Sure-fire sign that Bush is losing the Swift-Vets thing: New talking...

[Brotherjohn]

... points from the GOP are:

"The real issue is these 'shadowy' 527 groups"
and
"Kerry did it to!"
(they then bring up the MoveOn ad allegedly comparing Bush to Hitler; I don't remember that one... anyone?)

Hmmnnn, they weren't really saying anything about these 'shadowy' 527 groups until it became plain that everyone wasn't buying it, and until Kerry started fighting back. And if they're so 'shadowy', why don't you condemn them? ALL of them?

The fact that they are trying to change the subject proves that they know they've gone too far.

The polls prove as much: A new Annenberg poll shows that Independents by a factor of 3-to-1 think Kerry earned his medals (i.e. they "don't believe the hype"). The same poll even shows that REPUBLICANS are split half and half on the question!
http://pollingreport.com/

Now I ask you, on what issue -- ANY ISSUE -- are Republicans split half and half on when the choices are Kerry and Bush?!

They've gone too far, and they're losing this one.

The only thing it accomplishes is diverting from the real issues (and that's the only way they can win anyway). While it may have worked to that extent in that it's become this month's 24-hour cable news obsession, the above poll shows that it may very well have driven many independent voters (and even some Republican voters) AWAY from Bush... and I doubt it's gained Bush a single Dem voter. Those Repub and Independent numbers tilt so far to Kerry's side relative to numbers on every other issue that it's scary (not to mention the 3-to-1 overall result).

In effect, Bush's side has created an issue out of thin air, and it's an issue they're losing BIG TIME on.

[Philostopher]

1. Facts on the 'Hitler' ad.

There were ads submitted by private citizens who weren't MoveOn staff that used Hitler imagery. When MoveOn found out they were submitted for the contest, they were removed; unfortunately, they did appear on the site for view until removed, during that 'Bush In 60 Seconds' contest where submissions were open to anybody who had a 60-second digital video to submit.

It's bogus anyway, unless they have some proof that Democratic organizations or the Kerry/Edwards campaign has coordinated with MoveOn. And anyway, at the time the ad contest was on the MoveOn site, Kerry wasn't the nominee.

[Warpy]

4. Then the GOP team did their own "Kerry is Hitler" ad and

put it on their OFFICIAL website for a couple of weeks. Get the hypocrisy here? The stench is permeating just about everything these bastards do.

[Philostopher]

6. Oh, I remember.

And that one was actually a sanctioned ad -- the MoveOn thing wasn't. The hypocrisy is the vilest part of all this. Always was.

[Brotherjohn]

13. I figured as much. One of thousands of ads, chosen 'democratically'...

... by a vote of MoveOn members, not even a sanctioned ad by that group, which is not even affiliated with Kerry, which did not even run ANYWHERE.

Being compared to an ad run on television in several swing states, and then repeated and discussed ad infinitum on 24-hour cable news channels and talk radio program for weeks.

Yeah. That's the same thing.

I figured the comparison was bogus, but I didn't even know about the Repub-SANCTIONED ad comparing Kerry to Hitler! That makes their hypocrisy reek so much I'm about to gag!

Do you have a link to info about THAT one?

[Philostopher]

16. Here's a link to a DU thread about it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=647591&mesg_id=647591&page=

That's all I got, though it looks like the article in the main link is from the NYT web site.

[Brotherjohn]

18. Well, to be fair, that seems a whole lot different than comparing Kerry...

... to Hitler.

It IS, admittedly, using Hitler's image in a national (web) ad along with Kerry's. But it seems they are using the MoveOn contest ad's image of Hitler to make the point that Bush's opponents have compared him to Hitler. Sure, they won't miss the opportunity to depict Kerry and Hitler in the same ad, though.

But really, it was just them making a mountain out of what's not even a molehill, as they still do bringing up the "Move On" ad (which wasn't even by Move On, or run anywhere by them or anyone else). It's not exactly as the first post that mentioned it (RNC comparing Kerry to Hitler).

[Philostopher]

19. I didn't see the ad.

Some DUers thought it insinuated that Kerry was comparable to Hitler. I don't know, because I didn't see it -- somebody who did could probably give you more insight into the actual content of the web ad.

The truth doesn't matter to these guys, anyway. They've been 'making shit up' since long before King Ron Reagan was coronated, and getting away with it, so I see no reason they'd stop now.

[Cassandra]

2. The GOP talking points all weekend were...

Kerry's hiding or running away from his record. I heard that from more than 6 operatives on various shows.

[LuminousX]

3. Bob Dole was the worst this weekend

basically saying his wounds were worse than Kerry's as if anyone was arguing that Kerry was grievously hurt. Kerry didn't ask for the Purple Hearts, the attending Doctor does the paperwork on it.

I am loathing this. NPR this morning had a story on the ad, talking about how widely it was seen and heard by people which was amazing for the little amount of money and then went on to play snippets of it.

Well, duh! They then had the gall to blame just RW radio.

[Brotherjohn]

14. Yes, he really embarrassed himself. He said Kerry got two Purple...

...Hearts on the same day (implying he staged his injuries and was in a rush to get out).

As the NY Times points out today (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/23/politics/campaign/23swift.html?hp):
He received them for the events of Dec. 2, 1968, Feb. 20, 1969, and March 13, 1969.

Yeah Bob. That's the same as two in the same day. You're retired now. Take the time to do your research.

Bob Dole served his country and paid dearly, and I greatly respect and appreciate him for that. But now he's just embarrassing himself.

[autorank]

20. Shit can NPR and PBS Funding

Both have demonstrated that they are media whores with gusto. I mean, what's the point anymore. Government radio and TV, yuck. They just need to go; then they'd have only their audience to support them through donations or audience share and they'd have to be liberal! This would be a nice start for the Kerry administration, surprise many, and make sure we never have to listen the the sanctimonious 'Frontline' again and their attacks on victims of child abuse (I mean really, that happened in the '90s and we should have known then that PBS was infected with a nasty virus!).

[Brotherjohn]

7. Yes yes. But these are the NEW ones. The White House itself ...

... is using them, and I heard at least one or two talking heads spouting it this weekend and this morning. I am in no way implying that the SBV accusations will stop. But they're throwing this in now as a way of backtracking and changing the subject from their own sleazy campaign tactics. ("They're not OUR sleazy campaign tactics! They're our friends'!")

Sure, they'll still talk out of both sides of their mouths, bashing the groups while continuing to make innuendos based on the groups' ads (amazing, but Bushites are so good at 'saying one thing and doing another'). But this has been their shift in tactics when pressed about condemning the ads.

See this from Thursday's http://talkingpointsmemo.com/:

Now, today Scott McClellan got asked about these ads again and again. And he kept refusing to answer the question, insisting on reframing the question as one about unregulated soft-money (that is, 527s) and all the "shadowy groups" that are out there attacking president. (In other words, this is no different from the Moveon ads that say Bush has piled up a deficit for our grandchildren or accusing him of misleading the country about Iraqi WMD) After hitting on the question again and again, that led to this exchange in which the Oregon incident finally gets brought up ...

Q Well, the charge, though, has been made not just in advertisements, but it has now been made directly to the President.
MR. McCLELLAN: And there have been a lot of false, negative charges made against the President by these shadowy groups. So if he would join us, we could get rid of all of this unregulated soft money activity.

Q Let me ask it this way: The President has said and believes that John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam, right?

MR. McCLELLAN: Yes, he's made that very clear. We've made it very clear that we will not make his -- will never raise questions about his service. We haven't, and we won't.

Q This advertisement raises questions about his service, and in fact concludes that he served dishonorably. So the President thinks this ad is false, right?

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, the issue here is these unregulated soft money groups that exist. The campaign finance reforms were passed in order to get rid of this kind of activity. Yet there is a loophole in the law, and the FEC has refused to address it. We think that all of this activity should be stopped.

Q Could I follow on that? Because what Terry seems to be getting at, what's clear from this event that Bush had last week --

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, let's not be selective here. Let's look at the overall activity that's going on by all of these shadowy groups. I think we're being a little selective right now. And Senator Kerry is being -- is trying to have it all ways, yet again. He says one thing, while his campaign goes out there and does another thing.

[CBHagman]

5. So Merrie Spaeth, Bob Perry and Ken Cordier are "shadowy"?

Glad you cleared that up, GOPers.

[hatrack]

15. Exactly!!!

:wtf: is so "shadowy" about these sons-of-bitches?

Everyone knows who they are, everyone knows they are good buddies with Karl (Atwater-Lite) Rove and everyone knows they are the same basket of dog turds who smeared McCain back in 2000.

"Shadowy" in exactly WHAT sense?

[MallRat]

8. The "we hate 527s" spin has been in place for a while.

Every time the Bush campaign is asked to denounce the Swift Boat Vets, their response is, "we hate what 527s have done to political discourse in this election year."

They have yet to explicitly repudiate the ads, unlike Kerry who did come out against MoveOn's ads about Bush's TANG service.

Bush will be given another chance to denounce the Swiftboat Liars this morning. He'll be taking press questions, and someone is going to ask him point-blank.

This is a lose-lose situation for him. If he repudiates the Swiftboat ads, then he looks weak by conceding to pressure from Kerry. If he doesn't denounce the ads, then we and the press will just keep digging and tie him even tighter to the smear campaign.

-MR

[readmylips]

9. AZ bush Ad attacking Kerry's Senate Record....

it's time Kerry attacked bush's vacation time off.

[bri_in_austin]

10. Man, this "swift boat vets for truth" thing gets me down

But...

Then I think about the fact that Bush didn't even go oversees during Vietnam!

And...

In three months no one will be talking about this anymore. I bet people won't be talking about this in three weeks.

So...

What WILL Bush talk about in debates?? His great defense record? His distruction of civil liberties? His destruction of the dictatorship in Iraq so that it can be a hot bed for terrorrism?

I'm not too worried about what day Kerry was on a swift boat in Cambodia.

Let the bullies have their fun...it won't last too long.

[sandnsea]

11. They WISH we'd go there

We can't let them get away with that. Kerry came out against 527 ads months ago and said he wished nobody would run them. Moveon immediately took down the Hitler ad. Then Bush used it in an internet campaign and hasn't said anything about these Swift Boat ads, specifically. Not to mention, the Democratic 527's are truthful. They'd like to make this about 527's, don't let them.

[KharmaTrain]

12. No Backing Down...Now's The Time To Flush 'Em Out...

Yep...finally the worm's turning in our favor here. Why we had to fight this slime in the first place still frustrates. But here's the skinny:

Democrats, who one couldn't think could be more united than they are, were incensed over this smear along the lines of what the GOOP did not to Cleland or Gore, but to Clinton! I'm betting, but we won't see them, Kerry popularity among Democrats is hitting needle-bending levels...and it can go even higher if this regime wants to keep "bringing it on".

Now's the time to really turn this game to our advantage. We've always had the numbers, now it's our turn to flex the new powerful muscle Democrats now have. Enough of the lies and distortion. Enough of the "credible sources" who are nothing more than shills and paid thugs for this regime. No more escaping responsibility or denying complicity.

Out with the names and plenty of them. This was an attack not just on Kerry, but on ALL veterans. We can't let them forget...and then to branch into the many current mess; from the draft & stop loss to the entire Iraq fiasco. There's a Vietnam lesson we'll have to deal with sooner or later...so bring it on!

Let's not let these slimeboaters like O'Neill slip out of sight, either. They've made some serious charges and now they better back 'em up. We've got 'em on record, on websites, on tapes...clamping down on these thugs sends a message that the politics of personal destruction is REALLY about to come to an end...but first there are a few more roadblocks. Now's the time for Kerry, the Democrats and America to destroy this blot on our nation and the world.

[George_Bonanza]

17. MoveOn.org tells the truth, SwiftVets lie... Big difference

These idiotic and desperate Republicans are acting as if MoveOn is lying or using slander against Bush, when most of their ads are very truthful, such as Bush's terrible economy. The ones that have crossed the line, Kerry's campaign has denounced them, like the Hitler ad and the recent AWOL ad.

Ted Devine said it so succintly on Meet the Press, when Tim Russert asked him whether or not Vietnam vets had the right to free speech. Ted said that they didn't have the right to lie. booya!

[Sivart]

21. Move on

Why is no one pointing out that Move On was established two administrations ago......unlike SBVFT who popped up just in time for election day....