My friend asks:

[madmax]

"P.S. What do you think about this mess with Merrill Lynch, Lehman Bros., AIG etc? What do we do now? You guys heading out of the country?"

She's a Repug, served in the Navy, Dad was Navy. She has been baiting me for a few months now. A few weeks ago I was ambushed by her and a friend about Obama. First negative out of her friends mouth is 'I don't like his religion for one - he's a muslim". I believe the real reason is she's a closet racist so I laid that muslim bullshit to rest. Yesterday I get an email from my friend with the above P.S. I did mention to her that my husband and I are seriously thinking about moving.

My reply to her:

"What do we do now? Vote Obama! FOR CHANGE! Let's face it.. what do you have to lose????? What have 8 years of *bush done for YOU. Are you better off today than you were 8 years ago? Is our country better off? Shit, girl it's not rocket science! You're not marrying him for christ's sake it's only a 4 year gig renewable if he does some good. You gave *bush 8 YEARS! I don't expect Obama to change everything overnight but, maybe he can stop the bleeding. What do you think?"

Over the past few months I've sent her articles and links. When we've gotten together my husband lays it all out nice and calm. I just want to rip her head off because her stupidity and misplaced 'loyalty' just aggravates the shit out of me. She is by no means well off, he husband is sick, she's the only bread winner for the past 6 years and neither her son nor her husband have health insurance! This is a classic case of voting against your best interests.

What else can I say or do to get this girl to wise up? :shrug:

[Narkos]

1. You know, I've tried to convince

family members that a vote for McCain would be a disaster, but they seriously just tune out. For them, and for most people, it's an emotional decision that just cannot be reckoned with. My favorite quote along these lines is "You cannot reason someone out of something he was never reasoned into". Good luck though!

[madmax]

2. I hear that but,

I don't think I can continue to be as friendly with her as we used to be. It irks me that so many suffer because nit wits like her are afraid to change. Maybe they can't admit they're wrong or some other psychosis :mad:

[Narkos]

17. This may explain some of their psychology

http://edge.org/3rd_culture/haidt08/haidt08_index.html

[abumbyanyothername]

3. General Game Plan Advice

1) Assume that Barack has already won the election and all that is left is the formality of counting the votes.

2) Understand that your friends and family members either sincerely believe that the candidate of their choice is good for America, or they are disillusioned but have become "brand identified" with their political party. Just as you feel that an attack on BHO feels to you like an attack on you, so they feel that an attack on their candidate feels like an attack on them. They have allowed their ego to attach to their candidate just as you have allowed your ego to attach to yours.

3) Recall that the cornerstone of the BHO campaign was no red state, blue state, no red voter, blue voter, but one UNITED, unified, working together for the common good, United States of America. Your friends and family members who support the opposing candidate are part of that unified vision.

4) Do not be overly concerned about attacks on your candidate. Remember that he has already won. Speak calmly and respond rationally to disinformation. Or not. It will not be the end of the world, or the relationship, if your friend or family member is deluded. You yourself are no doubt deluded on some topic or another. Hope and pray that your friend or family member reach a higher level of awareness but realize that you are not singularly responsible for raising them to that level. Do your part (which is probably smaller than you think) nothing more, nothing less, nothing else.

5) Try to radiate a spirit and aura of inclusiveness, welcoming and accommodation in all these discussions. Emphasize that we are a large and powerful country and that many different points of view exist. Emphasize that we wish to hear, understand and incorporate all the perspectives into a country that stands united to face the challenges ahead.

6) Above all, develop within yourself a sense of absolute confidence that what is right will prevail in the end. Always. Act according to your highest sense, confident in the knowledge that you are either right or willing to be proved wrong whereupon you will change your point of view.

7) Relax and have fun while doing all of this.

No one can convert 100% or even 25% of people who have become fixed and invested in supporting the other side, but I believe that following these guidelines (at a personal one to one level) will yield a much higher success rate than would the following of a more natural "here's why your guy is wrong and mine is right" approach.

[Apollo11]

11. "what is right will prevail in the end"

You are asking us to believe this after 8 years of Bush-Cheney? :eyes:

[abumbyanyothername]

16. If you believe it, you will see it. nt

[ieoeja]

4. History

The United States has experienced 7 or 8 economic depressions (historians do not entirely agree on one of them), or one every 12 to 15 years up through the Great Depression.

In the 70+ years since the advent of FDR's New Deal, we have experienced none.

Ronald Reagan began repealing the New Deal. This immediately led to the largest loss of family farms in US history as well as the Savings & Loan debacle. The process of restoring the Old Deal has continued ever since then. Even Clinton thought this was a good idea, though he managed to temper this by enforcing some of the regulations Reagan/Bush let slide. Bush II went right back to non enforcing the law, and we now see a Banking debacle to match Reagan's S&L debacle.

McCain is using the exact same economic advisors as Reagan/Bush/Bush. He has promised to continue the exact same mistakes. He has voted to make these same mistakes.

The United States built up quite a strong economy during those decades of New Deal prosperity. What we are seeing now is the looting up that economy.

[madmax]

5. You sound like my better half

He's good at playing that game with people. He's actually won over a few. If he converts his brother he'll be worthy of a medal. ;)

I'll try but, it's not in my nature - I'm an evil bitch! :evilgrin:

[madmax]

6. I've gone into to this with her

sent her articles about PNAC and the neocon's. I sent more articles yesterday - she hasn't answered yet. Maybe she's reading them :eyes:

[ieoeja]

7. What will set me off are the bald-faced liars.

The ones who will repeat word-for-word what Limbaugh, O'Reilly and Hannity said that day, then deny listening to them. If you present evidence that they are lying, something they can't dismiss like the Congressional Record, they switch immediately to the next lie and refuse to acknowledge the previous discussion ever existed.

And the childish name-calling. They apparently believe that making you angry will cause everyone else to realize that they are the cool rational ones. They never see the audience (because the people I am thinking of know they won't change my mind, they're hoping to sway any bystanders) rolling their eyes and shaking their heads at their juvenile name-calling.

"Governor Blowthebitch", "Mayor Little Dickie Daley", "Senator Yomomma". Yes, that will eventually make me angry. And it makes everyone else think the insulter is an asshole.

Actually, the particular individual I am thinking of finally broke my cool enough that I told him exactly what everybody else in the bar thought of him and his enabling wife. Next time I stepped in the bar, I was greeted by a standing ovation. Couldn't pay for a beer for two weeks after that til I finally told them it was getting embarrassing.

So getting angry can work too. It can even make you a hero!

[madmax]

8. I think you nailed it!

Her sister is the Queen Bee of Faux News. And I think her sister's influence gets the better of her because for a while there she was listening and thinking about voting for Obama. She even read Obama's book! That's why I hate to give up but, she's wearing me down and that's not easy ;)

[ieoeja]

14. You need to be arguing with her sister (with your friend listening).

It is really difficult not to get one's back up when being argued with. I know that I have had times when I later realized the other guy had a really good point, but I was too busy defending "myself" to understand it at the time.

If she was off to the side watching you and her sister argue, she might more readily see the truth. And if she's okay with you and her sister going at it bare-knuckled, then you can really let it loose.

That last is a big "if" however. I lost a friend to the dark side when I got into a frustrating email exchange with a real loon. The person couldn't follow simple logic. Turned out to be my friend's sister, and my insults for her sister just made her embrace stupidity more completely.

{sigh}

[madmax]

18. Her sister lives in California

They talk a lot on the phone. I get her to see the light and her moran sister starts with the Faux talking points. I'm so tired of her but, since she brought it up again I thought I'd give it one last shot. I'm starting to wonder if she's just trying to piss me off.

I'm better off using my time to knock on doors.

[Bluerthanblue]

10. good points-

under Reagan there were the 'whole herd buyouts' and foreclosures on small farms that really destroyed a lot of families. I hadn't recognized how clearly that fit into the 'plan' before.

We need a 'new deal'- this hand has gotten pretty rotten.

[Doremus]

9. We've been calm and polite for too long. It's time to throw etiquette to the wind

I decided a couple of weeks ago I'm done pussyfooting around. After 8 years of quiet diplomacy and trying to reach people with logic and reason, I'm done.

A whackjob came in my shop the other day and joined in a conversation I was having with someone else. Regurgitating every Faux talking point, Sarah Palin this, Sarah Palin that. I tried a couple of times to give him the facts and they went sailing over his head. I raised my voice and told him to get the hell out. His shocked look was priceless. Maybe he'll start thinking now? I wouldn't bet on it but at least *I* feel better for having spoken out.

If you've tried everything else up 'til now, I think the only thing left is to speak to them like they understand. Your response to her was quite appropriate, imo.

[ismnotwasm]

12. Ask her how veterans are doing

Under Republicans. How much support they're getting. Who is introducing legislation for vets, and who is voting it what in, and what out. When my daughter was in the army, she leaned toward conservative, even told me once "I'm more of the republican you know" Now out in the real world for a couple of years she's completely changed. Turns out what she meant by "republican" was "personal responsibility" which Democrats have a superior handle on. (Repuke Values voters THINK they do)

[madmax]

13. Oh, the Vets!

Haven't run that past her yet. Figured if having an uninsured son wouldn't didn't do it for her... but, maybe the Vet's will. That will be my last try with her.

You should have heard her freak out over Edward's 600. hair cut and THEN he cheated on his sick wife!! Yeah, well thanks for that one John :(

[rufus dog]

15. Oh you are so ignorant

It is All CLINTON's FAULT!

Just watch Fox or Dobbs!

Point being, they are bad in the head, laugh at her.

[madmax]

19. Yep - told her keep listening to Faux News

it's always that damn Clenis! :eyes:

[samuraiguppy]

20. if someone is a hardcore

racist--you are not going to be able to get them to wise up. sorry