I, for one, am going to trust Barack Obama.

[TheWraith]

Everything that I've seen of, and heard from, Senator Barack Obama tells me this: that man is not a fool. He's not a patsy. And he's not easily fazed.

I, for one, am going to trust in Senator Obama's keen political judgement, his thorough knowledge of and respect for the constitution, and his steadfast ability to get things done. Even just over the last few years he's done more than most people would have ever imagined, fighting a half-dozen uphill battles in the process. And he's risen to where he is without pandering or avoiding the tough issues.

I'm not going to assume that he's suddenly lost his judgement or his backbone. No one says he's perfect, or that he's infallible. But he's incredibly savvy man, one with character to boot, and if I had to put money down on it, I would say that he knows what he's doing.

[crankychatter]

1. kicked - nt

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AZBlue]

2. He's winning an election.

And he's one of the most trustable people in the country today. We're lucky he's willing to take on this task.

K&R

[unkachuck]

3. trust no one....

....suspect everyone....

[Orsino]

125. To update Reagan, "Hope, but verify."

I see Obama as a president who might be willing to listen to us, maybe, sometimes...which would make him a great one. We would still have to be vigilant constantly.

[frogcycle]

4. Me too

although the oh-so-much wiser, worldly geniuses on DU who huff and puff might convince me otherwise...

oh, wait...

no they won't!

[bjobotts]

108. This is seriously misguided. Jefferson and Adams tell us why

from Glenn Greenwald @salon.com
"...this attitude that we should uncritically support Obama in everything he does and refrain from criticizing him is unhealthy in the extreme. No political leader merits uncritical devotion -- neither when they are running for office nor when they occupy it -- and there are few things more dangerous than announcing that you so deeply believe in the Core Goodness of a political leader, or that we face such extreme political crises that you trust and support whatever your Leader does, even when you don't understand it or think that it's wrong. That's precisely the warped authoritarian mindset that defined the Bush Movement and led to the insanity of the post-9/11 Era, and that uncritical reverence is no more attractive or healthy when it's shifted to a new Leader.
What Barack Obama did here was wrong and destructive. He's supporting a bill that is a full-scale assault on our Constitution and an endorsement of the premise that our laws can be broken by the political and corporate elite whenever the scary specter of The Terrorists can be invoked to justify it. What's more, as a Constitutional Law Professor, he knows full well what a radical perversion of our Constitution this bill is, and yet he's supporting it anyway. Anyone who sugarcoats or justifies that is doing a real disservice to their claimed political values and to the truth.
The excuse that we must sit by quietly and allow him to do these things with no opposition so that he can win is itself a corrupted and self-destructive mentality. That mindset has no end. Once he's elected, it will transform into: "It's vital that Obama keeps his majority in Congress so you have to keep quiet until after the 2010 midterms," after which it will be: "It's vital that Obama is re-elected so you have to keep quiet until after 2012," at which point the process will repeat itself from the first step. Quite plainly, those are excuses to justify mindless devotion, not genuine political strategies.


declaring that Obama is now Evil Incarnate, no better than John McCain, etc. etc. -- is no better. Obama is a politician running for political office, driven by all the standard, pedestrian impulses of most other people who seek and crave political power. It's nothing more or less than that, and it is just as imperative today as it was yesterday that the sickly right-wing faction be permanently removed from power and that there is never any such thing as the John McCain Administration (as one commenter ironically noted yesterday, at the very least, Obama is far more likely to appoint Supreme Court Justices who will rule that the bill Obama supports is patently unconstitutional).


no good comes from lending uncritical support to a political leader, or cheering them on when they do bad and destructive things, or using twisted rationalizations to justify their full-scale assault on your core political values. The overriding lesson of the last seven years is that political figures, more than they need anything else, need checks and limits. That is just as important to keep in mind -- probably more so -- when you love or revere a political leader as it is when you detest one.

(Jefferson and Adams) "There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams <1772>.
In 1799, Thomas Jefferson echoed that: "Free government is founded in jealousy, not confidence . . . . Let no more be heard of confidence in men, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitutions." Between (a) relying on the limitations Between (a) relying on the limitations imposed by the Constitution or (b) placing faith in the promises of a political leader not to abuse his unchecked power, it isn't really a difficult choice -- at least it ought not to be, no matter who the political leader in question happens to be."

Go back and read all of Bill Clinton's promises before he got elected because he changed his mind when he entered office. The rhetoric sounds just like Obama.

[Guaranteed]

112. Reminds me of the Republicans who think Bush is a liberal. nt

[genna]

135. It is so dangerous to stop thinking just because we have a good maybe even great candidate

The one charge that bothered me all the way through the primaries about Obama supporters, me being one of them, is that we so blindly followed him that we could see no wrong. Look as an AA, I think I can say so long as he's right I will agree with him. But if he starts doing stuff that goes against what he says he believes, I don't think I should be asked to adhere to the new line just because he says it is completely consistent.

Our civil liberties are not negotiable even though Congress has been allowing the Executive to overstep. Obama knows any civil liberty is limited but this one in this way is just wrong.

[Barack_America]

5. Second. I mean, come on people, we've read his books.

Are we really supposed to believe that's all a ruse, based on one statement (not even a vote)?

[ellacott]

8. I agree, I wish they would wait for his vote

[Andrea]

98. What's all this referring to?

I've missed the news the last couple days. Please enlighten me.

[Bluerthanblue]

6. I'll join you-

as you say, he isn't perfect, but I do believe he is going to be an excellent president.


peace~

[nsd]

Agreed.

Through the many difficult months of the primary season, Obama displayed good judgment, high intellect, and an even-keeled temperament. I think he's earned the benefit of any doubt. All the ideological purists flipping out since yesterday need to calm down and get some perspective on things.

[TechBear_Seattle]

7. Baaaaaa!

Sorry, but while Obama has some admirable qualities, he is a politician, and one with enough savvy to have reached the top of the heap very quickly. As such, he is by definition extremely untrustworthy.

I will sleep better at nights with him at the head of this country than I ever did with Bush in charge. Nonetheless, I think it will be foolish not to sleep with one eye open and a weapon close at hand.

[debunkthelies]

85. Baaaaa!

I second that thought.:thumbsup:

[Raksha]

100. I agree. I just can't believe *ANY* politician

reaches the top of the heap as fast as Obama has done without having some kind of "understanding" with the ruling class.

[Erin Elizabeth]

102. I hope you are speaking figuratively about sleeping

with a weapon close at hand. Hyperbole?

[TechBear_Seattle]

104. I would have thought it obvious hyperbole

I trust him far enough not to send jackbooted thugs to my home in the middle of the night because I am gay, non-religious and actually expect people to make good on their promises. Then again, I felt the same way about Bill Clinton until DOMA and DADT. Given the Democrats' recent history of kowtowing to the far right on matters of equality, though, I fear that my comment will turn out not to have been hyperbole at all.

[NanceGreggs]

9. Amen to that!

:kick: & REC'D, my friend!

:applause:

[TheWraith]

47. Thank you kindly, ma'am. nt

[grantcart]

10. and I am going to enjoy it too.

[Catherina]

11. I feel like weeping when I see well-meaning posts like this

because they remind me of what Republicans said in 2000 when they voted for Bush and people remember that experience, especially Republicans who are disgusted with Bush now and Independents who don't go for the trust or party loyalty bit.

I think we really need to offer something more substantial to voters than just trusting Obama or any other politician. The trust track record for politicians isn't very good right now.

Where some of us think "he's risen to where he is without pandering or avoiding the tough issues" others will strongly beg to differ. For example you can't call his speech to AIPAC anything other than pandering and some of those missing Senate votes can be interpreted as avoiding the tough issues. I hate to side with Hillary on this but her insulting comment about Obama just having a speech, instead of apologizing for the folly of her war vote, wasn't as far off as we partisans want to believe.

For our country's sake I'm glad you're going to trust him but I think we need to beef this up with something more solid than gut reaction trust going into the GE.

Maybe we could work on a solid no-nonesense thread of Obama's accomlishments?

I'd really like to recommend this but I'm waiting to see what happens with the FISA vote.

[ellacott]

13. Can we at least wait until he votes?

[Catherina]

17. That was about more than the FISA vote

As far as the FISA vote is concerned, yes we can wait but I reserve the right to be concerned about the statement he issued. I honestly wish he hadn't issued it.

My main point is that "Trust him" isn't a big selling point because people don't trust politicians and for very good reasons. If we want to help Barack, we need to sell more than that. We can't convince people to trust.

[Barack_America]

21. Wow. So it was just a statement, not a vote and now you're extrapolating it...

..to impact other issues as well?

[Catherina]

25. Whatever Kristi1696. I may be a strong Obama supporter but no thanks for the kool-aide

His statement was a disaster.

If you think "Trust Obama" is a great selling point, knock yourself out.

[Barack_America]

26. Fine. Just don't bash us for not being cynical.

If we want to trust and set ourselves up for disappointment, that's our choice.

[Catherina]

28. Who's bashing you? Please read what I wrote next time

I told you it wasn't a good selling point. I never told you not to trust.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skepticscott]

65. Not sure what good the vote will do for Obama now

since he previously promised to support a filibuster of any bill that included retroactive immunity for the telecoms, but now has expressed support for a House bill that included exactly that. It's not clear what he can do when the Senate considers the bill that can reconcile those two diametrically opposite positions. He will either have to reiterate and reinforce his most recently stated (and in my opinion, deeply flawed) position, costing him even further support in the general election, or come back around to what he must know deep down is the right thing to do, and be accused of flip-flopping (twice) on a critical issue.

Of course, none of this hand-wringing would be necessary if the House Democrats had even a few vertebrae and had sent this bill where it belongs, down to crashing defeat.

[jgraz]

103. The vote is meaningless. If he had been leading, the bill would have never got a vote.

Obama is now the de facto leader of the party. One word from him and Pelosi buries the legislation. Obama had to give his assent for this vote to even happen.

[K Gardner]

70. Catherina.. its been two days.. you really need to try to think logically and get away from the

emotion you've been reacting to this with. I hate to sound nonchalant, but this is really NOT the end of the world.

He does know what he is doing. And you're starting to sound like you belong elsewhere.. you've gone beyond criticizing Obama and into attacking him with RW talking points. Get a grip.

[Catherina]

81. I'm sorry you feel that way

but frankly, as a voter with my own mind, that's not my problem. I still support him but don't expect lock-step slavishness when he messes up. If I thought it was "the end of the world", I wouldn't be here.

I'm not going to blindly trust ANY politician based on a gut feeling. I suggest you toughen up and handle criticism of his mis-steps with a little more than "it's been two days, get over it". He mis-stepped, it does him a HUGE disfavor to pretend he didn't. Thankfully he's catching an earful from long-time supporters on his own blog which will help him navigate this mis-step a lot better than passive trust which isn't a strong selling point for increasing his support base.

[rebel with a cause]

101. when you compare bush to Obama

you have lost me. The first time I saw bush on tv, I felt ill at my stomach. The aura of evil around him was so strong that I could feel it even through the airways. I didn't know anything about him, but I knew he was evil and he would bring destruction to the US. I told everyone that I knew what this man was.

I have met Obama and although I know he is not perfect, I never felt an aura of evil around him. I still trust him, and it has been four years since I first met him. He may have disappointed me a few times, but he has never disappointed me enough to make we loss that trust in him. He has been my Senator for three years, and I still trust him. I have always been cynical, even toward him, but I still trust him because he has proven I can trust him. He is not my god, but he is my candidate. The one that I have chosen from the start and I trust him to do what he needs to do to take the WH away from the republican warhawks.

[Catherina]

109. I'm not comparing Bush to Obama! Heavens no!

I'm the idea of walking around saying we "trust" Obama to the way Republicans walked around in 2000 saying they were voting for Bush because they trusted him. They didn't know why and he had no record but they "trusted" him.

I had a visceral reaction to Bush the moment he popped on the scene and surrounded himself with some of the most evil men past administrations had had.

I need to re-read my post because in no way was I comparing Obama to Bush! I was trying to make the point that saying we
"trust" a politician isn't a good selling point in this day and age. I apologize for having worded things so clumsily that it came across that way.

I just don't think voting on trust is the best selling point because many Americans got burned on that in 2000 and Obama is appealing to a lot of Republicans and Independents who don't have good memories of being burned by that cowboy.

[rebel with a cause]

119. I realized that I misunderstood you when I read

your later posts. I knew from reading your past posts that I had always liked you, but then when this trust issue came up and some posters were threatening to jump ship, I began to think that maybe you were doing the same. When I read the rest of your posts, then I saw what you were saying and what you meant. I apoligize for misjudging you.

My mind is occupied else where tonight, I'm afraid. I have to go tomorrow for a treatment for the cancer and I am not sure what it is. It has to do with the hormone therapy, and probably is nothing, but one sometimes worries about the unknown. It's funny, I'm am more occupied with this than I was the surgery. I liked my surgeon though. This doctor not so much. Don't dislike, just don't like them quite as much as the surgeon. :shrug:

[Catherina]

122. You weren't the only one who misunderstood so I accept full blame

I'm not jumping ship. I just want to more information from him and for another week to go by so we can see what he does, especially after the outcry. I'm so sorry to hear about the cancer :( If it means anything, I'll be thinking of you tomorrow. I hate to butt in but are you watching your diet? My sister has breast cancer and switched to a raw food diet with her doctor's support. She feels alot better and looks wonderful. http://www.cancertutor.com/Cancer/RawFood.html I'm not a doctor but check it out. The food is delicious but it takes a bit of work. We took her to a great restaurant for her birthday and I fell in love with the food. Good luck tomorrow :hug:

I promise you I have no intention of jumping ship. Too many people's well-being is at stake.


so much depends
upon
a red wheel
barrow

glazed with rain
water

beside the white
chickens.


The Red Wheelbarrow
William Carlos Williams

[rebel with a cause]

123. thanks.

I am on several diets right now because I have so many ailments that I have lost count of them. (five/six?) There are so many restrictions that I don't know if a raw food diet would be best for me. No leafy greens, low carbs, lots of fruit but limited types, limited vegtables, limited liquids, low/no sugar, low/no salt, etc, etc. I am not following the diets as much as I should right now, because it is hard to eat food with no taste. But I am doing okay.

[lib2DaBone]

12. I love Barack

I hope he has the steam to get it done. I have my doubts. We trusted Pelosi and Reid.. what did we get?

[leftofcool]

14. Go ahead. I trust no one

[Tektonik]

15. I'll trust him,

but I will not forget this. He just needs to watch himself and not succumb to centrist bullshit.

[cliffordu]

16. Excellent post!!! K&R!!!

[Lisa0825]

19. I have completely put my trust in him...... for the election...

that does not by any means indicate that I won't reserve my right to complain and/or protest if I feel he is wrong during his administration. I think that is our duty as activists/citizens. But for the election, from what I have seen of him and his campaign, I am comfortable with trusting their decisions and strategy.

[Oregone]

20. Everything that I've seen of, and heard from, [the world] tells me this: Don't get your hopes up

Yes, just saying.

Obama is impressive, but even if he is precisely what this country needs, he isn't going to be what the powerful of this country want. The deck is stacked against anyone who truly intends to change the country/world.

Id say, forgive my pessimism...But am I a pessimist, or a realist?

[Blue_Roses]

22. count me in too!

:kick:

[BlueJac]

23. Trust who you want...........

The proof is in the pudding. I have seen it all so far in my 58 years. The corporate elite is winning all battles so far!

[BlackVelvet04]

24. You go right ahead and trust Obama.....

I don't trust anybody until they prove they are trustworthy.

"It's either that he "chickened out" or -- as Yale Law Professor Jack Balkin asserts and Digby wonders -- Obama believes he will be President and wants these extreme powers for himself, no doubt, he believes, because he'll exercise them magnanimously, for our Own Good. Whatever the motives -- and I don't know (or much care) what they are -- Obama has embraced a bill that is not only redolent of many of the excesses of Bush's executive power theories and surveillance state expansions, but worse, has done so by embracing the underlying rationale of "Be-scared-and-give-up-your-rights." Note that the very first line of Obama's statement warns us that we face what he calls "grave threats," and that therefore, we must accept that our Leader needs more unlimited power, and the best we can do is trust that he will use it for our Good.

Making matters worse still, what Obama did yesterday is in clear tension with an emphatic promise that he made just months ago. As the extremely pro-Obama MoveOn.org notes today, Obama's spokesman, Bill Burton, back in in September, vowed that Obama would "support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies."

Obama's support for the FISA "compromise"



It's blind trust that brought us 8 years of George Bush. I think I'll pass on being the left's version of a bushbot.

[Catherina]

29. You had no intention of voting for him anyway and do nothing but bash him all day

How's that Obama-hating, McCain-supporting site of yours going?

I especially love some of your latest gems

Obama birth certificate fake

Woohoo! Statistical dead heat btwn Mac and Nobama.; As of June 21

Woohoo indeed :puke: You and the other trolls hanging out there are the biggest jokes of this election.

[Danger Mouse]

31. BlackVelvet wants to make the women of my generation suffer for not supporting Hillary...

by helping McCain win so that they lose Roe v. Wade.

[Catherina]

35. It was never about Hillary. What kind of people have petitions to John McCain?

[Danger Mouse]

38. I don't know. I can't understand it at all.

[davidpdx]

34. Some of our long lost "friends"

are quoted on those two threads. Amazing that people that call themselves Democrats are railing against the nominee.

[BlackVelvet04]

42. LOL It obviously burns your ass that you don't get to

control what everyone does and says.

[Catherina]

44. No. It burns my ass we have trolls masquerading as Democrats and Feminists

when the plain truth is they don't give a rat's ass about issues that affect women all around the world such as watching their children get blown up by cluster bombs.

I'm SICK to the stomach of trolls and misguided "feminists" who pine away for their genteel Southern White world where we mopped their floors and knew our place.

You're a fucking disruptor running a board where you're writing nauseating, groveling letters to McCain encouraging racist Dixiecrats to vote for him and then running back here to cause trouble when you can.

:woohoo: "Woohoo! Statistical dead heat btwn Mac and Nobama.; As of June 21" :woohoo:

:woohoo: "Obama birth certificate fake" :woohoo:

:woohoo: "Obama gay scandal!" :woohoo:

:woohoo: Chalco! You got to see Larry Sinclair in person! :woohoo:

:woohoo: "Barack Hussein Obama is a LONG~LEGGED PIMP!!!"

:woohoo: "Hail Hitler, Hail Obama"


Your hidden forum is a sight to behold. How many posts before people can see it again? 70 and mod approval?


I'm so impressed by your particular brand of, what do you call it? Oh yeah "feminism". :puke:

[BlackVelvet04]

46. LOL....poor baby, has a sick tummy? n/t

[Danger Mouse]

54. just revolted by the hate that you spew. i don't blame her.

[BlackVelvet04]

128. LOL Elrond Hubbard....

you really need to get a life and quit following me around.

If you guys don't like what you see at CH stay away. You weren't invited and your behavior is very trollish and stalkerish.

[papapi]

50. Thank you Catherina. All the usual suspects indeed.....

capitol-hill-forum certainly is exactly as you describe, a graveyard for racist, bigoted dixiecrats. Their ilk nauseates me. The pond scum has risen to the top of that forum. How long ago now is it since Hubert Humphrey made his famous speech - forty years?

[golddigger]

86. It burns my ass that you are even questioning the great one and then

Fucking mocking someone who feels the same way.

[Catherina]

93. You capitalhillforum trolls crack me up n/t

[golddigger]

130. How's your moderating duties doing over there lately?

[skepticscott]

64. Except that

the person BlackVelvet quoted was Glenn Greenwald. Have you bothered to read Greenwald's posts from the last few days and do you also classify him as a right-wing troll because of the opinions expressed there?

[Catherina]

82. It's the motives not the opinion. Greenwald's motives are miles above BlackVelvet's

a quick gander at her previous posts here and current work undermining Obama elsewhere disqualify her "concern". I've already posted and commented on Greenwald's comments elsewhere.

Obama's mis-step isn't something I have any intention of discussing with people voting for McCain and undermining the best chance this country has to start digging its way out of this mess. If I ever want to waste time talking with McCain lovers, I'll go to FR. Thanks but no thanks.

[skepticscott]

83. The facts and their implications are what they are

and the truth does not have an (R) or a (D) after it. Who you do or don't discuss it with doesn't change that. And if you seriously think that Free Republic is a bastion of McCain lovers, you know nothing about your enemy.

[Catherina]

92. Sue me then. I'm not going to waste my time with disruptors working against Obama n/t

[rebel with a cause]

106. Okay Catherina

You got me back. :hug:

[Catherina]

117. I sent you a PM. Sorry for the confusion. I should have written that more carefully

:hug:

[stillcool]

105. why would anyone care..

what 'FreeRepublic' is, or isn't? Who is your enemy? And more important who are your friends?

[skepticscott]

124. The same reason we care about

what the Bush administration is, or Blackwater, or the American Enterprise Institute or PNAC. We're in a tough, nasty fight with these people and you have to understand your enemy, how they think and what they'll do before you can destroy them. Our enemy is anyone who seeks to expand their own power and wealth at the expense of this country's well-being, its laws and its citizens, and anyone who supports such people.

[stillcool]

126. Now see, I think the enemy

is ignorance. Divide and Conquer has worked really well for the U.S. Government. Look at Iraq. 'We the people' don't have a snowballs chance in hell, as long as we are seeking to destroy rather than unite.

[BlackVelvet04]

133. If you were any good at your stalker trollish activity you would know

I'm not voting for McCain...but no, you would rather spread your little lies because you hate the fact anyone can say or do something you can't alert on. I know it really galls you people when you can't unleash your bullying buddies on those who disagree with you.

Quite frankly, Cathy, you are a pathetic loser who has nothing better to do than flit around the Internet stirring up shit. It's really rather high schoolish which isn't too surprising coming from you.

[Danger Mouse]

32. We all know how YOU feel.

[BlackVelvet04]

41. Actually you don't....

you know what I've said but not how I feel.

[Danger Mouse]

45. I think the stuff you post on that other website...

speaks volumes.
It's disappointing, because you seem like a nice person.

[papapi]

52. Hate rots the soul.

[Danger Mouse]

53. it most certainly does.

[BlackVelvet04]

129. I am a nice person....

I don't hate Obama. I very seldom feel anything even remotely akin to hate for anybody. Disagreement is not hate. Other people's posts don't necessarily reflect my feelings and life is NOT black and white. I don't have to hate to call bullshit when I see bullshit.

Seriously, if you guys don't like what you are reading there don't go there. It's really that simple.

There is a lot of manipulation tactics being used to try and squash dissent and I won't cave to manipulation. I know who I am, I know what I am and the people who know and love me know as well...that's all that's really important to me.

I find it really amazing that people who spewed hate toward Hillary Clinton and her supporters here 24/7 have the audacity to talk about hate when it comes to other people.

I've been on Internet message boards for a long time now....I've been stalked and threatened before and it's nothing new except the last time I was harassed it was by rightwingers. Amazingly enough the tactics I see now are right out of the RW playbook.

Quite frankly I think you guys should do everything in your power to get me tombstoned. It would give you something to cheer about and it looks like you could use something right about now. Of course it probably wouldn't be half as much fun when you know it wouldn't make a damn to me and trust me, it wouldn't make a damn to me.

[Danger Mouse]

136. I never spewed hate towards Clinton and her supporters '24/7'...or at all.

[dana_b]

56. the left's version of bushbot?

um, it' the left who are having the most issues with him right now on this FISA bill.

[cbc5g]

68. There's an effort from HillaryClintonforum to cause discord at DU

That person is part of it.

They tell their members there to come here and shake things up, really.

[Danger Mouse]

73. they brag about the trouble they cause, just like freepers.

[BlackVelvet04]

134. Liar. n/t

[Colobo]

27. Good choice. Barack is an intelligent man. He knows what he's doing.

[golddigger]

88. Yep, and Bush is an intelligent man. He knows what he's doing. At least thats what the

right-wringers said too.

[Danger Mouse]

96. So are you one of the Capital Hill dead-enders, too?

[Catherina]

118. Global Moderator. Member #5 n/t

[Danger Mouse]

120. Blech. DU will be a better place once ever single one of those slimeballs has been banned.

[golddigger]

131. Your just pissed because your only global moderator # 16.

[Tatiana]

30. So well-meaning but...

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIV, 1782. ME 2:207

[Danger Mouse]

33. Recommended...I want to trust him, but I'm pretty wary of any politician.

We'll just have to wait and see...

[NYC_SKP]

36. Thanks, rec'd. You speak for for me and my family. n/t

[Milo_Bloom]

37. I trust no politician.

[Skittles]

39. THANK YOU

gawd I was getting worried I was the only one

[Maven]

THANK YOU X 2

[barack the house]

40. Exactly sometimes we get so blinded by one thing that appears a misstep and miss the whole biggger

picture I haven't seen him let me down yet and I don't feel that he is letting me down now.

[opihimoimoi]

43. Tell you what...I will Trust Obama over any of them PUBs..who have a HISTORY of lying their ass off

NEVER TRUST THEM REPUBLICANS.....

Contract with America...my ass...they reneged 80%

Trust Bushies Gut Feelings?? Yeah..right...he never anything right yet....

The Pubs have the most horrid History when it comes to solutions for the People...

[rusty fender]

48. But, as President, when he throws his arms in the air and says that

there's nothing he can do but continue to fight the Iraq occupation, perhaps even sending more troops--will you still trust him to do the right thing?

[autorank]

49. Trust your friends, family, reliable associates .... but NOT politicians

No politician deserves our trust, other than that we provide when we cast a ballot, which ends the
minute that they're elected.

Reason 1: We have a political system based on money, raising money, using money, using work in the
form of money. It's not an equal system, it's one that rewards the best money raisers. Even those
who play by the "money" rules are, essentially, taking money for services. It should be changed
to public financing entirely. The inherent corruption of all involved in the system is displayed
by the simple fact that only a very, very few support exclusive public financing and none of them
are running for president.

Reason 2: In addition to that, those who seek the highest position of power can be assumed to have
an over whelming desire for power, in addition to whatever other motivation they have. This goes
for all of them.

There are particular reasons, but these two should be enough.

Trust in any politician is the equivalent of superstition in our current circumstance.

Make them toe the line, explain their positions, and push hard to keep them ln line.
We should be outcome oriented. The politicians should fear our anger when they fool around.
That's the way things work when democracy works.

[ellisonz]

77. "Trust in any politician is the equivalent of superstition in our current circumstance."

So basically:

1. Money is purely corruptive.
2. All politicians are power-hungry.

And the public has no responsibility to trust our national leaders beyond the what you describe as a the purely symbolic act of voting...


I'm guessing you voted for Nader in 2000? Because that absolutist logic borders on demagoguery...:P

[autorank]

121. Evidence based political philosophy

It's not demagoguery, it's empirically driven logic derived by simply looking at our history.

I never voted for Nader and I place him in the same category as all politicians.

I'll vote for Obama trusting that he's vastly preferable to the alternative. After that, I'll
do what any good citizen should do - watch what their elected officials do in relation to what's
needed and what has been promised. Anything else is hero worship or faith based politics.

[butterfly77]

51. K&R...

[changeplease]

55. He is a Human Being

No one's perfect. He's human, too, plus when you're a politician, you do have to play some of their games. Let's see how he votes on FISA.

[jumptheshadow]

57. I like him but he must earn my trust

Glenn Greenwald, one of the most courageous bloggers out there, has for some time written the best coverage of the assault on our liberties. He said this yesterday:

>>If there is one good thing that can come from this week's horrific embrace by Obama and our bipartisan political establishment of warrantless eavesdropping and telecom amnesty, perhaps it will be that the illusions of "lily-ness" about Barack Obama can finally fade away and be replaced by a more realistic perception of what he is, what his limits are, and the reasons why he merits real scrutiny, criticism and checks -- like everyone else pursuing political power does. Recall that the very first thing that he did upon securing the nomination was run to AIPAC to prostrate himself before them and swear undying fealty to their militant pieties. There will be plenty more of these sorts of ugly rituals to come. Whether you think he is engaging in them out of justifiable political calculation or some barren quest for power doesn't much matter.

Either way, no good comes from lending uncritical support to a political leader, or cheering them on when they do bad and destructive things, or using twisted rationalizations to justify their full-scale assault on your core political values. The overriding lesson of the last seven years is that political figures, more than they need anything else, need checks and limits. That is just as important to keep in mind -- probably more so -- when you love or revere a political leader as it is when you detest one.<<

John Adams had this to say:

"There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams <1772>.

And Thomas Jefferson said this:

"Free government is founded in jealousy, not confidence . . . . Let no more be heard of confidence in men, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitutions."

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/06/21/obama/

[changeplease]

62. Right - you should always keep your eyes open.

We'd be hypocrites if we followed anyone blindly.

[defendandprotect]

58. I think you'd be better off not trusting someone in advance . . .

take it day by day ---

So far, Obama has earned some trust ---

but let's keep our eyes and ears open ---

[Demi_Babe]

59. Obama has earned my trust thus far and I will reserve judgment on this issue

[Cha]

60. I know, Wraith..too true.

Thanks for your OP and I guesss we'll just have to wait and see how this all turns out.

It's not like we haven't had a lot of that over the last 8 years and especially during this primary.

[dkf]

61. The FISA bill is not about Obama, its about future Presidents.

Yes, we can trust him while he is in office, but we also need to thinking longer term just in case the Bushies produce more Presidents.

[jumptheshadow]

66. What about if McCain wins?

It could happen, especially if independent voters go for Bob Barr in swing states. This is precisely the scenario our candidate is flirting with at this point unless he takes some strong action this week.

Do any of you want John McCain to have expanded powers bequeathed to him by a bipartisan Congress?

[dkf]

67. Yeah Bob Barr is going to hit this hard.

I can't stand some of his opinions, but he has guts and the courage of his convictions.

[roseBudd]

69. me too, all the way to november

[eridani]

71. He's what we have

I'm saving going after him on stuff like health care until after we elect him.

[Xeolyte]

72. He's the lesser of evils ...

...and ditto to not trusting any politician. I'll vote for the man (though I don't know why I bother) because he's the lesser of evils, but I will not trust him or any politician until they tell Israel to go F--- itself.

America is past the point of no return. No matter who gets into office we will never recover.

Xeolyte

[The Doctor.]

115. LOL... well aren't you pessimistic.

No, it's not 'cynicism'. You have to have knowlege to be 'cynical'.

[fiorello]

74. Amen! I trusted Bill Clinton... and I like Obama better than I ever liked Bill...

I trusted that Bill Clinton would at least try to do the right thing... whenever he thought he could get away with it. Ditto, even more so, for Obama. One for-example: he would be " our first president who is a civil libertarian.... he made his name in the Illinois Legislature by championing historic civil liberties reforms".

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/01/opinion/01rosen.html

[Faygo Kid]

75. Yes, and at 56, my trust isn't given lightly. But he may be our best hope.

He is extraordinary. In my lifetime, I have never seen anyone like him. The product of a mixed race marriage from a non-privileged background this close to the presidency?

Plus, he's brilliant. A Constitutional Law professor, no less. And community activist.

Say what you will about America, but Barack Obama is what this country should be about.

Unlike George W. Bush, whose personal history is everything that is wrong with this country.

Stay safe, Barack.

[ellisonz]

78. ...

:toast:

[Raster]

80. Senator Obama IS our best hope. And I pray we are not too late.

Wake up America!:kick:

[RNdaSilva]

76. I, 4 2, M

[Raster]

79. Thank you Wraith. I also will trust Senator Obama.

Wake up America!:kick:

[PurgedVoter]

84. K&R

I am quite seriously for Obama. Even if I were not, I would vote for him over McSame unless he made a pretty extreme set of mistakes.

However, his statement came out just before his email asking for money. I make small donations, right after a candidate does something right. Call it 'Conditioning.' Right now, any money I send is going to Wexler. After Obama does the right thing on this, then he gets another donation. After he gets this one right, then I go back to campaigning for him. Right now, I am taking a pleasant break.

In case someone who has Obama's ear reads this, If your decision is one that Bush likes, you are making a big mistake. With Pelosi scared of the table, Bush can signing statement away anything he wants to, and pick and choose what he likes. The only result of this bill is a get out of jail free card for traitors to the constitution. Substituting a bill that gives more options to a man who has already claimed every option on the table, for the original rules, that give over site and flexibility, just weakens the balance of our government.

[debunkthelies]

87. I trust everyone

Quote:from The Italian Job) It's the devil inside them I don't trust.

[hardtoport]

89. I'm with the " don't trust politicians " contingent.

That said, I am certain Obama will be better than any president we've had for decades. Bill Clinton was better than any president we've had in decades. However, I pointed out every time Clinton screwed up and will do the same in an Obama administration.

I'm glad to see the word " trust " used as opposed to the word " faith ". I saw on another forum " I have faith in Obama " :wow:

Trust is a more apt word. I appreciate the fact that it indicates judgment based on past results, and I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see you proven right. In fact, I'm hoping, for all our sake, that you are. But I'm still going to stick with my skepticism. I personally believe politicians should always be made to feel that the public is watching their every move.

I don't feel I owe loyalty, fielty, faith, or trust to any leader. That is necessary to a monach, not an elected official.

[The_Casual_Observer]

90. A year or two will tell if your trust was misplaced.

Lately he's being challenged with a few issues where his position doesn't seem to jibe with
the progressives or "change".

[georgecolombo]

91. I'm With You

He just vanquished Hillary Clinton. I don't think we all yet appreciate the magnitude of that accomplishment. (So that I'm clear, I'm simply referring to Hillary's almost overwhelming advantages at the beginning of the campaign; I'm not in any way trying to denigrate the value of her candidacy.) I'm inclined to think that he knows what he's doing.

[trickyguy]

94. K&R too. Obama did an incredible job in the Primaries. He proved

this to all of us in the way he and his team handled everything.

I think he's smart and strong. And I admire the hell out of him.

He's going to have an incredible team in the White House.

And we're going to be on that team also.

Team Obama.:toast:

[nytemare]

95. He has an even temperment.

Something our current president severely lacks. Obama will surely need that temperment, because he has a lot to overcome with the mess this country has become.

[bonito]

97. I believe your right on n/t

[Name removed]

99. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Life Long Dem]

107. It's real easy to say I don't trust a politician than it is to say I do trust a politician

Well I don't trust politicians. But that doesn't mean I can't have some trust. And on this issue, I'm willing to give Obama a chance to earn some of this trust. And isn't that how things are supposed to work if you feel good about who your trusting?

[EV_Ares]

110. I have believed in Barack from the beginning and I still believe in him. This man

will be good for America and the World.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Doctor.]

116. How, precisely, has he "Sold out", placton?

I mean, do you have some examples that show he has put himself in someone's pocket for money or advantage?

Who owns him? Be specific.

[backscatter712]

113. Obama reminded us he's still an imperfect human.

He ain't perfect, and this isn't the first time he's said or done something I disagree with - I'm for full fledged gay marriage, he's for civil unions, as a second example.

He seems to be more for political pragmatism that he thinks will bring us to a better place, even though it goes in the wrong direction sometimes, rather than the more idealistic positions I and most of us here on DU take, that he believes will just run us into brick walls.

But still. He's a human being, struggling to make difficult decisions. But he does make those calls rather than hesitating too much or letting himself be paralyzed. And inevitably, that sometimes leads to the wrong call. Even the best leader will do this. George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, for all we idolize them, have themselves made some monumental fuckups.

But in the end of it all, after the disagreements, he's a decent human being, one with a big heart, who empathizes with the problems we all face, and one with a decent amount of talent at leadership and working to make those political wheels in the halls of power turn in the right direction once in a while, and he's a hell of a lot better than all the idiots and psychopaths on the right side of the aisle these days.

That's all we can reasonably ask from our nominees. I'm gonna try again and ask him to vote against, block and filibuster any FISA bill with telco immunity in it, but regardless, I'll be supporting him and voting for him this November.

[The Doctor.]

114. Echo That.

I have a great deal of confidence in him.

[JoFerret]

137. What a comfort that is.

.

[LanternWaste]

127. Faith can be a good thing. n/t

Faith can be a good thing. n/t

[redqueen]

132. What gets me is how we've been sold out by nearly every other Dem in congress...

repeatedly. So honestly if people are that committed to "real change NOW", then why aren't they with the Green party already?

... I dunno. I'm not rending my garments over this one.

[Raine]

138. Agreed nt

[Dems to Win]

139. Agreed. Obama: "I think we should be as careful getting out of Iraq as we were careless going in."

Brilliant. Concise yet very thoughtful. Strong criticism of Bush and McCain, yet realistic in assessing the difficulties ahead.

Obama has done well on many other issues, too.




TheWraith: I hope you are posting from the Pegasus Galaxy! The No Trespassing sign is permanently posted at the edge of the Milky Way for your kind. :evilfrown:


:D :hi:

[TheKentuckian]

140. Eyes on the prize

I for one am going to trust Obama at least to the White House. Hell, I'm a pragmatist. I have pretty high level of confidence of how much I can trust McCain (especially in his new hyper-pander mode), so I'd take the powerball quickpick's chance even if I thought Obama was extremely dicey. That however, is not the case. I don't trust politicians as far as I can throw a supermassive blackhole but I see more potential in Obama to do a mixture of the right thing and be effective than I've seen in my time.

Anybody that can put idealism to the side for a moment, knows some feints, compromises, and taking advantage of process are going to be part and parcel with actually moving things in any way towards the right direction.

You can believe in the right things and put them completely off the table by reaching too vigorously and/or directly. I believe we are under control. We're not going to get our country "back" (denoting at some point we were in control) without getting dirty and playing the game to some degree.

Maybe my opinion shouldn't matter on this one so much, to be honest. My goal at the beginning of the process was just to have a President that could speak in coherent sentences and tell a plausible lie instead of super transparent gobbledygook. Yup, Bush has lowered my expectations to the point that a decent salesman works. I've nearly went the way of the Zaphod Bebblebrox philosophy of the Presidency (for those of you that have read the Hitchhiker's books), which is that the position exists purely to distract from power. GWB failed miserably to even do that and McCain looks to be even less up to the task, with his former "Maverick" status being a sad reminder of how much bullshit that is being sold to me.

Since Eisenhower, I think it can be argued that the least boring candidate candidate has won. Bush I/Dukakis is close but Bush I had the Illuminati factor to come out firmly ahead but even that gave way to a much more distracting Bill Clinton.

See, I'm about jaded as you can get without wearing a tinfoil hat (and I'm probably pushing that, even) but I have just enough hope to actually donate and work to promote Obama. Not because I think he's some messiah but because he has the capability, background, and understanding of the system to make at least some inroads for the people.
I know we want and deserve "it all" but a taste beats the crap out of the boot to the head we've taken the better part of 40 years. I'll fight like hell for the slightest nudge of the pendulum back in the correct direction. Even to just stop the bleeding, it's worth all the effort and support we can bring to the table.

All I know is that it's always better to run the ball into the pile than to take a sack for a safety when you only have time for one drive down by a touchdown. The country is in bad shape. We not only have to get into the endzone but we have to make a two point conversion and beat the long odds. I say if we have to run the ball into the line here, then so be it. We can't punt or give up the ball, so we have to play really smart and be really tough. Billy goat tough, meaning we'll have to swallow some trash.