At this point I think Biden may be the best selection for VP

[book_worm]

of course it's my opinion and doesn't mean squat, but I said it. I think Foreign and defense policy will be major issues and Biden is one of our parties strongest voices on those issues. Plus I'm beginning to think that McCain is going to select Ridge as his running mate, and Biden is a good counter selection there, too, because he was born in PA and has roots there. Just a couple of random thoughts.

[Eurobabe]

1. Did you see his OP-ED article from the Financial Times

Russia Must Stand Down.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/707f4ebe-686b-11dd-a4e5-0000779fd18c.html?nclick_check=1

[gateley]

4. And as opposed to Bushco's DEMANDING they cease and desist,

Biden is encouraging Russia to stand back and allow negotiations to take place. He's not THREATENING them, like Bushco is.

It's called diplomacy. He gets it.

[BOSSHOG]

2. Combine Biden as VP

and Obama announce that General Clark will be his Secretary of State and mccain can kiss his mythical foreign affairs experience advantage goodbye.

I appreciate your random thoughts.

[gateley]

7. Or even swap Clark for VP and have Biden as SOS -

Our country would be in good hands either way.

[nsd]

10. No, this would backfire.

Obama can't afford to give any ground to the charge that he himself is not ready to lead. Announcing not one but two old guys with decades of experience makes it seem like Obama agrees that he isn't up to the job and needs help.

Pick a VP, make it clear that this person is #2, and leave it at that.

[musicblind]

I would be very happy with Biden. n/t

[RichGirl]

36. My first choice would be Hillary.

But I would be very, VERY happy with Biden. He is intelligent, knowledgeable, experienced and an incredible speaker. I heard him speak a few years ago. He started out light...he was as funny as any stand-up comedian, then he became serious and spoke with such passion that you could hear a pin drop in a room of over a thousand people. He has a sense of peace about him that only people who have experienced and survived horrific tragedy have.

Two good looking men with gorgeous smiles...definitely a winner!! I think poll numbers would go up immediately if he were VP.

[CrispyQ]

38. ~ Sway,

"Two good looking men with gorgeous smiles...definitely a winner!! I think poll numbers would go up immediately if he were VP."

Damn straight! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[AdvancedProgress]

3. As it stands now?

Has anyone compiled a recent list of valid VP front runners? :shrug:

[gateley]

9. On DU or in the real world? :-)

Even the pundits have pretty much stopped yammering about it since they've gone through Reed, Kaine, Biden, etc., -- I don't think anyone has a clue.

[AdvancedProgress]

14. I was feeling that was the case

Just thought I'd check. The question really comes from the whole Clark thing (he's in, he's out, not interested, etc.) But that's another thread altogether.

:crazy:

[BeyondGeography]

5. He's the only Senator I can even remotely get excited about

mostly because I think his style (abrasive, bare-knuckled, in your face) compliments Obama's quite nicely.

[LSparkle]

8. Agreed ... and his post-it looks GREAT up there on the Big Board!

Biden combines seriousness with levity ... I'd look
forward to a general election campaign with him on
the ticket!

[Dinger]

18. Excited About Biden?

:rofl:

[nsd]

6. I'd be happy with Biden.

Though, I don't think his Pennsylvania roots count for anything. The family moved to Delaware when he was 10 or 11. That was more than 50 years ago.

The problem with Biden is that he's been in Washington so long that he steps on the change message and his abundance of experience might contrast unfavorably with Obama's shorter resume. Still, he might be the choice; there does not seem to be a perfect candidate.

[BOSSHOG]

13. Delaware is just a county of Pennsylvania

(despite Delaware County Pennsylvania) A VP nod from inside the beltway with experience is a nice balancing act. There can not possibly be total change and Obama is an insider if we get down to it. He just hasn't been inside as long as those older then him.

[gateley]

19. You're right - there is no perfect candidate.

And it must be so stressful trying to decide who covers the most bases.

[Think82]

11. Yup. Kinda wish it was Biden/Obama, but I'll take it.

[CrispyQ]

39. Zang! --nt

[Bok_Tukalo]

12. He (along with Lugar) sure understood Russian intentions

http://biden.senate.gov/press/opeds/oped/?id=32de6895-94b4-47fb-b413-0f776630f369

[gateley]

17. Biden and Lugar are awesome --

and the rest of the SFRC members are nothing to sneeze at.

Biden was the first one to warn about Pakistan -- and he did it during a Presidential debate. As you can see by this statement you linked to, he was aware of and addressing the situation in Georgia last Spring.

These guys KNOW their stuff!

And we and the world will benefit with Obama in the WH -- a President who actually listens to and respects the recommendations of these experts.

[Muttocracy]

27. good for you remembering that - he has been on top of it for while

I remembered his hearings from June about oil, Russia, etc., but had forgotten that Op-Ed.

Biden's level of bipartisanship makes McCain's laughable.

[Fire_brand]

15. & he'd be the best attack dog, outside of Hillary

and maybe Clark

[mrigirl]

16. I completely agree. Biden would go after McCain and sink his teeth right into him!

It's time the Dems showed some balls come election time. I would be elated if Biden gets the nod!

[SuperTrouper]

20. Yuck!! Sinking your teeth into old, wrinkled flesh...it is like biting a cadaver

:puke:

[Muttocracy]

28. what are you trying to do, poison him?

:P

[PatSeg]

21. Biden called "Best of Congress"

<The latest issue of Working Mother Magazine features a story about Senator Joe Biden, the recipient of the magazine's parent company's "Best of Congress" award.

Biden got the honor from Working Mother Media and Corporate Voices for Working Families for improving the quality of life through family-friendly work policies. >

http://www.wdel.com/story.php?id=486137575833

Just saw this a few minutes ago. He certainly has been getting a lot of positive press lately.

[gateley]

23. Wow. nt

[inthebrain]

35. There were only fifty applicants

and 24 won.

This is the most ridiculous boast of winning a meaningless award I've seen.

http://corporatevoices.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/meet-the-best-of-congress/

[Bucky]

22. Biden's certainly the most vetted possibility

People know his quirks already--the chances of any unpleasant surprises with Joe are close to nil. And he makes a hell of a debater.

[antigop]

24. For the reasons you stated (foreign and defense policy) I think Biden should be Sec'y of State n/t

[Debi]

25. Was just talking to Mr. Debi about how Biden would counter Ridge in PA

Biden has domestic policy experience as well. He'll chew Ridge up in a debate. He'd be a great attack dog for Obama. I agree with you.

[gateley]

26. I was thinking of Biden vs Ridge when his (Ridge) name was mentioned.

Agree - he'd stomp all over Ridge. All Biden has to do is ask how much security on our boarders has been increased. People can just tromp across the boarder from Mexcio, yet they won't give the Boarder Patrol more help. Do they think terrorists only come in directly to JFK or drive down from Canada? And the Canadian boarder isn't exactly tip top either.

[inthebrain]

29. Obama picks Biden and he will lose the election

That's as bas a choice as Gore picking Lieberman.

I really don't think the left in the party is going to support Biden either. That's the worng guy to pick in trying economic times. The Bankruptcy Biull lies squarely on this guys door step. He's awash in cash from credit card companies.

As Molly Ivins used to say, you have to dance with the ones that brung ya. Obama selects this guy it would be like endorsing the trickle down economics of the Republicans. And that has always cost this party votes from the left.

Sorry. Just a terrible idea.

[RichGirl]

57. Is the left going to support McCain.

We have two choices...TWO! Unless you want to waste your vote which would essentially be a vote for McCain.

[inthebrain]

139. Who says I'm talking about my vote

One thing I have watched is a lot people on the left that are not happy with Obama's move to the center. A lot of them really don't like Biden at all and would not vote for any ticket with him on it. Even with a gun to the head.

They can choose not to vote or vote for a third party. Either or.

[PM7nj]

84. lol.

[applegrove]

30. Biden or Richardson. One or the other I hope.

[Major Hogwash]

31. It could be.

He has the chops for the job. That's for sure.
I know he said he didn't want it, but damn, he would be good in that position.

[Alexander]

32. No. Biden sucks on domestic issues, voted for the IWR and is a gaffe machine.

Thankfully it seems Obama will pick Clark instead of Biden.

I would be okay with a Cabinet position for Biden, though.

[Think82]

33. ummm... might want to check out Biden's "best of congress" award post #21 above

[inthebrain]

37. I did, there were fifty applicants and 24 winners

I suppose this means Elizabeth Dole would be an apt VP as well.

Afterall, I'm sure she supports unions and working folk.

Recipients of the Best of Congress award are:

U.S. Senate
• Joseph R. Biden, Jr. (D-Delaware)
• Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio)
• Robert P. Casey, Jr. (D-Pennsylvania)
• Christopher J. Dodd (D-Connecticut)
• Elizabeth Dole (R-North Carolina)
• Kay Bailey Hutchinson (R-Texas)
• Johnny Isakson (R-Georgia)
• Amy Klobuchar (D-Minnesota)
• Herb Kohl (D-Wisconsin)
• Gordon H. Smith (R-Oregon)

U.S. House of Representatives
• Tom Allen (D-Maine)
• Russ Carnahan (D-Missouri)
• Rosa L. DeLauro (D-Connecticut)
• Chaka Fattah (D-Pennsylvania)
• Carolyn B. Maloney (D-New York)
• Deborah Pryce (R-Ohio)
• Dave Reichert (R-Washington)
• C.A. “Dutch” Ruppersberger (D-Maryland)
• Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Florida)
• Allyson Y. Schwartz (D-Pennsylvania)
• Christopher Shays (R-Connecticut)
• Ellen O. Tauscher (D-California)
• Lynn Woolsey (D-California)
• John Yarmuth (D-Kentucky)

[Alexander]

42. Oh, snap! Seems like someone didn't "think" this through.

[Think82]

45. 24 winners out of 500+ federal legislators isn't so bad

I'm not familiar with the award, but you and itb will stop at nothing to bash joe biden, despite his being one of the most respected dem senators on both sides of the aisle for many years. he's also the 99th wealthiest member of congress, and a long list of legislative achievements you ignore while focusing on 2 votes you don't like.

Seems you have some sort of repressed homo-erotic feelings for Joe that you havent dealt with : p ???

[Alexander]

46. You obviously didn't notice a lot of them are Republicans.

Or maybe you did and you just don't care.

"I'm not familiar with the award, but you and itb will stop at nothing to bash joe biden, despite his being one of the most respected dem senators on both sides of the aisle for many years."

You are apparently not familiar with my posting history either.

I have consistently praised Biden's foreign policy credentials and said he would be excellent in a Cabinet position.

Maybe you shouldn't pretend I have some agenda after 900 some-odd posts.

And if you aren't familiar with something, maybe you shouldn't talk about it like you are.

"he's also the 99th wealthiest member of congress,"

My heart bleeds.

"and a long list of legislative achievements you ignore while focusing on 2 votes you don't like. "

Actually, the Drug Czar is a government position he created.

Do some research before bashing DUers next time.

"Seems you have some sort of repressed homo-erotic feelings for Joe that you havent dealt with : p ???"

Stop projecting. It's obvious your love for Senator Hair Plugs knows no bounds.

You'll even make shit up if it means you get to kiss his ass.

[inthebrain]

67. OUCH!!!!

I don't know how anyone could confuse me for a freeper.

I'm probably futher to the left than most posters that post here. I suppose anyone that's not willing to kiss the ass of a corporate sell out couuld be labeled a Freeper.

[Alexander]

72. Are you referring to another post? I'm on your side here.

I would never call you a freeper. I suspect we agree on much.

[inthebrain]

80. refering to another post

not you.

[gateley]

90. Yep, you're two peas in a pod. Good company - you complement each other well. nt

[gateley]

92. Well you know I'm familiar with your postings, Alexander --

and it's not that you have valid arguments against Biden that gets my blood boiling, it's how you present your opinions. We're all stupid, kool-aid drinking dumb fucks, you, on the other hand, see the real truth. You're better and smarter than we are.

[Alexander]

131. Actually, no I don't. Who are you, anyway?

I don't know you at all. Why you expect me to know you remains a mystery. :shrug:

"and it's not that you have valid arguments against Biden that gets my blood boiling, it's how you present your opinions."

Yeah, I'm sure my opinion that Biden deserves a Cabinet position really pisses people off. :eyes:

"We're all stupid, kool-aid drinking dumb fucks,"

I never said that.

But thanks for creating a meaningless straw man and destroying any possibility of rational debate.

"you, on the other hand, see the real truth. You're better and smarter than we are."

Nope. I make educated guesses. Nothing more. Another meaningless straw man.

The fact that my guesses are educated apparently sets me apart from many DUers.

Sorry if that pisses you off. But it's not my problem.

[inthebrain]

51. Its not 500 its 50.

consider that 24 won you can hardly claim that Biden is "the best".

[Alexander]

54. Don't worry. Think82 will just ignore that and continue to pretend that we hate Biden.

I really have to question this individual's motives.

[inthebrain]

61. I've gotten that before

It's nothng new.

Joe Biden represents EVERYTHING that is wrong with this party.

I happen to dissagree on his foreign policy "expertise" as well. One that is well versed in foreign policy would not have voted for the IWR. But that's not even so much as a gaffe as it is a long standing position by both parties not to argue over foreign policy decisions.

A tradition that kinda starting to fall apart a bit but mainly because of upward pressure from the American people.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muttocracy]

74. what do you mean by in the Cabinet but not affecting policy? nt

[Alexander]

76. I thought it was self-explanatory.

Cabinet members don't propose or vote on bills.

They give the President advice on their area of expertise.

[Muttocracy]

78. but they are the leaders of executive agencies, thus having a big influence on policy

particularly how it is actually executed.

[Alexander]

112. Cabinet members defer to the President on everything.

They don't do anything unless the President says so.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alexander]

126. It's fairly obvious, if you bothered to look at the convention schedule.

My personal choice was Feingold, but the convention theme makes it clear the VP will be Clark.

"Just so you know, I alerted on your butt for calling some people BidenBOTS."

Oh yeah? Well hey, genius, it's also against the rules to say you're alerting on people.

Maybe you should read the rules more carefully next time.

:eyes:

[Eurobabe]

127. And maybe you should grow up.

I'm done with you. Bai!

You just met my ignore list. A special place reserved for people such as yourself.

[Alexander]

129. Your inability to read is not my problem. But thanks.

Thanks for wasting everyone's time with your fact-free posts.

"Do not say that you are hitting the alert link to report another member. You are permitted to tell someone that you are adding them to your ignore list, provided that you actually do so."

You were saying something about the rules?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

"You just met my ignore list. A special place reserved for people such as yourself."

More like a special place for the precious bubble people who can't debate or withstand criticism.

Good riddance.

[inthebrain]

138. It's also against the rrules to use the groups section

to bash other posters.

[Eurobabe]

140. if you don't like it, don't go there.

:hi:

Another one for the ignore list. :eyes:

[inthebrain]

142. Oh, now I get it

Everyone else is supposed to respect the rules but you. When they don't you run to the mods and flag the threads.

I know of another group that acted like this and I've had many a run ins with them. Some even went so far as to threaten my family.

BUSH SUPPORTERS.

Congrats. You've become everything you claim to oppose.

[Think82]

60. others who didnt apply probably knew...

they wouldn't come close to getting it. Of course, I'm only guessing, but Im sur eif you had a pretty bad record you wouldn't bother to apply?

[inthebrain]

62. I'd like to know how the Bankruptcy Bill is good for people with families.

or having their kids killed overseas.

But whatever.

Eitherway, it's really hard to claim someone is "the best" when he has to share an award with 24 out of fifty applicants.

I also have to wonder if anyone in congress really gave a damn about this award.

[Think82]

70. The amendment...

... made sure that single mothers would be paid before the credit card companies if she was expecting alimony a deadbeat dad who went bankrupt...

[inthebrain]

71. more centration

and it also made sure that everyone else was right fulky fucked. So much so that congress had to scramble to find a way to "save" those that lost their home in hurrican katrina. Just screw all those that can't be who also lost their homes as a result of good ole Joe's votes on trade agreements.

The same trade agreements that he staunchly supports and thinks they just need some "tweaking".

Yeah, that'll sell in shaker heights. Good ole Joe was also one of the senators responsiblre for fucking over the Unions in the NAFTA vote.

Yeah, keep selling the Bankrutpcy Bill is about single moms. As if anyone is stupid enough to fall for that. Joe fought EVERY SINGLE amendment to that bill put forth by his own party to protect other vulnerable segments of the population.

[Think82]

73. like I said...

I disagree with his vote on that, BUT it was going to pass anyway.

Beyond that, I'm guessing I'm more of a moderate pragmatic dem than you are... Fair enough. Just different views.

[inthebrain]

79. Oh wquit acting like Biden was some innocent bystander on the issue

especially if you dissagreed with the vote. He fought every worker protection introduced into that bill by his fellow senators.

And if he calims to have voted for this bill because it protects single moms, that's not pragmatic, that's just plain stupid. If he's so concerned about working moms he could have voted down this turkey and introduce that as a single piece of legislation.

[Think82]

85. How can you as 1 senator vote down a bill that passed 74-25?

just wondering.

[inthebrain]

88. Sorry, but your rationale is abusrd to say the least

It's real easy, you check the "nay" box. Then the bill passes 73-36. But I suppose he and all the other senators voted for it using that rational.

ANd Biden didn't just vote for it.

But I've repeated myself on that enough where it should be perfectly clear to you.

[gateley]

99. I don't think the Bankruptcy Bill is good for families.

I hate the Bill, and I hate that Biden voted for it.

[Alexander]

43. Biden is a pro-MBNA Drug Warrior and a reflexive gun-grabber.

You might want to check out his record before you go boasting about meaningless awards.

[Think82]

44. Violence Against Women Act, Crime Bill, Environmental legislation, Pakistani Aid, AIDS, Bosnia...

The list goes on. I am familiar with his record. You and inthebrain are extreme and always come on here to bash Joe Biden, who is a solid democrat with a long commendable record. I don't know where this hatred comes from, but I'd like to know if you are actually republican freepers or communist fanatics. There might have a couple votes you don't agree with, but I would look at the totality of the man's record and not inflating importance of votes you don't like on bills Biden did not write/sponsor (i know he might have sponsored the drug czar court... not too familar)

[inthebrain]

52. How bout

THe Bankruptcy Bill

Iraq War Resolution

China Trade

Welfare to Work (Which awards tax breaks for Wal Mart when they hire an ex Welfare Recipient)

His support for an overbloated Millitary budget that more that ten times the next country on the list.

His voted to ban DNX's and other resolutiuons that create more red tape for people that have to undergo this life saving procedure.

Oh, there's a lot there to suggest this guy shouild not be a VP or in ANY cabinet position. Even his foreign policy "expertise" doesn't really exist when you really take a good look at how many people in the CIA and UN called Bush on his WMD claims.

[Alexander]

53. That's nice. Many other Democrats have better records than he does.

"Crime Bill"

You mean the bill he championed, which included the disastrous Assault Weapons Ban (which doesn't actually ban assault weapons)?

Yeah, that was brilliant legislation. So brilliant it lost 1994 for us. :eyes:

"The list goes on. I am familiar with his record."

Apparently not, since you whitewash and ignore the parts of his record that make him look bad.

"You and inthebrain are extreme and always come on here to bash Joe Biden, who is a solid democrat with a long commendable record."

Wow, you must be some kind of psychic, to figure out someone's motivation after 900-odd posts. :eyes:

"don't know where this hatred comes from,"

Hey genius, I don't hate Biden. I've said time and again he belongs in Obama's Cabinet.

However his domestic agenda, IMHO, is awful.

If Biden is such a good Senator, or if you were a better debater, you'd be able to defend Biden without accusing others of "hate" - which is a Republican tactic.

"but I'd like to know if you are actually republican freepers"

Against the rules. Don't be surprised if your post is deleted.

"or communist fanatics."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Okay, Joe Mccarthy.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

"There might have a couple votes you don't agree with,"

There are more than a couple, buddy.

"but I would look at the totality of the man's record and not inflating importance of votes you don't like on bills Biden did not write/sponsor"

I have said time and again, Biden is just fine on foreign policy. I want him in Obama's Cabinet.

Yet you ignore this just so you can bash me and pretend I'm a "hater". :eyes:

His domestic agenda, however, is not even close to what I would like from a Democrat.

"(i know he might have sponsored the drug czar court... not too familar)"

Again you have admitted that you don't know what you're talking about. This destroys your credibility.

Here's some helpful advice, so you don't get your ass kicked in future debates.

Don't talk about shit you aren't really familiar with.

It makes you look foolish, it's a waste of everyone's time and it results in people not taking you seriously.

Mmkay?

[Think82]

69. Oh! So...

BIDEN is to blame for us losing congress in 94! :wtf: illegal codesmilie_remote(':wtf:') I almost forgot! By the way, the Crime Bill worked and pbrought down crime significantly, until the funding was scrapped by Bush.

also, you don't exactly go into detail yourself on these issues. You just kinda throw the words "drug czar" and IWR, and "China trade" and don't go into any nuance or specifics, yourself. I know details of these issues I just work during the day and don't have a lot of time to write out long posts (except for this one, which will be my longest, probably).I come on here only for a few minutes at a time.

On Iraq, I will say that Biden has been one of the best in leading the effort to resposibly getting us out of iraq, including his 3-region compromise that was endorsed by a very divided congress bush refused to employ.

Also Voting for the IWR is not the same as going to war, when there was a lot of faulty intelligence. Biden's vote of "yea" was made to establish leverage for the president to get inspectors in there. It was a reluctant vote, and Bush gave him a personal guarantee he would let the un iin if Biden gave him a yea vote because of his stature in the senate.

Biden and Lugar also passed an amendmenton the IWR that would require Bush to go to the UN before using force that was struck down in congress.

Biden also held hearings in the months between the resolution and the invasion , warning we would be committing to a decade if we went into iraq, and warned we were not prepared for the aftermath.

So, there is a vast difference between on man's IWR vote and another more hawkish IWR vote IMHO.

I dont agree with Biden's Bankruptcy bill vote... I believe thats a delaware thing. Sometimes senators need to represent the interests of their state on certain issues even if it goes against their own beliefs, which I believe was the case in that instance. He was able to work in an amendment to help single mothers in that vote, which was fgoing to pass anyway... he also did not sponsor that bill.

It's also funny that even though you claim that Biden is what is wrong with the party you still would love him in the cabinet... Even the biden-bashers want him involved in the next administration!.. that should say something.

Also, that communist/republican freeper stuff was a joke. Get a sense of humor, dude.

I'm done with this conversation... back to work.

[Alexander]

75. Yeah, you got nothing. Thanks for admitting it, though.

"BIDEN is to blame for us losing congress in 94!"

I never said that, but please keep pushing that straw man - it makes you look stupid.

"By the way, the Crime Bill worked and pbrought down crime significantly, until the funding was scrapped by Bush."

The Assault Weapons Ban is different from the entire bill.

Another case where you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Here's some more advice, buddy: Quit while you're behind.

"also, you don't exactly go into detail yourself on these issues. You just kinda throw the words "drug czar" and IWR, and "China trade" and don't go into any nuance or specifics, yourself."

You have me confused with another DUer. Again you have made a complete fool of yourself.

""On Iraq, I will say that Biden has been one of the best in leading the effort to resposibly getting us out of iraq, including his 3-region compromise that was endorsed by a very divided congress bush refused to employ."

I never said he didn't. How's that straw man working out for you?

"Also Voting for the IWR is not the same as going to war, when there was a lot of faulty intelligence. Biden's vote of "yea" was made to establish leverage for the president to get inspectors in there. It was a reluctant vote, and Bush gave him a personal guarantee he would let the un iin if Biden gave him a yea vote because of his stature in the senate."

BULL. FUCKING. SHIT.

We all know that the IWR was titled "Authorization for War with Iraq".

Don't try to peddle your shit here. It's not working.

"Biden and Lugar also passed an amendmenton the IWR that would require Bush to go to the UN before using force that was struck down in congress."

Good for him. I'll give him credit for that. But he should have voted against the IWR as well.

"Biden also held hearings in the months between the resolution and the invasion , warning we would be committing to a decade if we went into iraq, and warned we were not prepared for the aftermath."

So he voted for the IWR, knowing it was a bad idea, to save his own ass.

Thanks. You've caused my opinion of Biden to drop significantly. Are you trying to help him, or what?

"I dont agree with Biden's Bankruptcy bill vote... I believe thats a delaware thing."

Yes, like Tom Daschle being literally in bed with credit card lobbyists was a "South Dakota thing".

You're either supportive of lobbyists or not. Biden and Daschle are. Case closed.

"It's also funny that even though you claim that Biden is what is wrong with the party you still would love him in the cabinet... Even the biden-bashers want him involved in the next administration!.. that should say something."

Again you have me confused with someone else.

Again you don't read my posts, you just create straw men for your own bullshit pro-Biden propaganda.

Learn. To. Read.

"Also, that communist/republican freeper stuff was a joke. Get a sense of humor, dude."

Your sense of "humor" is identical to that of the Republicans. Hmm....

[Think82]

81. Dude. I think you have some anger issues.

Sorry to confuse you with that other Biden-basher itb. I get you two confused sometimes.

Anyway... there's little or no more details or substance behind your arguments, so I'm just going to stop responding now. If you want to get a last word in, I'll concede it. I've got no more time to waste on you.

I do want to address this before I go: "You're either supportive of lobbyists or not. Biden and Daschle are. Case closed."

- Biden wrote the first public financing bill in 1972 to get rid of the influence of lobbyists. It obviously did not pass, but he has been for getting rid of lobbyist influence is whole career. Plus,the credit card companies are all based in Biden's state, not in SD...it's not a lobby. It's delaware's economic interests.

[inthebrain]

83. That's funny, cause he's a total hypocrit

He gets his money from MBNA and his son was offered a position with that company.

Yeah, Biden would never allow his palm to be greased.

Sorry, I just don't fall for lame excuses and spin from politicains. I suppose thinking for youself means you have an "anger issue".

[Muttocracy]

47. by gun-grabber do you mean

pro-war or pro-gun-control?

For gun control, what are the differences between Biden and Obama on it?

[Alexander]

56. I mean he supports the AWB, which is a total crock of shit.

And no, I don't agree with Obama on guns either, but I agree with him on so many other issues that it's moot.

"For gun control, what are the differences between Biden and Obama on it?"

There aren't any. Both hold positions on gun control that differ from mine.

However, I agree with Obama on a lot more issues than I do Biden. I'm not crazy about Biden's RAVE Act, the Drug Czar position he created, his patronizing attitude towards Anita Hill or his vote for MBNA.

That being said, I think Biden would be excellent in Obama's Cabinet.

Biden's clearly on our side, even if I disagree with him on many issues.

And I hope you and I can respectfully disagree on Biden, instead of certain other posters who like to label people "haters" for criticizing their idol.

[Muttocracy]

68. thanks - I did some searching for it and wasn't finding much.

Gun control isn't one of my big issues (would probably never be the deciding factor for me between two candidates anyway) so I don't know that much about it. I was reading these and it reminded me from the debate questions that Biden is or was a gun owner at some point, though I don't know anything about that.

http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/Joe_Biden_Gun_Control.htm
http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_Obama_Gun_Control.htm

It's hard for me to compare their records since they don't overlap on very many Senate votes.

Drug policy is similar to me (not one of my big issues, mixed feelings) Biden has been working on some reforms to drug laws (e.g., getting rid of the big crack/powder cocaine distinctions, more funding for addiction treatment), but he's certainly on a particular end of that spectrum.

So is it that you'd support him being Sec of State or Sec of Defense or NSA or something primarily foreign policy? I think some of your posts or subject lines may have come across to people quite different than "Biden's clearly on our side".

[gateley]

100. What's the AWB, Alexander? (Or will I be sorry I asked?) nt

[Muttocracy]

101. assault weapons ban I think. nt

[gateley]

103. Thanks.

I don't know enough (anything, actually) about it to comment, but my gut feeling is that "assault weapons" shouldn't be available to a citizenry.

[Alexander]

128. Yes, AWB = Assault Weapons Ban.

"I don't know enough (anything, actually) about it to comment, but my gut feeling is that "assault weapons" shouldn't be available to a citizenry."

That's everyone's gut feeling, which is why they named it that.

Kind of like the "USA PATRIOT Act".

In reality, the bill doesn't ban assault weapons - most of which were illegal since the 1930s - it instead bans scopes, bayonets and pistol grips.

Now you know.

[Carolina]

114. totally agree

plus he's beholden to blood sucking credit card companies and Delaware adds zip, electorally. Dems will win there anyway.

[Eurobabe]

121. I think this has been debunked already, he's no more beholden

than many other Dems. IIRC, he's less in their pockets. Give me a minute to find the source and put this to rest.

Nice try though. :hi:

[PatSeg]

122. It has been addressed more times than I can count

Biden is the 2nd poorest Senator, so he ain't in it for the money. He's not in anyone's pocket, but he's been in the Senate a long time, as such it is inevitable that he would have some unpopular votes.

[Carolina]

136. But he still voted for IWR

which goes against what Obama stands for and counters all his alleged foreign policy credentials. Nice try!

He's also a Sunday morning bloviator who likes to hear himself talk and talk and talk :puke:

And all he'll bring is Delaware... big woo! Dems will win there WITHOUT Joe.

[inthebrain]

143. ANd Del will just run another Credit Card hokey to take his place

Then we get stuck with one as VP and ANOTHER in the senate.

[Eurobabe]

120. Opinions are like assholes everyone has them

Thanks for yours though. :hi:

[Alexander]

130. Too bad you can't tolerate the opinions of others when they are critical of your idol.

Thanks for your fact-free diatribes, though.

[Steely_Dan]

34. Biden would have made an excellent President...n/t

[CrispyQ]

40. Most Excellent!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Muttocracy]

41. ...

:hi:

[nsd]

48. Agreed. n/t

[Alexander]

63. Disagree. And I think that Steely Dan, the band, really sucks.

I hope you did not name yourself after those clowns.

[gateley]

96. Seriously, Alexander -- now I understand why we never have been able

to really get along (despite our Biden differences). Not like Steely Dan? Our taste in music says something about us, and I really like them, you think they suck, so that says we are REALLY different people.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alexander]

134. What do you offer, besides Biden worship?

Please, enlighten us.

"I've already alerted on him."

"Do not say that you are hitting the alert link to report another member. You are permitted to tell someone that you are adding them to your ignore list, provided that you actually do so."

You were saying something about the rules?

[Alexander]

132. Whatever - they are one band. I listen to hundreds of different musicians.

If someone is so attached to one band that they can't accept criticism, that's not my problem.

"Our taste in music says something about us, and I really like them, you think they suck, so that says we are REALLY different people."

Yeah, I don't like Muzak. What's the big deal? :shrug:

[Muttocracy]

113. you remind me a lot of someone I know who owns this shirt:

http://store.theonion.com/your-favorite-band-sucks-p-78.html

[Alexander]

133. I like a lot of peoples' different bands. Just not Steely Dan.

If you listen to any other musicians, chances are I probably like them.

At least try to be open-minded about this.

[Muttocracy]

137. my friend who had that shirt

was also a fan of Wellstone and Feingold, had very strong opinions about music and politics, and lived in Arizona at one point. The shirt was his way of poking fun at himself for criticizing others' music. That's all.

[jillan]

108. Hey you!

Good to see you :)

[PatSeg]

123. Hey there!

You are missed. Drop by and say "Hi" now and then. :hi:

[maui9002]

49. Respectfully have to disagree

While those of us who keep up with politics know that Senator Biden is experienced on foreign affairs matters and a fine Senator, I don't think most Americans who will vote in the election see Biden in that way: what they see is another multiple term, East coast liberal Senator who likes to talk about himself. In short, I see Biden as someone who won't do much good (in terms of helping Obama get elected) but who could easily do much harm (tendency to talk too much, doesn't relate to the mystical "average American voter" (note how poorly he's performed in past presidential primaries, including the most recent one), and is subject to any number of Republican attacks for statements he's made in the past and that plagiarism thing (an unfair charge in my view, but that's never stopped Republicans before). Plus, I'd stay away from Senators because (1) Obama is a Senator and (2) we don't want to remove any more Democrats from the U.S. Senate.

If Obama is serious about foreign policy expertise and military acumen, I think Wes Clark is a better choice.

If Obama wants someone whose main attraction is helping him win the election, he should stick with someone like Bayh or Kaine; if he wants to add some pizazz and is willing to take a risk, he should select Brian Schweitzer, Governor of Montana. Schweitzer, although relatively unknown, is one of the most popular, if not the most popular, governors in the U.S. He sounds and even looks a little bit like Ed Schultz. He's a no-nonsense guy who's funny and relates well to farmers (he has a ranching and farming background and has worked for the USDA), has a common man touch (I think he'd be the perfect antidote to Obama in states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia), is developing a strong resume on energy policy(at least in Montana), lived and worked (for seven years) in Libya and Saudi Arabia, and speaks fluent Arabic. Frankly, I think he's the perfect choice; while he doesn't have the foreign policy experience of someone like Joe Biden or Wes Clark , either of those two could be great additions to an Obama/Schweitzer ticket as Secretary of State/Secretary of Defense.

[Zhade]

50. Seriously, have people forgotten he co-signed a PNAC statement???

NT!

[Alexander]

59. No. Some pro-Biden fanatics just like to ignore that stuff.

Because it makes him look bad, you see.

[inthebrain]

65. And here I thought I was blinded by hate nt

[Muttocracy]

82. which PNAC document are you referring to? (see my reply below to other post)

[Zhade]

116. LINK TO THE DOCUMENT (PDF)

http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/press_release/pr_238.pdf

Page 2.

Feinstein too.

[Muttocracy]

117. thanks - I think that's the one in the table I mentioned below. nt

[Muttocracy]

118. ok, I read through that quickly - which parts of it do you disagree with

in terms of the content?

"As citizens of the Euro-Atlantic community of democracies, we wish to express our sympathy
and solidarity with the people of the Russian Federation in their struggle against terrorism.
The mass murderers who seized School No. 1 in Beslan committed a heinous act of terrorism
for which there can be no rationale or excuse. While other mass murderers have killed
children and unarmed civilians, the calculated targeting of so many innocent children at
school is an unprecedented act of barbarism that violates the values and norms of our
community and which all civilized nations must condemn.
At the same time, we are deeply concerned that these tragic events are being used to further
undermine democracy in Russia. Russia’s democratic institutions have always been weak and
fragile. Since becoming President in January 2000, Vladimir Putin has made them even
weaker. He has systematically undercut the freedom and independence of the press,
destroyed the checks and balances in the Russian federal system, arbitrarily imprisoned both
real and imagined political rivals, removed legitimate candidates from electoral ballots,
harassed and arrested NGO leaders, and weakened Russia’s political parties. In the wake of
the horrific crime in Beslan, President Putin has announced plans to further centralize power
and to push through measures that will take Russia a step closer to authoritarian regime.
We are also worried about the deteriorating conduct of Russia in its foreign relations.
President Putin’s foreign policy is increasingly marked by a threatening attitude towards
Russia’s neighbors and Europe’s energy security, the return of rhetoric of militarism and
empire, and by a refusal to comply with Russia’s international treaty obligations. In all
aspects of Russian political life, the instruments of state power appear to be being rebuilt and
the dominance of the security services to grow. We believe that this conduct cannot be
accepted as the foundation of a true partnership between Russia and the democracies of
NATO and the European Union.
These moves are only the latest evidence that the present Russian leadership is breaking away
from the core democratic values of the Euro-Atlantic community. All too often in the past,
the West has remained silent and restrained its criticism in the belief that President Putin’s
steps in the wrong direction were temporary and the hope that Russia would soon return to a
democratic and pro-Western path. Western leaders continue to embrace President Putin in the
face of growing evidence that the country is moving in the wrong direction and that his
strategy for fighting terrorism is producing less and less freedom. We firmly believe
dictatorship will not and cannot be the answer to Russia’s problems and the very real threats it
faces.
The leaders of the West must recognize that our current strategy towards Russia is failing.
Our policies have failed to contribute to the democratic Russia we wished for and the people
of this great country deserve after all the suffering they have endured. It is time for us to
rethink how and to what extent we engage with Putin’s Russia and to put ourselves
unambiguously on the side of democratic forces in Russia. At this critical time in history
when the West is pushing for democratic change around the world, including in the broader
Middle East, it is imperative that we do not look the other way in assessing Moscow’s
behaviour or create a double standard for democracy in the countries which lie to Europe’s
East. We must speak the truth about what is happening in Russia. We owe it to the victims of
Beslan and the tens of thousands of Russian democrats who are still fighting to preserve
democracy and human freedom in their country."

[gateley]

89. You don't speak for us, Alexander. We are fully aware of these issues.

We also see the good he's done and the wisdom he brings. We look at the big picture, not focusing on a couple of issues which some people can't just seem to get beyond.

[inthebrain]

95. I don't thik he's pretending to speak for you

I think it sad that this guy has supported and fought for so much garbage and you play it off as a glass half empty and a glass half full game.

Bidens bad decisions have real world consequences. They've cost people their sons, daughters, parents, friends, lives, homes and jobs.

He's a horrible representative of a party that's "supposed to stand for the rights of working people". Hard time playing that as those very same working people are losing their jobs and homes as a result of Bidens votes and zelous support for turkey legislation.

Biden represents EVERYTHING that is wrong with the Democratic party.

It really puzzles me why you folks not only support this guy but totally kiss his ass.

[gateley]

97. Oh - so you're speaking for Alexander now? How apt.

inthebrain - we have strong opposing opinions about Biden as we both/all know. We don't kiss his ass, we think very highly of him. We see a lot there that you don't - it's nothing more than that. Like not being able to see what your best friend sees in their partner.

[inthebrain]

102. Oh you do

And everyone you have dissagreement with on the subject (well not really everyone but those with strong dissagreement) you run off to your hidey hole in the Biden group and cut them up behind their backs.

Oh, and you guys really do kiss his ass. It ain't just the stuff you post here. It's the stuff you post in Biden group on other topics and how you all organize against others. Not to mention playing as if you're the victims in a personal sense.

ANd on choosing candidates, maybe you should try and differ from your Bush counterparts. People that are capabable of critical thinking don't operate on faith when choosing candidates. That is, seeing something more there (which is really just operating on faith) without being able to proove what really is their.

Not to mention creating a dichotomy (options A @ B) whereas the people dissagreeing and factually pointing out that there are better options.

There's a lot of Turkeys working in congress. A LOT OF THEM. Unfortunatly Joe Biden is a strong member of the group of turkeys working there.

[gateley]

104. Okay, inthebrain.

I must say we don't run to other message boards and post your comments from here to make fun of you -- as you did with ours.

Anyway, I'm done. I respect your right to have your opinions regarding Biden and me. I just don't agree.

[Muttocracy]

77. which one - the one x in his line in this big table?

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/pnac_chart/pnac.html

[Muttocracy]

87. or this part where he condemns PNAC?

Almost 10 years after the draft DPG was rejected, George W. Bush entered the White House and shortly thereafter was confronted with the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Following the attacks, as the White House-led campaign to invade Iraq began to gain steam, many commentators began noting striking similarities between ideas emanating from the George W. Bush administration about its “war on terror” strategy and the ideas promoted by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), a neoconservative-led pressure group created in 1997 to push a “Reaganite” U.S. foreign policy in the post-Cold War world. One of the first to report on this was Jim Lobe of the Inter Press Service (IPS), who in a December 2001 IPS article pointed out that the authors of the draft DPG were ensconced in the George W. Bush administration. Lobe reported that, “When he saw it shortly after the Gulf War ten years ago, Democratic Senator Joseph Biden, now chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, denounced it as a prescription for ‘literally a Pax Americana.’ The past, as is said, is prologue. At the time, Biden referred to a document by two relatively obscure political appointees at the Pentagon charged with drafting plans for U.S. defense strategy over the following decade. The authors now are back in key positions and their vision appears to be reviving.”

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1571.html

[Carolina]

115. EXACTLY!

and voted for IWR and the bankruptcy bill, is beholden to credit card companies...

Sheesh, he adds nothing but hot air to the campaign.

[Muttocracy]

119. which part of that letter posted above do you disagree with? nt

[dansolo]

55. It will absolutely NOT be Biden

Obama is running on Judgment vs., Experience. How can he pick Biden, based on his foreign policy experience, when Biden's vote for the IWR completely nullifies his whole "judgment" argument our of the water? Picking Biden would he a mistake of monumental proportions. And that doesn't even get into Biden's ties into the financial industry, which won't look good with the credit crunch that is occurring right now.

[Motown_Johnny]

58. Isn't Ridge pro choice? I don't think he can be the Repug VP. Plus there are other Dems with similar

foreign policy credibility as Joe.

Clark for one, Richardson for another.

The two Senator ticket may be problematic.



That said, Joe Biden would make a great VP.

[Orsino]

64. Casting a tie-breaking vote in the Senate on the repeal of Bankruptcy Reform?

I don't think so.

[babylonsister]

86. John Nichols/The Nation is coming to that conclusion, too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6626321&mesg_id=6626321

[DCBob]

91. Biden would be great but ...

I would prefer Clark or Feingold. Quite a contrast, I know, but they both offer distinctive advantages that will benefit Obama big time. Too bad there can't be two or even three VPs!

[Muttocracy]

93. honestly, we need about 5 Ps & VPs to clean up the mess!

Clark or Feingold would be great choices. Biden and Schweitzer also.

[DCBob]

98. Indeed.

But whoever Obama chooses I will be fine with it -- I trust his judgment.

[PatSeg]

94. For all the naysayers here

I am quite certain that nothing any of us say at this point will make a difference. I am sure that Obama has already made his choice and that person has agreed. No point in wasting so much energy putting down Biden. Surely you can find a more constructive way to expend energy.

[inthebrain]

105. Perhaps you should take your own advice

Given that members of the Bidenites use the Joe Biden group to orchestrate attacks on members that dissagree with them. Not to mention use it to trash posters behind their backs and orchestrate the flagging of threads/posts.

Perhaps you have a better outet to expend all that energy.

As for me voicing my agreement, it's within the board rules to discuss. Last I checked, we are free to talk about what we want as long as it's within the rules. Something that your activities in the Biden Group is not protected by. Not that I activly flag the posts or go to the mods over it.

Please don't tell others what to do.

[jillan]

107. Copying and posting threads from the the Biden group and posting

them on another website lately?

[inthebrain]

109. Oh, you mean the ones

Where you bashing posters in the Biden group?

Or orchestrating the flagging of threads because someone voiced dissagreement against your demagogue?

Or how about posts about members of the Biden Group stalking posters to other sites?

You mean those posts which a lot of people allegedly had a good chuckle about?

I didn't see a rule on DU against doing that.

I'm totally unaware of the incident.

Wanna dime the poster who did that to the mods?

[saltpoint]

106. Happily we have the deep veep bench. McCain has none such.

I count Biden among the likely names on the short list.

He would be an outstanding vice president -- effective on many issues and fiercely loyal to a President Obama as well.

[gateley]

110. You're so right --

As dicey as it is to try to select the VP who will bring in voters, McCain's got it even worse. Too young, it magnifies the age difference and McCain looks OLD. Too old, the two of them together look like Grumpy Old Men. Just right in the middle, again, the contrast will make McCain seem weak and ancient. He's screwn,. :7

[saltpoint]

111. LOL! He is screwn indeed.

I've been batting around McCain's choices and they pretty much all take away from his candidacy.

The ones who most want the GOP veep nod are problem candidates for McCain. Romney is sheer ego on wheels. He's drooling for the job. That's almost always a bad sign. McCain may be pressured to choose Romney, but I doubt if he wants to.

I think Fiorina is out of the question. A failed CEO chosen during an autumn of 4.00 gas just isn't going to fly. The shadow of Enron, too, looms over the electin.

Pawlenty, I guess, is the default frontrunner. But god what a bore. I think Tim Pawlenty works part-time as the congtrol group at one of those places where they do sleep studies.

Ridge would help a bit in Pennsylvania, but maybe not enough in 2008 to off-set Obama's momentum, plus Ridge and Lieberman would suppress the fundie vote elsewhere. McCain's already behind. He can't afford to lose more ground than he already has.

If he goes corporate, he might choose a dutiful boy scout like Rob Portman or just go whole-hog and pick Haley Barbour, and when I say hog, I mean HOG.

Condi Rice could come out of nowhere and ride the terra terra terra maverick express, but she's just not going to be acceptable to large parts of the base.

Huckabee, if he weren't a squirrely psychotic, might have been a good choice.

Powell would have been ok for McCain, except I think Powell's for Obama.

Tommy Franks is an option, but he likely knows better.

And I think John Thune would turn him down.

Maybe it will be George Allen or Jim Talent!

[Roxy66]

135. I agree....I really hope he picks Biden

[geiger]

141. oh, give me a break. it would be the ultimate sop to the Clinton campaign.

He would obviously keep an eye on for the Clintons, but he's a has-been, also.

[book_worm]

144. kick