They said Obama did well in states like Iowa, Minnesota, Oregon and the Dakotas

[Quixote1818]

because the "Northern European" whites voted for him in large numbers yet he struggled with white voters in the East and South "Appalachia whites". I remember CNN pointing out the difference in culture of these "white" groups but I can't remember what it was. I have another thread going that asks why Obama is doing well in the West. It seems to me that the whites in the Dakotas, Montana, Iowa, Washington state etc., are the type of whites that are very attracted to him. I think I remember CNN suggesting they were "Northern European" whites but I could be wrong.

What is the difference between these two "white" groups and why do some love Obama and others not so much? This includes North East working class whites not just Southern Appalachia whites.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Bicoastal]

1. They sure do bend over backwards to disguise what everyone knows but is afraid to say...

...it's a race thing.

[Xipe Totec]

2. Never, ever, speak in absolutes nt

[BlooInBloo]

3. (shrug) Some white folks are more racist than others. Is that really news?

[Jackpine Radical]

4. Germanic versus Ulster Irish (Scots-Irish)? (nt)

[Quixote1818]

5. Could you elaborate about the difference? Cultural that is. nt

[Jackpine Radical]

8. I've just seen that distinction made before in this context.

I don't know if it has any substance or not. Hoping other people can supply more info on it myself.

[Phoonzang]

6. Scotch-Irish in the US have traditionally tended to be more

racist than Scandinavians and other Northern Europeans. Whether that's a function of proximity and competition for jobs or some cultural thing, I don't know.

[Quixote1818]

9. I think this is really interesting

I would be real interested in the roots of the Scotch-Irish prejudices.

[Phoonzang]

10. I think Jim Webb wrote something about it.

An article or a book.

[phillysuse]

21. Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America

Great book by Jim Webb

[Pirate Smile]

18. Scotch-Irish are Protestant, not Catholic like what most people think of as Irish Americans.

I was googling in an attempt to find a link showing that Pat Buchanan was Scotch-Irish, not just "Irish" and came up with these explanations. I read somewhere recently that Buchanan is Catholic from the German side of his family, not the Irish side. I'm an "Irish" American and wanted to toss Buchanan into someone else's lap and out of ours. We have enough assholes. We don't need anyone elses adding to our pile. :)

Irish Americans (Irish: Gael-Mheiriceánach) are citizens of the United States who can claim ancestry originating in the north west European island of Ireland. A total of 35,975,855 Americans (12% of total population) reported Irish ancestry in the 2006 American Community Survey. 1. The only self-reported ancestral group larger than Irish Americans are German Americans. 1. Note that this figure does not include those reporting Scots-Irish ancestry, who are counted separately, and account for approximately five million additional Americans.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_American




Scotch-Irish (the historically common term in North America) or Scots-Irish refers to inhabitants of the United States and, by some, of Canada who are of Ulster Scottish descent. The term may be qualified with American (or Canadian) as in "Scotch-Irish American" or "American of Scots-Irish ancestry".

Prior to the mid-nineteenth century, Irish immigration to the United States was predominantly Protestant, Calvinistic, and usually Presbyterian or Congregationalist. (This was in contrast to the later waves of Irish Catholic immigration following the Great Irish Famine and tenant clearances of the mid-1800s). These earlier immigrants formed distinct communities in the U.S. Many had an historical opposition to both Roman Catholicism as well as the established church of British-controlled Ireland (Church of Ireland). According to the U.S. Census Bureau 5.2 million Americans claimed Scotch-Irish ancestry, though the actual number is somewhat higher, as some people who claim "American" as their ancestry are of Scots-Irish ancestry.<2><3><4>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots-Irish_American

[JI7]

11. but i don't think Obama has a problem with them outside of Appalachia

at least not in the same level.

[Phoonzang]

14. Doesn't Appalachia the highest concentration

of Scotch-Irish?

[JI7]

16. yes

but i'm saying that even among just the scotch irish outside of appalachia i don't think he is as unpopular.

i don't know for sure but there was a pretty good article during the primary posted on this.

problems with Obama is mostly about race.

[JI7]

7. it's race, they said it themselves

[BlooInBloo]

31. hahaha! It used to be: if you don't say "nigger", then it's not racist....

Now it's just not racist even if you DO say it's race.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

God I love being the fox that guards the henhouse.

[cbc5g]

12. It's more a cultural thing than a race thing

If Appalachian people perceive you as not being one of them, they'll be very unsure of you and have a harder time trusting you. Clinton won them because they could relate to Bill Clinton. I don't think McCain will do too well with them but Obama will definitely not do well either. In fact, they'll be more likely to vote for McCain because they share a couple things in common with McCain (love of military service, skin color, "American name") but they don't trust him much either. It's a tradition that's passed down through the generations. Why do you think those folks moved to the mountains and holed up there instead of staying with the colonies? Because they didn't trust the new people coming to America. They thought they were taking their jobs, destroying their culture and way of life etc etc. Appalachian whites have trouble associating with those who aren't like them. It's racism to some, nativism to others, but to them it's just the way it is.

[Quixote1818]

13. Interesting. Thanks. nt

[JI7]

19. McCain is Scotch-Irish

and the dislike of Obama does have a lot to do with race. just look at the Primary which is mostly democratic voters. John Kerry was able to win them easily even though he lost the state in GE.

the big thing holding them back from voting for Obama was race.

[BlooInBloo]

20. Gotta love the "it's not race" apologists, though. They never give up.

[JI7]

28. yup, they voted for Jay ROCKEFELLER

and you want to tell me that not supporting OBama is not about race but relating to him ???????

so they relate to Rockefeller more than Obama.

[cbc5g]

24. I agree, a good portion does have to do with race but...

John Kerry got killed in the general election because of his perceived elitism and his out-of-touch persona with Appalachian people. They could relate to Bill Clinton, they could somewhat relate to Bush, but not with Kerry. He talked too intellectually, was from the liberal Northeast etc etc.


Consider this, would people in Harlem trust a pale country white guy walking around? If he ran for office in the heavily black/latino area, would they vote for him (and let's say for the sake of argument that he is somewhat superior on the issues) or the guy from Harlem that they could relate to?

I think now you are beginning to understand Appalachia.

[JI7]

26. but John Kerry easily won among the Dem voters in Appalachia

which Obama couldn't. so it was about race to them.

many white guys have won in HArlen and other minority areas.

what hurt Kerry was people's perception he wasn't religious. i laughed in the Primary when they were spreading rumors that Kerry was going to ban the bible in West Virginia but many people actually believed it.

[Condem]

15. I'll speak for Iowa, Quixote

Eastern Iowa is night & day with the western half. We own the population. Towns like Cedar Rapids, Dubuque and the Quad Cities have an ethnic base. Lots of cultures. Then there's Iowa City which is a liberal oasis. We will go to Obama. No doubt.

[Quixote1818]

17. I noticed Iowa was in the "strong" column for Obama

That is great to see.

[Condem]

22. We have great confidence in the man, Quixote

A sense. That is all I can attribute it to. Remember, we had him here for almost a year. We believe.

[Pirate Smile]

25. I was never aware until this election of the big difference between the Midwest and the Appalachian

areas.

I remember on the night of the Indiana/North Carolina primaries when Chuck Todd said you could literally draw a line horizontally at a certain point in Indiana which showed where the state was Appalachian and where it became Midwestern in its voting patterns. It was clear in the voting #'s. I remember how clear it was in the areas of Ohio that were considered Appalachian.

One thing this election has done is teach a lot about the demographics and cultures of certain regions of the country.

I think Chuck Todd keeps referring to what I generally think of as the Midwest as the region of Illinois. There has also always been a certain voting block of the northern Midwest states that tend to vote Democratic - Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa.

The rust belt is obviously quite different - Pennsylvania, Ohio.

Michigan? I always think of them with the northern Midwest states.

You move into the Plains states and they tend Republican - Kansas, Nebraska, the Dakotas.

You move into the Mountain region - tends Republican but more libertarian, not the social conservative crap.

Then the left coast of course - a good Dem bastion.

edit to add - the Appalachian states screwed up that graph that showed how Obama did well in very white states and states with a significant black population but the states in between (something like between 7-17% African American) he had a hard time. West Virginia especially just completely blew that argument out of the water because it is a very white state which acted completely different from most very white states. It was the exception that proves the rule, I guess.

[cyndensco]

23. Iowa got it right from the get-go.

:applause:

[Pirate Smile]

27. Western Iowa seems to act more like the Plains states and Eastern Iowa is more Northern Midwest.

[Condem]

29. Exactly right, Pirate

Two different states.

[MasonJar]

30. I would say that most of the Appalachian population is from the British Isles,

especially England. Many settled in Virginia and some later North Carolina, and when the Cumberland Trail began to be opened up a lot of the settlers followed Daniel Boone and others on the Trail to what became West Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee. Some stayed in the Blue Ridge and Smokies and some went on to the Bluegrass and so on. Daniel Boone finally ended up in Mo. The citizens who remained in the Appalachian Mountain areas were somewhat more isolated over the decades than the ones who moved to the valleys, as was demonstrated by their retention in many cases of the Elizabethan accent and vernacular. Now of course there is so much communication everywhere that this is depleting. Many of the people in the mountains are very educated and also quite political. The stereotype of them is very narrow. These are relatives not only of Boone, but of fine Virginia families such as Blairs (of Blair House fame) and Harrisons and Adams and so on. It is easy to dismiss these citizens as bigots, but it is not normally true. Many are impoverished and others are beset upon by mining companies and such, but in general they are store owners, businessmen, doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. I know this from first hand experience as well as study. Who they will vote for is probably up for grabs; however, I have been sorry to see that Kentucky and Tennessee are labeled red. Both have a Democratic governor, and in Kentucky I think that since Clinton the state party has not done a good job of supporting our nominee. I worked my buns off for Gore (my very favorite politician) and for Kerry, but I did not feel that the party was all that invested. That should now change some because the party is getting back on its proverbial feet again.

[George_Bonanza]

32. Appalachian whites need someone to look down upon

Everyone else in America has it better than they do.

[Frustratedlady]

33. You have to remember that Iowans had a long time to kick the tires...

and look the candidates over. It drives them crazy when we won't commit, but in this "training" field, lots can happen and I think we've learned over the years not to declare our choice too early. (I was for Biden before Obama, but Obama was a close second.)

Our people are also more "live and let live" than perhaps some. We tend to help our neighbors and band together to get the job done. On the other hand, we can be pretty stubborn when it comes to the Hawkeyes vs. the Cyclones.

Remember that Obama and Michelle are just over the border from us, so we aren't much different from their friends and neighbors.

[Heather MC]

34. Chuck Todd broke it down like this

states below the Mason the dixon that have a history of racial intolerance
and white people feeling like they have suffered under the affirmative action laws
are clearly split down racial lines
western states that did not have major white black issues are more likely willing to vote for Obama
there is not a history of racial anger

that's basically what he said

[Frank Booth]

35. Sounds like a bunch of bunk to me.

There aren't a lot of "Northern European" whites in Montana, Colorado, or New Mexico, but Obama's still doing well in those states. And though he won't win Wyoming or Idaho, I still think he'll do much better than the Democratic candidate usually does.

The western states in general don't have the history of racial animosity that a lot of eastern states do. It's as simple as that. To say it's because of some ancestral identity -- which most people don't even care about -- is grasping at straws.