The nerve of some people. (Help me debunk something outrageous, please)

[MirrorAshes]

Ok, so I know that the answer SHOULD be very easy. It SHOULD be clear that this person's question is based upon a faulty and dishonest premise. It SHOULD be common sense. But it isn't, and why? Because the republican liars have clouded the field of play so much that simple logic is no longer nearly enough to counter these outrageous attacks.

But is there any truly effective way to deal with attacks like this? I feel I did my best, but despite the self-evident truth to what I have said, I just don't feel like there is a proper response to something like this. It would be easy to simply say "Rot in hell, you fascist pig" which I believe I've told him before. But this was just so, so bad that I thought I had to adress it fully. Thanks for letting me blow of a little steam, this sort of thing really gets under my skin. Anyway, heres how it went--

On a farily high traffic music discussion site I visit, which has a small but loud group of rabid freeping conservatives, one of them came up with the following-

"Why is it that you take the military to task for what happened at Abu Grhaib yet seemingly cannot bring yourselves to admonish John Kerry for his own acknowledgements concerning atrocites committed in Vietnam?"

He went on to press the issue and continue to compare Kerry to the people involved in Abu Ghraib. This quite honestly makes me ill to even realize that some people would be low enough to pull a move like this, but nothing really surprises me any more.

My response, in my own thread (I could not bear to validate his by posting in it) is as follows-

"Vietnam was a terrible mistake.

This is a simple fact that people need to get through their heads.

In response to Phishy's thread, yes, we liberals do admonish Kerry personally for his admitted role in the "atrocities" committed by Americans. We also, however, admire and respect him for being one of the few to lead the fight against the people truly responsible for these atrocities--the government who's policies allowed and encouraged them to happen.

Everything Kerry talked about back then HAPPENED. Vietnam was a terrible, ugly, dirty war and many things that Americans would like to pretend could never happen--DID.

John Kerry recognized what was happening and led the fight to end it. For that, he should be seen as a hero. The people who call him a traitor for telling the truth are people who have been tainted and compromised by the war in Vietnam. It was a terrible war, and it changed alot of people. Some it changed by instilling in them a deep hatred for the vietnamese, some it changed by instilling hatred in the protesters who fought to end the war they were stuck in the middle of.

Some veterans praise John Kerry because they know deep down, no matter how much they'd like to admit otherwise, he was right. Some hate him because they know he is right and that they are guilty. Some simply hate the world for exposing them to the horros of war in general.

No matter what the case, we must remember one thing--John Kerry was RIGHT about the vietnam war."

He followed with this--

"Kerry himself admitted he had committed atrocities. It's quoted for you in that thread. You scold abu grhaib for happeneing. you don't give Kerry the same treatment. Therefore, it's a double standard. It fits your agenda to bash Abu Grhraib and put it on the NY Times front page for a month straight."

To which I responded (last one, promise)

"Its not a double standard because it is a COMPLETELY different situation.

Abu Ghraib was not standard practice. Abu Ghraib was an abomination. As soon as the lid was blown on Abu Ghraib, it was denounced by EVERYONE.

The atrocities committed in Vietnam were far more complicated. Even you must admit that. They were not single specific occurances, they were widespread and based on POLICY. Free fire zones, harassment fire, the burning of villages and such were all endorsed from the top down.

John Kerry is one of thousands who went over there and did his job, as he was told to do it. He is one of the few who came back and told the truth about what had happened.

And for that, he is a HERO."

[Dookus]

1. Simply ask them

to provide evidence that Kerry ever said he committed atrocities. He did not ever say such a thing.

[MirrorAshes]

9. Alright.

This is definately an important point, which I do seem to have missed. Thanks to you and everyone who gave me the info I needed!

[denverbill]

2. if you reserarch his remarks about Vietnam atrocities

I think you will not only be surprised but you will be able to refute this ridiculous charge.

[NMDemDist2]

3. Kerry only admitted free fire zones

he quoted others from the Winter Soldiers who had first hand experience with atrocities.

here's the quotes from the testimony in front of congress:

Kerry Senate Testimony (1971): I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They ( NOT KERRY) told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

it's all here at Factcheck.org http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docid=244

[bobthedrummer]

7. My two tour (66-68) USMC first cousin shared his ear necklace and scalps

with me once.
He committed suicide.
I realize that I would have more than likely competed to get the most when I was 19 or so.
I've been shot at 7 times as an American citizen, but I'm not a vet.
I'm 54, a boomer.

[SnohoDem]

4. He didn't participate in any atrocities -

He told the Senate Foreign Relations comittee about the testimony of men who had. A quote that makes Kerry look like he committed atrocities is probably taken out of context.

Read:

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/winter2_20040302.htm

http://www.urich.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html


On edit:

Bob KerrEy however, may have participated in the murder of several civilians. I'm not sure. There was a story about it in 1996 or 2000.

[kikiek]

5. He was fighting to end the war and bring the troops home. He used great

courage in facing the likes of Nixon and company, and deserves a medal for that. He did that at great risk to his own reputation, and probably safety. It was people like him who forced our government to end that war. They can distort it all they want. It doesn't change the fact that Kerry was a hero in Vietnam, and at home when he returned.

[democrat_patriot]

6. John Kerry NEVER said he was involved in atrocities.

He was paraphrasing. If the righ-wing would show the whole clip, you'd see that.

He was paraphrasing from an earlier convention in Detroit.

[gumby]

8. free fire zones and Abu Grhaib

were both Official Government Policies.

To borrow a phrase: It's the Government Policy stupid!

[amjsjc]

10. Probably got the wrong guy...

As someone else pointed out the guy's probably confusing John Kerry with Bob Kerry (another Vietnam vet Senator, who was apparently responsible for a small massacre.) Kerry did shoot armed VC Gurillas, but you can't equate that with Abu Ghraib. Best wishes.

[jjmalonejr]

11. Denouncing Abu Ghraib is more than just denouncing the soldiers

that participated in the abuse. It's about revealing the POLICIES that led otherwise good soldiers to do things that they would ordinarily NEVER do.

The Pentagon wants to denounce the individual soldiers involved and get on with it. It's not about the individual soldiers and what they did in wartime, it's about the leadership that encouraged and enabled such atrocities.

The atrocities of Vietnam are entirely analogous. Again, it's not about the soldiers, who are often victims of circumstance. It's about the leadership that encouraged and enabled the atrocities.

This is what John Kerry was denouncing. Not the soldiers.

[MirrorAshes]

12. Right!

I've gone on to make a few of these points as well. Thanks for your insight.

Its just amazing to me that these people can sink so low.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

13. When Kerry was in his early 20's he was testifying before Congress.

What was Chimp doing?

[the Kelly Gang]

14. I honestly do not think you can convince these dopes of anything..

I have given up talking to a friend and in fact I've dismissed him from my life because of similar to what you are saying..if you tell them a fact they just come out with more myths..it is almost soul-destroying..just get on with getting Kerry elected the best way you can.

[MirrorAshes]

15. Thank you...

I think you know the emotion I'm dealing with right now. It just makes me sick to even have to make these kinds of arguments. You're right though, we just have to think positive and stick to our guns. We are right, and they are wrong. Its as simple as that.

[EST]

16. John Kerry is a hero many times.

He was a hero to volunteer, volunteer again for such hazardous duty, a hero during that duty, and his greatest act of heroism was coming home and facing the combined might of the US government and staring them down. Oh how I wish I could have been that kind of hero.
The real problem is that JFK is apparently not devious and slimy enough to be a modern politician, witness his assumption that this bunch of crapheads would just fade from sight instead of being pumped by a media hungry for controversy and run by the same sort of slime.