Those against the death penalty need to remember something about Obama

[Hippo_Tron]

Despite the fact that he criticized today's ruling by the Supreme Court regarding the death penalty for child rapists, he will appoint the kind of justices that voted in the majority.

I'm 100% against the death penalty in any and all cases. But I also recognize that it is a huge political football and the majority of this country does support it.

It is important to remember that federal executions are extremely rare. Put another way, in terms of legislative and pardon powers, the President of the United States has little if any opportunity to stop executions.

The best way for the President of the United States to affect death penalty policy is through judges. And Barack Obama is solid on the type of judges that he will appoint. McGramps will appoint more fascists like Scalia and Alito and that means more absurd death penalty laws like this one will be allowed to stand.

So while I don't much care for Obama's rhetoric on today's ruling, I can live with it because on the actual substantive part of the issue, he is right.

[DesertFlower]

1. i'm against the death penalty too,

but i'm still pro-obama.

[saracat]

2. Odd this is the same kind of political "expediency" advocated by the DLC

and decried by most on DU . But in this case it is different. :shrug: But then I never have been a fan of Machiavelli but he seems to have developed a wider readership and fan base lately!

[The Magistrate]

8. Machiavelli, Ma'am, Has Always Been High On My List....

[Hippo_Tron]

18. Haha me too sir

[rug]

24. "A prince never lacks legitimate reasons to break his promise."

[The Magistrate]

28. Indeed, Sir: Why Do You Say This Like It Were A Bad Thing?

We may leave aside for the moment the question of whether there has been any 'promise' broken by this statement on the Court's ruling....

"Principled arguments are those which appeal to a principle. It is not necessary to always appeal to the same principle."

[rug]

35. Why would you think I think a politician breaking a promise is a bad thing?

"A wise ruler ought never to keep faith when by doing so it would be against his interests."

[The Magistrate]

39. Fair Enough, Sir: Please Accept My Apology For The Mis-Judgement

[Hippo_Tron]

11. Well I can't speak for the rest of DU...

But any time you can be substantively to the left on a policy issue and then throw a bone to the center with your rhetoric and get away with it, I say go for it. That's smart politics.

[cbayer]

3. We are fifth in the world.

We executed more people in 2007 than Iraq.

You are right that the majority of Americans are in favor of the death penalty for murder. I can't find a poll indicating that the majority of people are in favor of it for offenses other than murder. Can you?

[Hippo_Tron]

6. I bet if you polled for "non murder" it wouldn't get a majority

But if you polled specifically for "child rape" then 6 out of 10 would say yes.

[cbayer]

15. You need to find me that data.

Because I just did a search and I couldn't find anything to back that up.

This is a very slippery slope. It is bad enough that we executed 42 people for murder convictions last year, but to expand that to convictions for other offensives is anathema to me.

"Child rape" is an inflammatory hot button. All sex with children is rape. Who are we going to let decide when a rape is so bad that it deserves execution? Mr. White-collar rich guy gonna get it? No. Poor, underprivleged gonna get it? Yes.

[Hippo_Tron]

26. Look I don't disagree with you on any particular point, I hate the death penalty

And yes "child rape" is an inflammatory hot button. And John McCain and the RNC would have repeated that inflammatory hot button to no end if Obama had taken the opposite stance. That is why we let judges make these decisions and not politicians. Judges don't have to worry about inflammatory hot buttons.

[cbayer]

32. I understand your point about political expediency.

My support for Obama has not diminished because of this and I recognize that he has to do what he has to do. I just wish he could do the right thing and still win.

I think my disappointment is more with the entire system than it is with him. I am pleasantly surprised that the Supreme Court has taken this position. I hope it gives weight to those who wish to change the laws regarding the death penalty.

I am frankly surprised by the number of people posting here who do not agree with the court's decision. Are they doing that out of loyalty to our candidate or do they really believe that?

Anyway, I did not mean to jump all over you. This is an issue which gets me worked up. Nothing personal.

[Hippo_Tron]

41. There are some pro death penalty folks on this board

And I have argued with them at length sometimes. My last argument basically went like this...

Opponent: "We coddle criminals too much in this country."

Me: "We have the largest prison population in the world I don't see how you can reasonably argue that we coddle criminals"

Opponent: "We have the largest prison population in the world because we don't execute enough of them"

Me: "Murderers make up a tiny fraction of our prison population and we're one of the few industrialized nations that even has the death penalty. So yes, compared to Saudi Arabia and Iran we coddle criminals. Do you really want to go down that road?"

[JoFerret]

65. God forbid every issue is subject to a popularity poll

.

[rug]

4. Alito, Roberts, Scalia and Thomas are the ones he agreed with here.

[Hippo_Tron]

7. And he is going to appoint justices like Ginsburg, Stevens, Breyer, and Souoter

It's smart politics. Throwing a bone to the center with your rhetoric while substantively you remain on the left.

[rug]

10. Rhetoric that conceals substance is hardly a hopeful new politics.

It would be nice to hear a poitician speak clearly and decisevely for a change.

[Hippo_Tron]

45. Change doesn't come overnight

Obama has at no point promised to not use good old fashioned political common sense. And those who expect him not to are unrealistic.

[question everything]

69. I am not so sure now

and this was going to be the main reason to support our nominee - whoever he or she was going to be.

[baldguy]

5. Being pro-death penalty is very different from being pro-death.

Gobama!

[MoonRiver]

9. The problem is, the further Obama moves to the center,

the less he distinguishes himself from McCain. And, on top of that, McCain is a known quantity to most Americans, while Obama is an amorphous enigma. Obama should just be whomever he is, and stop with the political maneuvering and posturing. JMHO.

[Hippo_Tron]

12. Obama = Stevens, Ginsburg, Breyer, Souter. McCain = Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, Alito

There's nothing amorphous about that

[MoonRiver]

14. How do you know?

His viewpoint on this issue seems decidedly right wing.

[Hippo_Tron]

20. Every Democrat since Franklin Roosevelt has appointed liberal judges with little exception

I have no reason to believe that Obama will be different. That is especially true in today's environment when he will be under immense pressure from liberals when it comes time to appoint judges.

[MoonRiver]

22. He has flip flopped more than a carp on Fisherman's Wharf.

I am starting to believe that I know NOTHING about this man.

[Hippo_Tron]

30. Roosevelt attacked Hoover for running up the deficit...

And then completely changed his position on just about everything once he was elected for the better.

Obama is a Democrat and his principles are in line with those of the Democratic Party. I don't have a crystal ball and I can't tell you every single thing he will do in office. I can tell you that because he is the Democratic nominee for President of the United States that I have a fairly good idea of how he will govern.

[Skip Intro]

13. I think those against the death penalty need to not compromise their position for the benefit

of any politician.

Any politician.

[LostinVA]

16. Exactly

[cbayer]

17. I agree.

I will not ever look at this as an expedient position or throwing a bone to the center. I understand that I am not going to agree with everything Obama does or says, but I will not personally compromise to make his decisions palatable.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

21. Then I wouldn't get to vote period because the two viable Democrats in the primaries were pro-death

penalty. And in the GE both candidates are for the death penalty. So it's either vote for the guy who thinks it should be very rare, or vote for the guy who has said he would consider further expansion of the DP.

[Sparkly]

23. I think the politicians need to compromise, unfortunate as it is.

And I will compromise along with them in order to get whatever progress is possible.

(Edited to add that and change the subject line to address your post better...)

I think the GOP would LOVE to get Obama to say something they can turn into "defending" child rapists. This is the kind of bait they use over and over.

For example, they've wanted to get Democrats on record "defending" flag burning. They accused Democrats of hypocrisy on Iraq, trying to get those with presidential ambitions to advocate for cutting off funding completely. Now they want to get Obama to visit mosques and express his support for Islam, simply because they KNOW how they can use it against him.

Sometimes I think Democrats just have to say, "No, burning the flag is wrong," despite the obvious first amendment issues, because there's far more to lose if they lose ELECTION. Similarly, they have to say things about a "kingdom on earth" etc. because far, far worse things happen if they lose election.

Sometimes, unfortunately, I think politicians have to do what politicians have to do -- and those who don't, don't stand a chance at the presidency. (Not to say I don't LOVE them, though!!!)

So in this case, I'm against the death penalty. But I'm also against everything the Republicans have done and will continue to do until we STOP the bleeding. That's going to take a President Obama. If all he does from now until November is position himself as he needs to in order to win, that would be fine with me.

[The Magistrate]

25. What Is Your View On The Subject, Sir?

[Skip Intro]

31. It's always wrong.

The premise of the OP, as I took it, was that we should nod and wink at support for the death penalty, for watever contrived poltiical reason.

It is usually applied in murder cases, as opposed to the case in question.

The evident logic must follow as such: the taking of life is wrong, therefore killing is wrong, therefore we must kill the killers.

I believe killing is wrong, therefore I believe the death penalty is wrong.

Always wrong.

[The Magistrate]

33. Does Sen. Clinton Share That View, Sir?

[Skip Intro]

37. I don't believe so.

[The Magistrate]

38. Then Were You Not, Sir, Compromising Your View By Supporting Her?

[Skip Intro]

42. To be honest

I hadn't considered the issue in regard to supporting Hillary.

However, the OP seems to argue that a wink and a nod is the appropriate reply to this instance. In essence, abdicating such a deeply held view.

I do not know Hillary's view on the SC decision today.

I do, however have my own views.

Nailing me to a wall here doesn't change the issue at hand, as much fun as it might be.

[The Magistrate]

44. Doubtless Most Of Those You Address Here, Sir, Take The Same Stance Regarding Sen. Obama

He is not on record as opposing capital punishment, so he can hardly be accused of speaking today in bad faith. Those who support him, but oppose capital punishment, must mostly feel that the issue ranks as one of lesser importance than many others.

[Hippo_Tron]

48. Or we believe that despite Obama's rhetoric, his election will help our cause

Fighting against the death penalty isn't just about electing anti death penalty candidates to office. There are many anti death penalty candidates who get elected and succumb to political pressure anyway and enact pro death penalty measures.

Obama's judges will be much better on the death penalty than McCain's judges will be. Therefore on the issue of the death penalty, I see very good strategic reasons why Obama should be elected President of the United States.

[The Magistrate]

50. Doubtless You Are Correct Regarding Judicial Appointments, Sir

[Skip Intro]

49. That may be. For some, it may not be.

I have seen arguments that suggest no one take Obama to task for such views, this or his stand on FISA or his pandering to Israel in regards to their saber rattling against Iran. That mum is the word, support mandatory, despite personal convictions.

The death penalty, and the supposed proper reaction from Democrats, appears to be the topic of this thread, however. So I share my two cents worth, not addressing anyone in particular.

[The Magistrate]

52. Does It Surprise You, Sir, That People Here Support The Party's Nominee?

[Skip Intro]

55. No, it doesn't. It surprises me that self-delusion and betrayal of convictions seem requisite

for that support. At times.

[The Magistrate]

59. That Is A Bit Much, Sir

And on reflection you would probably agree it is a considerable overstatement....

[Skip Intro]

64. Perhaps, Magistrate.

I have always known you to be a fair soul, even when you lock my threads. I do respect your opinions, much as I do those of many here.

I am, however, taken aback when I see displays of blind faith in any politician. The knowledge that they work for us, and not the other way around, has become cemented in my mind these last seven years. I can't abide a different set of standards for public servants from our side vs public servants from the other side. Duty to the constitution and the good of the people and will of the people and the rights of the people outweigh poltical expediency in every instance.

[Hippo_Tron]

53. I don't have a problem with criticizing him for any of his stances

And at no point did I say that people should not criticize him for his comments on today's ruling or his stance on the death penalty in general. In fact I think he should be criticized for it.

I'm just pointing out that while many are busy criticizing they may forget the big picture, which is that the justices determined this outcome, not the president.

[AllentownJake]

56. Biggest problem with our side sometimes

Herding cats.

Which is why we got into this situation in the first place thanks to Mr. Nader in 2000.

Fortunately for us...the GOP with McCain is starting to show some of the illness we had in 2000.

[AllentownJake]

34. It's also inefficient and biasly applied

Death Penalty cost tax payers more than life in Prison and also isn't applied in a consistent or non-bias basis.

Personally I'd rather the fuckers who warrant it rot in hard labor.

[paulk]

19. how do you know that?

Because he said so?

Obama today sided with Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, and Alito.

Actions speak louder than words.

It's one thing to move toward the center in a general election.

Kennedy, the swing vote, was the center in this decision.

Obama has moved dramatically toward the right, here.

Political expediency doesn't quite cover it, in my view.

What Obama said today is indefensible.

[elocs]

27. Those who do not understand why Obama said what he did live in a Never-Neverland,

one where you don't win elections, but one where you can congratulate yourself on being noble and self righteous and one where you can pontificate while you judge and condemn whatever Obama does, all from the comfort of your armchair.

"Golly, gee whiz Pop, if Obama always does and says things that are doctrinally pure and perfect, then everything will always go right. But if he doesn't agree with this, then fuck him because he hates the Constitution". Yes, another perfect day in Pleasantville where the Democrats are always noble and pure, Republicans are always assholes, and our president is called "McCain". Oh well, 2 our of 3 ain't bad.

[AllentownJake]

29. Bill Clinton

Signed Death Warrants as Govenor than appointed Ginsberg and Beyers. He never signed any as President.

Sorry we are in a right leaning country on this issue. The last democratic candidate who was anti-capital punishment was Dukakis. How did that go for us?

[Hippo_Tron]

36. Exactly

The President doesn't sign death warrants because federal executions are extremely rare. Not to mention that if someone hasn't been sentenced to death on the federal level at this point, they probably won't be executed during Obama's tenure in office since the appeals take a decade.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people that don't realize this and so it is necessary to use politically expedient rhetoric.

[AllentownJake]

40. More idealogical purity test

How many people has Obama carried out a death warrant on? If he was running for Govenor of Illinois it would be an issue.

Tim McVeigh was executed under Bush.

Obama actually may have one Khalid Shiek Mohamed. For that fucker I don't care if we kill him though I'd rather he be sent to prison in Alaska and made to shovel snow till he dies of natural causes.

[Hippo_Tron]

43. I think killing him is incredibly stupid, why make him a martyr in the eyes of his followers

I would think that people would have less incentive to engage in terrorist attacks against the United States when they know that their fate will be spending decades in a prison cell as opposed to a quick and easy martyrdom.

[AllentownJake]

47. I agree

but you know how we are.

I wish McVeigh were still alive because he could be a resource into examining the minds of terrorists and I wish he was shoveling snow in Alaska when he wasn't giving profiling info to the FBI.

[Hippo_Tron]

51. You know, I really like that shoveling snow in Alaska idea

Currently we put people that just escape the death penalty into 23-1 solitary confinement which makes them go insane and causes more problems for the prison guards. Hard labor is a much better idea.

[AllentownJake]

54. Can't take credit for it

It was my Father's idea.

What are they going to do escape in the Alaska Tundra he would always say. He thought the death penalty was too soft. Being stuck out in the cold was his worse form of punishment.

Be a more escape proof prison than Alcatraz.

I'm sure though it would be controversial as it would be compared to Siberia.

[Hippo_Tron]

57. You wouldn't even need to put a gate around the place

If they want to run away and freeze to death that's their prerogative and frankly that's not a bad way to go. Damn shame that the Russians totally ruined it for us.

[AllentownJake]

58. I think we can do it

Only problem is finding people to work the Prison.

If a democratic Presidend proposed a Prison in Alaska for the Charlie Manson's of the world the American Public wouldn't think twice.

However I feel it would be very unpopular here.

I'm a liberal but I have no problem with punishing cold blooded psycopaths.

I guess if Karl Rove and Rumsfeld got prosecuted and sent there it would be popular here :smoke:

[Hippo_Tron]

61. See I'm about as soft on criminals as they come

But I'm also not delusional enough to believe that there's any 100% humane way to treat cold blooded psycopaths and keep the rest of the public safe at the same time. It's not about punishment for me (part of the reason I'm against the death penalty), it's about the fact that they need to be separated from society to keep the rest of us safe. Sending them to Alaska seems like the perfect way to do that.

[AllentownJake]

62. I've dated

Two women who were raped. One after I was dating her but still a very close friend and one before I dated her.

Seeing the psycological effect that had on these two people I love has made me pro punishment. Death is to easy for the scum that did that to them.

[Hippo_Tron]

63. Have a close friend who was raped less than a year ago, it's a real nightmare

It was even worse, because we were both friends with the guy that did it. It really opened my eyes to just how difficult it is for women to get any justice when they are raped. I've read an article saying that the United Kingdom is far worse and that prosecution for rape is the exception not the norm. So I guess that's one area where I'm glad our country is a bit tougher on crime, especially since I lean toward the belief that rapists can't be rehabilitated. Granted we do need to do something about those idiotic laws that make people sex offenders for peeing in public or 18 year olds having sex with their 17 year old girlfriend.

[watrwefitinfor]

46. Thank you for a very sensible post.

It feels like many people on DU thought that as soon as he became the presumptive nominee, Obama was going to morph into Kucinich.

He is the nominee of the Democratic Party. Not the Progressive Left Party, not the Democratic Socialist Party, and not even the Anti-Death-Penalty Party.

He is a pragmatic democrat with progressive tendencies. He is a quick learner. And dammit, people like him.

And he is our last and only hope to slow down the mad gallop toward fascism of this country. To say nothing of perhaps being the only hope of salvaging something for our children in terms of a livable planet.

He knows he cannot win this thing without the progressive base of the Democratic Party. But neither can he win it without the support of the less fascistic branch of the corporatist and banking class. And as many others as he can pull into his circle. He has to do this in the face of the mass media and the 527's and Diebold. AND the delusional people on DU who think he has to adopt a far left position on every single issue. And the man understands all that.

He needs the broadest base possible, or it will be just another lost cause, like 2000 and 2004. And it is much to his credit that he has brought his campaign and balancing act so far. Amazing, in fact.

It is astounding to me that so many people here are so personally offended when he takes one of his pragmatic positions. That is how he is going to win, if win he can, and God help us all if he cannot.

It is sickening to see the same people, over and over, jump on every damned little thing the media jump on -

He broke his promise not to accept public financing because the people were supporting him so strongly! He dared to voiced an opinion on a book of the Bible! He states that he supports part of the compromise FISA bill that he can do nothing to stop, and states he will try to stop only the worst part of it, though there is no possibility of stopping any of it at all, and even that moderate stance will be used to portray him as weak weak weak on terror. Now he wants to execute people who violently rape little babies.

Is there no limit to the man's calumny?

Jesus, people. I agree much more with Kucinich than with Obama. I am quite to the left of Kucinich, in fact. But I know when it's time to get behind the only person in town who shows any sign of being able to lead us out of this mess. And I pray to a god I don't even believe in that the man will win, whether with our help here on DU, or in spite of us.

Wat

[FrenchieCat]

68. Thank you.

If I could recommend a post inside a thread, this one would be it.

[suston96]

60. I do not support it because mistakes - executing an innocent person - cannot be fixed.

Read this story - of Carlos de Luna.

http://stopexecutions.blogspot.com/2008/06/sister-of-executed-man-texas-guilty-of.html

Also Google: 'innocent executed in Texas' - and see what you get.

Dozens of people on death row in Illinois and elsewhere have been freed thanks to DNA. One person just days before his scheduled date.

Tell me that Texas has made no mistakes in its almost 500 executions since the death penalty was reinstated?

[On the Road]

66. That is the Single Most Powerful Reason Against the Death Penalty

Mistakes are common, and it is irreversible.

[JVS]

73. How does one fix 10 years of imprisonment under false pretenses? You can't undo those 10 years

But yeah, being careful is a good idea.

[jobycom]

67. I hope so, because what he did today was praise Roberts, Alito, Scalia, and Thomas

while attacking Ginsburg, Souter, Breyer, and Stevens. I don't see a lot to smile about when our candidate sides with Scalia over Stevens.

[TheKentuckian]

70. Ohh

we dealt with Bubba and he had signed death warrants already when we nominated him.

I too dream of a day where an Obama or a Clinton (either one) would be considered center to conservative in America but if you think that day is now I have some beach front property to sell you in Arizona, you have to check it out!

[jobycom]

71. Not even slightly relevant to what I said.

:shrug:

I'm not talking about the death penalty. The OP was about what kind of justices Obama would appoint. Today he sided with the four who oppose us on everthing in opposition to the four who have been on our side. Is that what he's going to do as president? Appoint justices that he thinks won't bother the Republicans? Because that's what his statement indicates.

As for Bubba Bush and his death warrants, I'm in Texas, I know all about them.

[JVS]

72. I trust Obama to do the right thing when in power.

I also trust him not to do the politically suicidal thing of sticking up for child molesters when on the campaign trail.