I'm Pissed and Angry at All DU & Kerry Campaign "SVet, No Problem" Idiots

[Raya]

Unless the new national and swing-state polls are all wrong,
the Repubs knew exactly what they were doing in exactly the
right places with their nasty smear campaign.

Dems were caught unawares in the bathroom with their pants down,
got smacked, and are now chasing the SVets with their pants around
their ankles.

SO..OO much time was wasted with the "No Problem" line and the
"Judo" line, while we were being screwed, instead of grabbing a rocket launcher and blasting those perverts.

Please: no more "Judo" and "chess" B.S. about the fix that
our own ineptness has left us in.

[Cocoa]

1. get over it

[Raya]

75. No. I think we need to get mad at our own incompetence!

[snyder]

2. I Agree With You

Kerry's campaign was complacent (!!) and asleep at the switch. Absolutely inexcusable.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Who's got problems?

http://talkingpointsmemo.com

[DoYouEverWonder]

4. Oh please, Kerry knew this was coming

he's just holding his fire until after the convention.

Let the repugs have their little piggy fest, it will be over soon enough. Then it will be hanging day.

[Raya]

10. Everyone KNEW something was coming. It was not a secret. BUT

There was a *&Y( press conference months ago. But, Dems were
lulled to sleep by the "No Problem" folk who thought
it would be a talk radio blip, ignored by Mass Media and having
little effect.

IF DNC and Kerry campaign operatives knew the contents, viciousness,
and damage potential of the SMEAR, then they are even more to
blame for not being prepared to blow it up the moment it came out.

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. It's still two months to the election

the closer to the election that Kerry can drop a few bombs of his own, the more impact they will have. Trust me, I know he has a few bombs to drop. Check my sig line for a clue, okay?

[Raya]

15. But, Now the BIG STORY is Kerry dropping like a stone!

NOT. SVets are LIARS.

[DoYouEverWonder]

17. The talking airheads are going to say that

no matter what. The only polls they look at are the ones that Rove puts out for them.

[CityDem]

115. Thanks to CNN

Kerry didn't think the media would run with this story. Once again, he underestimated the character of Wolf, Candy and Judy.

[Terran]

126. Will you get real for a moment please?

Kerry is not "dropping like a stone". The sky is not falling.

[Cha]

24. I trust you! I know Kerry's going to win...

so there Must be some great bombs for bush in his repertoire!

[The Hair in my Nose]

42. Plus

Kerry's nomination speech centered on his Viet Nam experience as his credentials to conduct the war against terrorism and manage the Iraq war.

This opened the door wide for what they should have seen coming. Had his speech emphasized our social and economic agenda (which others at the convention expressed so well) then the ads could have been written off as drudging up old history, irrelevant to the present.

Kerry made this stuff relevant. And I'm geting nauseated!

[Democrat 4 Ever]

106. Sorry, I disagree

The Swift Boat Vets were already making noise before the convention. Kerry's convention speech was just another attempt to answer these liars' allegations. People forget Kerry wasn't running on Viet Nam until these cockroaches crawled out into the light of day the weeks leading up to the convention and then he had to address the non-issue.

The convention was an excellent way for Kerry to get the message out that the SBVs are lying and show the support of his fellow soldiers. Kerry did underestimate the underhanded way the GOP operate. They turn everything around and use it for their own advantage. And are not bothered with the truth.

These guys are now claiming they "had" to come out because Kerry was running on his record - while failing to acknowledge they are the ones who raised the issue first.

I can't believe that Kerry and his campaign officials aren't aware of just how dirty Rove is willing to get to win. They need to take the gloves off and start hitting HARD. This president is a sitting duck on every issue - why are we defending a war hero and letting Bush skate?

[imax2268]

65. Exactly...

wait till after the convention...

[movonne]

5. I would not worry about these poll now...bush should have double

digit lead at this point.

[dsc]

21. why?

His convention hasn't started yet. He has been on vacation for close to a month (so what else is new?). There is nothing to suggest that Bush should be up at all now let alone by double digits. On Sept 3, I could buy that but not today.

[bobbieinok]

33. past history of incumbent lead at this point in campaign

[SotarrTheWizard]

56. I thought. . .

. . that typically the challenger gets a bounce after the convention and is in noticably in the lead until the incumbent's convention, where HE gets a bounce. . .and then the real race starts.

We aren't notably in the lead, and the Repugs start next week.

I hate to ask the question, but. . .have we done something wrong, and if so, how do we correct it by November 2nd ?

[ibegurpard]

6. Even if you believe they were caught flat-footed

Do you seriously have a problem with the way they've been responding lately? Do you not see the credibility of the people making these charges being questioned? And do you not see that the questions about Bush's service are starting to be revisited?
You can only call the Kerry campaign a failure if it loses in November. Until that time, we're all just guessing.

[Nite Owl]

7. It ain't over yet.

The media bears a big part of the blame but the Dems who are our spokespeople, our voices and faces on tv have not learned how to fight this. They don't have their facts all lined up and for the most part are poor at answering attacks and worse at attacking and we are rich in legitimate areas to attack * on.

[HereSince1628]

8. People who vote are on average older, idealists while idealists are

percieved to be younger (Are perceptions real?)

Interesting how Dean placed so much of the work load upon the young and the GOP is appealling to horrific memories of a time of strife among members of AARP.

It makes for an interesting comparison of strategy. Truth and ideals apparently mean little when you think you can appeal to the emotions of a group of people who historically might up at the polls.

In the mentality of our opponents, winning IS everything. Honor, Ideals, Wisdom, mean something less.

[bigtree]

9. I'm pissed at Dems who pay more attention to the republican campaign tripe

than they do to the efforts of our own nominee. No wonder folks are declaring the campaign dead. We decry the false media and then bandy it around here as proof that our nominee is in trouble.

BTW, most of the polls that supposedly show Kerry in trouble are well within the margin of error. The L.A. times poll has an incredible 4% margin. Why should I believe the shill polls that these compromised rags are flogging us with on the eve of their dog's convention?

I'll bet that most of these folks who want us to gnash and moan about Kerry's supposed slide can tell me more about the efforts of Bush today than those of our own nominee. Sad.

[snyder]

11. Kerry Is Dropping In the Polls

because of the SBVT thing. It never had to happen.

[Julien Sorel]

14. Prove that it was because of the Swift Hoax.

I have been asking for proof for days, and seen absolutely none.

[Raya]

18. LA Times, CNN etc all say internals suggest smear effect.

Don<'t ask for proof of public opinion cause and effect. But for[br />some reason all the polsters see it that way.

Some "judo" and "no problem" folk don't see what others say is
like an a-bomb in the middle of the campaign.

[snyder]

20. CNN's Bill Schneider ...

... who is hardly a Republican, said the same thing last night. People are telling pollsters that they don't believe the ads, but the percentage that would vote for Kerry because of his being a decorated veteran was cut in half, from 42% to 21%. This neutralized the whole message of the Democratic convention, and there's no way that number is going to rebound no matter what the conclusion of the SBVT smear campaign.

Sorry, but Kerry's complacent campaign made a major mistake here.

[bigtree]

25. Bill Schneider

is an ignorant fool and another CNN shill.

Inside politics got into business to pull Clinton down. They threw everything at him including ridiculous polls that didn't bear out. As a matter of fact, most of these 'news programs sprung up as the shill moguls smelled Democratic blood. They are still smarting from Clinton's two terms. They keep trying, though. Hope springs eternal.

[snyder]

30. I Generally Agree About the Media

but not about Schneider. He's a Democrat and a good analyst.

[bigtree]

34. Schnieder gives McCain the play of the week

A man for all parties?
McCain's support sought by Republicans, Democrats
By Bill Schneider
CNN Political Unit
Friday, August 27, 2004 Posted: 5:49 PM EDT (2149 GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/27/mccain/


. . . the president has trumped the Democrats by joining forces with McCain in a bid to rein in such groups (527's). "The president reached out to Sen. McCain to say, let's work together and pursue court action to shut down all of this activity by these shadowy groups," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

[snyder]

35. Schneider's Right: McCain Played Well

[bigtree]

76. McCain loses all credibility, if ,at the end, he will stand with Bush.

the man who smeared him and his supposed friend Kerry.

[oasis]

45. AEI is not a Democratic think tank.

[Sufi Marmot]

46. Schneider is an AEI Fellow - he's not on our side.

Schneider is a Fellow at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, a distinction he shares with Liz Cheney, David Frum, Newt Gingrich, Jeanne Kirkpatrick, Irving Kristol, Michael Ledeen, and Richard Perle.

(I have no idea what his party affiliation is, as in the case of Zell Miller, it's irrelevant).

Link #1

CNNs avuncular shill

-SM

[oasis]

51. You would think a self proclaimed "political junkie" would know that.

:shrug:

[snyder]

59. AEI Wasn't Always Far-Right

Schneider is part of the earlier AEI. He has some sort of tenure status at the place. Do your homework, kids.

[oasis]

61. The Republican Party wasn't always far right. Scheinder is close to both.

Do your homework.

[goclark]

36. Bill S. is a tight lipped rethug

and a card carrying member of the KKKCNN crowd

[Julien Sorel]

39. I read the transcripts from Schneider.

He does not establish a cause and effect relationship between the ads and the 42-21% change -- he just states that it happened, and implies an effect. And he also says this:

But did the ad change the horse race? No. But neither did the convention.


That's hardly conclusive.

But let's assume for a moment the ads have had an impact, and that that impact exceeds the crowding out effect they certainly did have on Bush's own negative ad spending. I keep hearing how Kerry should have "been all over" this issue from the start. How? These people have been demonstrated to be liars seven ways from Sunday, and the "controversy" still rages on, fueled by the media. The public have said they don't want to hear about it any more, that they believe Kerry earned his medals, but the "controversy" still rages on, fueled by the media. Kerry has spoken out. Kerry's boat crew has spoken out. Other veterans have spoken out. Other boat commanders have spoken out. And still the "controversy" rages on, fueled by the media. Yet Kerry is alleged to have had some kind of magic bullet, a "rocket launcher," the original poster called it, that would have snuffed this whole thing at the start, but he has been "too complacent" to use that magic bullet.

Fantasyland. If these tactics were so easily dealt with, they wouldn't be used. If people could predict what would happen as a result of a given behavior in this business, everything would be easy. But people can't, and it's actually a damn hard business, especially when considering the wormy mass of shit that passes for the journalism industry in this country.

I continue to point out that the Kerry campaign rolled right over another "scandal" during the primaries by ignoring it, Alexandra Polier. No one, except the truly smart folks like yourself and a few others, could predict this thing would turn out any different. Bush has been pouring tens of millions of dollars into negative ads against Kerry, and they have failed miserably. Did Kerry trot out his magic rocket launcher against all those ads? Is that why they failed?

[oasis]

44. Bill Schneider is a fellow of the American Enterprise Institute. That's

a right wing as they come.

[kodi]

83. well you dont get out much do ya?

i traveled extensively the first 3 weeks of august in nc, sc, ga, al, tn, vi, and fl and logged about 3,800 miles calling on customers in the chemical, textiles, and plastics industries. it was all people talked about and out of the mouths of secretaries, plant managers, vps of marketing, research directors, other salesmen, gas station cashiers, and waitresses/waiters it was all the same...kerry lied according to the swiftboat vets for revenge. not a single one said a kind word or defended kerry except me.

the impressions have been made. they will not be smoothed out easily, and even if jesus came down from heaven in a firery chariot and called kerry his son people would still believe the swift boat ads.

it hurt him, it hurt him bad. you are whistling past the graveyard buckaroo if you don't think it did.

john kerry's sacred ground was his war rep. the busheviks attacked it and overran it.

i guess taking my sig line at face value would be too much to ask.

[Julien Sorel]

88. Well buckaroo,

while I'm impressed by your extensive travels, I'm even more impressed by the lack of substantive poll data to back up your anecdotal accounts. And even less impressive than that is the failure of someone to explain what exactly Kerry could have done to snuff this issue. From what I'm hearing, broadcasters are now apologizing in advance for bringing it up -- but they are still bringing it up.

[kodi]

98. where shall i start?

how about having you stop thinking that a poll is god's own breath and start thinking and exploring for yourself your community and ask the same questions that polls do with those you encounter personally.

how about stop associating the impact of what the swift boat vets for revenge did with what kerry's response was/is. they are different with their own dynamics.

but finally, if one such as yourself continues to rend their garments over what kerry should have, could have done, just recall that the swift boat clowns annouced in May 2004 what their intentions were. kerry and his folks had months to plot a counter attack and prepare for rebuttals.

kerry 's sacred ground was not defended and his opponent's strategy was not unexpected. we know that kerry and or his campaign staff spoke to numerous fellow vets months ago about this, but it took weeks for many of them to come forward. kerry's campaign knew this was going to happen and they sat there for weeks responding like weaklings.

i like john kerry and have sent him silver, but his campaign advisors are pussys.

we are electing a president, not a den mother, and if kerry is unwilling to hit hard those who would willingly do it to him, i don't want him near the oval office.

[mbali]

103. Have you ever run a winning - or any - political campaign?

Perhaps you can submit your resume and our own campaign strategy to Kerry and see if he'll hire you to replace the advisers you think are so woefully inept and weak.

Of course, you might just prefer to do nothing at all since you seem to think he's too weak to be in the Oval Office. After all, he obviously doesn't have the qualities you need in a president - big-talking, shoot-from-the-hip, "I'm not a pussy" ham-handedness. If those are the attributes you think should be in the Oval Office, why aren't you supporting George W - who has them in spades?

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Julien Sorel]

107. You didn't answer the question.

Why am I not surprised?

He should "hit back hard" you say? Well how should he do that? Prove them to be liars? Gee, it seems to me that's been done over and over again, but they are still here. How else does one "hit back hard" at a group of people who have no honor, dignity, or shame, and absolutely nothing to lose in this affair? They aren't running for office, so if their reputations get smeared, they lose nothing -- unlike Kerry. The battlefield, you see (don't you?), is grossly uneven.

As I said elsewhere in this thread, it is impossible to predict in advance (except by people who travel a lot like yourself), which one of the many, many attacks Kerry has been subject to will take off. It is similarly impossible to fashion a response that will end the issue. So much of something like this is determined by the nominally objective media, over which Kerry, and his "pussy advisors," have little control.

I'm sure the Kerry campaign is grateful for your "silver." I'm sure they would be more grateful if more people actually thought things through and had constructive suggestions, besides vague nonsense about rocket launchers and "responding like weaklings," and "pussy advisors." This issue has been beaten around for weeks now, and I have yet to see one person come up with a good suggestion as to how Kerry could have choked this off, yet these same people continue to wail and gnash their teeth and toss accusations around, as if the answer is soooo easy to find. Just "go out in your community." Right.

[mbali]

109. I'm scared of you!

:yourock:

[snyder]

117. Hit Back At Bush's Military Record

...

[snyder]

118. Hit Back At Bush's Military Record

When Kerry finally spoke out, he said he'd be happy to have a discussion about his military service vs. Bush's. Then he nailed the connections between Bush and the Swiftliars. Then he called on Bush to denounce the ads and get them yanked.

Now let's look at what happened. The Swiftliars stepped up their attacks. Bush didn't back down. McCain deserted Kerry. It is way overdue for Kerry to stand up and fight like hell. He should:


- Accuse Bush of being AWOL and of desertion
- Demand that Bush release his records
- Ask what Bush was doing in the Houston community service program
- Demand Bush's discharge records
- Hammer at Bush's lies about not using connections to join the Guard
- Have surrogates suggest all kinds of nefarious things, with no fingerprints


THAT is how you fight back. So far, Kerry has done none of it. He's acting like George W.'s prison b****, begging not to be screwed again. Kerry acts like he's running for prom queen.

[kodi]

119. sure i did, you weren't paying attention even though many others have been

hey, i loved how you mysteriously put that rocket launcher in my hands, that was pretty neat, sneaky, intellectual buggery, but neat nonetheless. you should be proud of such distortions, karl rove has a place for you in his smear machine. you should call him.

how to hit back, why hit back?

these are questions you ask with your>>>>>

As I said elsewhere in this thread, it is impossible to predict in advance (except by people who travel a lot like yourself), which one of the many, many attacks Kerry has been subject to will take off. It is similarly impossible to fashion a response that will end the issue. So much of something like this is determined by the nominally objective media, over which Kerry, and his "pussy advisors," have little control.

you sound just like condi rice...."no one ever imagined anyone flying airplanes into the WTC."

seems more than just me have been aware of what was about to happen, what to do, and why and have predicted just such bushevik attacks. but why not kerry or his "alleged" paid professional politcal advisors.

maybe it was simply that they forgot the first rule of warfare, never underestimate your opponent, never believe that simply because your side won't do something that the other side won't either.

but it is apparent that they did forget.


from the blog....(that moderators should know do not worry about the 4 paragraph copyright rules)

http://www.pandagon.net/mtarchives/003266.html#more

"What do you do to stop a Karl Rove? What do you do? What...do you do?

"Stop imitating Dennis Hopper, for one.

"Tim Grieve writes about the Rove machine, and explains how it works - getting at, I think, the reason why responses to Rove tend to fail.

"Slater has watched Karl Rove work for nearly two decades, and he said the "mark of Rove" in a campaign is always the same: Aim nasty attacks right at your opponent's strength, but keep your own fingerprints off them.

"It happened in Texas in 1994, when Karl Rove ran Bush's campaign against Gov. Ann Richards. Richards' strength, Slater said, was her reputation for tolerance and inclusiveness. Then somebody started rumors in conservative East Texas, whispers suggesting that Richards and some of her staff members were gay. Bush didn't make the accusation himself, of course, but one day a state senator serving as Bush's East Texas campaign chairman -- a politician who had worked previously with Rove -- told a newspaper reporter that Richards' appointment of "avowed homosexuals" might be a liability in her campaign for reelection. The rumors, suddenly on the record -- at least sort of -- become newspaper stories, and Bush won the race.

"Six years later, with Bush and Rove facing a must-win Republican presidential primary in South Carolina, somebody started suggesting that Sen. John McCain's experience as a prisoner of war in Vietnam had left him mentally unstable. Again, it was an attack on the opponent's strength -- in McCain's case, his role as a war hero -- and again, Bush and Rove disavowed any involvement in the attacks. When McCain challenged Bush in a Republican debate, Bush said: " John, I believe that you served our country nobly."

"Of course, that's almost exactly what Bush has said about John Kerry, even as a group with close ties to Rove and the Bush-Cheney campaign runs an advertisement making the opposite point. When Larry King asked Bush about the Swift Boat Veterans' ad earlier this month, Bush said that he believes Kerry performed "honorable service" in Vietnam.

"Slater said that Kerry has learned a lesson from the losses suffered by Ann Richards and John McCain. "You do not ignore the attacks," Slater said. "Richards never responded, and with McCain the response was too muted and too late. The lesson here is that you should respond immediately and try to tag the Bush administration or the Bush campaign as the responsible party."


"The liberal groups I've seen that have tried to respond to Rove's tricks fall into a disturbing pattern that's never been effective. Instead of responding to the tricks, correcting the record, and tying the Bush campaign to it, they try to attack Bush in a similar area. Attacking Bush's Vietnam record won't work because he doesn't campaign on it. It's not a part of the leadership persona he presents, which means that even if you take him down on it, it doesn't impact his message. It can go towards a larger message about his credibility, about how much of a "straight shooter" he is, but as a response to the attacks on Kerry it just doesn't work.

"Rove's secret is that he goes balls-out in finding people to lie for him about the topic du jour. Someone who's obviously Republican but not connected to the campaign will make an accusation against an opponent that cuts straight to the heart of an (often) cultural issue - John McCain has an out-of-wedlock black baby/is a Manchurian Candidate, Kerry slanders vets, Ann Richards hires "avowed homosexuals".

"The question for Democrats/liberals/progressives is this: do we want to do that? In two of the three cases, outright bigotry was involved. In two of the three cases, an outright lie was involved. Those are Rove's tools - he keeps Bush out of it because it's always surrogates doing the dirty work, and then when it gets to Bush, he's always supportive of his opponent...yet not quite mad at the people doing the things he implies he doesn't approve of.

"If we want to copy Rove, that's the target. Bush's strength is that he looks like he runs a substantive campaign, that he has ideas and policies. He doesn't. He's an ideologue who depends on hatchet men to kill candidates personally. That's the way he works, and he has a body of campaigns to run on. The second part is Bush's reputation as a "straight shooter", a guy who has plans and knows what he wants to do. The 527 debate is a perfect place to go after this strength. He signed a bill he didn't like because he thought it banned the groups, then regretted banning them, then when he found out he didn't ban them...wants to ban them for the very first time.

"I will give Bush and Rove credit for something: they realize that the only way to truly defeat an opponent is to dismantle their strength, not to pick at their weakness. Bush never talks about his TANG service - he knows it's not a bright spot in his life, and it doesn't add to his appeal. It's hard to make someone ashamed of something they themselves take no pride in.

"We want to copy Rove? More importantly, we want to beat Rove? We don't need to lie, we don't need to be bigots, we don't even need surrogates to spread rumors for us - although a transmission system does help. What we need is to realize that we can never again run away from Republican strengths. Rove's managed to push a man who's succeeded solely by convincing voters that he has his strengths and his opponents have none - he doesn't have to build himself up, he simply reduces whoever's running against him."


Of course, this was all unknown to kerry advisors, paid political professionals all, since their response to a swift-boat hard kick in the nuts was to cry and complain instead of de-bunking immediately the allegations.

the swift boat clowns annouced their intentions in May 2004, i watched their press conference/meeting or whatever the hell it was on C-SPAN, and i assume that kerry's people did too. they had john o'neill's book avaiable to them months before the swift boat ads, they could have prepared for the allegations presented in the book and had a series of press releases available to press within hours of the first swift boat ads, and actually the kerry campaign was talking to viet nam vets who served with kerry months ago, but the campaign did not respond for weeks, and when they did, kerry campaign spokespeople were sent into the malestorm of the media who defended kerry weakly.

just hit the daily howler web site

http://www.dailyhowler.com

and review bob sommerby's postings throughout august and see for yourself how kerry campaign spokespeople got chewed up by the busheviks on this.

they were unprepared, and they should have been. just like george bush's government was unprepared for al quaida flying planes into the WTC, and they should have been.

[Julien Sorel]

120. I don't think I've ever seen a post so long say nothing at all.

The only topical part I could find:

Of course, this was all unknown to kerry advisors, paid political professionals all, since their response to a swift-boat hard kick in the nuts was to cry and complain instead of de-bunking immediately the allegations.

Of course, as I continue to point out, the allegations have been debunked, and debunked, and debunked. And the Swift Hoaxers are still there. It's like trying to drill through a diamond skull with a wooden drill bit.

[kodi]

121. calling them debunked does not fix the damage you ignore

ignoring the paucity of response from kerry's camp does not change the fact that regardless of the press debunking most of the charges people still believe them. and much of that is because of the way kerry's people responded.

but i note you are posting your same nonsense in response to a thread by dsc that is posting almost exactly what i have. so its not just me who thinks kerry's people have screwed up in this matter.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x685476#685726

[bigtree]

19. Polls that are sponsored by the same lying media that we criticize here.

Voters aren't as ignorant as some folks here would have us believe. Most haven't actually focused on the campaign that we are so glued to. The actual battle doesn't begin until after Labor Day. We are in a vacation season (who did they poll?).

Where is OUR spine? We have a winning campaign and a winning candidate. Kerry is even in most accounts with an incumbent, 'wartime' president. That is a reflection on the excellence of his efforts. I don't see what some here are pointing to, outside of biased, compromised polls, that would lead anyone on our side to conclude that Bush has the better campaign. Record joblessness, record loss of healthcare, lying and 'miscalculations' on our invasion and occupation of Iraq, abandonment of our veterans and soldiers, decimation and compromising of our environment in favor of logging interests, nuclear meddlers, and polluters, the abuse and eviceration of our civil liberties, the abandonment of our nation's poor in favor of giving our hard earned tax dollars to the wealthiest, the sham of declaring himself the 'education president' while refusing to actually fund his own inituitives, the snubbing of science in favor of political meddling and obstruction, the attempted use of our constitution to discriminate against our nation's gays and lesbians, the refusal to sanction anyone in his office responsible for the outing of a CIA agent, the reintroduction of new nuclear weapons and weapon's production . . .


These pitiful smears have also served to draw attention to Bush's absense from duty and Cheney's refusal to serve. They have not actually affected the credibility of John Kerry among anyone who has bothered to look at the facts of the accusation and bothers to pay any mind to Kerry's actual campaign. When we get the spotlight back after the convention, our nominee will stand tall against the counterfeit losers in the White House.

[Nicholas_J]

27. Well

Todays polls are showing that Kerry is beginning to pick up in the polls. The most recent polls is the Rasmussen which now has both Kerry and Bush at 46 percent, and the Rasmussen was showing similar slides in Kerry's leads that thl others were earlier in the week.

Polls released today also indicate that support for Bush's handling of Iraq is slipping again:

Support For Iraq War Waning
The number of Americans who think the Iraq war was a mistake has risen since the beginning of the year, according to two new national polls.

http://nationaljournal.com/members/polltrack/


Overall, as noted, we still are about two months away from election day. When you think of how Kerry was doing during the pre-primary season at this point, it was all but over for Kerry, and it was clear that Howard Dean would sweep the primaries, a sure thing for the Democratic nomination. sis weeks before the Iowa Caucus, Kerry had slipped to six percent in the polls, compared to Deans 48 percent.

It has been noted that Kerry finishes campaigns very well.

Another factor, is that people being polled in the last few days have indicated that the most important considerations for this election are the following two items, the ecomomy, nad health care. Kerry's two strongest points.

On top of this, earlier this week, the figures on the poverty levels and insurance figures do not bode well for Bush

The figured released today for the second quarter which indicated a slowdown in the ecoomy from the first quarter, and the Bush Administrations failure to meet the three percent growth rate they predict a month ago would be released with todays figures is another factor that is not in the Bush Administrations favor. The growth rate of 2.8 percent is particularly dismal for the Bush Administration, and again a good indicator for Kerry.

Most cases, the economy ends up being the major factor deciding the election. From the beginning, it has been figured that the race was going to be very close, at least in the popular vote. Kerry had some bounce during the period when all of the speculation on who he would choos as running mate, and then a little more in the period between choosing Edwards and the convention. For a periods of about two months, Kerry was a ew points ahead of Bush in a number of polls, statistically in a dean heat in most of them, and behind in a few, but this lasted really for a period of about 6 weeks. Now things are going back to the state they were in prior to that period, with Bush and Kerry statisticaly equal in the polls. The REpublican convention is coming up, and so we can expect some effect on the Bush polling data. Maybe a bounce, but oddly enough, sometimes the incumbent has been seen to drop after their convention, expecially if it is closer to the eletion, as this is about the period that the last of the undecided swing voters start finally making up their minds and in most cases, these voters break for the opposition and not the incumbent (in most cases 75 to 5 percent of the last of the undecided voters go against the incumbent) If history repeats itself, and this trend is followed, given the closeness of this race,and last bounce goeso Kerry, not Bush, as is the historical precedent, then this small bounce will make the election Kerry's.

[mbali]

16. Bush pulled out all the stops in the lull between conventions

hit Kerry with everything he had, according to plan . . .

And not only is Kerry still standing, but:

1. Bush looks even more like a petty, underhanded scum than before;

2. McCain has been neutralized;

3. Bush's approval numbers are still in the toilet;

4. Bush has made his own lack of serice fair game and it WILL be put out there in upcoming weeks;

5. The race is still a dead heat.

Everyone needs to calm down. This race hasn't even started.

[WiseMen]

22. I think some are rightly upset that Dems were not ready to hit back hard.

Lack of realism regarding the way public opinion gravitates to slime
could cost the election.

[mbali]

31. I don't agree

Kerry couldn't go after these guys when they first came out against him. That would have turned this into a Kerry v. Swift Boaters fight, instead of Kerry v. Bush. Kerry cannot and should not EVER go head to head with pitiful front groups like the Swift Boaters. The smartest tack is to do exactly what he's doing.

If this smear had come directly from Bush, then Kerry would have been smart to hit back fast and hard. But when dirty tricks like this are played through wholly-owned subsidiaries, the response must be more deft and strategic.

When they first started their smear, there was very little for Kerry to counter them with - other than "I did TOO!" Had he done that, he would not have neutralized them or tamped down the story. He would have just looked desperate and scared. And the press still would have been all over it, but with much less ammunition against the Swift Boat liars than is now available.

And he couldn't jump out there right away and accuse Bush of being behind it until the ties between him and the Swift Boaters were established.

Kerry handled this right. He had to let them dig themselves in deeper, entrench themselves in their lies while, behind the scenes, their connections to Bush were firmly established. He also gave Bush enough rope to hang himself, by offering him a chance to disavow the smear (probably knowing he would not). Then Kerry came out swinging against BUSH, not the Swift Boaters, showing how they are nothing but a shameless stalking horse for Bush. And Bush is now stuck with the Swift Boat tarbaby.

I don't think Kerry underestimated them at all. He just moved very strategically to counter them. Had he done what some others are saying he should have done, he would have fallen right into the Bush trap, severely damaged himself, and STILL not gotten the story out of the way.

[liveoaktx]

32. Don't think so-Bush had an ADDITIONAL MONTH OF MONEY to spend

versus Kerry. He'd already planned to conserve his resources for the time that the battle will really count, in the last weeks, and didn't want to blow it all on this nonsense. Plus, he probably didn't realize the media whores would eat this up so relentlessly.

I think it's unfair to say they were not ready, it could equally be that they were waiting to see if it would die an appropriate death, which would have happened were not the media complicit.

[mbali]

43. And if Kerry had come out swinging on day one

he'd be accused of turning the story into a much bigger deal than it would have otherwise been.

[snyder]

57. I Disagree

Kerry should have come out swinging, saying that these people tried pulling this shit last spring and now they're doing it again. He should have said you don't fuck with a veteran's war record, or else. He'd have won a lot of points for it if he had done it right away. Waiting made him look calculating and defensive.

[mbali]

63. IMO, going after them llikethat then would have made him look defensive

At the time, no one took them seriously - they were just a nothing group of nobodies (still are, but now they're getting more attention). Kerry would have been trashed for elevating them to his level (or stooping down to theirs) and would have been accused of overreacting. And then his reaction would have been used as an excuse for the press to turn this into as big a story as they've done - "It wasn't a real issue until Kerry made it one by responding to their charges. If he had just ignored them, they would have gone away and there'd be no story."

I strongly believe that, had Kerry gone after them right away, the story still would have continued just as it did - the press would have made a big deal out of it, the RWNs would have lionized these guys and Kerry would still be getting dogged about the issue. The only thing that might have been different is that Bush would likely have distanced himself from them sooner, thereby mitigating any damage he would incur by virtue of his association with them - which wouldn't have helped Kerry one bit.

[rocktivity]

48. Kerry finally gets it--the mainstream media is NOT on his side

and he's started to act accordingly. He's using spin-retardant soundbites like "smear and fear." He spent his post-convention TV debut laughing off the Smear-Boaters on the Daily Show. He dispatched Max Cleland to run a political swift boat into Bush's front yard. And his running that campaign commerical of McCain dissing Bush for sliming him was inspired--it played right into Kerry's hands by making McCain look like such an idiot (and Bush like such a lowlife) that he would had Kerry to pull it.

Yes, Kerry should have moved against the smear-boaters sooner--he should have realized that credible or not, the mainstream media was going to run with it. But if the above is any example of his political manuvering, the next nine weeks are actually going to be fun!

:headbang:
rocknation

[mbali]

49. What exactly should he have done when the Swift Boaters first

started talking?

[snyder]

60. He Should Have Come Out Swinging

right away. Come on, where is Kerry's "opposition research" team? The SBVT didn't come out of nowhere. Kerry's campaign, such as it is, should have had the goods on them a long time ago and should have pounced on them like crazy right away. That's how Clinton's people handled stuff like this, and by and large they did one hell of a good job of it.

[mbali]

71. Big difference -

Clinton's team responded head on to direct attacks from the Bush and Dole campaigns. They did NOT, during campaigns, go after surrogates.

Kerry's opposition reseach team did exactly what they should have done. They leaked information to various news outlets. How do you think the Washington Post knew to look in Thurlow's military records and the Boston Globe knew to check Elliot's records, etc.? The Kerry people - likely tipped them.

You acting as if this thing has dragged on for months. The Swift Boat ad came out on August 5. The very same day, Kerry bashed Bush for sitting around for 6 minutes after learning the nation was under attack - a far more effective issue than whining about the ad. Nevertheless, his campaign was clearly working behind the scenes to debunk the Swift Boat Liars.

On August 6, George Elliot recanted his story after the Boston Globe confronted him with his inconsistencies.

The same day, McCain demanded that Bush condemn the ad. "McCain rips veterans' ad criticizing Kerry war record; John Kerry got a boost from Arizona Sen. John McCain, who denounced a new ad about Kerry's service in Vietnam," Miami Herald, August 6, 2004

By Sunday, August 8, Kerry surrogates were out in force on the Sunday programs, challenging the Swift Boat Liars' stories. By August 12, Tweety was ripping O'Neill's toupee off. A few days later, the Washington Post exposed Thurlow as a liar.

While this was going on, the ties between the Swift Boat Veterans and Bush were being traced and confirmed and the New York Times ran with it later that week. They didn't get this out of thin air.

At that point, Kerry - armed with conclusive proof of Bush's connections to the effort - called on him to disavow the ads. When he didn't, Kerry let him have it with both barrels.

We may disagree on whether Kerry did enough soon enough, I strongly believe that he's handled this exactly right. I also believe that personally screaming about the smear in the first few days would have done Kerry far more harm than good. It was better for him to lay low, let his surrogates (and McCain) call Bush out and expose the lies, let the connections to Bush be established and, if the story went away, great, and if not, come out blazing.

[rocktivity]

84. He should have issued a very simple public statement

like, "This is obviously a politically-orchestrated attempt to divert attention from Mr. Bush's military record" or "I'm not the first Democrat whose military record has been attacked--remember McCain? And Cleland?" Think of how much prettier he'd be sitting now if he'd said that on August 5!

:headbang:
rocknation

[mbali]

87. Do you really believe that

had Kerry made the statement you suggest two weeks ago, that this story would have gone away? Do you think the media would have stopped reporting it and that the Swift Boat liars would have shut up?

If so, you have an amazing faith in media, and have completely underestimated the Swift Boaties and the Republicans.

[rocktivity]

89. The object was not to make the story "go away"

That wasn't going to happen no matter what Kerry did or didn't say. The object was to go on record as calling them lying political shills, sit back, and let the response team do the rest. The way things panned out, it would have made Kerry look like he was right all along, and now the door is open for him to trash BUSH'S military record with a clear conscience!

:headbang:
rocknation

[mbali]

102. The door's already open to go after Bush's military record

But it can't be Kerry who does it.

In my view, it's not all that important for Kerry to prove "he was right all along." The real issue is that Bush's political dirty tricks have been exposed - which wouldn't have been possible had Kerry tipped his hand and bashed Bush on Day One - his desperation has become apparent and, despite pulling out all the stops, Bush has barely nicked Kerry on this issue. Bush, the supposedly great wartime Commander in Chief is now going into his convention in a dead heat with Kerry - exactly where he was three weeks ago.

The real campaign hasn't even begun - and won't until after Labor Day.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

123. There it is. eom

[WiseMen]

12. Kerry can recover if MoveOn and others keep up counter-offensive.

But, if Kerry, MoveOn and others shrink from doing what is
needed to destroy this smear now, it will be a thorn in Kerry's
foot and will cripple his usual strong finish.

[DoYouEverWonder]

23. So tell me again

how many of you naysayers are Kerry 'supporters'. Please.

Let me say this again. I know for a fact that the Kerry Campaign has evidence in their hands that will hold up in a court of law, that the Bush Campaign not only collaborated with the SBV in a number of ways, but in fact, in some cases, they acted on their own in the name of the SBVFT, without the SBVFT knowledge.

It was the Bush Campaign, not the SBV, who organized and planned the Gainesville Rally, printed and distributed flyers, sent e-mails and press releases, raised the funds from their supporters, rented the Community Plaza in their own name, and coordinated the entire event.

The Kerry campaign has documentation and contracts, that the Alachua Co Republican Executive Committee signed with the City of Gainesville for this event. They also wrote a contract for the Swift Boat Vets with the City and apparently the SBV's had no idea this had been done. In other words, the ACREC acted on their own.

Now re-read my sig line and maybe you will understand my drift a little better.

[snyder]

38. I Can Tell You This Much ...

... I'm going to Kerry's dinner tonight in Seattle. Price of admission is $1,000 a plate and I gave more than that. After he sewed up the primaries I sent him $2,000. I gave another $1,000 to the DNC about a month ago; $1,000 to the Media Fund; $1,000 to Moveon for their commercials; and $1,750 to Moveon's PAC for congressional candidates. Once the Dems pick a candidate for WA's 8th district that guy will get $1,000 from me, and I suppose I'll give another couple grand to someone, either Moveon or the DNC, before it's all over.

Look, I just don't want these people to fuck it up, that's all. If they fight hard and smart and then lose well I'll be really crushed and disappointed and depressed, but if they lose because they're a bunch of amateurs at this then I'm going to be really pissed off. Why? For the same reason that I'm giving 10x as much to politics this year as ever before: If Bush gets another term, this country is going to be in deep, deep, deep, deep trouble.

I want Kerry to do what it takes to win. At the very least, I demand that, at minimum, they don't make stupid mistakes and call them performance art. It's never been anywhere close to this important, and I say it as something who's a political junkie voting in his eighth presidential election.

[DoYouEverWonder]

40. You really do

put your money where your mouth is, congratulations.

Just hang in there, Kerry is going to win this thing.

Check out LBN, a huge bomb just got dropped on the Bu$h campaign. The dam has burst. It's almost over.

[snyder]

50. What Is LBN?

... as for the donations, I usually give to the tax-deductible charities but this year I decided that my whole tax cut should go to defeat the guy who gave it to me. :) What really angers me is the "Democrats" who supported it. If these people wanted to get the economy moving, they'd give the entire tax cut to individuals making less than $35K and families making less than $60K. Then they'd institute touch-tone telephone voting (secure, cheap, easy) and move Election Day to a newly-created Monday holiday.

One of these decades, the Democratic Party will get serious. I continue to away the day.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. Late breaking news...Israeli spy in Pentagon and this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x782012

YOu sure do post a lot of negative crap about the party in general for one that spends so much dough...usually people who dole out that kind of money get ears...I'm surprised you're wasting your time here complaining about it...based on the above article, Kerry did the right thing.

[snyder]

54. Look, I Expect the OTHER Side

to make outrageously stupid mistakes, not my side. Think of me as the football coach who screams and shouts until the last minute of the 4th quarter. Any of you people who don't think I want Kerry to win are stark raving nuts, that's all I can tell you.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. Given that the SBVTS have been around for a long time and Kerry has risen

above the crap they have thrown at him on several occasions, it is incumbent on you to demonstrate that Kerry's strategy is incorrect.

Kerry has not lost an election and granted it CAN happen, but NEGATIVE campaigning favors Repubs NOT Dems BECAUSE negative campaigning SUPPRESSES voter turnout which ALSO favors Repubs NOT Dems.

Kerry is following the playbook of the last Dem president to win two terms...Bill CLinton. Stay above the fray, be positive, present people with a vision of the future and remind people that the guy attacking you is doing so because he can't run on his horrible record.

I'd hate to have been reading DU and all the hand wringers when the Gennifer Flowers story broke.

BTW...I'm more of a Phil Jackson fan when it comes to coaching techniques.

[WiseMen]

67. Kerry lost his first 2 elections for congress in the 70's.

[mbali]

72. I stand corrected - but he lost one not two elections

In 1970, he entered the Democratic primary for Congress, but withdrew several months before the election. However, he did run in 1972 and lost to the Republican when the third party candidate withdrew four days before the race.

[Ron Green]

47. Thanks for your generosity to the party and to

the cause. Also, DU can use some of your support as well. Thanks!

:-)

[WiseMen]

62. Do you really think Rove cares one wit. The SMEAR HAS ALREADY WORKED!

They don't care about the law or truth or morality.

They are ready to end the SMEAR-GATE NOW, because they have already
achieved their goal -- casting doubt on Kerry's integrity and leadership.

No amount of legal evidence that the Campaign come up with will
have any effect unless the media makes a big stink of those
"legal issue" and we know that they won't.

[Onlooker]

26. The Repugs overplayed their hand

By bringing the Vietnam issue onto the national stage, the Repugs played directly into the Dems hands. The Dems WANT to talk about Vietnam, want to talk about Kerry's record of service, want to talk about Kerry the veteran, want to talk about Kerry the hero. If they had quashed the Swift Boat Liars too soon, they would not have had the opportunity. I think the American people are beginning to accept that Kerry will talk about veterans and about his experience in Vietnam, and that plays into the Democratic strategy.

[Leilani]

94. I hope not!

Every poll shows people are SICK of hearing about Vietnam.

I know I am.

There is a war going on in Iraq, right now, & people are dying.

No more Vietnam!

[Cuban_Liberal]

28. The "Chicken Little" wing of the party rears its head ...

Polls are meaningless, at this point, and the fact is that the SBVT ad is beginning to come back to bite Bush* in the ass...

[Raya]

70. You and the great DemStrategist! LIAR AND SHOWBOAT are dangerous slams!

When a presidential candidate's honor and integrity is
skewered, he had better hit back hard and fast.

All the dopes who advised Kerry against preparing for the Smear or
from responding immediately and fiercely should be demoted out
of earshot.

[Cheswick2.0]

77. polls are never meaniningless

they wouldn't take so many if they were.

[RetroLounge]

29. and how many campaign have you run?

thought so...

RL

[renotyme]

80. likely about as many as you have

so i guess you are both equally qualified to voice an opinion, yes?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

37. Campaigning is more successful than kvetching. Get campaigning.

Kvetching at polls doesn't get voters checking Democrat candidates in the polling booth on voting day.

Kvetching at DU denizens doesn't get voters electing Kerry on election day.

Bush has egg on his face and is floundering and flopping around. Kerry is looking presidential.

It wouldn't matter if Kerry were five points ahead or five points behind. The same level of effort is required getting voters into the booth voting Democrat. The same level of registration is required. The same level of protesting is required. The same level of door-to-door is required. The same level of letters to the editor is required.

Kerry is our candidate. He will win or lose the election his way. You can be an ankle-biter or the wind at his back.

You know what to do. Don't be an ankle-biter.

[mbali]

41. Thank you!

[WiseMen]

68. Sorry Friend, but many of those most worried were those on the frontlines

of the campaign who were seeing the effects of the Smear.
They were almost univerally poo-poo by the armchair strategists
who were not out on the street smelling the shit.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

69. Understood. The choice remains: anklebiter or wind at Kerry's back . . .nt

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

52. Read this then say that

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x782012

[snyder]

55. Yeah, But This Has Hurt Kerry Bad

Last night, CNN's poll showed that after the convention 42% of likely voters would support Kerry because of his war record. Now it is 21% of likely voters. The Swiftliars accomplished this with a $500,000 ad buy. God, it's like Bin Laden taking down the WTC with 20 people and half a million bucks.

If this had happened while Kerry fought them tooth and nail I'd be mad, but to have it happen when Kerry's campaign was ignoring them makes me see in colors.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

66. Baloney..CNN is owned by the Saudi's....they aren't calling people with

cell phones...give me the raw data on their poll...I'll find a hole in it.

What did you want Kerry to do? Spend his 75 million in August on a smear campaign?

How was Kerry IGNORING them? What didn't he do? They uncovered all the liars, they made and ass of several of the liars, they pointed to a DIRECT relationship with the Bush campaign...what else do you think he could have done short of bankrupting his own campaign for the fall season?

[mbali]

74. hear hear

[nolajazz]

86. Where is the link of this poll?

The latest poll from AP had only 28% of people belive the SBV lies and a half people think Bush was behind the group.

[WiseMen]

58. Dems too focused on Hating Bush rather than Defending Kerry: Too SLOW to

attack back, because they had not really prepared for that
smear as obvious as it should have been.

[jonnyblitz]

73. all the cable news channels are saying the ads are working.

this isn't MY view necessarily, just what I have noticed on tv. I take what I hear on tv with a grain of salt. I tend to believe them on this one, though.

[okieinpain]

78. I agree with you. why kerry's people have not planned for this

is what's weird to me.

[grasswire]

79. kudos to BuyCitGo...

...who was sounding the alarm about it from the get-go, weeks before now. He was right.

[WI_DEM]

81. I agree that the Kerry campaign held back their fire for too long

The Slime vet ads were on for two weeks and getting all kinds of free media exposure. Now you see the typical responses "Oh, we knew it was coming" or "we are holding our fire until later." Holding for what? That is nonsense. If you think that Kerry wanted this to be the issue of the campaign for the last 3 weeks and lose what gains he was making among independents and veterans then I got some land I would like to sell you. The only reason Kerry finally did begin a major counter attack was because the damage was finally beginning to catch up with their internal polling and the focus groups. This has been a major distraction for the democrats. It is giving Bush a bump in the polls even prior to Bush's convention. Furthermore Bush will come out of his convention with a bounce. He is going to move to the center. He is going to have moderates dominate the speech-giving. My prediction is that Bush will have a 5 point or more lead in most polls after his convention. Luckily, convention bounces don't usually last--though it did for "Poppy" Bush in 1988 and Bill Clinton in 1992.

Sorry, but maybe it is the frustration speaking but the Kerry campaign did blow it by letting these Slime-ball Vet ads become the issue for the past month when they should have been pushing their agenda and responding RIGHT AWAY to these liars. If they were waiting for the media to do it--then the Kerry campaign is being run by incompetents. They should take a lesson from the Clinton campaign in '92 which was positive and still refuted the Republicans from their "WAR ROOM".

[TheRovingGourmet]

82. A buddy of mine used to post here and would always warn

that this sort of thing would start happening about this time of year. He was ill received, to say the least.

[John_H]

85. "Idiots" is a little harsh. But you can throw in rope-a-dope w/ Judo and

chess. A man we all respect recently opined on the subject of "political judo."

Stewart: "...so if they throw the first punch...you go right after them with a pool cue."

Clinton: "That's my theory."

Mine too, Mr. President.

[Raya]

90. Where is DemStrategist NOW. Has Kerry fired his ass??

Did Pitt really vouch for him?
I Kerry really advised by that kind of lame-brained
poser?

Please Sir, what do you say now?

[bobbyboucher]

91. Did you know anything about Kerry's past before now?

I mean, Kerry goes through this every election apparently. Are you upset that he has this baggage? Or are you upset that some of us aren't panicking?

[Raya]

97. Some of us are out working. No panic, just anger at some "chess" dunces

that did not want to take the Swift Vet group seriously from
months back and did not want to let Kerry hit back with the
righteous anger that he felt.

Kerry has been hobbled by a few advisors who are too smooth by
half.

[mellowinman]

92. Threads like this are why I almost never post here

This is just pathetic.

Dropping like a stone? Really.

So, the race has been basically tied, with Kerry's lead inside the MOE, but now that its tied with Bush's lead inside the MOE, the dynamics have drastically changed?

How much of this is just statistical noise?

How many of you just listen to what the brain dead media spins?

Kerry has handled all this masterfully. The backlash is about to begin. Watch and learn.

Do you ever examine the internals of these polls? A majority of Americans believe Kerry did not lie about his war record. Not only that, but calling attention to the atrocities of Vietnam don't play well considering the atrocities of our current bungled war.

Soon to be 1,000 dead soldiers.

More and more mainstream stories about how bad the Swifties have lied.

An Israeli spy.

What a bunch of panicking knobs.

And that's why I'll never have a high post count at DU.

Because a Kerry victory isn't really about DU.

It's about America.

This thread is a bunch of bullshit.

(except for those of you wise enough to know when you're chain is being jerked)

[oasis]

93. Please post more often, Mellowinman. Words of wisdom are always welcome.

:hi:

[mbali]

104. Hear, hear

And, by the way - a majority of voters also say that Bush was behind the Swift Boat ads.

So Kerry got the message across without having to bleat and scream about it.

Unfortunately, too many people here don't understand that subtlety and smarts are sometimes more effective than sledgehammer tactics. Fortunately, Kerry DOES understand that and, more important, knows just how to do it.

[mellowinman]

114. Thanks to you two, I'm still posting here.

We are DOOMED, I tell ya, DOOMED!!!!

AAAAAUUUGGGGHHHHHH!!!

RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!!

Oh wait, things are actually looking pretty good.

I panicked.

[sampsonblk]

95. You're right, so Ignore all the hate on this thread

Ignore all the hate on this thread. You are right on your points and you are right to rant. Just my opinion.

[MirrorAshes]

96. Bullshit. Even if it hurts Kerry short-term, it hurts Bush more long-term

And remember, Kerry hit them hard when he hit back, with legal action and by trapping Bush.

Ultimately, I honestly believe that it helps Kerry. He will beat this, and he will beat Bush. Not only that, he's gonna BREAK them.

[WI_DEM]

99. right, it will hurt him in December after the election

as he is planning his next inaugural. The press will then begin to ? if he actually ran a negative campaign.

[GOPAgainstGW]

100. PATIENCE-BIG SBVT BOMB COMING OCTOBER. TRUST US!!!

[Raya]

108. Issue is not SVet but Kerry Integrity and Honor. Lack of IMMEDIATE

fact-filled and powerfull response allowed doubt to emerge in
the minds of many who had just started to believe in his strenth of
character and leadership.

[mbali]

110. You know this how?

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mbali]

105. Yeah THAT'LL show Kerry!

[oasis]

111. Why shouldn't Dems be worried about a backlash if there is violence in NY?

Remember Chicago 1968? That's why Nixon won the "law and order" vote.

[Bush was AWOL]

112. They just aren't getting nasty enough with these guys

If Carville or Morris were running the show for Kerry they'd have dug up some dirt so nasty the swifties would be crying and begging for the pain to stop. Kerry's team needs to go for the Jugular and squash these guys now.

[GOPAgainstGW]

113. Being Pissed Off Beats Being Pissed On - Every Thing is Perfect Relax!!!

[Raya]

122. Only if we keep up a real hard-hitting counter-offensive.

[goodhue]

124. Call me an idiot

but I think SVets will boomerang.
Kerry is sitting pretty.

[barb162]

125. It was handled very badly

from the beginning. The campaign chose to ignore it at first and then they tried to defend against the charges instead of going on the offensive bigtime and saying things like how long was Bush in Vietnam again, what about his medals again, etc.
It is as if Kerry's campaign staff is either inept or against doing a good counterattack. Counterattacks would be SO damned easy because there is so much to work with re the TX/AL military records and the Bush record in general.

Kerry has to start a counterattack now and bigtime.