So we are caving in for FISA to appeal to the greater electorate?

[Zodiak]

If so, then please explain why most Americans are against giving telecom companies immunity?

Sixty-three percent (63%) of voters favor requiring the government to obtain a warrant from a court before wiretapping the conversations U.S. citizens have with people in other countries—a figure quite consistent with the 61% opposition we found in October. An outright majority of voters (55%)“strongly” supports requiring warrants. Only one-third (33%) support warrantless wiretaps of Americans’international conversations,with fewer than 1-in-4 (24%)strongly supporting warrantless wiretaps.

http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/safefree/mellmansurvey_jan2008.pdf

And to think that these Americans do not even know that ALL domestic calls have been collected through rerouting through other countries.

It is very telling that all of this FISA stuff is going on without the MSM touting how many Americans just love this legislation. That always puts up a red flag for me. Remember the run-up to the Iraq War? The MSM told us every day that a majority of Americans support invasion. They were proud that their propaganda worked.

The bottom line is: there is no evidence that we are going to lose seats if we do not pass this odious bill. We only have the word of Nancy Pelosi, who tells us that ten congressmen approaced her worried about losing their elections. No evidence given, and no congresscritters identified by name.

To counter Pelosi's assertions, I only have to point at recent polls, which show the Democrats performing extremely well in many races and looking to pick up a number of seats in both Houses.

http://theliberaloc.com/2007/11/27/congressional-quarterly-democrats-to-gain-more-seats-in-2008/

ttp://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/05/18/will_the_democrats_gain_in_congress/

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/37362.html


So basically, the explanation we have been given for this FISA atrocity (electoral victory) is not supported at all by evidence. We are asked to lose our 4th amendment rights and give this barnacle of a President more powers to spy on us on the say-so of just a couple of Democrats.

To me, this is the DLC/blue dogs once again trying to curtail a sure-fire electoral victory to keep Congress blanced party-wise. In my opinion, these Democrats are not interested in a majority for the Democrats and a voice for the people, but a sharply divided Congress where they are in the cat-bird seat because they can run Democratic party by threatening to side with the Republicans on every issue (which they have done time and again for the last 8 years). They are asserting their power here...to the detriment of the party, our chances the next election, and our principles. They also get the added bonus of shutting down the netroots by demoralizing us....increasing their influence within the party even more.

Now if I can be shown evidence that the American people are really behind all of this and we are really in trouble if we vote the right way, I would be glad to change my opinion on the matter. But I think that all there is out there to prove the contrary is fear of our political climate; a climate that has changed much since 2002....even 2006 when we won bigtime. We are jumping at shadows.

ON EDIT: added more polls

[EFerrari]

1. Iirc, only 1 of 11 CSPAN callers had ANYTHING good to say

about the passage of the House Bill. :shrug:

[Zodiak]

2. Well, it is an anecdotal statistic

but still supports the overall thesis.

Americans are not behind this bill.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zodiak]

4. shameless self-kick

Because I feel it needs to be said.

[slipslidingaway]

5. Agree K&R thanks n/t

[depakid]

6. My pet theory: some key dems are dirty or corrupt- and others have embarrassing things to hide

That's about the only rational reason I can think of that would explain why so many Dems have taken such an unpopular and indefensible stand in order to give and even more unpopular pResident and his party a HUGE victory and boost in an election year.

[Hoof Hearted]

7. I'm not.

[dailykoff]

8. It's a huge vote loser.

If Obama votes for it the media vultures will hang it around his neck and light it on fire and he'll burn like a torch until expiring on November 3.

[jgraz]

10. And coming off as a typical weak, triangulating Dem isn't?

Seriously, we've all lived through the defeats of Dukakis, Gore, Kerry and the 94 Congress and your response is that Democrats are still not weak ENOUGH?

:crazy:

[dailykoff]

11. Huh?

I'm saying if he votes YES he gets crucified.

[jgraz]

12. Sorry, are we in agreement and I'm just too tired to figure it out?

If so, time for me to go to bed.

[leftstreet]

9. You make some very good points

Thanks for taking the time to lay this out.

:thumbsup:

[Zodiak]

13. No problem. I do not start OPs very often.

Just when I feel that something has escaped the greater discussion.

[uponit7771]

14. K&R