Can anyone help me answer my mother's question about Obama and abortion?

[pnwmom]

A friend of hers sent this to her. I know there's a good response to this, but I don't know where to look.

" How sad that in this day and age the unborn baby is still considered disposal! The mother who has a choice to make a decision to raise or give for adoption is considered much more important. Why should she be inconvenienced? I had hoped we had advanced from the days of the live free 60s, but Obamah actually voted to allow babies who were aborted but alive to be placed to die in a separate room. I had a nurse friend who quit her hospital because of this practice."

[SeattleGirl]

1. It's a bullshit lie.

Obama never said that aborted, but still living, babies should just be put into a room to die. He thinks they should be tended to and given medical attention. Period.

Sometimes, you just have to call a lie a lie.

[dflprincess]

7. I think this is something he voted "present" on in the Illinois Legislature

because something really horrible got thrown into the bill at the last minute.

My opinion is that this whole issue is a red herring. If an abortion is being done at a point where the fetus might be viable you can bet it's being done for medical reasons. I doubt there are very few (if any) doctors in the U.S. who perform elective abortions at that point in a pregnancy.

My friend's daughter had a medically necessary abortion and was told it had to be done before she got to 20 weeks because after that there was no way she'd be able to get it done in Minnesota unless her health deteriorated even more than it already had - and she was already in a very weakened state at 19 weeks.

[SeattleGirl]

12. I believe you are correct, and in fact, I think it was Planned Parenthood

that asked him to vote that way.

[joshcryer]

39. The NCAP has no such requirement.

I got in a lot of heat here by pointing out the motivations of certain abortion providers over the viablity of fetuses. But generally I'd agree that most doctors won't perform such procedures. Especially since most states ban abortion beyond viablity (viablity as determined by the JAMA; but generally 22 weeks or longer). Roe v. Wade even has viablity within its very own wording.

Abortion providers that will do it on a viable healthy fetus exist, though. And the National Coalition of Abortion Providers has not changed their position as far as I know. Finding this out was a very long process for me because people denied it again and again here.

[Gwinky]

14. During the RNCConvention, UR VERY wise to verify wild stories about opponents

Here is a fairly unbiased reporting on what is being said.
Obama did not vote for any "Born Alive" measures in Illinois.
I am Pro-Choice, (actually, pro-prevention!!!) but this story is so over the top, its beyond belief. Who could believe such a thing?

http://www.nysun.com/national/obama-facing-attacks-from-all-sides-over-abortion/84059/

[pnwmom]

17. Hi Gwinky. My mom's friend, who is the one who believed this, is 80 years

old and Catholic. And she votes.

There are a lot of older voters who would believe this, and my mother happens to know a number of them. Thanks for helping me find some "ammunition" for my mom.

And welcome to DU!

[Gwinky]

23. My mom is 81 - Check out the link below - even better!

My mom is 81 and needs this stuff too! Her friends are not tuned-in to all the nonsense that is being tossed out there.

And thanks for the welcome!

[CC]

26. Well you might want to inform your mom's friend

that is Catholic that even Catholic hospitals will perform a late term abortion if the mother's life is at stake, even if it isn't an immediate danger. They just call it induced preterm labor. Results are the same though.

[pnwmom]

30. I learn something new here practically every day. Thanks! n/t

[orwell]

37. Not if...

...sassy Sarah and the newly built Repug platform get their way...

[brer cat]

34. I have never known anyone who was

pro-choice who was not also pro-prevention. We have allowed the so-called pro-life republicans to define this issue. That needs to end!

[orwell]

2. Here you go...

http://www.matthew25.org/paf/index.htm

[pnwmom]

8. That's a great site. Just what I needed. Thanks! n/t

[Gwinky]

18. http://www.matthew25.org - is an AWESOME SITE thanks!!!

Fantastic. And the "Falsehoods & Facts" portion is fabulous! Thanks!

[sandnsea]

3. I can't believe you posted that shit here n/t

[pnwmom]

6. It's been repeated several times tonight on TV. We need to have an answer

for it, and I didn't.

[sandnsea]

10. Forgot how to use google?

I don't know what your problem is, but you need to knock it off.

[pnwmom]

15. I don't know what your problem is, but you need to knock it off. n/t

[yellowdogintexas]

27. it's a discussion forum and sometimes we get good ideas from each other

that enhance what we find on search engines. I so appreciate all the links the members of this board share daily.

Sometimes you google and you get so many hits you don't know where to start. Aren't we here to help each other out

[pnwmom]

29. Thanks, yellowdog.

I have trouble understanding why people attack others who are seeking help. I point people to links all the time, and I've never blamed someone for not wading through google. I know that people here often have great info at their fingertips.

I agree -- we should be here to help each other out.

[yellowdogintexas]

38. no problem at all

:hi: :hi: :hi:

[joshcryer]

40. If all you have to contribute is cheap one liners then please STFU.

WTF is wrong with you people?

[BlueIdaho]

4. No

Obama insisted (correctly) that the safeguards protecting the baby in this horrible scenario already existed in other legislation. He refused to duplicate protections found in existing law with this republican inspired political stunt.

[FrenchieCat]

5. Seems like you are very helpless. Everyday you have an Obama smear

you need to know about, and don't know where to look.

You bore me.

[pnwmom]

9. You're apparently one of those who's into personal attacks. Bye-bye!

I've had enough of your claws.

[gcomeau]

11. If I was going to answer her?

I'd say you cannot outlaw abortion without defining a woman's body as property. Witohut saying that as soon as she becomes pregnant her body ceases to belong to her for the duration and that she no longer has the right to self determination over what is done with it.

We don't force people to donate bone marrow to save the lives of born, living breathing people who DEFINITELY have the right to life... just not at the expense of violating other people's bodies against their will. We don't force people to donate a kidney to save those lives. We don't even force people to undergo the minor inconvenience of giving blood to save those lives because it would be wrong. It's their bone marrow, their kidney, their blood, and their choice what is done with it. Period. And we most certainly don't force people to spend 9 consecutive months pregnant and then give birth against their will. And that is the bottom line.

The choice of whether to go through with a prgnancy absolutely MUST be left to each individual woman's own determination. It is their body and their right to control over it.

As for the so-called vote to "allow babies who were aborted but alive to be placed in a seperate room to die"... that claim is based on the "Born Alive Infant Protection Act" which he didn't vote in favor of because of concerns that it was worded in a manner designed to undermine other existing abortion laws, which is a pretty standard tactic of the anti-choice crowd... not because he's some kind of cartoon villain trying to get babies killed. Ask your mom to stop and think, seriously, if she really believes anyone like Obama is out with some kind of agenda to try to get babies killed. It's a pretty ridiculous claim when you give it any thought.

[pnwmom]

13. My mother doesn't believe Obama has that agenda, and my mother is

pro choice.

But she and her friend are both octogenarians who VOTE and I wanted something that clearly documented Obama's position, that she could refer her friend to. Fortunately, I got a great link above.

[mzmolly]

16. Media matters has some info:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200808150013?f=s_search

Obama also addressed this on television recently calling it the blatent lie that it is.

[pnwmom]

19. Thank you, mzmolly.

:hi:

[mzmolly]

22. You're most welcome.

I'm glad to know what's coming from the right wingers in my world. OY! ;)

[NYCGirl]

20. And here is the rebuttal IN DETAIL:

http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/08/19/fact_check_born_alive_1.php

STATEMENT
"Senator Obama strongly supports Roe v. Wade and a woman's right to choose. He believes that there is a moral and ethical element to this issue, and he believes that women do not make these decisions casually, but wrestle with them in consultation with their doctors, pastors and family. Senator Obama understands that some will disagree with him and choose not to support him, and he respects those with different opinions. But the recent attacks on Senator Obama that allege he would allow babies born alive to die are outrageous lies. The suggestion that Obama -- the proud father of two little girls -- and others who opposed these bills supported infanticide is deeply offensive and insulting. There is no room for these kinds of distortions and lies in this campaign. What Senator Obama’s attackers don’t tell you is that existing Illinois law already requires doctors to provide medical care in the very rare case that babies are born alive during abortions. They will not tell you that Obama voted against these laws in Illinois because they were clear attempts to undermine Roe v. Wade. They will not tell you that these laws were also opposed by pro-choice Republicans and the Illinois Medical Society -- a leading association of doctors in the state. And they will not tell you that Obama has always maintained that he would have voted for the federal version of this bill, which did not pose such a threat. The bills Senator Obama voted against in Illinois were crafted to undermine Roe v. Wade or pre-existing Illinois state law regulating reproductive healthcare and medical practice, which is why Senator Obama objected to them."


2001 and 2002: OBAMA JOINED MORE THAN 40% OF THE ILLINOIS SENATE—INCLUDING NUMEROUS REPUBLICANS—IN OPPOSING “BORN ALIVE” BILLS

Obama Voted Against Two Born Alive Bills, With Almost a Quarter of the Senate, Saying They Would Be Struck Down. In 2002, Obama voted against a bill to create the Induced Birth Infant Liability Act to provide that if a child is born alive after an induced labor abortion or other abortion, a parent or public guardian of the child may recover damages for costs of care to preserve and protect the life, health, and safety of the child, punitive damages, and costs and attorney’s fees against a hospital, health care facility, or health care provider who harms or neglects the child or fails to provide medical care to the child after it is born. Obama voted against a bill to amend the Statute on Statutes, to define “born-alive infant” to include “every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.” Further defines “born alive” to mean “the complete expulsion or extraction from the mother of an infant, at any stage of development, who after that expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut and regardless of whether of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.” Obama predicted the bills would be struck down by a federal court were they to become law. Obama said, “Whenever we define a pre-viable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or other elements of the Constitution, we’re saying they are persons entitled to the kinds of protections provided to a child, a 9-month-old child delivered to term…That determination then essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place.” <92nd GA, SB 1661, 4/4/02, 3R P; 31-11-10 (BO: N); 92nd GA, SB 1662, 4/4/02, 3R P; 30-12-10 (BO: N); Sun-Times, 3/31/01>


LOTS MORE AT LINK

[pnwmom]

28. Thank you, NYCgirl! A great link. n/t

[joshcryer]

41. Great link!

It's amazing that they're so thorough!

[Ichingcarpenter]

21. Gee a member and doesn't have a search function

who we know has posted stuff before.....

Amazing.

[pnwmom]

31. Having a search function doesn't mean that I will find the best answer quickly.

If this is a waste of your time, why bother posting in this thread at all?

[Motown_Johnny]

24. There are so many answers to this I have no idea where to start

I would like to know where on TV you saw this. I have not heard it.




First and foremost the Supreme Court has decided that women have the right to choose. Any law that tries to countermand this decision is unconstitutional.

Next the person who sent this spelled Obama's name wrong. How the fuck can you assume they know anything about anything when they can't even get his name right.

After that look for sources to the lie, it will break down. The more they try to defend a source they can't name the more foolish they look.

Then you can ask if they would be willing to raise taxes to care for the children they want to keep alive at all costs. See what they think about trying to take some responsibility for the actions they condone.

On a larger scale you can explain that even if Roe v Wade is overturned, it would just turn the decision back to the states. Some states will decide to be pro-choice ans some will be pro-life.
SO.. after manipulating our courts and our entire political system for many long decades, this change in the law can be countered .. WITH A BUS TICKET!!!!!

Clearly all the Pro-Choice people in Pro-Choice states will simply help women in the more oppressive states travel to a place where her choice will be respected and not over ruled by a bunch of holier than thou psychopaths.

Then the backlash against the Republican party will be overwhelming. Everyone who fought for Roe v Wade to be overturned will be outraged when they Finlay grasp their efforts were all in vain. Also all the women who feel that their rights have been violated will vote 100% against the people who violated them no matter what other issue may be on the ballot at the time.

[pnwmom]

32. It was brought up during the Rethug convention. At the time,

I heard Olbermann give a response, but I wasn't paying a lot of attention -- I'm pro-choice and pro-Obama no matter what. But afterwards, I got an email from my mom addressing this same issue. I knew that the experts here could clue me in faster than I could find it myself.

[DogPoundPup]

25. If the person can't spell Obama, they are a dumbazz

from the get go. That said, I am against abortion ... but it is not my RIGHT to force my will on someone else of how they live their lives if that person is unable to afford to bring a child into this world and to give that little person all the needs that are required in this day and age to live a good and happy life. If the republiCONS haven't been able to resolve this issue of abortion, HAVING HAD CONTROL OF THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCHES OF GOVT. OVER THE PAST 30 YRS., it's obvious the RepuliCONS just want to make this a divisive issue day in and day out...yr. after yr....decade after decade.

Maybe this email sender should think a moment about the mothers in Afghanistan and Iraqmire who carried their babies to give birth only to have a 2000# bomb dropped on them and killed by tearing them to into bits! Maybe that nurse friend should go to Iraqmire and Afghanistan and wherever McSame wants war for the next 100 years and attend to the children in those lands where medical care and treatments are badly needed for those innocent ones.

RepubliCONS only care about the children until they are born, then they are in the CON ownership society, where the POOR then are left on their own by the RepubliCONS policies.

[pnwmom]

33. Excuse her typo, oh perfect one. Geez. All the pit bulls are out tonight.

The woman who wrote this happens to be over 80 years old, but like a lot of my mother's friends, she's online and still sharp. I don't think attacking them is a good way to change their minds.

[Skittles]

35. "considered disposal" ?

:rofl:

[Bluebug]

36. Glad that Obama is nipping this stupid

allegation in the bud. Classic Repug swiftboating smearing tactic. I wonder if the misspelled 'Obamah' (if typed by original sender) was intentional, to make it look even more 'Arabic' or exoticized :shrug: ::eyes:

[Undercurrent]

42. I'm amazed at the number of posts

asking about Obama's stand on this, or history on that.

All of this is in plain sight on his website. (Which isn't really his website. It OUR website, and the info is there for us to be able to inform others.)

Oh well, I gotta get back to work.

[democracy1st]

43. for the noobs what you said is appreciated

[holiday]

44. here is the perfect thing for her

http://www.matthew25.org/paf/index.htm