Has The Worm Turned In Our Favor Regarding The Swift Boat Brouhaha

[DemocratSinceBirth]

[Beetwasher]

1. Yup, It's Getting Blown Up, Bigger Than Life, Bigger Than Bushco. Wanted

The bigger something is, the easier it is to see the flaws.

They're blowing it up bigger than Bushco. ever dreamed, so damn big all the disgusting, reeking, fetid filth of the seedy underbelly gets rammed down the throats of everyone, so there's no doubt about what's going on. Blow it up, bigger than life, a giant maggot for everyone to choke on. Everyone will know it for exactly what it is and will know exactly who's responsible.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. I Think So....

They lied.....

[Scooter24]

3. I think its two-fold..

for one...this issue is yesterdays-news. The more Kerry spends responding and concentrating on the vets, Bush's support grows. Let the media tear them apart. Let MoveOn do its job. Lets see our 527's start hiring private investigators and dig into their past and then make a 30-sec ad discrediting them. Let's see Soros and other key supporters start going on TV in our defense. What we need from Kerry is an all-out assault on Bush to counter balance the war rhetoric. You would think that the only issue that matters in a President is someone's military service. Bush is getting away to easily on this because the campaign is shifting our resources to counter the vets.

[Paradise]

6. hmmm, your post caused me to wonder what larry flynt's up to, these days.

"Lets see our 527's start hiring private investigators and dig into their past and then make a
30-sec ad discrediting them."

we'd need an investigator who's in a position to fight fire with fire.
flynt did a pretty good job of it during the clinton lynching.
larry, where are you, larry???

[blondeatlast]

8. Well, in a way, I agree, BUT

we need the swing vote now.

Larry could be a liability in that regard.

[Paradise]

10. you're probably right

but it felt so good when he outed those hypocrites.

[blondeatlast]

7. The onus is off the SBVL and now is squarely on Bush.

The FEC challenge is big enough to get media coverage during the blackout period, and with few precious campaign dollars spent.

Kerry and Edwards are both enormously successful lawyers. They know they have the goods; the first rule of trial litigation is never ask a question you don't already know the answer to.

It also puts Bush on the defensive in a huge way.

[Paradise]

11. that's what i thought!

"They know they have the goods; the first rule of trial litigation is never ask a question you don't already know the answer to."

thanks for the vote of confidence. :)

[Guaranteed]

41. Nope, this is right where we want the fight.

If they want to fight on this ground, we're going to win. So, let them.

[Florida G Man]

43. Kerry needs to sue them NOW.

I think Kerry is playing these liars perfectly, he has stated all this swift vet for LIES is all LIES. He had denounced a negative Bush ad, and has filed a complaint with the FEC.

All JFK needs to do NOW, is file a LIBEL SUITE in court about this smirky campaign attack.

Then it will be PROVEN as all LIES.

Then the Kerry campaign can again show Bush as a idiot. :kick:

[gollygee]

4. Since there's no "I Hope So" choice

I voted yes.

[liberal N proud]

5. I keep thinking it is but then another hour starts and they start right in

with the negativity and letting the bush talking heads puke their garbage and I become disillusioned again.
I have fear of what these people will pull, Carl Rove will do anything to win! That is his philosophy ANYTHING TO WIN!

[blondeatlast]

9. Indeed it has; this post is proof--they are dead in the water on this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=647199&mesg_id=647199

Skinner posted a cut and paste link to the archive, I suggest that it be the one used.

[Nordic]

12. If it's made Kerry/Edwards take the gloves off then YES

It's time to pound these lying sacks of shit back to the ooze from which they emerged.

[IndianaGreen]

13. I think Kerry needs to get back on message!

This entire "issue" is nothing more than an attempt to distract attention from the real issues facing our country. Each day we spend discussing events that happened during an ugly war that ended 30 years ago, is a day in which the war criminals in the Bush regime get away with murder (literally!).

During the primaries I posted repeatedly that Vietnam is a ghost that should never be resurrected. It may be hard to believe, but in war you can have two people tell two different accounts of the same event and still be telling the truth. I have no doubt that this is what is happening here. The real issue for those of us that lived during that period is that the wounds of Vietnam, which many of us thought had been healed by the noble Gulf War, have now been reopened by ruthless people that could care less about our country being ripped apart.

I think Kerry needs to get back on message! One way to do that is to say what all of us already know: the Vietnam War was a traumatic event in our nation's history, and to re-fight this war does the country more harm than good. Veterans, as well as Vietnam activists on both sides of the war issue, will never, ever, be able to fully bury the demons of that war. Our country is facing a debacle in Iraq of greater proportions than the one we faced in Vietnam. The troops that were sent to Iraq believing that they were defending America's security deserve a full accounting of the actions of the Government that sent them there. Heads will roll!

This is not about Vietnam, this is all about Iraq!

[Cyrano]

14. NO. The lie is out there and most people don't get their news on-line

Fox, CNN, talk radio, most newspapers and even network news hasn't driven home the fact that these are bought and paid for GOP thugs.

During the (so-called) recount in Florida in 2000, Tom DeLay sent a band of criminals (otherwise known as his staff members) to Florida to protest the "recount" in front of the cameras. Most of the public thought this was a spontaneous outpouring of public sentiment.

Same with the swift boat cretins. Most people hear about the phony accusations, but never get to hear the fact that this is a band of lying turds who have dishonored their service to this country. Most people never take the time to pay attention to the fact that they're own previous statements contradict their current accusations, or that this whole scam was bought and paid for by Texas friends of Bush/Rove/Inc.

The lies have taken hold and Kerry has a lot of work to do to show them for what they are. And he can't count on the media for much help. After all, the media hasn't been in the "truth" business for many years now.

[IndianaGreen]

15. A shameless kick

Sorry...

:kick:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Kick

[hyphenate]

17. Naw

They're going to slink their way out of it somehow, like they've managed to do in every other scandal which has touched them since they got into office. It sucks, but the GOP is just so filled with dirty politics that they're experts at weaseling out of tight spots.

[oasis]

18. Chimpy's eroding crediblity takes another big hit. (eom)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. We Have Evidence Tieing Bush To The Swiftos

and we have evidence they are liars....


Things are looking good...

[David Zephyr]

20. It Hasn't Turned Yet, But It Can and Must

And then when they try to "drop" the story and "move on", we must pound the living hell with the public as to how vile these people are.

[ibegurpard]

21. I think it's on the edge.

Close but not yet.

[robcon]

22. I don't think it's turned yet

I hope it will soon... the testimony seems to be pretty solid that the Swifties are lying/mistaken.

The Christmas in Cambodia story hurts, though.

[BillZBubb]

23. No, not yet.

It might. Of course that requires the public to completely erase the lies from memory which usually doesn't happen.

[Guaranteed]

24. It seems to me that it has...but, even if it hasn't,

we are most definitely WELL-POSITIONED on this issue. Tactically, we are ready to strike and these mofos are going to be feeling it next week.

Bring on the pain.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. You're Right

I see people in this thread lamenting the fact that FOX, the New York Post and their devotees are still carrying the Swift Boater's water...


These people were never ours for the taking...


But the mainstream media is on our side.....

[Chichiri]

25. The Massive Inertia of Mass Media

I think the worm is in the process of turning -- and it's a slow process. The trick is that we need to keep at it. To alter a massive interia you need a counter-acting force, not necessarily as powerful, but persistent and steadfast. All the blogs out there that are catching the truth, along with DU and similar communities, are that counter-acting force. We don't wield the power of the mass media, but make no mistake, we wield power. The trick is to remain constant in using that power -- to not give up. No matter how sick the GOPpers and their media cronies make us -- and oh, do they ever -- and no matter how it may seem like we're not getting anywhere, we must never give up. We must not rest, not even for a moment, until the worm has turned and Bush is on his way out.

[eurolefty]

26. Maybe.

[Karenina]

27. Superb toon!

With Rood on the front page if the Trib today, the worm has turned!
:toast: :toast: :toast:

[bklyncowgirl]

28. I would have said yes but then I spoke to a GOP relative

She's a great old lady pushing 90, tough as nails, sharp as a tack and a lifelong dyed in the wool Republican. The only Democrat she ever voted for was FDR. We were at my mother's birthday party when the spouse, perhaps not with the best possible timing, asked who she was going to vote for.

She said Bush because he'll keep us safe. He said Kerry went to Vietnam bush didn't go to Vietnam. She said Kerry lied about his war record. I then jumped in and told her that the New York Times and the Washington Post had thoroughly debunked the Swift Boat Vets. She said she did not believe anything that was written in either of those two newspapers because they are hopelessly biased against Republicans. She gets her news from Fox and the New York Post (she used to read the Daily News before it turned all liberal)

I may have made her think for just a moment when I said that back in the days when Republicans were in favor of balanced budgets they had some good things going for them but Bush has created the biggest deficits in history. He has a war to run, she said. I asked her whether Franklin Roosevelt cut taxes during World War II. She was silent.

Please, before you accuse me of beating up on an old lady, let me tell you that this is one tough cookie who's always enjoyed verbal combat and does not want to be catered to because of her age. I wish to hell she was a Liberal.

We offered her a ride to the polls and take her out for a drink before she voted on election day. She said no way, you'll slip me a Mickey.

Folks, there's an awful lot of folks out there like that, limited in their mindset, eager to believe the worst bad about Democrats, thoroughly suspicious about the mainstream media and unwilling to consider the possibility that a Republican could possibly be a bad president and a bad man.

Kerry fighting back is a good thing but the way I see it is that this mess could still go either way. Once the genie is out of the bottle it's pretty damn hard to

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. If We Have To Depend On Folks Who Haven't Voted For A Dem Since FDR We're

Doomed...


That being said... I think the pool of available voters is a little larger...

[Guaranteed]

42. Those people were already voting for Bush.

You're honestly worried about whether or not those clowns think Kerry lied about his war record?

We're aiming for an entirely different demographic, here.

[jsw_81]

29. It's too soon to know for sure

Wait for the next batch of polls to come out.

[Democat]

30. No, they beat our asses so far

I don't think we're winning this fight. Maybe it will turn in our favor, but the right had two weeks of almost unopposed anti-Kerry coverage and now we're on day two of some "balanced" reporting from the media.

We probably can't win this one because we gave them two weeks head start, but it's good to see Kerry fighting back and hopefully he can shut these guys down by putting the pressure on Bush.

The most important thing is that Kerry learned a valuable, but painful lesson. You cannot play nice with these crooks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. Kerry Couldn't Pounce On The Story Till The Vets Were Linked To Bush

Once the Washington Post, the Chicago Tribune, and the Washington Post linked the Swift Boaters to Bush... Kerry could attack....


Before that it was Kerry against a bunch of disgruntled Naval officers...


Now it's Kerry against against a group of dusgruntled Naval officers backed by the White House....


Huge difference....

[NewHampshireDem]

31. I thought so, until I checked Buzzflash this morning ...

and know I KNOW SO! :)

The expression "give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves" comes to mind. I think Kerry's campaign did the right thing in not panicking. No need to when the truth is squarely on your side.

Americans are tired of the gutter politics. Look at the Clinton impeachment. All of that ugliness and his Veep STILL wins the popular vote (and most likely the election, but let's no go there right now).

Sure the issue hurt Kerry with vets. However, there is plenty of time to gain back that ground. Those vets will be won back, and plenty others will cross over to our side, as the fetid stink of what the * folks and Rove have done to McCain, Cleland, and now Kerry bubbles up.

This actually may help Kerry. Imagine this line, "Bush uses our soldiers, whether it is to die in Iraq or to lie at home, then breaks America's covenant with them when they need America the most. He scores cheap political points by saying he'll bring the troops home, hoping we won't notice that homecoming is 10 years away. And while he argues about Vietnam, everyday our brave men and women are dying in Iraq."

Slam f-ing dunk!

[Democat]

32. I hope you are right

Maybe there is some big plan to use this against Bush, but I still don't think so. I think the Kerry campaign was hit with a punch they didn't see coming (at least they didn't realize how hard it was going to hit them) and now their trying their best to fight back.

Hopefully I'm wrong and you are right! :)

[Norquist Nemesis]

33. I thought maybe...till this morning

Listening to CSPAN, one of the first callers on open phones (claims she's "one of those so-called swing voters) said she hadn't fully made up her mind yet. Then she said she has really lost her respect for CSPAN over the last few months because "none of the newsmedia are trying to find out the truth!!!" She says she's leaning toward Bush because "they've made this all about Bush, not the truth!" (She's getting more ranty as she rambles on to say) "None of the newsmedia have talked to any of the swift boat people. It's about the truth!"

She tells the host "the question of the day is obviously slanted against George Bush." Host Steve then counters to say we're asking if the ads make a difference, how is that slanting? She makes another lame comment and he counters by running of a list of appearances and articles starting with having John O'Neill on the program in order to give the whole story.

Her first reaction is an audible sigh, then a repeat of "it's about the truth!" Steve ends up with "thank you for your call " as it's obvious the woman wasn't listening.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. C-Span Is Not A Representative Sample...

and Democrats masquerading as Republicans and Republicans masquerading as Democrats call in to attack the party they are opposed to because they think it gives them more credibility...

"I cast my first vote for Abraham Lincoln and now I'm voting for Kerry."


Right....



"I cast my first my first vote for Old Hickory, Andrew Jackson, and now I'm voting for Bush...


Right...


Undecided voters... My ass...........

[Guaranteed]

40. Man, you've gotta understand that at least 40% of the people

are going to vote for Bush. That's at LEAST 2 out of 5 people, probably closer to 2.2 or 2.3. So about half of the comments you hear from people are going to be pro-Bush, anti-Kerry. You can't let that fact kill your morale. You just gotta chalk it up to the idiocy of the public, and keep pushing forward.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Guaranteed]

39. The bigger this gets, the better for us!

That's right, Rove! Just keep throwing chips into the pot with your jack-high.

As long as we're hammering it into the public's brain that Kerry is a war hero, we're not having to explain his IWR vote.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Good Point...

Kerry hasn't handled that well...


Nobody's perfect.....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. Well- Fox Is Even Coming Around..

They are talking about Cordier and the Rood guy...

[NoBorders]

46. yes. most stories now about sbvt credibility, motives

Hopefully the media will start to feel burned by these guys and start to go after them, since now there's more solid fodder to take them down.

BUT, it has taken KE off message, which is bad. They're not getting the msg out about the enconomy and Iraq, but instead responding to these ads. But oth when we see Kerry responding forcefullly, it shows he's no wuss.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. This Gives Kerry A Chance

to remind voters of how the Pukes dirtied up McCain and are now trying to embrace him....

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

48. Magic 8 Ball says:

THE ANSWER IS UNCLEAR (but I voted yes)

[mconvente]

49. Seems kinda iffy

Obvious the SBVL are cronies to the Bush administration. But it's just the nature of American people to be quick on the bit. For example (this is a true story that hit right in my town):

A newspaper report stated my former highschool principal was allegedly "caught" with child pornography on his computer at school and home and had tried to purchase access to a child pornography site (which was an FBI sting site). Well without any true facts coming out the school basically told him to F-off and my nasty vice principal is now our principal. Well turns out two years later that it was all a mistake and somehow or another he wasn't guilty of anything (I don't really know all the details, but it's part of my point). Well even though he was cleared of all alleged charges, his life and reputation is ruined from that incident of a little over two years ago.

My point is that regardless of the fact that these claims by SBVL are completely false, the damage has been done (just look above to that post with the 90 year old lady). Because it took about a week to get true documents and accurate statements from veterans who were actually with Kerry during the swift boat mission (IE - that editor from the Tribune), that's already a week of negative PR for the Kerry campaign. And all the renegade Repugs just revel in the fact that they can attack Kerry on his top character trait - which is that under pressure and strife, he triumphed greatly.

I want to vote "Yes" in having faith in the American people, but when 40% (maybe more) of the country would support Bush if he shot a man pointblank, I don't know if I can put my faith in all the American people.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. The Ninety Year Old Lady In This Thread Hasn't Voted For A Dem Since FDR.

The worse the charge the harder it is to shake....


Saying Kerry lied or embellished his war record is not in the same league with saying somebody digs child pornography...


None of us DUers believe we can convert the Bush Kool Aid drinkers but we do think the 10% of the folks in the middle can be reached...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. up