The debate really illustrates why Dean is the frontrunner.

[KissMyAsscroft]

He is the only one that understands what we are dealing with in this country right now. He is the only candidate that wants to stand up to the right wing psychos.

Everyone else had some wishy washy, short term fix for the problems.

He really put the tax issue in perspective, pointing out that what good is your measly cut when all of your other costs are through the roof! Kerry responded by saying that Dean will make them pay double, which was just flat out wrong. They won't pay double because they will have other expenses eased. It will more than make up for the piddly tax cut they wont get.

What Kerry was advocating was an extension of Bush's tax cut! That's insane! He was trying to appeal to conservatives with that short term fix approach, and it was ridiculous. Typical Kerry.

Dean is the only candidate that seems to be grasping what the hell we are dealing with and trying to confront it head on. Dean is right! These right wingers like DeLay cannot be appeased! There is no working with these extremists! They have to be stood up to and destroyed, not appeased with short term fixes like Kerry proposed.

[Kahuna]

1. Crossfire just showed new Gallup poll jan 2-5..

Dean 24%. Clark 20% WES WILL WIN!!!! :bounce:

[KissMyAsscroft]

3. Ummm...ok.

That actually puts him behind Dean in case you weren't paying attention, but a Dean/Clark ticket could be good.

Dean is the man.

[maddezmom]

9. I'll take the 20%

Go Wes! :)

[DancingBear]

11. That's easy money

:) :) :)

[dorktv]

53. Speaking of money, how come Clark only got 3.7 was it? of

matching funds?

[liberalnurse]

27. So, what does that have to do with this thread?

Start your own Clark is my Spirt Guide or something thread....I tend to avoid the Clark is a saint crap.....bashers are rude.

[Hawkeye-X]

38. And... there's one thing you forgot..

This is a NATIONAL POLL -- which is truly irrelevant.

Hawkeye-X

[Clark Campaigner]

61. Yes, we're climbing steadily

in the polls!

[Printer70]

63. Let's sacrifice principles for polls

I suppose we could abandon our core principles, our objections to this unjust war, our sense that unless we increase federal revenues we won't have the funding for improved healthcare -- all in pursuit of the best poll result. Dean has not done that. And while the poll Gods have smiled favorably on Dean and he continues to hold the lead, I would much rather go on principle with Dean than someone who's flip-flopped on the war and makes false tax cut promises like Clark.

[blm]

2. Wrong. Dean's way is NOT the progressive taxation way.

Raising or lowering taxes evenly across the board is a GOP staple that always burdens the middle class.

[KissMyAsscroft]

5. Ummm, is that what I said?

That's not what I said.

Please re-read the post.

[blm]

42. You said Kerry's was an extension of Bush's taxcut.

By repealing ONLY the taxcuts at the top and maintaining the working class taxcut Kerry is promoting PROGRESSIVE taxation - something Bush and his tax plans would NEVER do.

[demsrule.com]

4. Dean is misleading you on tax cuts

If you think the rising costs of tuition, property taxes etc. are going to be eased as a result of taking back all of the tax cuts you are mistaken. So under Dean you will not only NOT get a tax cut but these costs will still continue to climb. I prefer Clark's tax strategy and he has actually included specifics.

[KissMyAsscroft]

8. So if you are paying hundreds less in tuition in healthcare,,,

that won't help?

Please explain that for everyone.

My guess is he will raise taxes on the rich, he's just not saying it.

[demsrule.com]

21. Sounds good on paper but

I don't know how Dean is going to lower tuition, healthcare costs etc without taking a hit in quality. Education and health care are two of the most important issues and lowering the costs without cheapening the product is going to be difficult to do. Look at Daddy Bush. He had decent approval ratings and then raised taxes and got buried at the polls. The repubs will spin this so many ways that Dean will get buried just as Bush did.

[BobbyJay]

30. It doesn't even sound good on paper

It'a all hyothetical hyperbole. My state tax and tuition went up under CLINTON, not Bush.

Now Dean wants to raise my mom's taxes?

Dean landslide 2004!!!!!!

[liberalnurse]

31. Clark is a virgin when it comes to being a democrat

and dealing with politics. Nah...he don't know any more than Arnold....

[BobbyJay]

35. Yes, apparently Dean has the most experience on being the next Mondale

More taxes for all!!!

[Kahuna]

39. LOL!

:evilgrin:

[liberalnurse]

40. Oh, you can do better than that.......

Thats years ago...another time,.....get current.....if you desire to promote Clark as a potential contender.

[Dookus]

48. well...

show me Arnold's masters in politics and economics from Oxford. Show me Arnold's history of working as a White House Fellow in the OMB. Show me Arnold's history of working with 19 NATO countries. Show me Arnold's history of fighting and defeating a genocidal dictator.

What's that thing the kids are saying today? Oh yeah. Poop.

[Printer70]

64. It's a matter of convenience

Clark was a Republican until recently. He supported Reagan and Nixon. He said recently that if Karl Rove took his phone calls, he'd "be a Republican right now". This is awfully reminiscent of Michael Bloomberg for NYC mayor, in reverse.

[xultar]

6. Everyone else had some wishy washy...

You must have been a Dean supporter prior to the debate. It is great that Dean's performance has solidified your support. However, I don't think that Gep, Kerry, Braun or Kucinich had anything close to wishy washy.

Kucinich was right on target with Gay marriages as was Braun.
Kucinich has a concrete plan for the US out UN in Iraq.
Kerry was clear on his message even when Gep misrepresented it.
Gep was clear as well.

It is o.k. to root for your own guy or gal. But at least be objective enough to listen to what they have to say. It would have been just as easy not to have heard the debate and called everyone elses stances wishy washy.

I'm a Clark supporter. No big news and Big woop, I know. But I am open minded enough to see the good in all of the candidates stances and issues. I wouldn't call Howard Dean wishy washy even though he's changed his stances on some things.

on Edit....
And Dean' is the only one to take on the RW psychos...Dude, you must have missed it when Clark responded to a comment about the RW psychos in the 2004 GE. Clark said he'd beat the SHIT out of them (RW Psychos). That to me sounds like he's gonna take on the RW psychos.

So Dean isn't the only one ready to take on the RW psychos.

[KissMyAsscroft]

10. My main gripes were these...

The lack of realization of the way the right wingers in this country work. (Lieberman, Kerry favor appeasement...)

The tax cut issue. (Kerry wants to extend a failed policy...)

[H2O Man]

49. Lieberman favors SUBMISSION!!!

He is the last choice here! Look, it's really about Dean and/or Clark going against the beast. The comment about keeping an open mind is on target. Stop bad-mouthing the progressive candidates - they broaden the platform. The Dean (or Clark) forces alone can NOT beat bush in November. We need to include all patriotic democrats. The problem I sense is that a few of the Dean people feel that it is a form of betrayal to take interest in Clark, or to question Dean. Look, I am becoming MORE impressed with Dean in the last couple weeks, but still feel that Clark is a surer bet to beat bush. The majority of the undecided voters in this country are going to go on "national insecurity," and Dean is inexperienced here.

[BobbyJay]

7. Dean wants to raise taxes on everyone, and it will hurt him.

Dean will run on raising taxes for everyone, and he will lose.

[madfloridian]

12. You are using GOP spin, my friend. Stopping cuts is NOT raising.

Stop using that sping.

[BobbyJay]

13. YES IT IS RASING TAXES

Get over yourself.

My taxes are at a certain rate right now, Dean wants to INCREASE that rate. It is RAISING taxes.


Keep telling yourself that Dean is a winner, though.

[revcarol]

16. Yes it is, for one group.

The lowest who pay taxes were reduced from 15% to 10%. And this took place immediately, not some five years down the road.

Kerry zonked him on this one. This really is raising taxes on the working poor.

[liberalnurse]

36. This is a Dean thread....

not a Clark thread. I really feel annoyed when the Dean threads are disrupted.....Lets keep our focus on the leader....Dean.

[Kahuna]

41. Actually, Dean said he would "reverse ALL the bush tax cuts"..

That means that cuts already given will be rescinded. That is a tax increase.

[KissMyAsscroft]

15. He doesn't want to raise taxes on everyone...

He wants to ease the burden of what people are paying.

Why are people so narrow minded as to what defines a "tax?"

If you get a yearly tax break on your car, but repair shops charge ten thousand dollars for a broken headlight, is that really a cheaper car? (not a perfect analogy, I know)

The fact is, Americans have living expenses. "Tax Cuts" are a scam the Republicans have been pulling on Americans and it is time it is exposed and outed as the fraud that it is. It is a way to put cold, hard cash in someone's hand while you steal their furniture out of the back door.

It reminds me of those infomercials they play at midnight with cash flying all over the screen and in small print (24.9% interest rate)

The tax cuts didn't help anyone more than free healthcare, and decresed tuition would...not to mention a stronger economy and an actual JOB!

[BobbyJay]

20. Dean wants to raise taxes on the middle class

period.

[Kahuna]

43. No no. He has said all along he will REVERSE, the bush

tax cuts. Is he flip floping?

[FubarFly]

45. Amen.

I was opposed to the tax cuts when they were offered. I was extremely unhappy with the Democratic appeasements, and I will be elated to see them rescinded. It's time we stopped making apologies for the massive scam the Republicans have pulled on working class Americans.

[BJ]

22. If you weren't paying attention let me paraphrase...

...In these latest debates both Kerry and Lieberman say that they will keep or extend so-called "middle-class" tax cuts and then, in the same breath, explain that's so the middle-class can pay higher health insurance premiums, college tutition etc.

Get it? Just like the Repugs they're saying, "We'll give you downtrodden middle-class folks (code for blue- and low-level white-collar suburbanites)more money in your pockets so you can spend it how you want!" But unlike the lying Repugs at least Kerry and Lieberman tell these same downtrodden middle-class folks that higher and higher insurance premiums and college tutitions are going to eat all that money up.

That's not a solution!

[BobbyJay]

25. NEWSFLASH: Republicans control all branches of government

[Clark Campaigner]

62. Clark has unveiled an amazing tax plan for America

[Printer70]

65. Dean supports Clinton's Tax Plan

Under Clinton's tax plan, 22 million jobs were created- the most in any administration's history. Under Bush's plan, we have lost 2 million jobs. Clark is offering a watered down version of Bush's plan while Dean is proposing, effectively, Clinton's plan. I am leaning towards the latter as a better way to fix the economy. Balancing budgets contributes to economic growth.

[BeyondGeography]

14. It illustrates why he is losing support

He's sticking to his awful tax plan and Kerry hammered him good on it.

[KissMyAsscroft]

18. Kerry sounded like Bush.

He basically said Bush's tax cuts were great and we should extend them...

But hey, I guess that's why Dean is the frontrunner not Kerry.

[BobbyJay]

32. So, Dean wants to reverse Gore's middle class tax cuts?

The ones he championed in 2000?

[BJ]

23. Where was General Clark today?

And Sunday for that matter?

[BeyondGeography]

26. Climbing in the polls and

getting far more exposure on Meet the Press and Hardball than he would have in Iowa.

Oh, and there was this little tax plan announcement yesterday.

[BobbyJay]

28. Announcing a winning tax policy

and getting bumps in the polls. You know, the usual stuff.

[KissMyAsscroft]

24. Losing support?

He is leading in the polls! He has raised the most money!

[creativelcro]

29. Clark is toast and he knows it

That's why he's not taking part in these debates...

[BobbyJay]

33. lol

[jmaier]

34. LOL

Right, that's what the current evidence shows: good fundraising, solid poll numbers, enthusiastic supporters. Clearly, Clark is history.

[creativelcro]

44. Hope his military pride is not shaken too badly.

but playing chicken at the debates seems to show it has...

[sandnsea]

17. They're Democratic tax cuts

Democrats and moderates like Olympia Snowe fought for those particular tax cuts. They aren't Bush tax cuts at all. They were passed before 9/11 or any other emergency. There's no reason to take those tax cuts back when people are already suffering.

It's like giving an employee a cut in their health insurance premium. Then, a couple of years later when your business is bad, you need the tax break so you take the health insurance premium back and promise business will pick up in a couple of years and you'll give them a raise to offset it. Well what about those couple of years in the meantime. You're losing more money. Nobody would consider that good for them.

[KissMyAsscroft]

19. The one trillion the government will get back...

Is a WEE bit more than the office raise.

Sorry to break that to ya.

[Cheswick2.0]

37. I think we are all in the middle of a "no guts no glory" moment

some people have guts, others do not. No Guts, NO Glory!

[mistertrickster]

46. Reading these posts are as entertaining as listening to my kids

bicker about who gets to sit in front.

Clark, Kerry, Braun, Kuchinich are all good in many ways. Leiberman should just drop out IMHO.

But Dean has something that the others don't--an ORGANIZATION.

Who's writing letters to voters in New Hamp and Iowa? Who's pounding the pavements in freezing cold January in Iowa? Who can generate tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of dollars in 48 hours with an internet appeal? Who has "meet ups?" Who has de-centralized his campaign and let the people run it from the bottom up?

Dean is NOT the issue in this campaign--it's the grassroots movement that he inspired that will carry him to the nomination and to victory.

You're still looking at the old model--some tall, photogenic guy (Kennedy, Clinton) gets on TV and charms the media. He gets big money special interests to back him. The party puppet masters get behind him. Voters look to him as the 'savior' of the party. Then when he's caught getting a bj by some bimbo because like most politicians he's pretty much an ego-maniac, we're all "shocked!"

That's not the way its going to go this time. This time, the people win the election, not the candidate.

[Zinnola]

56. Well said!

I think that is what most non Dean supporters do not get. Dean's campaign is really grassroots. I am even thinking of helping pound the pavement for Dean in his Southwest Tour end of January.

[Kahuna]

59. Shows what you know. Clark's team is doing the same things..

If you don't believe me, mosey over to the Clark blog and check it out for yourself. Don't believe the hype!

[caledesi]

47. Good analysis KMA. Agree totally,. Dean is very realistic.

[adamrsilva]

50. Dean is the front-runner for one reason

He gets it.

He gets what the Democratic base is feeling right now, and that's not just hatred for George Bush and his cronies, but hatred for their own Democratic leaders and the media for letting him get away with what he wants.

THAT is why he is the front-runner.

[HFishbine]

51. Dean supporter who disagrees

I get your point, but by your measure, I'd have to say Dennis Kucinich also has some pretty clear plans and a good handle on what the nation's problems are.

[isbister]

52. This president is about to allow North Korea to become a nuclear power

Original Question:

Pakistani officials are accused of trading nuclear weapons technology to other countries, including Iran, North Korea and, as we heard today, possibly to Libya as well. Pakistan is also an essential American ally in the war on terrorism, and you look at the map, it's crucial to any continuing operations in Afghanistan. How do you balance those two issues?


Kerry and Braun answer and then...

CONAN: Governor Dean, you wanted to get in on this.

DEAN: I just wanted to bring up one other point about this. As we sit here, the president of the United States is refusing to have bilateral negotiations with the North Koreans, who almost certainly have a bomb already.

DEAN: This president is about to allow North Korea to become a nuclear power.

The danger in that is not the North Koreans will immediately attack us; the real danger is that they will do what Pakistan is accused of: They'll sell that weaponry to terrorist or to other countries like Libya or Pakistan for hard currency.

That is a major national security threat, and this president is not defending this country the way he ought to be by refusing to engaging in those kinds of deliberations. Because the hard-liners in this administration believe somehow North Korea is going to fall. Well, if they don't fall of their own accord and they end it with nuclear weapons, that's a pretty serious security risk for the United States of America.

1) It has been widely reported that the N. Koreans have nuclear weapons for many months now and, in fact, the answer's in the question yet Dean states : "This president is about to allow North Korea to become a nuclear power."

2) The danger of the N. Koreans is not an attack but that they will do what Pakistan has done and sell nukes to Pakistan and Libya??? Sounds like another bushism to me. Pakistan has sells nuclear technology but we are afraid of them buying it from N. Korea??? or Libya, who just opened up to inspectors???

Didn't Pakistan trade its nuke technology to N. Korea in exchange for its missle technology? Isn't that how the N. Koreans learned what they needed?

[Tweed]

54. It appears as you don't follow Clark...

Have you looked into Wesley Clark at all? He called out Karl Rove and dared him to label him an old-time democrat when it came to his progressive tax plan. http://www.clark04.com/issues/familiesfirst/ Go there to check out his wonderful tax plan. Clark is not wishy washy and his tax policy is long term.

[Rose Siding]

58. Clark didn't even show up

You had no horse in today's debate race.

[isbister]

55. The first question is for Governor Dean

Forty years ago, in his State of the Union address, President Lyndon Johnson declared an unconditional war on poverty. Both Democrats and Republicans have controlled the White House and Congress since then. Why are so many Americans still living in poverty?

DEAN: I think a lot of it has to do with the extraordinary corporate alliances and rapaciousness that this president has encouraged since he's been president.

The Medicare prescription benefits bill is a perfect example: $400 billion charged to our grandchildren. Who are the beneficiaries? Not seniors, no. A hundred billion dollars goes to the pharmaceutical industry, $85 billion goes to HMOs and insurance companies, and the seniors get left holding the bag.

I was in North Dakota yesterday: Farmers up there are being forced off their land by big corporations who are buying up all the hog lot operations and beef operations.

This is a country which is a great country, and business has been great for America, but business has responsibility too, and this president believes that he is the president for the corporation, by the corporation and of the corporation.

I think we need a president who's going to introduce programs like Lyndon Johnson did -- Medicare, Head Start -- that affect ordinary people and help them get ahead in life, instead of catering to corporations whose chief executives are giving him $2,000 a whack to improve his campaign coffers.

This President has been the corporation's best friend and that's why so many Americans still living in poverty after 40 years?????? Huh... so for the thirty seven years before bush gained control everything was fine?

[isbister]

57. KUCINICH: And I'm the only one in this campaign who is calling for...

... the U.N. to come in and the U.S. get out, and that would happen within 90 days of the approval of my plan.

DEAN: You don't have a timetable in something like this. You leave when you can.

I'm with Dennis -- I don't believe we can pull out in 90 days. I believe we should pull out as soon as we can, but I can't give you -- it's not responsible to give you a deadline because there's work to be done, and until the work is done we can't leave.

Huh? Dennis said: "and that would happen within 90 days of the approval of my plan."

[mistertrickster]

66. You don't get political debates, do you? If you want a serious, in-depth

complex answer to this essentially un-answerable question, take a class at the Kennedy School for Public Policy.

If you want to unseat a (so-called) popular pResident, you have to show how your position is 1. different and 2. BETTER than what he is doing.

Duh . . .

[ThirdWheelLegend]

60. " Everyone else had some wishy washy, short term fix ..."

"Everyone else had some wishy washy, short term fix for the problems."

That's where you lost me.

You obviously have not been to

http://www.kucinich.us/

or read this page:

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/10key.php

or read through this:

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/


TWL