Obama has DEEPLY disappointed me (re: Wes Clark)

[Stinky The Clown]

"Rejected" Clark's statements about Captain Combover????????????

"Disavows" Clark's statements about Captain Combover????????????

What a chickenshit, whistle-assed, cowardly, stance.

Clark was one hundred percent right.

How many more people will the campaign throw over the side?

I'm sorry, but this pisses me right the fuck off.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/06/30/obama-rejects-clarks-statement/

[polichick]

1. You're not alone.

[Political Tiger]

87. I wonder if Republicans are eating their own like some Dems are?

Although Republicans hate McCain, they are smart enough not to tear him apart. That's why they keep winning. Think about it.

[JRH_Mom]

138. Yeah

Do you know how many "republicans" aren't going to vote for McCain because he's just as "left" as the rest of them? I grew up in a conservative household. They aren't willing to vote for him and they are vocal about it. They sure as hell aren't ready to vote for Obama, but they are going to set this election out, and they'll tell anyone about it. Yeah - I know they aren't the news people, but I think we're going to win, big time.

[inna]

140. very good point, actually. nt

[bbgrunt]

148. are you talking about DUer's or Obama? twisted irony bounces back to you.

[phillysuse]

The Obama campaign phone number is 866-675-2008

Call them and tell them how you feel.
I also told them they could forget about a contribution. My money will be going to Congressional races.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

122. That's brilliant! What good would withholding donations do? n/t

[lebkuchen]

165. Should we focus on Dole's opponent in NC and Franken in MN instead?

That's where I'm headed.

[ecstatic]

2. Something tells me he didn't see the actual interview and was reacting

to soundbites. Which is unfortunate.

[JuniperLea]

66. Much like far too many DUers...

I watched it on Sunday... and I read transcripts... Clark was spot on and gave McCain all due props... but none he wasn't due, as it should be.

Obama could have easily distanced himself from the comments without throwing Clark under a bus... it's getting crowded under there... Clark, Rev. Wright, Obama's Granny...

[lebkuchen]

164. Yeah, and amateurish, too.

And that's what scares me most. After Bush, the country needs calm and mature, not slash and burn.

[JuniperLea]

167. Smells like pandering to me...

I think he would have done well to keep to his principles... and voiced his principles... did we really hear them to begin with? That, sadly, is now a question as well.

[lebkuchen]

169. I'd really like to see Clark as Dept. of Defense Sec.

Bush has eviscerated the military and Gates is only aiding and abetting. The soldiers need relief NOW.

[JuniperLea]

170. Amen!

The military used to be self-contained... that is the piece of the puzzle BushCo forgot when they thought the USA would profit across the board with war. There are all sorts of military duties that are now being done by Halliburton and its various subsidiaries instead of the military itself. Not only were these jobs necessary for soldier upkeep, but the rotating jobs gave everyone time in the kitchen, the laundry, etc., and away from combat. The military is broken because it wasn't used the way it was supposed to be used.

During WWII, there were MORE jobs available in the US, everyone worked, everyone volunteered, everyone grew vegetables and saved bacon grease... everyone sacreficed... FDR got factories retooled in a heartbeat to start working on the war effort. Bush forgot all about the war effort; he forgot that the only way America profits is if Americans are put to work.

[gcomeau]

88. Something tells me a lot of people here forgot who we're dealing with...

...and that Obama, unlike many a DU poster, apparently knows that the majority of the COUNTRY will not have seen the interview, but rather soundbites and pundits talking ABOUT the interview... and that that is the reality he is operating in. That is the frame that most voters will be evaluating his statements on the subject on.

And don't think for a second that Clark doesn't know that too. He went out and said something that needed to be said when the candidate COULD NOT say it. Not would not, COULD not. Obama would be eviscerated if he backed this line of argument and it doesn't matter one little teeny tiny bit whether it's true or not. Every person here should know how the media in this country operates, and if you don't where the hell have you been? Obama says one single word that can be interpreted as an attack on the War Hero's War Record and it's the only thing we'll be hearing about in every MSM political story for the next two weeks, and all of it will be "Was Obama Justified In Questioning The Military Service and Sacrifice of Senator McCain? What do you think panel of partisan hacks at least half of which are selected to be guaranteed to skin him on the issue no matter what the reality is?"

Obama is dealing this in exactly the way he should be dealing with it.

[guidod]

158. Very good post!!

A lot of voters, here at DU, better start looking at the larger picture instead of running with their knee jerk reaction. Obama did EXACTLY what he had to do so it wouldn't look like he's attacking McCain on his service record. That's a battle the republicans would rip Obama apart with. Once again, good post.

[elleng]

163. You MAY be right.

I'll 'judge' him when I see his future relationship with General Clark.

[JuniperLea]

168. All the more reason to walk his own talk...

And not give the pundits fodder.

[uponit7771]

3. It sounds like Obama doesn't want to get near disperaging McSames military experience. That's been..

...consistent theme throughout his run against McSame...don't know why this would get you goin...

[Rosa Luxemburg]

69. Only Clark can criticize Bush's McCain, maybe Clark would be a good VP?

Then Obama can get on with the real policies that affect us at home and abroad while Clark does the military stuff against the GOP?

[GoldieAZ49]

4. So do you think it takes Clark off the VP list?

I did at first, but, maybe not.

[Alexander]

5. No. Remember, Obama already picked his VP's chief of staff.

That shows that Obama is going to control his VP, not the other way around.

This could be Obama's way of warning Clark not to wander off the reservation if he's chosen as VP.

[SuperTrouper]

36. I think that Clark is at the top of the VP list

and the GOP will have seizures of anger and primeval screams when Clark is announced as VP

[shadowknows69]

63. I do to and I think he'd be a great choice

I don't think this changes that equation any.

[Doremus]

132. At first I thought "This man MUST BE VP"

Afterwards I thought "This man MUST BE VP".

Sorry, I fail to see the outrage. Just the opposite. I was, and am, very proud of Gen. Clark for speaking the truth.

Truth, the strength to say it AND stand by it gains my respect.
Repudiating the truth teller to score political points makes me want to barf.


:puke: << Me, thinking of Obama throwing Gen. Wesley Clark under the bus. (The space under that bus is getting awfully crowded....)

[warpigs]

6. "Obama spokesman Bill Burton said in a statement."

Obama didn't say anything. Get over it.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

13. Do you know why it's called

"spokesman"?????
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spokesman
spokesman
One entry found.

spokesman


Main Entry:
spokes·man
Pronunciation:
\ˈspōks-mən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
probably irregular from spoke, obsolete past participle of speak
Date:
1537
: a person who speaks as the representative of another or others often in a professional capacity
— spokes·man·ship \-ˌship\ noun

[Major Hogwash]

109. Clark is not a spokesman for Obama. He said that today, he was not speaking for Obama's campaign

Although, it doesn't matter, and everything that Clark said was true, he wasn't speaking with the official seal of approval for the Obama campaign, not really.

[Freddie Stubbs]

7. Obama is taking the high road

So far, his political instincts have proven to be very useful.

[jgraz]

28. How'd that work out for Kerry?

Fuckin Democrats never learn.

[Zynx]

31. We went at Bush's lack of NG service and got nothing. Nothing at all.

[jgraz]

32. Who's "WE"? Kerry didn't do shit.

[Zynx]

39. Many many surrogates did. Bush never went at Kerry by your standard.

[jgraz]

40. How many Kerry surrogates accused Bush of faking his war record?

If they did, I must have missed it.

[Zynx]

42. I know at a minimum Max Cleland did.

[jgraz]

52. The Repugs had fucking PURPLE BAND-AIDS. What did we have?

The attacks on Kerry's war record were coordinated across the party. This was THE issue for the Repugs and they went after it with a vengeance.

Meanwhile, the Democrats were running a convention where no criticism of Bush was allowed. WTF??

[grasswire]

147. only those who had no platform

Thousands of emails, faxes, phone calls, letters, personal visits were made by citizen-activists trying to break that story in the mainstream press. It was heartbreaking. The story finally was broken when Senator Bob Kerrey called a press conference on the Friday before the 2000 election to challenge Bush to explain his National Guard record. The same afternoon, Rove leaked the DUI story and obliterated the news from Kerrey. The rest is history.

We citizens couldn't break through. Couldn't make it happen. Now we have blogs and national attention to citizen reporting.

[Peregrine Took]

54. Brilliant! You took the words off my keyboard. We should run RIGHT AT

THEM - right down the middle - at the point they think is their strongest.

[lojasmo]

84. Kerry took public funding and got creamed. N/T

[jgraz]

120. So your point is.... he couldn't afford the matched set of balls?

What's Obama's excuse?

[lojasmo]

133. Sigh. N/T

[sufrommich]

110. God,thank you. That dreaded deja vu. nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

124. Kerry didn't fight back swiftly and hard enough against the Shitboat Liars.

He allowed the lies to fester and percolate in the minds of Americans. I will never forget hearing Liberals calling Kerry a flip-flopper. Ain't that some shit? I think Obama has learned from Kerry's mistakes. You can't compare the two. Obama has indeed benefitted from hitting back quickly and with confidence. I'm pissed that he even has to play these games, but when you're dealing with the Repukes and a corporate media that loves them, what can you do? I will argue that Obama's hands were tied. He's dirt if he defends Clark; he's dirt if he doesn't. Nothing will ever please Democrats; that's why we always lose.

The Repukes, on the other hand, HATE McSame, but they are defending him to their deaths. I have always been jealous of how disciplined the Repukes are. Disgusting and disciplined. x(

[politicasista]

142. Kerry did respond, but the whore media buried it.

You must have missed this link. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_oet&address=358x2555

Kerry did respond, but the media refuse to air his response. Instead, giving the liars more air time when they had all the facts they needed to debunk the liars.

The big difference now is that Obama's responses to the attacks/smears are being covered by the media and that Obama now has surrogates like Kerry, Clark, Biden, McCaskill, etc playing the role for him that so few did in 04. That's the big difference. It's amazing here that people complain and moan about the media, yet buy into the GOP spin when it's not their chosen one that is smeared.

I am supporting and voting for Obama and have not posted much in GDP until after the primaries, but it's about time that some of his supporters show some respect for one of his best surrogates rather than constantly taking potshots at a good Dem that is going out on a limb working his behind off to get Obama elected. That is a turnoff and does not help Obama, the Democrats or his cause. I for one appreciate Obama having an open ear and learning the mistakes from 04.




JMHO

[Freddie Stubbs]

136. Fortunately Senator Obama is no John Kerry

Obama has shown that he has the ability to overcome adversity.

He defeated Hillary Clinton for the nomination after a long and drawn-out primary process. Kerry won the nomination by being the second choice when Dean's campaign imploded.

[politicasista]

143. No, but at least he shows more respect for his surrogate than some here do n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

149. When surrogates go off message, the candidate must clarify what

he and the campaign want, not what the surrogate wants.

[Breeze54]

51. No, he doesn't want to go there because he doen't have

a military record of his own, so if he seems to be attacking one that does
have one, he will be attacked for attacking. It's seems pretty simple to me.

[polmaven]

76. Except, that isn't really

what General Clark DID! He actually gave McCain due respect for his service. He simply said that serving in the military doesn't automatically qualify someone to be president.

I haven't seen Senator Obama's statement yet....Did he "reject" what Clark said or was it just a statement agreeing with the respect for McCain's service?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Oh, I'm very concerned.

First Samantha Powers, now this.

Oh, what a world!

[shireen]

9. i'm pretty steamed about it too, and please check out VOTEVETS PETITION

I'm pissed too. Wes deserves better. All he did was clearly and succinctly say the obvious.
I'll keep supporting Obama for president, but with even less enthusiasm.

VoteVets has a petition, please see
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6430559

[Stinky The Clown]

12. I signed it already

I also called the campaign

[Ian David]

11. Al Gore supported "The Clipper Chip."

Al Gore supported "The Clipper Chip."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6427460&mesg_id=6427460

[ram2008]

14. this is why we lose elections

We lose elections because we let the GOP paint the Democratic Party as anti-military. The Obama campaign did what it had to do, if he hadn't the media would have a shitstorm, and you could bet Obama would take a hit in the polls.

Even if Clark was right if Obama would have defended it you could bet he would've taken a beating. It would shift the discussion to a patriotism/ experience debate and Obama would most certainly lose it. This is the last thing we need.

If people could win an election without pandering, and without playing nice guy then Dennis Kucinich or Ron Paul would be president.

[JuniperLea]

62. Oh bull

The media creates its own shitstorms regardless.

Obama could have distanced himself from Clark very easily without disowning him.

[ram2008]

81. but he didn't disown Clark

How did he disown Clark? I dont think he did all he did was distance himself from the comments which is all he had to do.

We need to stop getting so outraged over everything, Obama is pivoting to the center for now, and he will probably continue to do so until election day.

[goclark]

130. Sunday quarterbacking at DU

:(

I agree with you, we do not hardly know what is going on at the Obama Top Level.

We just think they should do everything WE believe.

We are not in charge!

He is running this ship and he has done a brilliant job so far.

[JuniperLea]

152. Distancing himself from truth is outrage worthy, imho

That is the bottom line. He distanced himself from truth. He could have played this hand far better.

[polmaven]

77. How can anyone portray

General Wesley Clark as anti military?

[Wickerman]

15. Clark acted as attack dog and said what Obama couldn't

Like a good soldier Wes saluted smartly and marched up that hill. This was a play from the Republican playbook and Wes played it wonderfully and Obama is seeing it thru. The difference between Wes and the Ollie North type situation is that Wes probably developed the plan and executed it where Ollie, in his actions, simply followed orders.

[Growler]

22. I totally agree n/t

[TwilightGardener]

16. How many people did his campaign throw over the side? Just the people

who blew it. Power had to go, she said something true but totally inappropriate. Johnson had to go, he had some shaky dealings with Countrywide. Who else? Am I missing somebody? Hillary got rid of/distanced herself from a number of people who said stupid or controversial things. So did McCain. Why should Obama be an exception? He didn't trash Clark, or "get rid of him", just disagreed with his remarks so as not to get drawn into the GOP/Media Hissyfit Du Jour. Whoopee--big deal.

[woolldog]

17. Clark was the perfect guy to question McCain's national security

claims. If Obama doesn't want Clark to do it, then no one can, which means McCain's POW = good commander in chief meme will go unchallenged all through the election?!

Ridiculous.

[TwilightGardener]

25. Obama isn't going to touch McCain's service with a ten foot pole. Never.

George Bush didn't, either. You let people say what they will say, and then you distance yourself to keep your hands clean. That's how it's done.

[Peregrine Took]

57. Then he's going to have it hung around his waist like ballast that will sink

his campaign.

How exactly do you muddy up and run against a person you think is a "hero?"

[JuniperLea]

65. You can easily distance without throwing people under a bus

Clark was right. Obama screwed this one up just like he screwed up the Rev. Wright deal. Thankfully, Clark isn't an emotional type like a preacher is, so I doubt Clark will try to have his comeuppance.

Obama didn't learn his lessons well. Ooops he did it again.

[Donna Zen]

127. No one is asking him to touch McCain's miltary creds.

Nevertheless, McCain is way, way, ahead on matters of national security. Is this then the campaign strategy...let McCain morph being a POW into being a foreign policy/national security expert?

[Apollo11]

157. No one except the OP and everyone here who agreed with it

There is NO way that Obama can be associated with anyone making the argument that John McCain's military experience is inadequate for someone running for the Presidency.

[Donna Zen]

174. That is not what he said

But if you keep repeating the MSM little memes then maybe lots of people will think it's true.

[Hippo_Tron]

64. It was a coordinated effort between Obama and Clark

You are absolutely right, that Clark is the guy to question McCain's national security credentials. Obama, on the other hand, has never served and so he can't get away with making remarks about McCain's time as a POW.

So Clark goes out and says it, and then Obama distances himself from it but the American People still heard Clark say it.

Bush distanced himself from the Swift Boat Liars but they still destroyed Kerry. This is how the game is played.

[Sparkly]

100. No, it wasn't.

If it were, the Obama camp's response would have been FAR more nuanced and strategically leveraged. Not just, "we reject it."

They knew what he'd say -- there's no WAY they didn't.

They accepted what he'd say -- there no WAY they didn't.

Then they balked after the RNC's distortions, in an awkward, inelegant, strategically USELESS way.

If that's the campaign's view of "coordination," it's pretty scary. It looks more like, "Run it up the flagpole, and let's see. OMIGOD they're coming after us! Run!!!"

[Major Hogwash]

103. We don't know that for sure.

Unfortunately, we aren't privvy to what all goes on behind the scenes.
We don't know that Clark told Obama he was going to say that stuff.
And we also don't know if Obama gave him the green light to do it.
Frankly, I was surprised that Clark was so forthcoming about McCain's experience because I agree with him, getting shot down in a plane and being a POW doesn't qualify anyone to be the President.

But, hopefully Obama will not totally disregard everything Clark says about McCain.
Or else he'll distance himself from Clark so Clark can call McCain McChickenshit more often.

Everyone knows, everyone, that McCain has flip-flopped on all of the issues these last 4 years, so if it really needs to be done, then Clark should just call him a liar as well.

[Major Hogwash]

105. Clark just said on Abrams that he wasn't talking for the Obama campaign.

But, he also said that he was right for saying what he did.
"Getting shot down in a plane doesn't automatically qualify one to be President."

[Sparkly]

119. He didn't have to TELL Obama or Obama's campaign

They pay attention. He's been saying it for some time.

[BearSquirrel2]

155. Neither does running NATO ...

Well, neither does running NATO. The point is the tone.

[Hippo_Tron]

113. What would your strategic nuanced response have been?

Because mine would have been, "Senator Obama rejects General Clark's comments."

I highly doubt that they weren't expecting RNC and McCain outrage over this. David Axelrod isn't an amateur.

[Sparkly]

115. I've written it over and over this evening.

There are MANY shades of nuance inbetween "Totally agree with everything" and "Totally reject everything." We've seen this before MANY TIMES.

[Hippo_Tron]

121. The mainstream media doesn't leave much room open for nuance

Obama didn't call on General Clark to apologize and he certainly didn't apologize himself. Obama did the right thing.

[Sparkly]

125. Obama's camp was given a gift of a silver bullet with 4 stars backing it up

and they went, "OmiGOD, look what the RNC is doing now!! This thing could EXPLODE any SECOND!!" So they threw it away and ran. That's how I see it.

[Clovis Sangrail]

18. Why didn't they just say

'Wes Clark speaks for himself and isn't a member of our campaign'

OR.. reiterate Wes's statement in the form of a question.
'Are you saying that being a POW qualifies somebody to be president?'

Somebody needs to start giving Obama some better advice.

[FrenchieCat]

45. Clark is part of the campaign....didn't you know?

[Clovis Sangrail]

80. really? what postiion does he hold in the Obama campaign? /nt

[FrenchieCat]

19. Making this about Clark vs. Obama is useful how? How does this

make Clark get done what Clark has stated he wants to do? Get a Democrat into the WH.
How does this help Wes Clark combat the accusations from the media that he is in any way swiftboating John McCain.

Contact the media instead. They are the ones doing the distorting. They are the ones you need to be attacking.

CONTACTS:
Morning Joe Contact page - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789 /
Chris Matthews [e-mail]
Race to the White House contact page http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23598392
Rachel Maddows [e-mail]
Keith Olbermann [e-mail]
Dan Abrams Contact page http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19599749 /
(Fill in the "Beat the Press" feedback section in lower right column)

Also:
CNN contact page: http://www.cnn.com/feedback/cnntv /
If you look at the bottom of that page, there is all of the anchor's names. Just click on the name, and it takes you to an individual contact page for that commentator.

FUCK Fox. I can't even start with them.

[Growler]

20. I'm not sure why you are upset...

This way, the meme that McCain is an empty flight-suit gets a lot of play AND Obama can stay above it all.

Seriously, what's the problem? :shrug:

[Clark2008]

44. But that's not the play it's getting.

It's getting the "Clark is a stupid meanie for stating the obvious" play.

[BeyondGeography]

21. I don't have a problem with either of them

Those who let the media get off without a scratch for manufacturing controversy, that's another story.

[anonymous171]

23. Don't let them divide us. That's the entire plan. nt

[Tatiana]

24. This is strategy, but Team O did not finesse their part as well as they should have.

The goal should have been to stay above the fray and continue to assert that they respect McCain's service. HOWEVER, Wes Clark's military credentials and bonifides should have been included/reiterated in the statment (to reinforce the idea that Clark is ABSOLUTELY QUALIFIED to make the comments he did) and the campaign should have emphasized that through his service to this country, Clark is more than entitled to express his own opinions.

[autorank]

26. Hey buddy

No need to get pissed off. Here's a helpful "tool"

1. Receive new information based on past evidence. Expect nothing from public figures.

2. Make knowledge the highest value. That way any new information is an addition to your
information base. Information is power. Knowing is the highest value.

Having said that, I must say that Clark's comment was dead on target. It is something that
had to be tossed out there. Real balls to toss that into the hopper. The guy's a mensch*.

:toast:

* A person having admirable characteristics, such as fortitude and firmness of purpose:
He radiates the kind of fundamental decency that has a name in Yiddish; he's a mensch." (James Atlas)
"An extremely bright guy who takes no bull shit." (autorank)

[jgraz]

27. Welcome to John Kerry 2.0

Leave it to the Democrats to find a way to fuck up a sure thing.

[Peregrine Took]

55. Kerry Dukakis Obama. Was it ever thus? n/t

[mtnsnake]

102. Yup, you nailed it

Not only that, but instead of staying tough and going on the offensive, we roll over and apologize for being wimps. Oh well, some things never change. The Right Wing media baited us on this one, and we took the bait, hook, line, and sinker.

[yodermon]

29. Meanwhile, the media keeps talking about Clark's statement

the more the quote "McCain getting shot down doesn't qualify him for president" gets repeated, the better, IMHO, I don't care what the context is.

As an added bonus, Obama has just inoculated himself against being criticized for "using" this talking point.

Political Judo.

Oh i'm sorry, you were fuming.

[Stinky The Clown]

34. In case you're head is permanently out of the sunshine ...........

That's not what's getting repeated. What IS getting repeated is the Obama campaign rejected the statement of one military guy about another. And how what Clark said was 'disgusting'. And how it is without merit.

Oh I'm sorry, you were snarking.

[yodermon]

48. .

[smoogatz]

30. You're not getting it.

The whole thing has clearly been orchestrated. Both players--Obama and Clark--are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing. I don't see why this is so hard for DUers to understand. Obama can not, repeat CAN NOT confront McCain directly on his military record. he can only do so through surrogates like Clark who have equivalent or greater military cred. When said surrogates ask the obvious questions about McCain (i.e., does his suffering as a POW qualify him to be CinC?), Obama must "reject" such questions as "attacks" on McCain's service. Which they very clearly and rightly are, which is as it should be.

Go back and study Bush's role during the whole Swift Boat mess and then tell me again how Obama's doing the wrong thing.

[TexanDem]

33. I agree -- it's a big disappointment. Obama thru Clark under the bus. Clark was dead on!>>

Clark didn't say McCain wasn't patriotic. He simply said his military record didn't give him any special leadership abilities. And that's the damn truth. Obama is too flattering and consiliatory and it's getting annoying. I've been an avid supporter, and still am -- but this trait is really getting on my nerves.

[smoogatz]

37. As I said in another thread, Clark isn't under the bus--he IS the bus.

And the front bumper is currently embedded in McCain's ass. Obama will not confront McCain's war record directly: he can't, he won't, and it ain't gonna happen. What he will do (and I'm very impressed that they've already started floating this balloon) is send out guys with more military cred than McCain to attack him and say exactly what Clark said, which will be read by everyone as an attack on McCain's service, which it was. The truth is that McCain's service was not uncomplicated: he got shot down, which is a failure, he didn't so much as try to escape, which he's required by duty to do as an officer, and he collaborated with the enemy, albeit under torture. That's not the sort of thing that in past wars would rise to "hero" stature--in fact in my father's generation the suggestion that McCain was a hero would have been thought ludicrous. What Obama's going after here is not McCain's qualification to be CinC, which is a matter of opinion; it's his greater strength, which is the myth of his "heroism." And that's political genius, IMO.

[TexanDem]

67. Interesting theory... >>

First, I apologize as I seem to have misplaced my comment. I though I was responding to the OP, but had yours open. It obviously doesn't respond to you. I'll try to be more careful.
But besides that -- I do like your comments about McCain being less than a hero. I might even use it! :)) I know they do the 'bad cop/good cop" routine, but it sure looks like it's discrediting Clark. I've been hoping that Clark would play a prominant role in Obama's cabinet (hoping he wins of course), either VP or Secy of D. With this strong repudiation of Clark, it seems that make that kind of an appointment difficult now. Besides, I'm really getting tired of Obama being so complimentary. He overdid the praises with Hillary and Bill, and he's overdoing it with McCain when McCain, in fact, needs this kind of "vetting." All that sugar just isn't digesting well.

[Raine]

43. Agree

too many people don't seem to understand how politics work. This whole thing has been played perfectly by Obama. :thumbsup:

[smoogatz]

46. So far, so good.

What's important is to start chipping away at McCain's military advantage early, and they're doing that. Attack their (alleged) strengths. And you never know--this is the kind of thing that could drive McCain into a foaming fit in public, which would be fun to watch.

[Sparkly]

58. I don't buy that for a second.

The Obama camp's response was WAY off base for such a strategy. The right response would NOT have been to reject the remarks as attacks, but to distance themselves from them while leaving open the question of their validity, and if anything, showing respect for the surrogate's perspective.

[smoogatz]

68. I'm not going to fight with you in this thread, either.

Sorry.

[Sparkly]

85. I reply to arguments I read, not screennames, usually.

Didn't realize I was arguing with you elsewhere.

[smoogatz]

86. Not that I wasn't enjoying our spirited exchange.

It was just getting repetitive.

[mopinko]

35. "we have a tightly wrapped message. " david axelrod.

this is brand obama stinky. this is what they have done to defuse rightwing talking points from the beginning. i feel for ya. i want all these fuckers taken out and shot. but, that is not brand obama. not chickenshit, diplomatic. i believe him when he says he doesn't do cower. i also believe in brand obama.
sorry that you are surprised, but most of us knew that when they got on the bus. just not gonna aid and abet "mudslinging", even by the largest-fox-news-watching-spin yardstick. not gonna go there.
ya gotta get used to it, stinky.

[JVS]

38. You're joking, right?

Obama has a choice to keep this campaign issues focused or personality focused. And America has a much bigger place in it's heart for a former POW than for a black man who has risen above what a lot of people deem to be his proper place in life.

[AZBlue]

41. Except that Obama is about a different political tone. He's not about attacks.

That's not his style.

[Raine]

47. Clark is correct and so is Obama

they are both handling their parts exactly the way they should.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

50. "cheesedicks"? Never heard that one before. Is it a wisconsin insult or something?

[Peregrine Took]

59. Ever go to Wisconsin? Really, they put cheese in everything.

I guess they enjoy packin' an artery.

When you say "no thanks" they look at you like you are nuts and seem a little miffed, too, like you have insulted their state.

[Adelante]

131. The "cult" - we're back to the "cult"

I guess I must be in a double-cult.

[Peregrine Took]

53. He's disappointed me around the block and then some for the past

several weeks and didn't I read he is against the restoration of the Fairness Doctrine??

We will never be in actual control again until we get our message out there on a grand scale.

When people really hear our two scenarios and do so over and over it will be all over for the knuckle dragger's.

[zulchzulu]

56. Is this what you want?

REPORTER: Senator Obama, what statement do you wish to say about what Wesley Clark said about John McCain's miltary record?

OBAMA: What Clark says is his own business. I have no comment.

(THIS is the Kiss of DEATH in media relations...keeping the story alive)

REPORTER: Senator Obama, what statement do you wish to say about what Wesley Clark said about John McCain's miltary record?

OBAMA: McCain was only a captain when his plane shot down. That's not experience to be President.

(This would be an absolute political disaster where the media would gang up on Obama regarding military service...)

REPORTER: Senator Obama, what statement do you wish to say about what Wesley Clark said about John McCain's miltary record?

OBAMA: Wesley Clark is a good man and so is John McCain. I like them both.

(As bad as the no comment strategy)

REPORTER: Senator Obama, what statement do you wish to say about what Wesley Clark said about John McCain's miltary record?

OBAMA: What Clark is where I stand. McCain better stop complaining.

(Boom! Goodbye campaign...)

What do you suggest? Seriously?

[Sparkly]

83. I'll give that a try.

I'm an amateur, so I'm sure Obama's team could come up with something far better....

REPORTER: Senator Obama, what statement do you wish to say about what Wesley Clark said about John McCain's miltary record?

OBAMA: General Clark has a right to his view of John McCain's credentials. I'm running on my record of judgment when it comes to foreign policy, and believe I made correct decisions when my opponent made disastrous ones. He wants to continue the policies that have this country in a mess, and I will set the country back on course when I'm president of the United States.

(And yes, General Clark's comments DO make a good story to keep alive!)

[zulchzulu]

89. Unfortunately, that response is the near equivalent of "No Comment"

When dealing with media relations, a "no comment" answer is the equivalent of shooting blanks at the target.

The best bet is to do a variation on "good cop/bad cop". Let the seed be planted, but act like it wasn't your fault and make sure there are no traces otherwise.

[Sparkly]

91. The seed was NOT PLANTED.

That's my point. They could have used this forward, sideways, and upside-down, but instead they dropped it and let the RNC's distortion stand.

[Kahuna]

92. Um.. but as the OP stated, the questioner would not be satisfied with

that reply. And if you really pay attention to the way they hound Democrats for "gotcha" answers, your response would only invoke more questions. But it's nice to have fantasies too. :hi:

[Sparkly]

114. Strategists do NOT think, "Oh no, they'd ask more questions if we say that!"

You keep reiterating your point. You shift every question back to your point. "They might say" or "They might ask" is NOT a reason to respond as they did.

[renate]

139. I think that would have been spot on

And like you said in a later post, follow-up questions would just have been an opportunity to reiterate this statement, or anything else Obama wanted to say.

Your scenario would have been perfect, seriously. :applause:

[Hippo_Tron]

60. I don't know why... It was a coordinated effort between Clark and Obama

Clark did not misspeak on Face the Nation, he knew exactly what he was saying and I am sure he discussed it with Obama's strategists beforehand. The strategy is you have your surrogate go out and say something nasty and then distance yourself from it.

It's like McCain's surrogate saying that a terrorist attack will benefit him and then having McCain distance himself from it. That wasn't an accident and then a retreat, it was planned.

[merci_me]

72. Excuse me, but...........

McCain's surrogate DID say a terrorist attack would benefit him and McCain distanced himself from it.

Wes Clark NEVER questioned McCain's patriotism. What he said was his service was not did not, in and of itself, qualify McCain to be CiC. Is Obama's statement an admission that Clark is wrong and it does qualify McCain to be CiC? Is Obama saying McCain, by reason of his service should be the president?

God forbid that phone rings at 3am. One way of the other, I don't think we now have or will have anyone to answer.

[Hippo_Tron]

75. I never said that Clark questioned his patriotism

He did push the "McCain's military service" hot button that the Obama campaign very much wants to push but doesn't want to get Obama within a mile of.

So they send General Clark to do it for Obama. It's really that simple.

[Stinky The Clown]

96. And you know that for sure ..... how, exactly?

You have an opinion, and that's fine. The OP is my opinion. Your reply carries no more weight.

[Hippo_Tron]

111. You're right it is an opinion...

But it's based on my observations of how campaigns are run. Almost everything said is carefully coordinated and staged so that as little as left to chance as possible.

I feel that those who are accusing Obama of throwing Clark under the bus are ignoring how campaigns work.

[Clovis Sangrail]

79. The Obama campaign sent Clark out to say this?

why do you think this?

[shadowknows69]

61. I have to agree on this one

If it's strategy to get it out there while keeping his hands clean I guess I understand, but I agree we have to tackle this sacred cow of McCain's service. Honorably, but honestly.

[Kahuna]

70. Um...How many elections have you seen? Clark did what surrogates do..

kinda like good cop, bad cop. Get it now.

And another thing, if you think Obama is a panty-waist you haven't really been paying attention. He wouldn't be where he is now if he was a sissy.

[Stinky The Clown]

97. Gee, Kahuna, its my first campaign. Thanks for setting me straight ......

I see it pretty simply.

"RW talking points good."

[Kahuna]

171. Glad to do it. Anytime. nt

[Thrill]

71. What did you expect him to say? The media loves McCain. He's been made the victim all day

and then he played the victim at his press conference.

[SmileyRose]

73. This is a Presidential election. - that's how it works.

It's the surrogates who say what the candidate can't. The candidate can reject it and look squeeky clean - but the message still gets out there.

[inna]

74. given that he's considering Gates as his Defense Secretary....

... his throwing Wes under the bus might make more sense.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4232070.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797093


Clark (unlike Gates!!) would make an ideal Defense Secretary or Secretary of State, or even VP, IMO.

[Stinky The Clown]

98. If that's the plan, that's the dumbest fucking thing I ever heard

No .... Lieberman for VEEP is the dumbest thing I ever heard. This is second.

[inna]

134. re. the dumbest effing things....

"If that's the plan, that's the dumbest fucking thing I ever heard.
No .... Lieberman for VEEP is the dumbest thing I ever heard. This is second."


i agree with you completely.

but hey, admittedly Gates is no Rumsfeld. some people (even Dems) find redeeming qualities in him - not moi though.
he doesn't strike me as a particularly savory character, to say the least.
see this, for example: http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/110906.html

[Lord Helmet]

78. it was a coordinated good cop-bad cop routine

[Stinky The Clown]

99. You know that .............. how?

[LWolf]

82. The McCain campaign has obviously nailed a seriously weak spot for Obama.

I've read repeatedly at DU that Obama doesn't walk his talk; that he's talking "right" but will work "left." That we ought to just wait and expect him to act differently than he speaks. I've said before that I'm not comfortable with a candidate who says one thing and does another. I don't want to have to read him like a tarot deck to determine where he's going.

From the McCain campaign:

"We've learned we need to wait and see what Senator Obama actually does, rather than take him at his word."

We aren't even past the convention, and they've already nailed this one.

I can see why this pissed you off. I got pissed when he praised Ronald Reagan for moving us away from the "excesses" of the 60s and 70s.

[McCamy Taylor]

90. Obama has a right to speak his mind and so does Clarke. Chill.

[Stinky The Clown]

101. There's no 'e'

Here ............

[npincus]

93. Go have a beer!

We're THISCLOSE.

[NorthCarolina]

94. I suppose we can cross Clark off the VP list now

the media is now, as of today on MSNBC anyway, enthusiastically predicting Sebelius. I hope he picks a good solid Progressive like Sherrod Brown of OH to breathe some life and enthusiasm back into the party base.

On edit: typo

[Major Hogwash]

107. Clark would better serve in the cabinet anyway.

He's pretty solid on military affairs so I think he could be an advisor on the Iraq War, without actually being the Secretary of Defense.

[FrenchieCat]

95. I find it getting very interesting myself....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6433015

[Major Hogwash]

112. It doesn't help any though.

Their side gets their vets, our side gets our vets and then they go out and call each other names.
It's boring to me.
But, then, that's just me.

[David Zephyr]

104. Me, too.

It was uncalled for.

[Kaylee]

106. I think you are completely missing what is happening here.

I have heard more "analysis" of McCain's service and what it really means than I ever had. I actually heard about his poor ranking in school, horrible leadership qualities, soft assignments, and lost planes on "regular" drive-time radio today!

[polmaven]

108. OK, now I'm confused.

There must have been two different statements made on this issue. I said earlier in this thread that I had not yet heard either General Clark's Statement nor Senator Obama's.

I have now heard both, and I do not see where either one should be causing this uproar!

General Clark praised Senator McCain's military service to the hilt. He then questioned his qualifications to be president. He did not question his patriotism, and he did not demean his service or his actions as a POW.

Now granted, a spokesman for Senator Obama released a rejection of that statement (I am not sure if it was oral or written).

I listened to Senator Obama, though, and I heard him talk about patriotism, and did not hear him mention General Clark's name. If I had not been reading about this uproar, I would have said "good for him. He isn't going to allow anyone to question his patriotism, and he will not do that himself". Since General Clark had in no way questioned McCain's patriotism, I would never have put the two together.

Maybe it's me, but I just do not see it!

This is a ridiculous as the whole "Hillary was telling her hit men to assassinate Obama" meme.

We cannot let the MSM or the republicans set our agendas for us!

[quaker bill]

116. It is very simple

Barack does not need to attack McSame's war record. This election is not about Vietnam. Learn something folks, everytime we make it about VietNam, we lose. Honor the service, but then point out that it was 40 years ago, and we have problems right now that need better ideas than McSame is offering.

Bill Clinton did not win because he had a better military record, or because his opponents had lame military records. He won because he kept our eyes focused elsewhere.

Knocking down McCain's service does nothing toward the goal of winning the election. The better choice is to give the topic as little relevance as possible.

Obama should have dismissed Clark's comments, not because they are incorrect, but because it makes an issue where we don't want one. We do not want the conversation centered here.

[Sparkly]

117. It's not about Vietnam.

It's about the BASIS of McCain's claim to creds in military strategy, foreign policy expertise, and the whole aura of Republican Machismo.

It's so simple that everybody on DU, it seems, has some "brilliant theory" claiming an alternate view of what it's REALLY about, instead of what it obviously IS on face value. :eyes:

[quaker bill]

172. The point is

if you go there at all, then this is the argument we will have. It is the wrong place to go. Attempting to knock down McCain on the military service dimension is simply stupid. Even if you manage to flush the entire military dimension of McCain's resume, he still has decades of senate experience over Barack Obama. The point has never been about experience, it is about judgement. There is little or nothing about McCain's military career that addresses the judgement issue in any way remotely comparable to his vote for the war, and all the stuff he is proposing now.

We need to keep the focus on this century.

[Evergreen Emerald]

118. It is all politics. It was a planned attack by the Obama campaign

They are using the same strategy they did in the primary. Have a surrogate attack, while Obama stays above the fray. The message is out there, and Obama can distance himself from it.


The problem I see this time, is that the media is not lapdogging him this time. They are questioning rather than simply repeating. That muddies up the message. They are now talking about McCain and vietnam rather than McCain and Iraq. I do not think the attack is working this time.

[Dread Pirate KR Read]

123. Obama retreated and strengthened McCain tto suck up the air waves

Sadly, Obama weakened himself for not defending Clark for his blunt, honest and stark, plain straight-in-your-face truth --

McCain does not inherit claims on "executive level" foreign policy and national security experience because he was unfortunate enough to be a POW.

But McCain ought to claim credit for making poor decisions while on the SASC and failing to support PTSD coverage and greater veterans benefits.

[lukasahero]

126. DU - home of the "radical" left, right? General Clark did not disavow Michael Moore

when it was politically expedient for him to do so. General Clark did not disavow the "radical" left when push came to shove. General Clark did not disavow the gay community. General Clark continues to earn my full (bleeding-heart, Birkenstock-wearing, tree-hugging liberal) respect.

[Sparkly]

128. Hear, hear!

:applause:

[Tom Rinaldo]

135. Amen. n/t

[renate]

141. ditto that!

:applause:

[merci_me]

146. You said it! Clark's got starch! n/t

[DaDooRonRon]

129. Please understand - he is a CENTRIST

He is NOTHING like the fawning fan club here purport him to be. He's about as progressive as a throw rug.

There will be many more disappointments coming - he sits at the feet of Bill Clinton, aspires to be Bill Clinton, will play to the left while schmoozing the right like Bill Clinton.

All you have to do is watch the words that aren't part of the Rodney King speeches and check the group of folks he has hired to advise him.

It's all there - and it ain't pretty.

Don't get your hopes up.

[QC]

145. You're right--it's been perfectly obvious since the beginning.

For some reason, many people here convinced themselves that--contrary to all evidence--Obama was some kind of progressive, and now they feel jilted.

[OneAmerica]

137. I've been liking Obama less and less since the primaries ended

Opposing Wes Clark has only added insult to the injury.

[lostnotforgotten]

144. Be Careful - I Was Almost Tomb Stoned Yesterday For Criticizing Obama

The Obama police are out in force so watch your back.

[oviedodem]

150. As usual Dems eat their own, I can't wait for McCain to get into office. I hope all the

Clintonites who refuse to give Obama a chance because of spite, or the self-righteous ones who are in a tizzy over FISA ignoring the fact that sometimes you have to move an inch to gain a yard, or better yet THE IDIOTS WHO ARE KILLING OBAMA FOR CLARK.

THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WERE UP IN ARMS OVER JOHN KERRY AND HIS MILITARY SERVICE BEING QUESTIONED IN '04. Even though Clark is right, it is not the POLITCALLY correct path to go down.

[Kablooie]

151. I disagree. Obama did not solicit the comment and does not see it as a valid campaign issue.

I find it admirable that he won't allow frivolous attacks to invade his campaign.
It may be true that McCain's duty doesn't qualify him for the presidency.
But neither does is disqualify him.
It's an immaterial point.

Obama could have accepted it but that would be playing like the Republicans.
Jump on any small point and make an issue of it.

Clark's statement is his opinion and from his viewpoint, having been a general,
it's valid. But it is not a general campaign issue.

[Apollo11]

159. Thanks for showing some common sense

The LAST thing Obama wants this election to be about is which candidate has the most adequate level of military and/or executive experience to be credible as the next Commander in Chief of the US military.

I don't see any way that this issue can come out in Obama's favor.

Barack must be very displeased with Wes Clark for pursuing this line of attack.

[rg302200]

153. Why would this upset you?

Obama's stanch is called good politics. You let a surrogate attack your opponent in a way you can't, denounce those attacks then pat the guy on the back behind closed doors for a job well done. Get over it already, Obama can't attack McCain's record or support anyone who does because the MSM would destroy Obama in a matter of minutes. I for one hope the Democrats do more of this....get the surrogates out there, destroy McCain and let Obama talk about the issues. Sounds like a winning practice to me!

[Cleita]

154. Well Clark appeared on Abrams show last night and he still supports Obama,

so maybe in a show of unity we should too. Also, there is another thread here on DU where Obama has stated that his remarks weren't directed towards Clark but from a speech he wrote two months ago.

[AllHereTruth]

156. What a chickenshit, whistle-assed, cowardly, stance. Clark was one hundred percent right.

QFT

[mkultra]

162. Obama was right

Obama told an audience in Independence, Mo., that McCain had "endured physical torment in service to our country" and "no one should ever devalue that service, especially for the sake of a political campaign, and that goes for supporters on both sides."



i completely agree with him.

[samsingh]

160. i'm giving Obama my support and i believe the MSM is going to

try and find fake issues to get us to drop Obama.

General Clark is a great man and able to speak his mind to Obama if Clark felt insulted. I bet you Clark is not insulted, and in fact, the media made the issue into a Clark versus Obama situation.

we Democrats must stay united behind our candidate or risk a total moron and piece of shit like mccain - bush 3 - from taking the office.

[mkultra]

161. it was perfect

I, for one, am glad to see a divergence from the bullshit of acting like assholes. Obama must act presidential.

Clarks comments where taken out of context as where Obamas. Read them fully and it will be clear that they both made proper decisions.

<snip>
Obama told an audience in Independence, Mo., that McCain had "endured physical torment in service to our country" and "no one should ever devalue that service, especially for the sake of a political campaign, and that goes for supporters on both sides."
</snip>


Sounds about right to me.

[lebkuchen]

166. Who is devaluing McCain's service?

Jesus, I'm tired of talking about it. McCain spent most of his career in prison. Everybody knows it, and nobody other than a Swiftboat person would devalue a military career.

I know a vet who spent seven years in a tiger cage in Vietnam, and he's not asking for special attention for it. People are losing their homes and jobs. Let's move on.

[sampsonblk]

173. Agreed! - nt