to get on board.

GOBAMA!

[Nikki Stone1]

101. I know. Reading as a skill seems to be seeping out of our culture

I do appreciate your support and we have to win this one. I want a Democrat in the White House!

[Midlodemocrat]

102. At the risk of sounding

cocky, I feel it in my bones. I think it will be a landslide like no other we've ever seen.

That's my fervent prayer, at least.

[Nikki Stone1]

104. I wish I had certainty in my bones like you.

I'll live on your certainty for awhile, ok? :)

[Midlodemocrat]

106. I'm just going by what I saw at the primaries here.

The county actually ran out of democratic ballots. People were in line for hours waiting to vote.

And, the youth vote is being overlooked. My daughter is 18 and her friends and she are thrilled to be voting for Obama. Any kid who indicates that they will be voting for McCain is roundly shouted down and generally by the end of the evening, changes his/her mind.

It's been a beautiful thing to watch. I have to credit DU with a lot fo the education here as well.

My 16yo son took on a friend who is a staunch Republican the other day and essentially, yet respectfully and kindly, tore him a new one armed with only, if you can imagine, the facts.

Imagine!! The facts!!!

[Nikki Stone1]

108. Those kids need to show up at the polls.

No keg parties during that first week of November! :D

[Midlodemocrat]

111. Oh, believe you me, they will. We organized a carpool

just last night for my daughter and her friends to come home to vote.

Remember, this is the first election for this demographic. They aren't going to miss out on it.

[Nikki Stone1]

113. Well, here's to thousands of carpools!

:toast:

[Blue_In_AK]

167. I get it, Midlo

I got it the first time. It seems like knee jerks rule around here sometimes.

[Life Long Dem]

94. Well if they're voting on emotions, they may feel good that a candidate of theirs was chosen

But that great feeling of emotional happiness won't last long (like a drug it wears off), then when someone like McSame signs his policies into law, your emotions of happiness will turn into anger. Then you might realize that you were only voting on your emotions. And this makes no logical sense on choosing how YOU want your life run, and not how happy you will be someone your emotions wanted to win.

[AtomicKitten]

105. It appears the bitterness still lingers as they grudgingly realize a vote for the GOP ticket

... would be suicide. They are itching for confrontation here at DU to assuage some of that bitterness which, as it turns out, is clearly an emotional response to their circumstance.

[Nikki Stone1]

109. Have there actually been threads like that?

And do you have links?

[Nikki Stone1]

115. ?

?

[AtomicKitten]

116. Um, hello?! This one for a start.

[Nikki Stone1]

117. Huh?

" It appears the bitterness still lingers as they grudgingly realize a vote for the GOP ticket... would be suicide. They are itching for confrontation here at DU to assuage some of that bitterness which, as it turns out, is clearly an emotional response to their circumstance."

This is your quote.

Now here is mine from the top of the post:

"NOTE TO THE MODS: This is a sincere and urgent post to all those who identify as PUMA and intend to vote for John McCain in November. I am of the personal belief that a McCain/Palin win would be devastating for this country and I am trying reach some of our fellow Democrats in hopes that we can all vote for the better choice in November. A thread like this is bound to attract certain types of "flaming" posts, but this is under NO circumstances intended as flamebait. I ask you to allow this thread to remain open, regardless of what junk others attach to it. This issue is crucially important. In return, I promise not to engage any flaming posts, but completely ignore them."


I have certainly kept my temper and have kept out of arguments. I am trying to reach people that many Obama supporters are trying to throw away. I have neither fought with you nor with anyone else. I meant what I said in the post.

So why are you accusing me?

[AtomicKitten]

118. You would be better served arguing your OP on caphill but you'd probably be TS'd there if you did.

DU has come together for Obama-Biden. Your OP really isn't for this audience.

I realize you probably think you are doing a service, but in reality you are perpetuating the divide with this rehash of a long-over primary battle.

We don't have the time, energy, or resources to coddle the disaffected when it is based on poor sportsmanship. An informed vote devoid of emotion (bitterness) is the mark of good citizenship, carrying a grudge when it conflicts with one's own self-interests is not.

[Nikki Stone1]

122. You are welcome to your opinion, of course

And if I had access to PUMA boards (or cared to post on them) then you are possibly right: this message might better suit that kind of board. In the absence of that kind of membership or access, I've decided to post it here. I have lurked on enough other types of boards (some that cannot be mentioned because they are too conservative or too progressive) to know that DU ex-pats monitor this board frequently.

There is also an additional advantage to posting here: I am a Democrat, am voting Obama, but I am reaching out FROM HERE to the PUMA. Threads like mine give a voice to the DUers who are not so hardline and who want our Democrats back. I believe that my posts make DU more inviting to our fellow Dems who feel alienated from here. You must know, looking through the posts on this board, how very narrow the thinking is and how vindictive many are against those who still have respect for Bill Clinton. By putting my posts on DU, I am showing another side to DU and to the Democratic Party. It is important that the party NOT CLOSE ITSELF OFF to our former colleagues.

[TheBigotBasher]

175. It will not be when he signs his first piece

of legislation, it will be when some of the few true Democrats who got caught up in this RNC front realise the patsies that they were taken for. Every Party has anger after Primaries. Romney supporters hate Huckabee (they call him bigotbee).

Real Democrats should once the election is over turn their attention to dealing with these disgraceful people who have done nothing but undermine Hillary Clinton, politically through hatesites and financially by claiming that they cleared all her debts.

Republiscum, the genie is out of the bottle. You took advantage of division caused by the Primaries. Lesson learnt for the next time.

[Nikki Stone1]

179. Which disgraceful people, the Republicans?

Just want to get that clarified.

[TheBigotBasher]

206. Indeed

and any Party members who worked with these organisations during the Campaign, against the Party candidate.

As for the organisations themselves, if some of their actions were not illegal, they should be. Is it really legal for disgustingly smarmy people like Will Bower to claim on TV and in their KKK blogs that the campaign debts of Hillary Clinton were cleared by July 4th?

[angee_is_mad]

4. K&R

thanks, sista:applause:

[krispos42]

5. Can you please edit your post?

All those uninterrupted astericks at the top make it too wide for my screen. I have to scroll the page left and right in order to read it, and if I'm having problems others probably are (or will) too.

Lop off about the last ¼ of the astericks and you should be okay.


Thanks in advance.

[Nikki Stone1]

6. OK

Will do.

[krispos42]

7. Maybe a little more. It's better, but still needs scrolling.

It looks like the word "November" in the first line is about as far as the astericks should go. My fault; I should have used that as a reference point earlier!

:-)

Thanks again.

[Nikki Stone1]

9. How's that?

Far enough over?

[krispos42]

12. Beautiful!

Perfect!

:thumbsup:

[Nikki Stone1]

35. Great!

:)

[Nikki Stone1]

10. How's that?

Far enough over?

[samuraiguppy]

8. if they are really democrats,

they will come back. They don't have anywhere else to go.:shrug: :shrug:

[Nikki Stone1]

11. Well,they could vote Green

Remember the Nader fiasco in 2000? And people always have a choice, even if it isn't the choice we would take.

Peace.

[BlooInBloo]

21. The fact that they NEVER talk about voting for McKinney shows what their real issue is....

They lie when they talk about feminism.

[Nikki Stone1]

38. Actually, some ARE voting for McKinney from what I have read.

I personally think that is a wasted vote and only helps McCain, but for some, that is a philosophical choice.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

13. I'm glad this election doesnt depend on my patience

with fucking ignorant dimwits who would vote for McCain or not vote for Obama for personal, political, or any other reason. :hi: :puke: :*

[nickgutierrez]

14. The "pumas", like the recent flap over "racial views", are a massively overblown issue.

It's really just the media, looking for a story in the ashes of a primary battle that served them so well, as they milked every last bit of bitter drama that they could get out of it. They know, they just know, that there must be some significant batch of Hillary supporters that are so shocked that she lost that they're angry at Obama, and they're voting McCain because of it.

These people don't exist, and we would be well served to ignore this media-created nonsense.

[RoadRage]

16. You may be right.. but

even if there really are only 14 true "PUMA'S" out there.. we still need their votes. No vote is too un-important in this election to overlook.

[nickgutierrez]

17. If that's the case...

...we would do better to advertise to the constituency of left-handed former steel-workers named Joe who like to eat peanut butter sandwiches for lunch. That's at least the same-sized demographic, and it is at least tangentially related to an actual campaign issue. Outsourcing, in this case.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

26. "left-handed former steel-workers named Joe who like to eat peanut butter sandwiches"

This constituency also deserves and needs its own open letter
and thread, or several.

[nickgutierrez]

31. And weeks of media coverage...

...uncritically asserting its existence.

[Nikki Stone1]

81. Yes, Road Rage, exactly!

There can't be too many votes for the Democratic ticket this time around.

[Nikki Stone1]

86. I disagree with you about PUMAs and about racism/the Bradley effect.

Racism is alive and well in America. True, the media stokes it. But it is really there all the same.

[RoadRage]

15. K&R... This is one of the first posts

That does the following:

A) Acknowledges positively that people who call themselves "PUMA'S" are not really all just trolls. There are some people who really feel that the democratic party stole this away from Hillary - and that because of that the party is currupt and needs to be punished.

Right or wrong - that is thier reality. Acknowledging it rather then brushing it off is smart.

B) WE NEED PUMA'S, DEM'S, DIS-SATISFIED REPUBLICANS, INDEPENDANTS, FIRST TIME VOTERS, SENIORS, BLACKS, WHITES, HISPANICS, ASIANS, GAY'S, TRANSGENDERED, STRAIGT, NATIVE AMERICAN, CATHOLIC, CHRISTIAN, JEWISH, MUSLIM, ETC to ALL VOTE FOR OBAMA.

We can't afford to have the mentality of "Well, we don't NEED their votes". That's total crap. We DO need their votes.. along with everyone elses. This race is going to be another nail biter.. and we've been on the non-currupt side (2000) and the losing side (2004) for too long not to realize this!

C) Actually asks in a nice way for people who are seriously dis-satisfied with the Democratic Party to look at the big-big-big picture. Is the Dem party perfect? NO! But, those same staunch Hillary supporters probably thought the GOP was also a bit shady about a year ago at this time.. with all of the crap Bush has pulled, etc. Look at it this way if you must - perhaps both parties have problems.. but admit that they BOTH have problems. Voting for the GOP just because you're mad at the Democrats doesn't neccessarily fix either party.

D) You didn't try to sell the PUMA's the "dream" that is Obama. This is very key.. so many people like to spout out crap like.. "Obama is so awesome if you don't see what I see, then you're a total idiot.. etc." Not only is that a losing strategy... it's a pointless one. People come to different conclusions about the same person all of the time. Many PUMA's have been HATING Obama for the past 1+ year. Justified or not, they have a very real negative feeling for the guy.. and trying to shove the "Why don't you heart Obama like everyone else are you a racist" memo down their throat is just dumb. Again.. let's point out that Obama & Hillary's proposals.. what they want to do for the country are very similar. Not identicle - but certainly not 180 degree's opposite like McCain/Palin. So, if you've decided you hate Obama but Love Palin.. but you already know you like Obama's policies and hate McCain/Palin's - what choice do you make? Vote for the person you like with the bad policies, or vote for the person you don't like with the good policies?

In 25 years - many of those policies, and the results of those policies will still be around and still be influencing this country, our kids and our grand kids. The memories of the people you like or don't like will be a faded memory.

Puma's - i'm asking you.. for the sake of my kids (3 year old girl; 3 month old boy) - Please vote for Obama.. because his POLICY's like Hillary's are going to make our country a better place for them.

Thanks!

[saracat]

25. Outstanding reply. This should be an OP!

"Look at it this way if you must - perhaps both parties have problems.. but admit that they BOTH have problems. Voting for the GOP just because you're mad at the Democrats doesn't neccessarily fix either party."

This is one of the best arguments I have heard. Thank you.

[Raineyb]

133. I'm sorry but are we rehashing that "nomination was stolen from Clinton" bullshit again?

Because that's what the "primary issues" boil down to and it's complete bullshit and there's no conversation to be had if it's going to be prefaced on complete fantasy.

:thumbsdown:

Regards

[Nikki Stone1]

50. Lord, it's nice to be understood!

Thank you Road Rage. For the first time on this board I feel like somebody gets what I am trying to do. I'd send you a bottle of bubbly if I could. :hi:

[RoadRage]

53. Cyber Bubbly works for me! It's Monday before noon.. the only kind I drink at this hour. ;)

[Nikki Stone1]

57. Well, I'll at least toast you:

:toast:

And I'm sitting here with a cup of stale coffee, but I'll do my best:

:donut:

I will go in search of a champaign gif. :)

[cliffordu]

18. You had one of these posts vanished here just a week or two ago,

didn't ya??

I hope you find ALL the pumas. The three of you can have cocktails.

[Nikki Stone1]

41. Nope. The first PUMA post is still around. I guess I'm just stubborn.

Do you grow tomatoes? I've been wanting to but I am afraid of messing it up.

[Lord Helmet]

19. they are holding a grudge and/or racist and/or dumb

plus they seem to need lots of attention

we've got bigger fish to fry

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raineyb]

168. Oh, lookie a troll!

I don't suppose it occurred to you that perhaps the reason why you've been accused of being a racist is because you're behaving like one? I get so sick of people acting like the word racist is being thrown around out of thin air.

Please take your RW bullshit somewhere else.

I'm not buying.

Regards

[backscatter712]

20. All two PUMAs that still exist are impressed...

IMHO, the PUMA phenomena is pretty much dead.

[Nikki Stone1]

58. Well, then, that's 2 more votes!

And it didn't cost anyone a dime. :)

[democracy1st]

22. K & R for Nikki

[saracat]

23. Wonderful post and thank you for reaching out. We will need every vote!

[Nikki Stone1]

40. Thank you .

We need to override the effect of race on the election and that can only be done by getting every possible vote.

[DevonRex]

162. Saracat, it's lovely to see you here again, supporting Obama.

Someone on a thread last week said they missed you and knew you would come around. I'm so glad to see they were right. :)

[Doremus]

24. If you're so concerned about them you should probably post this at Freeperville.

Because if they haven't come back to the fold by now they aren't going to.

You can believe all you want that it's because of the way they were treated.
I believe, as do many, many others, that they never were Dems to begin with.

Either way I'd suggest you take this to wherever they hang, cause it sure isn't DU.



Seems like a lot of work for a few Repug operatives, but whatever creams your twinkies. :hi:

[Balderdash]

48. You can believe what you want to believe but as an Ex-PUMA

Nikki_Stone has it just about right. And you can call them Republicans or racists or sore losers or any other derogatory name that you like but but I know plenty that are still pissed and you're attitude doesn't help. But go ahead and blow them off, hope we don't need, I hope that you're right and we don't need them.

[Doremus]

63. Yet another good thing about Barack: his candidacy is flushing out the racists.

Good riddance to bad rubbish I say.

No need to worry about losing their "voting bloc." I have more than ample registered Dems in my household to cancel out their votes, actually, more. There are 4 of us here.

[Balderdash]

70. What about the Democratic Party

or is it enough for you to just call names, makes you feel important. Just gotta pull out the good old standby racist card. You're a shortsighted fool, I hope that Obama can win despite you.

I'm trying really hard not to be nasty but goddam some of these MFers make it damn hard.

[Nikki Stone1]

75. I think that's a short sighted view: we need every vote

Especially considering the Bradley effect.

[Doremus]

143. I think it is short-sighted to focus on a miniscule, perhaps non-existent, voting bloc

when there are so many other, larger, groups of people out there waiting to be contacted.

I'll concentrate on those while you play games with a group who couldn't muster 60 people to a free cocktail party, k?

[Nikki Stone1]

180. You are welcome to your opinion, Doremus

Meanwhile, I'll keep looking at the polls. :)

Peace.

[Faygo Kid]

73. Sadly, you are wasting your time.

Good try, but they hate with a passion that burns away all logic.

Yes, they do exist. http://www.hillaryis44.com/; http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/

[Nikki Stone1]

76. If it pulls a few more voters in, especially in key states, then it will have been worth it.

I'm stubborn about this because I can't fathom 4 more years of GOP rule.

[Cosmic Charlie]

27. PUMA = Repig It's a good thing that the Democratic Party is excreting this waste

It was holding us back.

[Zero Division]

28. "the base of PUMAs' political stand comes from cold, hard facts.."?!

Sorry, but I've never seen anything but outright lies and falsehoods coming from PUMAs. And it would seem to me to be an insult to associate the vast majority of HRC's supporters with the tiny PUMA movement. Ironically, the kinds of lies they tell about Obama or his campaign are reminiscent of the hysteria and myths that right wing created regarding the Clintons--bizarre conspiratorial claims, for instance. Many of these PUMAs actually believe con man Larry Sinclair's outrageous lies or that Obama faked his birth certificate.

[PatGund]

51. Well bear in mind....

That the people IN PUMA aren't really supporting Sen. Clinton.

They support a parody of "Blessed St. Hillary, warrior & martyr". This is the Sen. Clinton that sends them coded signals of what she REALLY meant, that they claim is being forced into all this icy "party unity" stuff.

One of the classic examples of this was on the "hillaryis44" site the night after Sen. Clinton's wonderful convention speech. They published a transcript of the speech, mince almost 300 words. Eveny single thing she said in support of Sen. Clinton OR party unity was removed from the PUMA transcript with no indictation it had been edited.

That tells me right there that they're not interested in what Sen. Clinton really has to say - or reality for that matter. It's all about the two-minute hate against Sen. Obama.

[Balderdash]

54. I was a hard working Hillary supporter

and briefly a PUMA and I can tell you for sure that you need to loosen that tin foil hat. There were no coded messages. Hillary has done everything that the party has asked of her and more. Some of her supporters are still angry and their reasons are legitimate ones.

[Raineyb]

134. What would those reasons be?

Because all I ever hear from PUMAs are accusations of cheating and not even thinly veiled racist bullshit. None of it based on a single hard fact nor anything else remotely sounding legitimate.

Regards

[PatGund]

156. It's not MY hat....

It's the posts I've read ON the various PUMA blogs. Riverdaughter, HillaryIs44, PUMAPAC's blog, TexasDarlin, they all were going on about what Sen. Clinton REALLY meant in her speech.

And it was Hillaryis44 that edited her speech to remove every reference to Sen. Obama.

I agree there was no coded messages. But how do you convince those that think the colour of her pantsuit was somehow a "shoutout" to PUMAs???

[Nikki Stone1]

181. Was there a secret message in a hat?

Did I miss something?

[cali]

29. \\do tell. what are the "cold hard facts" that PUMAs are relying on?.

What are the "evils of the organization"? And for anyone who thinks that PUMAs deserve the grovelling that the OP is doing, I suggest you go to any PUMA site like the Hillary Clinton Forum. These people don't give a flying fuck about the democratic platform. They engage in the MOST base and disgusting smearing. They make freepers look sane. They are repulsive liars.

[RoadRage]

33. Cali..i agree with you..

I think that we first need to narrow down the definition of "PUMA". In the O.P. i'm defiining them as people who truly were huge supports of Hillary (donated money, time, etc. to her campaign), and who really really believed in her platform. They are now disfranchised because they feel (right or wrong) that the election was stolen from Hillary in a similar fashion to the way it was stolen from Al Gore in 2000.

First, i'm not saying that what they think is right - but it IS thier reality. Don't try to push them off of their argument.. no Republican on earth could convince me that the 2000 election wasn't stolen. Just try to say, OK.. you may be right - but what do we do from here? Elect the guy who's 10,000 times worse from the party that is responsible for this whole mess and is more currupt that (you percieve) the DNC to be?

Finally - when discussing PUMA's - i'm not including in my definition those who troll, who used to be former GOP'ers and decided to come and back Hillary because she has a uterus and is now back to the McCain/Palin ticket because Palin has a uterus. Those aren't PUMA's.. they're "Women supporters at all costs". They need a different name. :) Idiot's will do for now....

[boston bean]

34. I'm glad things haven't changed.

Progressives who still deny sexism in the media and the democratic party who never once denounced it during the primaries. There is sexism against Palin as well.

But alleged progressives won't see it. Only deny and partake in it.

And you know that there was no real roll call at the convention. They twisted arms and threatened hillary delegates. That is proven.

I have been a democrat my entire voting life. Deny that, go ahead, it makes no difference. I want the party cleaned up from the corrupt ones that have overtaken my party. And I will not give benefit to any politician who has participated in it, and that means withholding my vote, and my promise to work to get it back.

[Nikki Stone1]

43. Denial is the way some people control their existence.

I've never had a pair of rose colored glasses but I DO stand strongly behind my principles.

[boston bean]

47. It's too bad the democratic party isn't interested in these platforms anymore. nt

[Nikki Stone1]

49. Why would you say that?

I don't think the platform is just paper.

[Balderdash]

52. I can dig it but Hillary has asked us to vote for the

nominee and I believe that she means it. I'm unhappy about how things went down too, when Hillary suspended her campaign it was unbelievably painful and I was angry at how she was treated and we were treated, not just by Republicans but by our own.

We can't leave our country up to the tender mercies of the Republican party for another minute let alone 4 more years. And if you're voting MCCain because of Sarah Palin because she's a woman, she has no skills to be President, she is not a stand in for Hillary. They DO NOT have womens best interests at heart. As a matter of fact Sarah Palin is a slap in the face for PUMAs, she is a pander plain and simple, a pander that could hurt progressive woman for many years.

I'm voting the way that Hillary has asked me to, I believe in her. We can come together after the election to make sure that Hillary gets an appointment or position that she wants and is appropriate to her. We can work to get the sexists out of the party and we can work to get the party that counts every vote and every vote counts back on track.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nikki Stone1]

60. I have not used scare tactics and name calling

And I realize that your concerns are real. (I'm taking heat for that too, if you haven't noticed.)

My opinion is that the GOP is every bit as corrupt as the DNC, but the DNC has the better platform.

Organizations by their nature end up being corrupt, because, whatever ideals they stand for, their first order of business is to protect the organization. This leads to lies, subterfuges, and injustices. (Think of the Catholic church and the child molestations. The organization is being protected at the expense of many child victims.) This is absolutely wrong but, unfortunately, the way of ALL organizations. Organizational survival almost always means betraying general principles and ethics at some point.

Organizations also have internal struggles for power. Sometimes, these struggles are rotten to the core. Again, the Catholic church. Think of John Paul II stacking the College of Cardinals before he died to insure a conservative (Ratzinger) selection as the next pope. And in my own mind, I have always believed that John Paul I (the pope who served 100 days) was murdered. I thought that as a teenager and I think it now.

Oddly, with all the crap that the organization pulls, I still show up for my nieces' and nephews' first communions, confirmations and the like. I still attend weddings in the churches. And I still go to light candles at the church and attend services at major holidays. AND, if the Catholic church is standing up for something I personally believe in, like the eradication of the death penalty or opposition to a war, I support them and get involved. I support them for the good they do and withhold support from their evil organization-saving ways. In my own mind, I separate the principles from the organization, knowing that all organizations will do evil to protect themselves and their self interest. I am cynical in the extreme about organizational behavior but still believe in and support my principles.

Maybe that is why I can still vote the Democratic platform despite the evils of the party. It is because I know that all political parties, regardless of political orientation, betray their core beliefs at some point or another to protect themselves or acquire power. I guess I just consider it a part of primate organizational behavior. I also know that there are many, many good and well meaning Democrats still in the party structure.

And, I do believe, that in the aggregate, the entire NATION will do far better with an administration that has Democratic principles than GOP principles. As rotten as the organization has seemed, they still, in their own twisted ways, have core beliefs. And these beliefs will far better suit the average person than those principles of the GOP.

Yes, I am trying to do my best to convince you.

No, I don't believe I am entitled either to your time or to your vote. All I can do is try my best and hope for the best.

Peace.


Nikki

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nikki Stone1]

65. Have you read the platform?

There is support for women in several places, and not just choice.

[boston bean]

68. that's the point nicki, it's just words on a piece of paper their actions show

it is not really important to them.

So the platform means nothing, really. they have proven that.

[Nikki Stone1]

69. For the record, I wrote the mods protesting the deleting of your first post.

I think they overreacted. I don't believe in censoring anyone.

Now, as to your statement, the piece of paper is something we can hold over their heads. And remember, the piece of paper represents the infighting and the party interests that made themselves be heard as the platform was being written. There are people behind this piece of paper.

[boston bean]

82. I will support and vote for downticket democrats.

I am not a fatalist and I want to work within the democratic party.

Rewarding people at the top of the DNC will not help one iota in accomplishing the goal of reform in the democratic party.

We will have another 4 years of them in unchecked power.

[Nikki Stone1]

83. Well, I am taking a different approach, as you can see

And I wish you would reconsider.

But I appreciate the fact that you are supporting down-ticket Dems. They need all the help they can get this year.

[DevonRex]

158. So, am I to understand that your goal is to reform the DNC and not

to promote women's issues? And that because of that you will not vote for Obama?

Edited to add:

What is the point of voting for downticket dems if we have a republican president who will veto everything that they want to do? Do you really think we'll have a veto-proof majority? I don't.

[Nikki Stone1]

182. And I am wondering how one can reform the DNC from the outside.

That doesn't make much sense to me.

[Raineyb]

135. And when have the Republicans proved that equality is important to the?

Oh, right never because if it were up to them Jim Crow would still be in effect and women would be the property of their husbands.

And which party just filibustered a bill for equal pay? It damn sure wasn't the Democrats that's for sure.

Anyone who thinks the Republicans are going to be better for equality is a damn fool. Palin is a token, she's not expected to actually do anything but sucker the women who will vote for anything with a vagina. The two parties on this count are not two sides of the same coin.

Regards

[boston bean]

139. Republicans are not the point. nt

[Nikki Stone1]

145. Mass Dem, with all due respect:

If you vote for the GOP and they win, then Republicans WILL be the point.

You know that I understand what you are talking about with corruption in the Democratic party. I get it. I know there was misogyny and fraud. And I know that on this board many Hillary supporters were banned or chased away. I get it. I also get that there are a lot of people on this board who react in a knee-jerk fashion, don't read much, and don't understand the complexities of the big picture. But you know that I do.

And I wonder what you think will happen under a McCain administration and how it can possible help the issues we care about.

[DevonRex]

157. Being anti-Republican is exactly the point, though. We know for

SURE what they stand for. It is actually written in their platform. In black and white. We would be totally foolish to think they would do anything more liberal than what they themselves have stated.

On the other hand, women's rights ARE supported in OUR platform.

So, we know that the republicans don't care about women's issues. We know that the democrats are much better than republicans on women's issues. Maybe not perfect, but better.

We know that voting 3rd party is a vote for the republicans, as in Nader in 2000. So, logic dictates that voting for Obama is the right thing to do for women's issues. It's really pretty simple.

[Nikki Stone1]

185. Forkboy's post (#172) actually quotes BOTH platforms.

And this is exactly right:

"We would be totally foolish to think they would do anything more liberal than what they themselves have stated. "

[Raineyb]

161. Then what the hell is the point?

Because it is the Republicans that the Democrats are running against and if the Dems don't win it will be the Republicans running the country for another four years. And it makes no sense to vote for the Republicans and then talk about equality when the Republicans are not remotely interested in it.

And for the record, I don't recall Obama personally doing anything to promote sexism so not voting for him to make some nebulous point about sexism doesn't make any sense either.

PUMAs keep talking about their good reasons but never come up with any. It makes one think that the "good reasons" are mere bullshit.

Regards

[DevonRex]

164. See her post #82. It seems her goal is to get rid of Dean to reform

the party rather than having dems win the WH.

[Raineyb]

166. Well then that's a stupid point

It's because of Dean and his 50 state strategy that we're in the position we're in now. The DLC would have lost us yet another election with their constant triangulation, their sucking up to corporate interests, and their dismissal of progressive candidates. As it is, we have to constantly watch for their sabotage from within.

I was under the impression that getting the country back on track was the priority. If getting back at the party is more important than fixing the country then there's no conversation to be had, write them off and move on to someone reasonable. This is the mindset some would have us try to reason with? Really? That's ridiculous!

Regards

[DevonRex]

169. I'm truly at a loss here. And isn't Dean staying no matter who

wins the GE? I have to admit I'm not very knowledgable about DNC nuts and bolts, so I may be totally wrong on that point.

Since Dean was my candidate of choice in 2004, I'm very happy he is head of the DNC. His strategy has worked wonders.

From what I have gleaned from other sites, it seems that some people think that they have to destroy the party in order to reform it. Kind of like Nader's thinking.

[Raineyb]

170. I'm not quite so sure about how it works but from what I remember when Obama clinched he asked Dean

to stay.

I'm not sure about after the election but if Obama wins I doubt that he's going to have a DLC tool take over as head of the DNC.

So these people are okay with destroying the country as well as the party with their nonsense? I really don't know what to say to someone like that. I mean how would you have a conversation when you can't even agree on what the basics are? That kind of thinking is a waste of time to try to change in my not so humble opinion.

Regards

[Nikki Stone1]

186. Well, there are a lot of folks who don't like Dean. So how about we win in November and then

we deal with Dean?

[Nikki Stone1]

142. Rainey, you'd be a lot more helpful if you'd actually download the GOP platform and

quote what it actually says. Proof is far more important than opinion.

[Raineyb]

159. I don't need to read the GOP platform to know it's bad for me

I already know that they are responsible for what's wrong with this country. I've been paying attention to the news, neither McLame nor Falin' have said anything that would make me believe that voting for them is in my best interest.

These PUMAs are supposedly long time Democrats and they're too daft to understand the difference in the platforms without me quoting it for them? I don't think so. They know the difference, they just don't give a damn and I can't have a conversation with someone who's starting point is so ridiculous as to be laughable. It's like trying to talk about the earth with someone who still insists that it's flat. It's a complete waste of time.

Regards

[Nikki Stone1]

183. I wish you would quote actual evidence, though. It makes your case stronger.

When you just give a lot of general opinions, your challenger can feel free to ignore you, or just fight back emotionally.

[Forkboy]

172. GOP 2008 Party Platform. Read it and weep everyone, especially YOU MassDemm.

http://www.gop.com/2008Platform/

You'll all note that women's issues aren't even in it. This is as close as they get...and they're full of shit.

Ensuring Equal Treatment for All

Individual rights – and the responsibilities that go with them – are the foundation of a free society. From the time of Lincoln, equality of individuals has been a cornerstone of the Republican Party. Our commitment to equal opportunity extends from landmark school-choice legislation for the students of Washington D.C. to historic appointments at the highest levels of government. We consider discrimination based on sex, race, age, religion, creed, disability, or national origin to be immoral, and we will strongly enforce anti-discrimination statutes. We ask all to join us in rejecting the forces of hatred and bigotry and in denouncing all who practice or promote racism, anti-Semitism, ethnic prejudice, or religious intolerance. As a matter of principle, Republicans oppose any attempts to create race-based governments within the United States, as well as any domestic governments not bound by the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

Precisely because we oppose discrimination, we reject preferences, quotas, and set-asides, whether in education or in corporate boardrooms. The government should not make contracts on this basis, and neither should corporations. We support efforts to help low-income individuals get a fair shot based on their potential and merit, and we affirm the common-sense approach of the Chief Justice of the United States: that the way to stop discriminating on the basis of race is to stop discriminating.

Oh wait, there's more that applies to women....

Maintaining The Sanctity and Dignity of Human Life

Faithful to the first guarantee of the Declaration of Independence, we assert the inherent dignity and sanctity of all human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution, and we endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. We oppose using public revenues to promote or perform abortion and will not fund organizations which advocate it. We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity and dignity of innocent human life.

Sounds like a winner for all those woman who don't like Obama and think Democrats don't support them.

Now, let's compare and contrast to the Democratic Party Platform.



I.
Renewing the American Dream
Introduction
Jumpstart the Economy and Provide Middle Class Americans Immediate Relief
Empowering Families for a New Era
• Affordable, Quality Health Care Coverage for All Americans
• Retirement
• Good Jobs with Good Pay
• Work and Family
• Poverty
• Opportunity for Women

=====

Commitment to the Elimination of Disparities in Health Care. We must end health care disparities among minorities, American Indians, women , and the low-income through better research and better funded community-based health centers.

=====
Reproductive Health Care

We oppose the current Administration’s consistent attempts to undermine a woman’s ability to make her own life choices and obtain reproductive health care, including birth control. We will end health insurance discrimination against contraception and provide compassionate care to rape victims. We will never put ideology above women’s health.
=====
Opportunity for Women

We, the Democratic Party, are the party that has produced more women Governors, Senators, and Members of Congress than any other. We have produced first woman Secretary of State, the first woman Speaker of the House of Representatives, and, in 2008, Hillary Rodham Clinton, the first woman in American history to win presidential primaries in our nation. We believe that our daughters should have the same opportunities as our sons; our party is proud that we have put 18 million cracks in the highest glass ceiling. We know that when America extends its promise to women, the result is increased opportunity for families, communities, and aspiring people everywhere.

When women still earn 76 cents for every dollar that a man earns, it doesn’t just hurt women; it hurts families and children. We will pass the “Lilly Ledbetter” Act, which will make it easier to combat pay discrimination; we will pass the Fair Pay Act; and we will modernize the Equal Pay Act. We will invest in women-owned small businesses and remove the capital gains tax on start-up small businesses. We will support women in math and science, combat sex-discrimination and increase American competitiveness by retaining the best workers in those fields, regardless of gender. We recognize that women still carry the majority of childrearing responsibilities so we have created a comprehensive work and family agenda. We recognize that women are the majority of adults who make the minimum wage, and are particularly hard-hit by recession and poverty. We will protect Social Security, expand programs to combat poverty and improve education so that parents and children can lift themselves out of poverty. We will work to combat violence against women.

We believe that standing up for our country means standing up against sexism and all intolerance. Demeaning portrayals of women cheapen our debates, dampen the dreams of our daughters, and deny us the contributions of too many. Responsibility lies with us all.

Link to PDF.
http://www.workinglife.org/storage/users/4/4/images/111/2008%20democratic%20platform%20080808.pdf

[Nikki Stone1]

184. Forkboy, YOU ROCK!!! :)

Thank you SO much! This is exactly the issue.

Thank you. :)

[Forkboy]

194. You're very welcome.

The contrast between the two platforms, on all the issues, is simply breathtaking. It's not like the Greens and Dems, who agree on about 80% of their platforms. The Dems and Repubs don't see eye to eye on anything...thank God. :)

[Nikki Stone1]

197. It's really amazing how different they are

And the tone and organization are really revealing.

Thanks again, Forkboy.

[DevonRex]

160. How have they proven that? Please answer. nt

[Nikki Stone1]

66. The 2008 Platform and Women:

Let's start with this general statement:

pg. 18: "Opportunity for Women
We, the Democratic Party, are the party that has produced more women Governors, Senators,
and Members of Congress than any other. We have produced the first woman Secretary of
State, the first woman Speaker of the House of Representatives, and, in 2008, Hillary Rodham
Clinton, the first woman in American history to win presidential primaries in our nation. We
believe that our daughters should have the same opportunities as our sons; our party is proud
that we have put eighteen million cracks in the highest glass ceiling. We know that when
America extends its promise to women, the result is increased opportunity for families,
communities, and aspiring people everywhere.

When women still earn 76 cents for every dollar that a man earns, it doesn’t just hurt women; it
hurts families and children. We will pass the “Lilly Ledbetter” Act, which will make it easier to
combat pay discrimination; we will pass the Fair Pay Act; and we will modernize the Equal Pay
Act. We will invest in women-owned small businesses and remove the capital gains tax on start-
up small businesses. We will support women in math and science, increasing American
competitiveness by retaining the best workers in these fields, regardless of gender. We
recognize that women still carry the majority of childrearing responsibilities, so we have created
a comprehensive work and family agenda. We recognize that women are the majority of adults
who make the minimum wage, and are particularly hard-hit by recession and poverty; we will
protect Social Security, increase the minimum wage, and expand programs to combat poverty
and improve education so that parents and children can lift themselves out of poverty. We will
work to combat violence against women.

We believe that standing up for our country means standing up against sexism and all
intolerance. Demeaning portrayals of women cheapen our debates, dampen the dreams of our
daughters, and deny us the contributions of too many. Responsibility lies with us all. "

[cali]

84. disgusting bullshit. The democrats certainly do support women

god knows they support women's issues far more than the repukes, and sorry, hillary did not get cheated out of the nomination: she lost. she accepts it, how pathetic is it that the likes of YOU can't?

And you don't belong here if you're not supporting Barack Obama. Period.

[Nikki Stone1]

89. "We have found a witch, might we burn her?"

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mphg/mphg.htm

BEDEMIR: How do you know she is a witch?
VILLAGER #2: She looks like one.
BEDEMIR: Bring her forward.
WITCH: I'm not a witch. I'm not a witch.
BEDEMIR: But you are dressed as one.
WITCH: They dressed me up like this.
CROWD: No, we didn't... no.
WITCH: And this isn't my nose, it's a false one.
BEDEMIR: Well?
VILLAGER #1: Well, we did do the nose.
BEDEMIR: The nose?
VILLAGER #1: And the hat -- but she is a witch!
CROWD: Burn her! Witch! Witch! Burn her!
BEDEMIR: Did you dress her up like this?
CROWD: No, no... no ... yes. Yes, yes, a bit, a bit.
VILLAGER #1: She has got a wart.
BEDEMIR: What makes you think she is a witch?
VILLAGER #3: Well, she turned me into a newt.
BEDEMIR: A newt?
VILLAGER #3: I got better.
VILLAGER #2: Burn her anyway!
CROWD: Burn! Burn her!
BEDEMIR: Quiet, quiet. Quiet! There are ways of telling whether
she is a witch.
CROWD: Are there? What are they?
BEDEMIR: Tell me, what do you do with witches?
VILLAGER #2: Burn!
CROWD: Burn, burn them up!
BEDEMIR: And what do you burn apart from witches?
VILLAGER #1: More witches!
VILLAGER #2: Wood!
BEDEMIR: So, why do witches burn?

VILLAGER #3: B--... 'cause they're made of wood...?
BEDEMIR: Good!
CROWD: Oh yeah, yeah...
BEDEMIR: So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood?
VILLAGER #1: Build a bridge out of her.
BEDEMIR: Aah, but can you not also build bridges out of stone?
VILLAGER #2: Oh, yeah.
BEDEMIR: Does wood sink in water?
VILLAGER #1: No, no.
VILLAGER #2: It floats! It floats!
VILLAGER #1: Throw her into the pond!
CROWD: The pond!
BEDEMIR: What also floats in water?
VILLAGER #1: Bread!
VILLAGER #2: Apples!
VILLAGER #3: Very small rocks!
VILLAGER #1: Cider!
VILLAGER #2: Great gravy!
VILLAGER #1: Cherries!
VILLAGER #2: Mud!
VILLAGER #3: Churches -- churches!
VILLAGER #2: Lead -- lead!
ARTHUR: A duck.
CROWD: Oooh.
BEDEMIR: Exactly! So, logically...,
VILLAGER #1: If... she.. weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood.
BEDEMIR: And therefore--?
VILLAGER #1: A witch!
CROWD: A witch!
BEDEMIR: We shall use my larger scales!

BEDEMIR: Right, remove the supports!


CROWD: A witch! A witch!
WITCH: It's a fair cop.
CROWD: Burn her! Burn!


Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

[DevonRex]

120. Wow. Fucking unbelievable.

[Forkboy]

132. That one has been a lost cause for a LONG time here.

The brain power on display is staggering. :crazy:

[DevonRex]

136. I am certainly staggered just reading it. I see no logic there

whatsoever. We can't fight irrational thinking.

[Nikki Stone1]

147. Insulting people doesn't help dialogue and it doesn't help in getting votes.

It just is a release.

[Forkboy]

155. We're not getting this one's vote anyways. She's made that clear for months now.

I'm not sucking up to people like who think the Dems don't give a shit about women, contrary to every bit of evidence there is except what's in their deluded head. I'm not reaching out to the unreachable, and this poster is most definitely unreachable. :shrug:

[Nikki Stone1]

187. I understand how you feel.

But I am trying to really make the case and understand hers. Unfortunately, she doesn't give much info.

[Doodler71]

177. Bravo

I wish I could forward this on to about 4 of my friends and my mother.:applause:

[Balderdash]

61. I'm really sorry that you feel that way

For me, I'll remain a Democrat too and work for change but as a Democrat I have to vote the platform. It's not about Obama, it's about the platform. I could never vote the Republican platform, there is nothing on it that I believe in. I think Obama will be fine and I think that we will have a majority in the House and the Senate and I think that Democrats will be able to finally get some stuff accomplished. Not trying to use scare tactics but I've had enough compassionate conservatism to last the rest of my life time.

[cali]

80. first, tough shit. secondly, I don't deny that there was sexism directed toward Hilary

just as there's been racism toward Obama. And grab a clue from Hillary: She didn't think a roll call was the way to go. She chose party over pique. Something I certainly can't say for the PUMA piece of shit.

[Nikki Stone1]

85. Sorry you are so unhappy Cali

I wish you the best, as always.

Nikki

:hi:

[cali]

88. Actually, Nikki, I'm not is the least unhappy. I am pissed off though

and pretty disgusted with certain types who call themselves dems.

[Nikki Stone1]

91. Maybe you just need a good laugh:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mphg/mphg.htm

ARTHUR: Halt! Hallo! Hallo!
GUARD: 'Allo! Who is zis?
ARTHUR: It is King Arthur, and these are the Knights of the Round
Table. Who's castle is this?
GUARD: This is the castle of Our Master Ruiz' de lu la Ramper (sp?)
ARTHUR: Go and tell your master that we have been charged by God
with a sacred quest. If he will give us food and shelter for the
night he can join us in our quest for the Holy Grail.
GUARD: Well, I'll ask him, but I don't think he'll be very keen...
Uh, he's already got one, you see?
ARTHUR: What?
GALAHAD: He says they've already got one!
ARTHUR: Are you sure he's got one?
GUARD: Oh, yes, it's very nice-a I told him we already got one.
OTHER GUARDS:
ARTHUR: Well, um, can we come up and have a look?
GUARD: Of course not! You are English types-a!
ARTHUR: Well, what are you then?
GUARD: I'm French! Why do think I have this outrageous accent, you
silly king!
GALAHAD: What are you doing in England?
GUARD: Mind your own business!
ARTHUR: If you will not show us the Grail, we shall take your castle
by force!
GUARD: You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your
bottoms, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called
Arthur-king, you and all your silly English kaniggets. Thppppt!
GALAHAD: What a strange person.
ARTHUR: Now look here, my good man!
GUARD: I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal
food trough whopper! I fart in your general direction! You mother
was a hamster and your father smelt of eldeberries.
GALAHAD: Is there someone else up there we could talk to?
GUARD: No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time-a!
ARTHUR: Now, this is your last chance. I've been more than reasonable.
GUARD: (Fetchez la vache.)
wha?
GUARD: (Fetchez la vache!)

ARTHUR: If you do not agree to my commands, then I shall--


Jesus Christ!
Right! Charge!
ALL: Charge!

GUARD: Ah, this one is for your mother!

ALL: Run away!

[DevonRex]

121. "They twisted arms and threatened Hillary delegates." WTF planet

do you actually live on?

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[dana_b]

192. what is so bizarre about disliking a

person who would encourage brutally killing and maming wolves, covers up her unethical firing of a state trooper, makes rape victims pay for their own rape kit, lies about taking money for a bridge that she DID want in the beginning, and has a terrible record on women's rights? I find it bizarre that ANY woman or anyone, for that matter, would "like" her.

[Forkboy]

195. LOL...speaking of bizarre.

Maybe you can explain how this fits into your "pro-choice" way of thinking. This is from the GOP Platform. By all means, feel free to come back and tell us more about how much you care about women's issues.

Maintaining The Sanctity and Dignity of Human Life

Faithful to the first guarantee of the Declaration of Independence, we assert the inherent dignity and sanctity of all human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution, and we endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. We oppose using public revenues to promote or perform abortion and will not fund organizations which advocate it. We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity and dignity of innocent human life.

Please, do tell us more about your touching concern for women, the poor, minorities, etc, and how that fits in with voting for McCain. And be sure to add how it all makes you proud to be a PUMA.

[Apollo11]

30. Sarah Palin believes that rape victims should pay for their own forensic tests

That right there is a very good reason for anyone who supports women's rights to get behind the Obama-Biden ticket.

www.usnews.com/blogs/erbe/2008/09/18/sarah-palin-and-her-outrageous-rape-kit-policy.html

[Dinger]

32. They Were Just Talking About It On CNN (nt)

[timeoutofjoint]

137. The article posted here on du says she was not aware of that policy--in 2000

[Nikki Stone1]

188. Do you have a link to that?

Thanks.

[Dinger]

199. As You Can See No Link Was Provided By The Poster

I call bullshit. I won't say any more. It's against the rules.

[Nikki Stone1]

42. Thank you for mentioning this. Has it hit the mainstream?

Thanks.

[Apollo11]

64. Jon Stewart mentioned it on The Daily Show last week

Not sure if you can call that the mainstream.

[Nikki Stone1]

67. Well, it's getting there....

:)

[Hope And Change]

36. Thank you Nikki.You are courageous for starting this thread.K & R!

:hug:

[JTFrog]

37. The cold, hard facts? You keep posting cold, hard turds. Over and over and over again.

You're more transparent than you think.

[Nikki Stone1]

45. I registered Democrats to vote this weekend. What have you been doing?

I hope you've been out pounding the pavement. We need every vote.

[JTFrog]

72. I've told you before that I've been doing that for MONTHS now.

You think going out and registering a few voters excuses you trying to come in here and sell this sympathetic bullshit "cold, hard facts" lie. That you seem to repeat over and over and over and over.

[Nikki Stone1]

74. Did you tell me? When?

And good on you if you have.

Good rhetoric involves concessions for the larger goal of getting people on your side. Think about it.

[JTFrog]

78. I won't and don't have to go along with their lies or make up my own lies to get them on my side.

YOU think about it.

[Nikki Stone1]

79. So when did you tell me you were doing neighborhood canvassing?

And politics is ALL ABOUT getting people on your side. The Presidential election is not about standing on ceremony. It is one, balls-to-the-wall day in November.

[JTFrog]

87. In your last sympathetic PUMA thread.

What difference does it make WHEN I told you that?

You keep trying to validate this insane group's lies and present them as "cold, hard fact". I guess if you subscribe to the (usually reserved for republicans) theory of anything to win, then maybe you see this as a valid tactic.

I'll stick to the truth and hard work.

[Nikki Stone1]

90. I'll go look for it. Thanks.

:)

Self righteousness might make you feel better but it doesn't win votes.

I'm a pragmatist.

[Balderdash]

93. I don't believe that you're interested in the truth. nt

[Nikki Stone1]

98. Who me?

MINSTREL (singing):

Bravely bold Sir Robin, rode forth from Camelot.
He was not afraid to die, o Brave Sir Robin.
He was not at all afraid to be killed in nasty ways.
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin!

He was not in the least bit scared to be mashed
into a pulp,
Or to have his eyes gouged out, and his elbows broken.
To have his kneecaps split, and his body burned away,
And his limbs all hacked and mangled, brave Sir Robin!

His head smashed in and his heart cut out,
And his liver removed and his bowels unplugged,
And his nostrils ripped and his bottom burned off,
And his penis--

ROBIN: That's -- that's, uh, that's enough music for now, lads.
Looks like there's dirty work afoot.
DENNIS: Anarcho-syndicalism is a way of preserving freedom.
WOMAN: Oh, Dennis, forget about freedom. Now I've dropped my mud.
ALL HEADS: Halt! Who art thou?
MINSTREL (singing): He is brave Sir Robin, brave Sir Robin, who--
ROBIN: Shut up! Um, n-n-nobody really, I'm j-just um, just passing
through.
ALL HEADS: What do you want?
MINSTREL (singing): To fight, and--
ROBIN: Shut up! Um, oo, n-nothing, nothing really -- I, uh, j-j-ust
to um, just to p-pass through, good Sir knight.
ALL HEADS: I'm afraid not!
ROBIN: Ah. W-well, actually I am a Knight of the Round Table...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mphg/mphg.htm

[Midlodemocrat]

103. Believe what you want, but you would be wrong.

[JTFrog]

107. And your reply is based on what exaclty?

[Nikki Stone1]

110. I actually found your post.

And I thanked you for your hard work.

:shrug:

[JTFrog]

112. The post you responded to was not a reply to you. n/t

[Nikki Stone1]

114. Ok then.

ARTHUR: Old crone! Is there anywhere in this town where we could buy
a shrubbery!

CRONE: Who sent you?
ARTHUR: The Knights Who Say Nee.
CRONE: Agh! No! Never! We have no shrubberies here.
ARTHUR: If you do not tell us where we can buy a shrubbery, my friend
and I will say... we will say... `nee'.
CRONE: Agh! Do your worst!
ARTHUR: Very well! If you will not assist us voluntarily,... nee!
CRONE: No! Never! No shrubberies!
ARTHUR: Nee!
BEDEMIR: Noo! Noo!
ARTHUR: No, no, no, no -- it's not that, it's 'nee'.
BEDEMIR: Noo!
ARTHUR: No, no -- 'nee'. You're not doing it properly.
BEDEMIR: Noo! Nee!
ARTHUR: That's it, that's it, you've got it.
ARTHUR and BEDEMIR: Nee! Nee!
ROGER: Are you saying 'nee' to that old woman?
ARTHUR: Um, yes.
ROGER: Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say `nee'
at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing
is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under
considerable economic stress at this period in history.
ARTHUR: Did you say `shrubberies'?
ROGER: Yes, shrubberies are my trade -- I am a shrubber. My name
is Roger the Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.
BEDEMIR: Nee!
ARTHUR: No! No, no, no! No!

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mphg/mphg.htm

[Nikki Stone1]

95. Found it!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6981285#6986425

I honor you for the work you are doing, JT Frog. It's crucial in this election. I'm doing what I can through my union and in voter reg. Best of luck to you!

[timeoutofjoint]

59. Nikki sets a good example for Democrats

[Nikki Stone1]

71. Thank you.

I appreciate it.

[cwydro]

39. I don't believe in PUMAS

I believe that is a Republican fairy story.

[Midlodemocrat]

44. I agree with you. Have yet to meet one.

[dana_b]

193. check post #176 ... obviously you won't "meet" her and

she could be pulling our legs (God, I hope so).

[Kokonoe]

46. CNN proves they are old news in politics.

Even when they try to denigrate democrats, they use regurgitated slander.
Faux is plugged into the next big story that needs our afraid (envelope)tax money.
Is CNN getting payola from fixed news to be a loser. I wonder how the employees would feel.

[codjh9]

56. Great post. I just looked up what "PUMA' stands for, and it's ... stupid.

[DevonRex]

119. I agree that it's the platform. What I don't understand is why

PUMAs need to be told this. The ones I have seen here, most of whom have left, are knowledgable about the platform. They're also knowledgable about the fact that voting Green Party or Independent is a vote for McCain since we have a winner-take-all system. And they know that McCain doesn't stand for anything they believe in. It's like an adult suddenly forgetting how to read and needing to be taught the alphabet again.

The whole thing just baffles me. Personally, I think the movement is dying. Some of the sites I have seen have very few people posting anymore. It's like 3 people talking to each other, trying to make grand speeches and pretending to have lofty discussion, most of which basically says the democratic party is run by the same TPTB as the republican party and that Obama is in league with them.

Frankly, I don't see much reason to reach out. They have made their choice, which goes against everything they said they believed in while they were here. I wish them well. But I will spend my time going after voters who have open minds and actually want to change the status quo instead of prolong it.

[Nikki Stone1]

125. I don't know how many have actually read the platforms--both of them.

I looked at the GOP platform and couldn't imagine a former Democrat supporting it once she had read it. That is why I figure they haven't read the GOP platform.

[DevonRex]

128. Ah, I see. And you're right. There are probably many who have not

read the GOP platform. I support your effort in getting them to read and understand what another 4 to 8 years of GOP rule would do to our country, especially to the women of this country.

Perhaps seeing it in black and white will change some minds. Kudos to you.

[Nikki Stone1]

129. Thank you. I really appreciate it.

I don't trust polls and am worried at how close this election seems to be. I also worry about the Bradley effect. And knowing that Ohio, land of election fraud, is a crucial state once again....

I need some coffee. :(

[DevonRex]

123. Nikki, there certainly ARE a few PUMAs in this thread. And nothing

you said changed their minds. That is just the way it is and it's just the way THEY are. We have seen right here, IN THIS THREAD, that they don't believe the democratic party cares about women. We have seen right here in this thread that they believe that somehow the Hillary delegates were somehow threatened and brow beaten at the convention. We see right here in this thread that somehow they don't believe their votes counted, even though the primary season lasted until the FINAL vote was cast in June and even though Obama asked that ALL votes count in those states that broke party rules. They believe he's something akin to Satan apparently.

Look, I admire your effort. I think you have great intentions. But at some point I think you will have to concede that they have made their choice and it's not OUR fault or the fault of the democratic party.

[Nikki Stone1]

124. Sigh

This will probably be my last post on the subject.

But I am not going to stop trying. We still have 40 days til the election.

[DevonRex]

126. I admire you for trying. I choose to take you at face value, rather

than doubt your motives. You seem absolutely sincere to me.

I really, really wish that the folks you're trying to reach would respond in a positive manner to your efforts, instead of rehashing all the old primary stuff and even bringing up "threats" to Clinton delegates at the convention. That subthread was a real downer.

[Nikki Stone1]

127. Thanks. I know how paranoid it can get around here.

But, to tell you the truth, I'm getting kind of tired. :(

[PresidentObama]

130. Upon my time posing as a mole on a PUMA board, I can tell you they're racist and thrive on hate.

They remind me of the Westboro Baptist Church, only instead of the gays they lash out at fellow Democrats.

[Nikki Stone1]

138. Posing as a mole?

Are you posing as a mole here too?

[timeoutofjoint]

146. ..............

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:

[Nikki Stone1]

150. "Hi, I'm posing as moll, but I'm really a member of your board."

LOL!!!!!!!!!

:rofl:

It really is funny. :D

[PresidentObama]

151. No, I'm a Democrat. Not a racist, like the PUMAs.

[Nikki Stone1]

178. You don't get the joke. :)

That's ok.

Peace.

[Balderdash]

153. I don't know where you were posing as a "mole"

but none of the PUMAs I know were racist or anything like Westboro Baptist Church and that's about as low as you can get and an absurd proposition.

[PresidentObama]

154. They're bitter, vile racists. I stand by my statement.

[Der Blaue Engel]

171. There are effective treatments for Borderline Personality Disorder on the market

n/t

[PresidentObama]

173. PUMAs love name calling and personal attacks too, the racist hate mongers n/t

[Der Blaue Engel]

174. Excellent use of irony n/t

[PresidentObama]

201. How so? n/t

[Nikki Stone1]

189. Weren't you banned on DU at one time. Kerry2008?

I guess you managed to get back here. But it sounds like you are not terribly successful on any board. Enjoy your second shot at DU.

[PresidentObama]

200. I was, yes. Your point?

[Name removed]

202. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raineyb]

163. Have you seen on of the poster women Ms. Christian?

There's a vile bitter racist right on the you tube for your consumption.

Regards

[Nikki Stone1]

190. Was she a Democrat?

And did she support Hillary?

[Raineyb]

196. She was at the rules commitee meeting in May

so I'd say that she claims to be a Democrat, and she was removed from the meeting yelling about tossing Senator Clinton aside for the "inadequate black man" so I'd say she was a Clinton supporter as well. The last time she was seen extending her 15 minutes of fame she was still talking about voting for McLame. This was during the Democratic convention.

Apparently supporting Clinton was so important for her that she feels the need to vote McLame.

Keeping the country from going down the toilet? Not so much.

Regards

[Nikki Stone1]

198. What a regrettable statement.

I assume she was in the heat of the moment.

My friend who self identified as PUMA was not that way. We both teach in a Title I school and we're both extremely aware of racism. My friend was mad at Howard Dean, and made most of her angry comments about him.

[Forkboy]

131. Nikki, I know you mean well, but these people are truly hopeless.

Just look at the exchange you had above with MassDemm. Anyone who thinks the Democrats don't care about woman is simply so stupid as to be beyond belief.

You clearly want us to win, and for that I'm honestly grateful. But these threads are a colossal waste of your time. You will *not* reach these people, and the energy you devote to this could be far more effective spent on any other pursuit to help us. You said above you would be glad if you reached even a couple of people with this thread, but how many will you reach if you were phonebanking or whatever? Ten times that amount, in a hour or two?

And please understand, I'm not trying to sound like you're not doing these things at all, or that your just wasting time on DU (far be it from me to tell people how to spend their time). That's not how mean this at all. Just saying that this particular subject is a dead end for all involved, and just keeps stirring up those still strong divisions the primaries caused, and that there are far more productive avenues to help us win.

[Nikki Stone1]

140. I've done a lot of phonebanking in my time and do voter reg through the union

This thread is important too.

Just because one person reacted negatively doesn't mean there weren't others who read the post, downloaded the platform PDFs and really began to think. It's all about planting seeds, and waiting for seeds to grow takes patience.

[boston bean]

141. you thought I was negative, i thought we were having a conversation. nt

[Nikki Stone1]

148. You know what? You're right.

I'm sorry for prejudging.

[Forkboy]

144. I didn't mean to imply that you didn't do those things.

I tried to explain that in my last paragraph. Not well enough, apparently. I apologize that it came across that way.

I doubt there is any fertile ground here, but carry on with those seeds. ;)

[Nikki Stone1]

149. Oh, I know. Please don't take offense.

I just wanted you to know that I'm busy every election. :)

[Forkboy]

152. None taken on my part.

Glad we're cool. :pals:

[Nikki Stone1]

191. Very cool.

I really like how you posted the info from the platforms. :)

[Nikki Stone1]

203. THANK YOU to the mods, for allowing this thread to stay up and, hopefully, do some good.

I appreciate your patience and tolerance.

Nikki

[JTFrog]

205. Asleep at the wheel.

They would never let other threads stand that are in sympathy with other Republican disruption groups.

This is getting really old and it should be stopped.

What's next? Showing empathy and reaching out to the rush limpballers and operation chaos?

Each and every one of these threads have been little more than flamefests.

[Name removed]

204. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.