WTF? "Obama's 'no income taxes on seniors' draws critics"

[Fleshdancer]

So before reading Obama's economic plan, they portray him as a "tax and spend" liberal. Once they realize that he wants to actually CUT taxes, they spin it as a subsidy? This article attempts to portray senior citizens making under $50K as living the high life. This is beyond stupid.

:wtf:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080811/D92GAVIO0.html

WASHINGTON (AP) - If you're a senior citizen and earn less than $50,000 a year, Barack Obama has a deal for you: a life free of federal income tax.

Sounds appealing, right? Maybe to many seniors. But tax policy experts in Washington are giving it bad reviews. They see it as another subsidy for senior citizens, who already get federal help through Social Security and Medicare and often have economic advantages over other demographic groups.

Seniors typically have paid off their mortgages, many have investments and usually don't pay taxes on their Social Security benefits. The kids are usually grown, so they're not saddled with day care or college costs.

"The odds are the retired folks - they're getting pensions, they're getting Social Security, they have investment assets, they own a house - so ... they're better off than somebody who is 30 or 40 years younger who's trying to buy a house (and) trying to start saving," said Clint Stretch, managing principal of tax policy for Deloitte Tax.


ON EDIT: Who still gets pensions??

[jody]

1. In some places, senior citizens earning < $50k are indeed living the high life compared to others. n

[Fleshdancer]

3. I'm more concerned with the welfare of the majority

some senior citizens also don't have the financial burden of expensive prescription drugs either, but that doesn't mean that most making under $50K is living the high life.

[jody]

18. "welfare of the majority"! OK so you are worried about more that 50% but how many seniors does that

include?

You focus on health care with your statement about prescription drugs.

Society has limited resources and there is no such thing as a free lunch but also there is not enough food for everyone to eat as much as they want.

For example, society must decide between giving a senior citizen open-heart surgery and using that money to treat several children.

So far society has not been willing to discuss such things.

As a side note, United States national median household income is about $48,023.

The mean income of a senior individual (age 65 or older) in the United States in 2004 was $23,926 so a senior citizen with $50k income has twice the mean.

The median income of a senior individual in 2004 was $21,102 for males and $12,080 for females with an overall median income of $15,193.

Seniors with $50k income are doing pretty good relative to other seniors.
:shrug:

[Yupster]

51. So if I have $ 2 million invested

would I still pay no taxes were I a senior.

There are lots of seniors with very large investment accounts who pay very little taxes because their money is in tax-efficient investment vehicles like IRA's, tax free bonds,non-qualified annuities, and life insurance policies.

Seniors are the wealthiest group of investors overall -- women especially since they are often widows.

[NorthCarolina]

52. Yes, because the interest income on 2 mil

would likely put you over the 50K mark, so in that case you would still pay Income Tax.

[DesertFlower]

2. federal help through social security

and medicare? programs that seniors paid into their entire working lives. give me a f----- break.

it can cost more money to live when you're retired. you lose tax breaks like participating in a 401k and a health care savings account. medicare and supplemental policies can cost much more than employer health care. you have more free time which can mean you spend more money. even if the mortgage is paid, there are still real estate taxes, home owners insurance, car insurance.

[NashVegas]

7. You Lose Your Tax Breaks, While You Move Into Subsidized Housing

Not a bad pay-off.

In TN, seniors making up to a certain level of income will never see a property tax increase.

[DesertFlower]

9. do you want to live in subsidized housing?

Jesus H. Christ.

here in arizona, there's no freeze on property taxes.

[NashVegas]

19. On Second Thought, This Is Brilliant

What a fantastic way to divide Republican voters.

[DesertFlower]

20. WTF are you talking about? nt

[AngryAmish]

54. There is a freeze in IL

[Jackpine Radical]

4. Let's look at some numbers...

Between 1959 and 1974, the elderly poverty rate fell from 35 percent to 15 percent. This was largely attributable to a set of increases in Social Security benefits. The elderly poverty rate has continued to decline in subsequent decades, reaching 9.4 percent in 2006. Social Security and Supplemental Security Income benefits continue to play a key role in reducing elderly poverty, especially among women and people of color. If Social Security benefits did not exist, an estimated 44 percent of the elderly would be poor today, assuming no changes in behavior.

Yet there is still work to do. Currently, 3.4 million seniors age 65 and older live below the poverty line. Millions more are barely making ends meet just above the poverty line. While 9.4 percent of seniors had incomes in 2006 below the poverty threshold of $9,669 for an individual, and $12,186 for a couple, nearly a quarter of older Americans (22.4 percent) had family incomes below 150 percent of the poverty line.

If we had a better measure of poverty, the elderly poverty rate would be considerably higher. The current poverty measure gives no consideration to health care costs, among other problems. High medical bills for the elderly can greatly reduce the income available to meet their other needs. New York City has recently calculated its poverty rates under an improved approach proposed by the National Academy of Sciences. Among other things, it takes into account how much money people have left to meet basic needs after paying for their medical costs. Under this measure, the elderly poverty rate in New York City would have been 32 percent in 2006, compared to 18 percent under the official measure.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/07/elderly_poverty.html

[DesertFlower]

5. my mom's ss amount was $726.

she had a little savings which she dipped into to pay her bills. she was divorced from my dad for 40 years, but because they were married 10 years she was entitled to survivor benefits when he died. she know gets $1056. it just about covers her rent and living costs. it also is considered too much money to give her free prescription coverage.

[NashVegas]

6. I Think There Are Too Many Loopholes

Like the one about the guy making $49k paying no taxes, and the guy making $51k paying plenty.

[Jackpine Radical]

8. I had sorta assumed that the taxes would be on the amount over $50k.

No?

[DesertFlower]

11. here's a link.

http://www.aarp.org/research/socialsecurity/benefits/aresearch-import-362-FS88.html

right now as a couple if you make more than $32,000 you are taxed on your SS benefits.

[Cleita]

10. We used to not pay taxes on SS because SS is already taxed once.

So now if you make too much income they tax half of it and believe me that extra income is a small amount not a large amount. I think if we went back to not taxing SS at all it would be a big help to seniors who are on the hump so to speak with maybe a few thousand dollars a year too much income that raises their SS taxable income considerably. But the RW don't even want to make that concession.

Also, many seniors are able to maintain middle class lives because of the help they get from SS and Medicare. Also being on a fixed income does not give you a hedge against inflation, which is something that is causing many of us to be slipping away into proverty. If they want to tax us like everyone else, the majority of seniors won't be able to make ends meet. We are at an age when we can't start over. I wish these heartless people would realize that.

[DesertFlower]

21. but, but, but

seniors have it so good. :sarcasm:

i collected SSDI for 15 years before i reached my full retirment age. i pay tax on 85% of it.

[Cleita]

30. 85% of what? The SSDI or SS?

You shouldn't be paying any tax on the SS unless you have additional income that pushes you over the allowed amount of extra income and not have half of your SS be deemed taxable. I usually don't pay any taxes because my income including SS is so low, but sometimes I get extra windfalls and it boosts me over that low income amount and all of a sudden half my SS is taxed as well.

[DesertFlower]

32. i paid 85% paid on both.

my husband still works.

[Cleita]

38. Oh I see what you mean.

Yeah, they have no problem taxing you and it's a crime because SS is already taxed. It shouldn't be taxed twice.

[Thothmes]

12. Who gets to make up the loss of tax revenue if this

program is implemented.

[blondeatlast]

13. Why don't you look into it yourself and then post something, ANYTHING

showing you support Obama?

[Thothmes]

25. The fact I will vote for the man is support enough

I would benefit from the program if implimented. That is not the question. If taxes are reduce for one group, taxes have to be made up from some other group or cuts in programs. IMO Ending the war in Iraq will not give the govt 100s of billions of dollars to spend. All it will do is end the necessity to borrow that money from the Chinese. What has Obama proposed as far a making up the loss of tax revenue?

[Fleshdancer]

15. I'll take End the War in Iraq for $500 Alex

or perhaps the roll back of tax cuts to the top 1%.

[DeeDeeNY]

16. How about this?

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home

[Cleita]

31. How about rich people who won't miss the extra taxes instead of

old people on fixed incomes who are scraping by? Could that work?

[Radical Activist]

14. They're the wealthiest and most subsidized age group.

The article has a point. I think there are higher priorities, like making it possible to get a college degree without a loan the size of a mortgage.

[Fleshdancer]

17. but we're only talking about the portion of the group that makes less than $50K

and the article makes a lot of assumptions with paid off mortgages and investments while ignoring increased costs on medicine and cost of living while on a fixed income.

[Radical Activist]

22. A lot of 20 somethings with kids don't make $50,000.

There are programs for seniors who need prescriptions but if you have a serious condition as a young person without insurance (those new to the work force are most likely to not have insurance) then you're SOL.

Politicians have been pandering for votes from seniors for the last 20 years or more and it shows in what they already get. Time to start thinking about everyone, not just the age group who votes the most.

[DesertFlower]

26. do you know how low

your income has to be to get prescription drug help?

[Radical Activist]

28. Since I haven't had prescription drug coverage for 10 years

despite the fact that I should be taking them monthly, no, I don't how little I would have to make to qualify. But I bet I would have qualified at some point during the last ten years if I had been old enough.

We should be talking about prescription drugs for all, not just seniors. That's one reason why young people were so turned off to the Democratic Party until more recently.

[DesertFlower]

34. so because you don't have drug coverage

and you have student loans, you're angry at seniors.


BTW. when you've paid into the system for 40-50 years, you'll be happy to get your social security. of course, you could become disabled and get it now. would you rather that happen? you'd get medicare too.

[DesertFlower]

23. i'm almost 67. in no way do i feel

subsidized. my husband still works.

my mom gets $1056 a month after the medicare is deducted. it's too much to qualify her for prescription drugs. do you think she's highly subsidized?

[Radical Activist]

29. Only $1056?

Wow. Let me see how that compares to what I get from the government for doing nothing. Let's see, I get...nothing. I'm still paying money to the government in student loans and will be for a very long time. I'd happily live off $1,000 a month.

[DesertFlower]

33. my mom and my dad both

worked and paid into the system.

what i'm trying to point out is that many senior citizens are just getting by.

at least you got an education. stop whining.

[Radical Activist]

42. Oh yeah.

When seniors ask for benefits beyond what anyone else is getting, while being the wealthiest age group per capita, they're entitled to what they earned. But if young people ask for half as much they're just a bunch if "whiny" kids. Why are you angry at young people?

[DesertFlower]

44. i have nieces and nephews in their

20s. i have no problem with young people. i do have a problem with whiners.

that's all i have to say on this subject.

[Radical Activist]

45. Then you must be really sick

of hearing seniors whine about how they need more prescription drugs and health care in every election. On and on.

The Clinton era party made a big mistake when it decided it was going to start pandering to seniors while ignoring others. Targeting specific groups with little poll tested proposals may get a candidate through the next election, but in the long run it divides people against eachother. The fact that the Democratic Party talked constantly about prescription drugs only "for seniors" and social security for years was a slap in the face to every young person who needed medicine they couldn't afford, or who was working two jobs at college while taking out huge loans and paying a large amount of their income in payroll taxes. Every time I had an asthma attack because I couldn't afford medicine, or a doctor's visit to get a prescription, and then heard Gore (or any other Democrat around '96-'02) talk about prescription drugs "for seniors" while ignoring everyone else I wanted to tell Al to go fuck himself. Seniors shouldn't ask for benefits beyond what everyone else gets and the party shouldn't divide people.

[DesertFlower]

46. i've never heard any senior whine.

my mom is not eligible for free prescription drugs because her ss is 1056. she has to pay for her own. don't be fooled by the medicare prescription drug plans. they are not free unless you're really poor. you buy an insurance policy to cover the drugs.

i'm sorry that you can't afford your meds. it shouldn't be this way. we need single payer universal health care (HR 676 which is medicare for all). obama is wrong on his health insurance plan and so was hillary. the only one who got it right was kucinich. i think the politicians are afraid to push for it because some people fear "socialized" medicine or anything that uses the word "socialized".

did you know that long term care is not covered by any insurance plans or medicare? you have to buy a separate policy and if you have a pre-existing condition as you and i both do, we cannot get a policy. fortunately we got a policy on my husband.

i sincerely hope things get better for you.

[Radical Activist]

48. Thanks

I'm in a better situation now than I was then. But it still irritates me when I see party leaders pander to one group because they vote more often instead of standing up for everyone. Hopefully we've reached the point where we're arguing for prescription drugs and health care for seniors, and everyone else too.

[DesertFlower]

49. i agree. nt

[murbley40]

56. Wow.

You are paying student loans for which you are getting or have gotten an education. She is getting 1056.00 a month managed by the government,not GIVEN by the government;she worked her entire life and payed far more than that into the Social Security Pension system. And by the way, the taxes on her earnings helped provide those student loans that you speak of. If you think you can live reasonably on 1000.00 dollars a month, you are delusion able. You could not pay rent, utilities,
and eat for 1000.00 a month,never mind pay student loans.
I am 68 years old and I have worked since I was 16 years old and paid into the Social Security system, I get 840.00 dollars a month and my husband gets $1200.00. I continue to work because my company(I am fortunate) provides health care insurance and I have had cancer twice and with only Medicare I would not have been able to get the excellent treatment that I did. Many physicians no longer accept Medicare.
I also need the money to pay Utilities, taxes on the very modest home my husband and I worked and scrimped to pay for and maintain my home,auto insurance,(I need my car,) I live in a rural area,and to buy gasoline to get to the doctor, the grocery store and the drug store to pick up my husband's and my prescriptions totaling 900.00 a month and to buy gasoline to get to work to pay for
all of the above.
And that Medicare prescription insurance you speak of is a living nightmare!! You have to in a lot of cases buy other insurance to cover the inadequacies of it. You do not have a clue,what it is like for us. We are people for the most part, who have worked hard, sacrificed for our families,gone without luxuries for our families and most of all contributed positively to this country and all the advantages for your generation and now you want to make us feel like a bunch of free loaders.........well guess what, maybe by the time you are in our shoes
the younger folks will have found a way to dispose of Seniors, before they become a "drain" on "your" country's asserts.

[DesertFlower]

24. a college education should be

free. but that's another topic.

[democracy1st]

27. no surprise he gets blamed for drinking water ...next

[democrattotheend]

35. I have to agree, this is a pander

I don't see why seniors earning less than $50k should be treated any differently from other people making less than $50k. But non-seniors making less than $50k not only pay income tax, but pay payroll tax that will help subsidize tax-free status for seniors making over $50k. This is particularly unfair when you consider that non-seniors making less than $50k are more likely to have kids to support. Obama's proposal is certainly smart politics, since seniors are reliable voters, but as policy it does kind of suck.

[Jakes Progress]

36. Depending on the definition

of Senior Citizen, I can qualify. Why should what I make be taxed at any rate different than what someone else makes?

My $30K goes just as far as someone else's. My $200K (yeah, right) goes just as far as someone else's. People at every age level have advantages and disadvantages financially based on their age.

I guess this would be a ploy to get republican seniors then since no one is as greedy as republicans. Afraid this is just political pandering - same old thing. I hate to see it, but it is probably good politics. Nasty business, that.

[AtomicKitten]

37. I'll be fine with seniors making that decision for themselves.

I suspect not paying income tax for income $50K and under will sound pretty sweet to them.

I get this feeling the Republicans will FINALLY be exposed for the heartless bastards they really are this election.

[depakid]

39. Tax cuts are nice- but the REALITY is there's $482 billion deficit in fiscal year 2009.

NOT including ongoing operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[mbperrin]

40. Why not put the top corporate rate back at 70% where it was when

Reagan took office?

Either: companies will invest and actually create jobs to get the writeoffs, and the extra activity will generate more revenue; or we'll get the revenues from those too lazy or too unimaginative to keep their money working.

I paid Social Security taxes from 1969 until 1997, when I started teaching. Because I will have a teacher pension from the Texas teachers retirement system, I cannot draw a dime of my social security. So I paid for 29 years and get nothing? Sounds fair, doesn't it?

Just some perspective on those who will howl at raising taxes on corporations.

[depakid]

43. No question at all that the tax brackets need to reformed

So that those with the most ability to pay (and enjoy more of the fruits of society) have higher marginal rates. That includes various aspects the corporate tax scheme- and personal income tax as well.

One look at the changes gini coefficient (a measurement inequality) over the years shows us that trickle down and supply side arguments were as bogus then as they are now (paging Charles Gibson).

Making the tax code more progressive is not only sound fiscal policy- it makes makes good economic sense.

The only real question is: does the Democratic leadership in Congress have the political fortitude to act responsibly?

[ContinentalOp]

41. Yay, another subsidy that will help out the boomers just as they retire.

Fuck this bullshit. Forget the fact that there are millions of families who make under $50k while they still have children to support and rent to pay. Maybe even mortgages but that's unlikely since you probably can't afford to buy a house on a $50k a year salary. You probably could afford to buy a house on the equivalent of that $50k salary 30 or 40 years ago though when these retirees were still in the workforce. How predictably ironic that the boomers are going to continue to fuck the young over far worse than any preceding generation. Thanks!

[DesertFlower]

47. does obama mean you pay no taxes if you

make under $50,000 or does he mean that you don't pay the tax on the social security part of that amount?

say you're social security is $14,000 a year. maybe that's the part that you wouldn't be taxed on. that would make more sense.

[Heather MC]

50. Someone should tell the dick-wad who wrote this.....

If you own a home and have a serious medical issue that requires you to stay in a nursing home
Medicare will not pay for your stay, unless you "gave up the rights to your home" 2 YEARS BEFORE THE MEDICAL EMERGENCY.

I know because this happened to my 90 year old Grandmother and was ordered by her doctors to stay in a nursing home to receive round the clock medical care.

the MF who wrote this is why the system is so broken. All those wonderful so call benefits that have the under 50K Senior Living the good life, only kick in if you don't have shit to your name

It was as if my grandmother was being punished for having the Audacity to live too long.

I am happy to report, the doctors said my grandmother recovered faster than anyone they had ever seen her age or younger from her stroke. And she is 95 today and still driving
As she will tell you "She is no rocking chair senior citizen

[murbley40]

57. In my state......

You would have to have given away or "gotten rid of" just about everything you owned and it would have to have been done 5 years before you need the assitance. I believe they allow the "patient"
about $30.00 a week. Everything else goes to the state.

[EstimatedProphet]

53. "Seniors typically have paid off their mortgages"...?

Really? Is this 1974 still? What a load of crap.

[lin_e65]

55. Take a second look

Obama may be onto something. The average SS annual check is 10-11K. That's below the poverty level. Seniors don't get medicare free-they pay a monthly fee. Increases in SS are based upon the inflation rate, yet, I think they remove the cost of food and energy when they determine the rate. This has been going on since Reagan. Ask any senior when they get their SS "raise". It usually come out to about $3 per check more, because the raise generally just covers the increase they pay for medicare. Look at the top developed western countries and the US shows 22% of its seniors live in poverty. $50K is not upper class here. Seniors who have big bucks should be taxed fairly. After reading how corporations are not paying their fair share of taxes, why are we going after seniors? Corporations are the rascals we should be going after!