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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:18 PM
Original message
My Two Cents - For What It's Worth
Edited on Mon Aug-18-08 10:24 PM by NanceGreggs
Just thought I’d weigh-in on the current discussion about McCain and the Saddleback forum – for what it’s worth.

The minute I heard about the forum and its proposed structure, I knew that McCain would have the questions well in advance. That’s not because I’m prescient, or know someone on the inside. It was just an obvious conclusion.

We’ve all seen McCain in action over the past few months; we’ve heard the gaffes, seen the moments of utter confusion, the inability to focus. It would therefore seem obvious that his handlers would never have allowed their boy to sit for an hour, alone and unaided, to face questions he’d never heard before and answer them off-the-cuff.

I realize that the GOP have not been particularly smart of late; but let’s face it, they are also not that stupid. There was no way on earth they were going to sit back-stage, fingers crossed, hoping that McCain – a man who can’t get through a four-minute presser without referring to prepared notes – would somehow manage to not commit political suicide on national television.

Within the first few minutes of McCain’s appearance, it was apparent that he knew what was going to be asked, and had been drilled like a schoolboy to memorize his all-too-pat answers. There were no pauses to think or reflect, no hesitation, no false starts; this man was well-rehearsed.

The current cone-of-silence fiasco is, in my humble opinion, a red herring. Had McCain and his handlers listened to Obama’s portion of the program – which they more than likely did – it would have been of no use to them.

Even if a team of note-takers could have come up with answers to the questions they were allegedly hearing for the first time, they could never have compiled the appropriate answers – perfectly crafted and politically well-phrased – and, at the last minute, drilled those responses into McCain’s head.

Remember we’re dealing with a man who often loses his concentration mid-sentence; the idea that he could have been “prepped” from scratch within an hour of the broadcast is, to be frank, totally laughable.

While the McCain camp is, predictably, venting their outrage over the very idea that someone would raise suspicions about their candidate’s whereabouts when he was allegedly ensconced in a cone of silence, the real issue is being all-too-cleverly obscured: What did John know, and when did he know it?

The scam that was perpetrated on the American public was not as simple as a last-minute heads-up that could have potentially advantaged one candidate over another.

The real scam was profferring John McCain – a man who has demonstrated time and again his inability to remain focused, alert, and accurate in his facts – to the public-at-large as someone who can speak spontaneously and coherently without prompting or correction. And given the stakes in this presidential election, that is a scam of truly mammoth proportions.

It’s just my opinion, but the fact that McCain’s handlers are now screaming bloody murder over allegations that he heard the questions posed to Obama during air-time is just another carefully-crafted smoke-screen to hide the real issue, and distract the public’s eyes away from the much more devious sleight-of-hand: presenting McCain as someone with the mental agility he so obviously does not possess.

In fact, making an issue of said allegations plays well for the McCain camp. Anyone who has any qualms about whether McCain heard Obama’s answers, and was therefore able to come up with responses for the same questions within minutes of going on-air himself, will walk away thinking that while perhaps Johnny “cheated”, he also dispelled the notion that he is unable to think and react quickly - giving credence to the idea that such a notion was nothing more than a baseless rumor spread by those commie liberals who would love to see a good man like this go down for the count.

There is a much more compelling story to be looked into here than the he said/she said of who was in the car, who was in the waiting room, and who was in the library with Colonel Mustard and the candlestick.

The real story is why an all-too-often publicly befuddled candidate was willing to set himself up for potential political tragedy, and to what lengths people behind-the-scenes were willing to go in order to ensure that tragedy had no chance of happening.

Just my two cents – for what it’s worth.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow. You are so right.
Even if he had heard the questions, he still would have flubbed the gig. It was too smooth and rehearsed. You nailed it. He had it all memorized, and they probably had many rehearsals.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Repeated "yes" responses for each paragraph and several
hallelujahs thrown in as well.

This is the sort of thing that ought to be running in local newspapers instead of the drek that's in there instead.

I'd argue that this is the discourse by informed citizens the Founders envisioned and hoped for. "A republic, ma'am, if you can keep it," Franklin admonished. Nance, you are doing more than your part as keeper of that flame.

And it burns brightly every time you give us another thread. You're a path-lighter. And not least, you're right on the points as well. McCain is a dodo-head and couldn't have managed without cheating.

But then again, he's a Republican, so what did I expect.

Recommended strongly.
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madmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. Nance, your posts are always worth alot more than two cents
This one sentence nails it. And that should be worth uhh, about a buck three eighty.
;)

'The real story is why an all-too-often publicly befuddled candidate was willing to set himself up for potential political tragedy, and to what lengths people behind-the-scenes were willing to go in order to ensure that tragedy had no chance of happening.'
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youngharry Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Pastor Rick complicit
Everyone should call Pastor Rick and tell him he has betrayed America and his followers. He has lied---a Sin-- for politics. What a pathetic man he is--morally and intellectually dishonest.

Call -- 949-609-8000 and email him at : pastorrick@saddleback.net.

He is a disgraceful man, nothing more than a Judas to the American people for political purposes.



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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
63. I'm sorry, but that would be a meaningless act....
These people have already demonstrated their belief that hypocrisy, lies, etc., committed in the process of electing conservative republicans are, in fact, NOT hypocrisy, lies, etc. Long before Bush 43 came on the scene I have felt that THE great hypocrisy of the right was that they spout off unendingly about the rule of law--WHEN IT APPLIES TO OTHER PEOPLE--while giving themselves an "anything goes" blank check. I remember being at work in the mid-later 90s; a repairman had come into the place and was venting to someone else about the car in the lot with the Bill Clinton bumper sticker, and how could anyone support such a shady character. Well...that was my car and my bumper sticker, and I quietly told the fellow that I felt that if right-wingers could make a hero out of would-be felon Oliver North I could admire Bill Clinton. Dude had NOTHING to say. Point being...these folks are the world champions of the double standard. The same people who wanted to impeach Clinton over Socks the Cat's Christmas card list have spent almost 8 years excusing or denying the much higher crimes of Cheney/Bush/Rove/Rice. Write to the dude but I doubt it will change anything.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. My dear Nance...
I'm of the opinion that your two cents are worth way more than that...

Well said!

K&R

:patriot:
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. I was wondering where my new girlfriend, Nance, has been.....

She may not KNOW she's my girlfriend..... but if she had a poster, it would be on my wall.


;-)
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. Feh, ya know there WAS a time ...
... when my poster would have rivaled Farrah's.

Nowadays, not so much ...
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Oldtimeralso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. Proud to have been #5
Do you really think that McLame could memorize all of those responses, we all remember the mysterious back bump on shrub in the 2004 debates.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Yes, I think he could memorize what was necessary ...
... but it would have taken hours and hours of non-stop drilling.

He even had the attitude of a school-boy after answering a question; that facial expression that said, "I remembered it right, didn't I?"

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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. The upside, Nance, is this.
The McCain people saw on Saturday night is now the McCain the public will expect to see in the Fall Debates.

But as you so astutely pointed out, there is no way that McCain can sustain that level of performance in a spontaneous environment.

So the bottom line may be that even though they made their boy look good this time, it may be another long-term mistake in the name of short-term expediency.

Let's hope so, eh?

- as
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Excellent observation!
The downside of this little dog-'n'-pony show is that the bar of expectation has been raised - a bar he will undoubtedly trip over in the debates.
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Thank you!
Couldn't have made it without your excellent post!

- as
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
51. But the question is...will they make sure he gets the debate questions in advance, too?
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think Keith Olbermann had it about right when he told McBush to "GROW UP."
K&R
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. McBush?! Ah ha ha ha! So many ways to express the disdain.
Is McMumble as good of a comic feast as *ush or even better? Hard to tell.

He's so creepy it's scary, but as long as he doesn't get elected pRes, we should have lots to laugh at looking back.


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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. Another STELLAR one, Nance!
Political bait-n-switch. Much like this bunch did with reagan. Packaged an addled old man into a matinee-idol cowboy (or in mcsame's case, the good ol' reliable "maverick") and sent him out there with his teleprompter and cue cards. And America LOVES fantasy. Especially the rootin' tootin' cowboy kind. :eyes:
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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #10
64. It always boggled my fragile little mind that Saint Ronnie
managed to convince so many people that he was the "Great Communicator." Sure, he could put on a good show, but the man's verbal bungles have filled volumes. Everybody slips up now and then, and when you're president everything you say is scrutinized, but the man said shit like "trees cause air pollution." If Bill "Big Dog" Clinton had said that they'd have called for a Congressional investigation. And then there's the image of Ronnie falling asleep during a meeting with the Pope, and fumbling with a jar or jelly beans during, I think, a G-7 meeting. And, of course, his support for right-wing death squads. When Bush 41 came in I appreciated that he seemingly tried to distance himself from Ronnie by declaring himself kinder and gentler (which of course was BS), but it amazes me that so many still hold to this idea that he (Ron) was so amazingly wonderful. My most bizarre experiences in this vein were sitting around with my stoner pals smoking weed, listening to them talk about how Reagan was the greatest president in American history, seemingly oblivious to the irony that if Ron's agenda had been fully implemented they all would have been serving hard time on drug charges. But he made America "strong," and even though these guys didn't have so much as one minute of military service between them they got all sucked into this "America standing tall" bullshit.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Do you recall Robin Williams on SNL, playing Reagan
wired so his aides could feed him answers in a press conference, was befuddled by police and radio interference?
And Hartman and Nealon were so cool as the guys feeding Reagan the lines.

One of the funniest skits ever on SNL.
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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. Didn't see that, but I wish I did.
Phil Hartman was a genius.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. It was hysterically funny..and made more so by the possiblity of its being true!!!
Edited on Tue Aug-19-08 07:32 PM by BrklynLiberal
I have tried to find a video of it, but could not locate one.

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LuckyLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #67
77. There was another SNL skit that had Reagan rehearsing to be befuddled and airheaded.
When they were off the air, he was this perfectly intelligent, well-spoken man with a million-dollar vocabulary. It was a hoot!
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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #77
81. A few years back I heard a piece on public radio
where an author alleged that much of *'s buffoonery was contrived to appeal to "grass roots" Amurricans. I'm not sure if I'm ready to allow that the man is not an actual idiot but it does make you think. The man was born and educated in the elite corridors of New England, which makes his brain-damaged cowboy routine all the more odd. Add to that the viral video of him during gubernatorial debates in which he actually sounds informed and coherent, and it does make you think that either he has major medical or mental issues or he is acting like a buffoon in order to appeal to that part of our society who have been conditioned to hate anybody who wears Birkis or likes espresso.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. I was thinking along those lines myself.
His answers were too quick and too long to have been devised in the half hour to hour he would have heard the questions...either that or he's a quick study and he has been screwing up with his speeches too much to go the quick study route.
He had the questions long enough for his staff to make answers and for him to memorize them. You're right Nancy. :thumbsup:
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. I have been thinking that too, regardless of the "cone of silence".....
as he was drilling and preparing for this forum the entire time that he has been refusing to speak to the press.

However, since what you are proposing is impossible to prove, the fact that McCain has set up the expectations really really high is best for us at this point.

I think that even during the debates, McCain will have some pat answers. That is what he does....he's a Reagan without the charm.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. "....he's a Reagan without the charm."
You nailed it, FrenchieCat!

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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Patty Hearst without the initial innocence.
Edited on Mon Aug-18-08 10:48 PM by Tigress DEM
(Became a collaborator while in POW camp* kind of like Patty identifying with her captors after her long confinement with them.)



Songbird McCain vs Vietnam Vets 1992
*http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=171237&mesg_id=171237



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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. George W. Bush without the alcohol. n/t
-as
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Cheney without the forceful personality and trigger finger! n/t
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Well, we really don't know about the 'trigger finger' part.
His handlers, from all appearances, don't let him play with guns.

- as
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. "Reagan without the charm."
That pretty much nails it.

Yes, he'll be well-prepped with pat answers for the debates, i.e. "Here's what you say if they talk about abortion," and, "Here's a good answer for a question about education," etc.

The problem will be when he's asked to follow-up with more detail, or to expand on something he's just stated. We all know what it's like to memorize answers to exam questions - but all it takes is one small but unexpected monkey-wrench to throw everything you've committed to memory out the nearest window.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. That's assuming they WILL ask him follow-up questions.
I hope to God they do, but they treat him with such kid gloves, I won't believe they will until I actually hear them do it.

Yep, I'm more than a little skeptical.

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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. Where the "He said/She said" part comes in is showing another
part of the big lie that is McSame's campaign. They SAID he was in "cone of silence", but I doubt he was, especially with what I heard on the Rachel Maddow Show today.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6659743&mesg_id=6659743

But you are correct (and definitely worth more than 2 cents), in that there is absolutely no way in hell that McSame could have come off so polished in his answers unless he knew the questions beforehand, AND had had time to memorize and prep for Saddleback.

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youngharry Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. Pastor Rick complicit
McShame could only have gotten the questions from Pastor Rick. These right-wingers will do anything for politics, cheaters one and all.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. You know it.
Apparently truthiness is something the Reich Wing is incapable of.

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ladym55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. This makes good sense
You're right. Even if Grampy had heard the answers in the car, they wouldn't have had time to rehearse the befuddled old fool to give his pat one-sentence answers.

I'm still unhappy that we had a debate at an evangelical megachurch, but that's just me and my affection for the separation of church and state ...
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
21. 1st debate Kerry vs Bush SHOCKED
& SCARED the public, after that Bsh suddenly got a lump on his back & replied like a semi-intelligent belligernt frat boy. Of couse it's standard now to preview everything for the gop, like the John Cusack "Runaway Jury" film. It's so obvious that you know they blackberry/textmsg/im each other-no group of people use the exact same words to describe events, this can be used to prosecute them in their w@r grims tr!a1
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
24. We should let this one go and just make sure Obama is well reahearsed next time with an abundance of
possible answers.
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Even if McCain has done this we note it, we learn and come back twice as smart and rehearsed.
Edited on Mon Aug-18-08 11:03 PM by barack the house
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
29. The reason that the MSM media has actually looked into this is not because
they find the charges believable but because the find McCain's performance so unbelievable.


Its like Bonds and his little pills. We may not know when he took them but we know that he took them.


Now here is the wonderful thing about all of this:

Next debate McCain is uncomfortable, probably over briefed and most importantly there are follow up remarks from the clever guy from Hawaii.

McCain is going to meltdown and the charges of fixing the debate in Orange County are going to come back big time along with side by side replies that are, well kinda like Barry Bonds before and after pics.


McCain knows he cheated and got a way with it, but just like the kid in school he knows he won't be able to cheat on the next two midterms and the final.


Hope his health stands out - thats a lot of pressure, for the kid in junior high, Barry Bonds, or a 72 year old fraud running on empty.


Too bad he cheated on the prayer departement too, some of that would be coming in real handy about now.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. So true.
In addition, the MSM gets to look like they're "investigating" something, looking for the "truth" behind the allegations.

Of course, while they are focused on "was he in the cone-of-silence waiting room or wasn't he", the real question about whether he was given the questions and prepped long before the broadcast never gets discussed.

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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
32. Rick even fielded easy questions for McCrash...allowing hin to pontificate his stumps
was a set up

although Obama came through holding his own and in fact...may have swayed more than a few to the Blue side,
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
35. I agree--I said this morning that he was all hopped up like he was on a game show
Edited on Mon Aug-18-08 11:38 PM by wienerdoggie
and going for the big money--all fun, no risk. Way too overeager to get each question and nail his pat little answer. He actually had the time and comfort to make jokes and play to the crowd, perform a little, because he wasn't exerting much mental effort or experiencing normal anxiety over the interview. He clearly knew what to expect, even beyond what listening to Obama could have given him.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Wow!
You've captured it exactly, "like he was on a game show"!

I just hope he's happy with his consolation prize at the end of this campaign - a home version of "The Presidency Game" and a year's supply of Rice-a-Roni.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. LOL! He's gonna need that Turtle Wax, too.
That Arizona sun is broootal.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Okay, all right, I hear ya ...
... we'll throw in the Turtle Wax already.

Just remember that all prizes are taxable; prices quoted are F.O.B. and do not include shipping and handling - and may be prohibited in some states.

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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #41
65. Except that game shows have real security...
Many years ago I was a contestant on Password Plus, and it was a lockdown situation. Escorted to the bathroom, the works. Even Allan Luden was kept under lock and key. Every step was taken to prevent even the possibility of cheating. There are years of protocols in place for this sort of thing. Those who are supposed to be unable to hear always wear headphones with music playing for example, in addition to being visually and physically seperated from the action.
Silly points perhaps, but Password was MI5 compared to the complicit cheating at Warrenville.
I won much money, and a crate filled with Farrah Fawcett hair products. Many years ago....
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
36. I think the whole "cone of silence" is just a distraction for the
cheating that took place well in advance of the day of the forum.


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Another Joe Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. NO - THE DISTRACTION IS WHEN MCCAIN WAS PREPPED
It does not matter - a dishonest preacher knew that the event was not what it was being represented as. This preacher is promoting a adulterer and giving him a sham platform to promote his candidacy.

The integrity of the mccain campaign is the issue as well as the integrity of the evangelicals that hide behind the word of Jesus promoting sleazeballs like mccain.

The real issue is about character and warren and mccain (and the people behind it) have demonstrated they are lying liars that will pander in any way that enables them to steal another election.

Its really about the lies, not about the timing.
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Another Joe Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
39. SOME GOOD POINTS, BUT
we all know that this is going to be a dirty, dishonest campaign. We all know which side is going to initiate the mudslinging too.

Yes, good analysis, but we need to get the truth out there. So-called "reverend" warren knew he was lying when he repeatedly talked about the "cone of silence", yet his PR firm was proclaiming this morning he knew it was a joke and that we should all know it too. They claim he knew mccain was not in the building and that there was a "gentleman's agreement."

However, warren is pretending to be surprised that mccain was not protected from knowing questions/answers.

They can't have it both ways, warren could not have been making "funnies" if he thought there were safeguards in place (which he has pretended to do).

So whether he was prepped a week ago or during the staged scam media event is not important either. What is important is the pandering and lies - in this case, a lying preacher that hides behind the words of Jesus.

Not saying you are wrong, but my opinion (I respect yours) is that when mccain was prepped is the red-herring.

The obvious lies from the self-proclaimed man of God is the real issue. The fact that a nationally recognized "preacher" would use his position to promote an adulterer and then lie about the scam is the BIG issue here.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. We don't disagree ...
... but I do believe that when McCain was aprised of the questions to be asked is an issue - because it certainly wasn't en route to the broadcast.

As for the less-than-honest-preacher angle, that is why I said,
"... and to what lengths people behind-the-scenes were willing to go in order to ensure that tragedy had no chance of happening."

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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #39
55. Hey, Another Joe!
Welcome to DU! :hi:
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
42. That two cents is probably worth a few billion yuan
which is handy, since the Chinese pretty much own us.

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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Is that enough yuan to buy back the Chrysler Building?
It doesn't hurt to ask :shrug:
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. We could make a counter-offer.
But I think we're too late.

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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Well, that's just sad ...
I had great plans for the Chrysler Building. I was going to put a hook at the top of it and - well, you know how I just love really, really, really loooooooooooooooooong earrings!

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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. We might have to settle for something shorter.
Like the White House.

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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Well, that just ruined my night.
But there's still the Empire State Building, right?

(HINT: Christmas is just around the corner ...)
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. It needs some work
but it's crazy tall. Let's put in a bid before China does.

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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
50. A penny for your thoughts = McCain didn't even need the questions in advance...
He knew perfectly well he was sitting in front of various forms of bubble-headed fundamentalists & blown dry tel-evangelicals. What? Someone needs a probable question & likely answer fed them through a fiber optic listening device to know the answer to: When is a baby entitled to human rights? In front of such a group? Please, those were softballs of the 1st order. Pitched by a pastor leading whole tracts of people not reeeaaaallllly intended to do unto others as they would have others do unto them.

To his handlers great relief; McCain wasn't being called upon to delineate sectors between Shia & Sunni this time, where the borders of Pakistan really are, or call forth the names...of the blood...of the stones of Jerusalem;

Who do you listen to for guidance? What are your moral faults? And the moral faults of America? Define what it is to be rich :):(.......I detest *I'm OK your OK* pop psyche; it's for suckers. Pop-theology is for chumps.

McCain isn't the only one that has handlers. Barack isn't going out there on a wing and a prayer, he's has smart people behind him too. But pulling the eyes & ears away from the import of simply being able to absorb the gravity of the moment one stands or sits within is imo the province of canard, a game of 'find the lady'. There's no time to 'find the lady'.

Instead, rather, knowing ones audience becomes supreme. There is no substitute for an acute relationship to what is situational awareness. Hearing the pretty words we find so balanced and strung like pearls or popcorn; others prefer NO! - I'm not going to say it, I'm not going to say straight-talk; I'm going to suggest instead they like it simple, because they are themselves simple. And if it's one thing McCain delivers routinely, it is the chaos of a war monger wrapped within the image doddering simplicity.

Knowing full-well that they are in fact after us...paranoia I leave to Lenny Bruce. It's time to get busier...
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #50
71. If you say to Nance "a penny for your thoughts" and she offers her "two cents".....
..what happens to the extra penny?


(I miss George Carlin)
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #71
80. "When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America...
"...you get a front row seat" - George Carlin
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
52. K&R I wish I could have given John McCain a hug at Saddleback ......
... like the one he gave Dubya in that famous and fawning picture we've all seen (and retched over). If I coulda, I woulda groped his back very thoroughly, to feel for just how much electronic equipment was hiding underneath his coat.

Pity the man for his declining mental faculties, but don't let him near the Oval Office!
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
53. It also helps...
that he was in front of a friendly audience, and he was given questions tuned to his platform.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
54. Warren has admitted giving both candidates advance notice
of some of the specific questions he was going to ask, as well as the general subject of some others, Thursday to Obama and Friday to McCain.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/who-knew-what-when/

I suspect that this was done at least partially at the urging of McCain's handlers, who knew perfectly well that their slightly addled pet would melt down in a totally off-the-cuff forum. Whether McCain got a more complete briefing on the questions than Obama is another issue, though it wouldn't surprise me in the least. If Warren wanted to pump up McCain in the eyes of the audience, that would be the slickest way to do it, since even McCain wouldn't know that he had been given an unfair advantage (assuming he would even care).

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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
56. Both candidates knew the tricky personal questions in advance--and the general tone of the rest.
These were McCain's people, well-heeled religious conservatives who would predictably cheer while he hit all the applause lines in his stump speech and pulling out a couple of old POW stories to tug at the heartstrings. It's something that even the most braindead politican can do with his hands behind his back. Oh yes he was coached, no question about it.

With the exception of the "moral failing" question where he limited damage by referring to his failed marriage without going into any details regarding how he dumped wife #1 for a prettier, richer model after coming home from Vietnam, McCain could have been doing a town hall in Toledo.

Obama's mission was to try and show these people that he wasn't some scary dude and that he respected the beliefs of people who disagree with him. That's not something that's easy to do in soundbites. Obama's performance was more thoughtful and personal and I think will help him with people who actually saw the forum.

Unfortunately, our media pundits are as predictable as a churchful of evangelical Christians. The ability to speak in soundbites is the most critical skill for any man or woman who would be president and any hint of nuance or God forbid introspection, must be hammered at as a mistake as great as cutting a giant fart in front of the microphone.

Sad but true.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
57. Nance, I'd take your two cents over anyone else's dollar any day
Well written and thoughtful, as usual. :toast:
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
58. Kick.
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mlevans Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
59. Bingo! n/t
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Iodine99 Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
60. My Two Cents Worth -- LISTEN to CSPAN - McCann
On CSPAN they have the video of McCann at the church - bring it up - listen to the first 19 minutes. At 18.38 minutes he wants to talk about the Supreme Court Justices. If I am not missing something, THAT SUBJECT HAD NEVER BEEN BROUGHT UP. Is McCann a PSYCHIC? I sent this info to MSNBC - CNN - and OBAMB but have not seen this info on TV.
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
61. I knew, too, within the first few minutes. When has McCain *ever* answered questions without
so much as an "uh..umm...er..." giving him time to think?

It was a charade of McCain impersonating a man whose mental capacities are sharp and whose responses are quick.
As you pointed out, this was yet another fraud perpetrated on the American people.

The MSM is not going to expose this as they should, nor will they go within 20 ft. of Rick Warren's possible complicity.

The only good that will come of it is that he will have to explain - when the 1st debate is held - why his answers don't come as fast and furiously
as they did at Saddleback.




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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
62. I wasn't aware of the "cone of silence" controversey...
does anybody have any links? Sorry to be an out-of-touch spaz.
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
66. Now THIS, Ms. Greggs, is a good column.
Far better than the attempts at comedy you've been doing the last week or so. It's based in facts and reasonable speculation as to the meaning of those facts. Thank you for producing a common-sense discussion.

What the public needs, and what they may not get, is an honest face-to-face debate between Obama and McCain, run by a moderator who intends to challenge BOTH men. I'm sure Obama can answer any question thrown to him, without hidden prompters or heavy coaching. I'm equally sure that McCain can't. The question is whether we will get such a moderator.

This whole event, run by an evangelist who is apparently trying to achieve the status and wealth of Jim and Tammy Faye, didn't really stand a chance of revealing anything. It was naturally a stacked deck in favor of McCain; it's gratifying that Obama held himself well in this unfair test.

Unfortunately, the only real test these candidates will face is a grim one. Will McCain die of a heart attack before someone assassinates Obama? And there, again, I think the deck is stacked in McCain's favor; no one, even radical DU posters, are trying to shoot him. And that is NOT sarcasm (I can't afford that fancy dripping symbol); it's my judgment based on decades of seeing how Republicans work and Democrats don't.

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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
68. Yet another great post....Thanks so much.
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Willo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
69. Excellent Nance
I didn't quite agree with myself about McCain being prepped in 30 minutes.
Frankly I dismissed a longer period of time because I was thinking of the damage in attempting to prep McCain for a variety of possible questions. So for anwers he couldn't learn or that might lead to a follow up question, he was to give a POW story. He was allowed to interrupt, keep Warren on McCain's preferred track and run out the clock.


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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
70. They used religion to craft a lie----that McCain could answer questions he had never heard before.
When we now know from Warren that he had heard the questions before---and that he had an opportunity to hear the exact wording of the questions and Obama's answers.

It was a great big sham.

Good work!
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
73. I'll match your two cents and raise you a quarter. I felt the same thing.
There is no way that John McCain can speak extemporaneously for five minutes much less an hour on random issues and questions. It is also unlikely that he could do so convincingly if only briefed in the hour Obama was being interviewed. I am surprised that he could do it at all, but obviously he did. This exhibit was staged and Warren was part of it.
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Maineman Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
74. I definitely agree. The whole thing must have been a setup.
I was thinking this long before I heard Andrea Mitchell or anyone else raise the question.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
75. Being a tad senior to the venerable senator, I can vouch to having a senior moment every now
and then, though not nearly as severe or pronounced as McShame evidences regularly. Of course, unlike McShame, I've never been tortured as a POW. But come to think of it, neither has McShame when applying the criteria the Bushista cabal uses. :D
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LuckyLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
78. This makes sense. And come the debates, they will be rehearsing him like crazy.
But can he pull it off, even with rehearsal? I doubt it.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
79. Kick.
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Irishonly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
82. Your two cents are just fine by me
When I first heard about Saddleback I went to their web site and my heart sank. I was almost expecting to see a teleprompter for McCain.
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