UPDATE! from MSM!! UPDATE!!!

[underpants]

Ethanol is now bad. There have always been "some doubt" about it*.
Obama has ties to it too.

You are now re-informed



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3504555

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3363448&mesg_id=3363448

*-not that MSM ever let you know about that starting back about November of 2006 (freshly repackaged and reintroduced in February 2007 for the beginning of the Presidential runs ...in Iowa)


__________

I am not giving cover to or and excuse for Obama-it stinks to high heaven-but it is interesting that MSM (RNC) now is flinging this against the wall to see if IT will stick.

[slinkerwink]

1. Doesn't almost every population from a state with a large rural population support ethanol?

[Buzz Clik]

9. Yes. Every goddam one.

Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, etc etc.

The problem isn't ethanol; the problem is taking away food to produce ethanol.

[zulchzulu]

2. NYT has a hit piece about it too today

Damn farmers from those flyover states! Why won't they just let us have Brazilian ethanol!

:crazy:

[cornermouse]

3. Ethanol is bad.

Just not for that reason. If you want I could start listing the them... Basically it's another con job.

[underpants]

5. No no no

I'm not listening to them but the problem is that alot of people are-though less than ever before.

I know all about the evils of Corn including ethanol.

[jobycom]

4. We have always been at war with Eastasia.

[underpants]

7. Yes but someday, God willing, we will get that Goldstein fella

[harun]

16. The MSM has warned me that Eastasian's fist bump, and that is how we can

tell their operatives are amongst us. We are so lucky to have MSM to protect and inform us!!!

[Buzz Clik]

6. Jesus Christ.

Ethanol is bad? Ethanol as a fuel replacement has been in place for decades. It's now bad? The positive and negative aspects of ethanol have been recognized forever. Endorsing an ethanol plant is hardly a bad thing.

We complain about the MSM -- but DU is packed with fucking idiots. Most of us don't know shit from Shinola. The MSM is serving up exactly what we pay to hear, and we never turn a deaf ear to their insanity.

[LTR]

18. Thank you!

Finally, a voice of sanity in all of this.

I chuckle at people who bitch about petroleum, yet also bitch about renewable energy. Perhaps they'd rather live in the stone age?

Ironically, these same people posting this asinine nonsense on a computer. Hope it's pedal-powered.

As I've been saying, the ethanol industry is only in the growing stages considering where it could be some day, with advances in cellulose extraction. I've maintained that the big problem with it is the heavy use of corn. I'm not one of those that think corn ethanol is starving the world. I haven't seen a shred of credible evidence of that. The problem with corn is its low energy yield compared to various grasses (sugar cane, switchgrass, hemp), and the fact that corn is a bitch to grow, is too dependent on toxic fertilizers and pesticides and over time can really screw up the soil. Grasses, on the other hand, grow outrageously fast, need far less water and chemicals and are good rotation crops.

Here's what I wrote about in other threads:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3363448&mesg_id=3363601
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3363448&mesg_id=3363894

As I've said, we've only scratched the surface as far as ethanol is concerned. I think it can work in the long run, so long as we're smart about it.

[cliffordu]

21. I laugh at people who think we can keep happily motoring with impunity

in 1950's fashion using oil, ethanol, pig poop or magic fairy dust.

I wonder if people will ever realize that their fucking cars are killing US, not the planet.

Probably not. I don't believe we are capable of making the changes we need to make to stop killing ourselves.

I can’t wait for the Chinese to add to the problem with THEIR 20 or 50 or 200 MILLION new cars over the next few years. Then THEY can all believe that owning a car is a God-given right and not the perverted, deadly, addictive aberration of the industrial age that it really amounts to.....Cars are the Crystal meth of machines; they make you feel like you are smarter, better looking and more bullet resistant than you really are and all the while they are rotting your teeth and brain. We'll kill millions to drive to the mall.

After 35 years of being nationalized by Saddam, the oil fields in Iraq are being grabbed up by the Usual Suspects - Shell, Exxon-Mobile, Phillips.

Look for gasoline to drop to a thrifty 3.75 a gallon.

Over 4000 Americans dead while grabbing for it, and maybe a million dead Iraqi "Unintended Consequences'.

We're going to hit the Iranians over it, too.

With ethanol, we can just starve people to death. That's easier than war.

Next time they fill up, folks should try to figure out how much blood gets added to the crude to get that summer mix.

[Terran]

8. Corn-based ethanol really is bad

and I'm glad that information is actually showing up in the news. Ethanol can be made from grass and old tires now, so growing food to turn into fuel for SUV's is fucking insane.

[Buzz Clik]

10. "growing food to turn into fuel for SUV's is fucking insane" -- EXACTLY!

Thank you for injecting some sanity into this.

[high density]

20. I agree! A huge con on us all

It's kind of amazing though that the NY Times nor anybody else had the balls to talk about it until a Democratic presidential candidate was deemed to be "closely linked with ethanol."

[crankychatter]

11. NAFTA is bad.... Mexican Farmers going broke... People can't buy a GD Corn Tortilla in Mexico

It's bad for American Farmers too

Corn diversion doesn't help the world wide food shortage...

but we're able to accomplish the same thing with Saw Grass... plentiful on the prairie

Ethanol ain't bad...

[cornermouse]

12. Ethanol is bad.

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/05/28/Hillsborough/Ethanol_faces_big_hur.shtml

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2006/09/07/ethanolnow/

http://www.polarisinstitute.org/cant_drink_ethanol

[GihrenZabi]

14. Don't have the links but...

I believe the cheap problem with ethanol is that it isn't very efficient as a fuel source. It is no replacement for gasoline.

[cornermouse]

17. It takes massive amounts of water to make ethanol.

When an oncoming water shortage, that's not a good thing.

[Stuckinthebush]

27. I've always wondered about that.

THe amount of water used to make Ethanol must be massive.

[GihrenZabi]

32. That's been getting a lot of press lately...

But it's beyond that. Again, I don't have links, this is stuff I remember from Wired and New Scientist.

Ethanol emissions are purportedly WORSE than gasoline emissions, for one.

It effects food prices, for another.

It's terribly unrealistic for mass usage. The conversion costs are prohibitive.

If we are going to switch to another source of energy, it has to be cheap, clean, and an easier switch. Hence nuclear power, perhaps coupled with electric cars you charge off the grid.

[shireen]

13. what? they just figured it out?

Almost everyone in politics has tied to ethanol. And big oil. And big pharmaceuticals. Those things are like fleas. We should send them all flea collars (except Dennis, Bernie, and a few others).

Don't be so hard on Obama, tho' ... he's smart. He may be using them, but in the end, i believe he'll do the right things as president. I hope.

[endarkenment]

15. Is there any doubt that they just read the daily RNC briefing?

They do not even bother to hide the coordination at this point.

[zulchzulu]

19. Does anyone here know the difference between Brazilian ethanol and corn-based ethanol?

To say ALL ethanol is bad is kinda stoopit.

[scheming daemons]

22. Brazilian ethanol is made from sugar cane.

[uponit7771]

24. Which is a lot more efficient than corn

[uponit7771]

23. Yeap, if we'd grow it the way Brazil does then use the husk for production we'd have better....

...production etc.

But using corn is inefficient

[cliffordu]

25. Well.....You can either lose food crops or rain forest......

Why aren't we growing POT for ethanol, again??

[Sensitivity]

29. Brazil uses sugarcane as input to Ethanol extraction. Much less energy required to produce

Than when corn is used.Has to do w complexity of molecule to break down using current extraction tech.

An entirely different approach to extraction -- enzymatic extraction -- is subject of r and d and some commercialization efforts.

[zulchzulu]

30. The tradeoff to Ethanol from sugar cane is awful pollution from the process

I don't if you've been to places where they burn sugar cane, but it STINKS...and worse, the nitrogen oxide levels are high...

Here's the issue addressed about Brazilian production:

...burning cane fields also releases large amounts of nitrogen into the air, making air pollution worse in cane-growing regions. The nitrogen is in the form of ammonia and nitrogen oxides (NOx), which react to create ozone. During the harvest period from April to November, a layer of ash covers cars, and NOx levels double in the main sugarcane-growing state of São Paulo, says study leader Arnaldo Cardoso of São Paulo State University.

http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/esthag-w/2007/dec/science/ee_Brazil_biofuels.html

[scheming daemons]

26. The problem with ethanol is that we are using 25% of America's corn to make 3% of America's fuel....

It's DUMB..... with a capital D.

[Stuckinthebush]

28. That's bad math

;)

[anonymous171]

31. I've been saying ethanol was a bad idea since 2006. Unfortunately, I am not important.

:cry: