I'm all for reconciliation, but that doesn't mean I'm going to lie.

[TheWraith]

I'm not going to say that Clinton didn't run a poor campaign, because she did.

I'm not going to say that she didn't engage in fearmongering and smear tactics, because she did.

I'm not going to pretend that sexism killed her campaign, because it didn't.

Period. These things aren't negotiable, because they're facts. A tiny minority of the Clinton supporters here seem to be hanging on to a desire to hear that they were right all along. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Try looking at your more rational fellow Clinton backers: those who've already rejoined the rest of us, because they know the fight's over.

Speaking as somebody who took a lot of shit and unjustified attacks during the primary, I'm more than happy to let it go. I'm an adult--I don't need an apology and a band-aid. But I'm not going to cater to the subjective reality of a small handful of people who wrongly think that they speak for the masses.

If you don't want to hear my opinion, fine, that's your perogative. But don't keep demanding for us to tell you something that's not true, under the guise of "party unity."

[mudesi]

1. K & R. Lies are lies and they have no place here.

There is no popular vote, for example.

[papau]

34. True - but his facts are lies to me - sexism denial is LOL -smear was buy Obama on Hillary "racist"

card playing by campaign to imply supporter words were insensitive and she was racist - and Obama Sexism as in "what did she do - she was his wife"

But who remembers these things now that we are unified with Hillary as VP - - Oh wait, I forgot, the current unity cheer is no way for Hillary as VP BECAUSE WHERE DO HER SUPPORTERS HAVE TO GO - THEY'LL HAVE TO COME CRAWLING BACK.

[TheWraith]

53. Please, for crying out loud, type in a coherent language.

Your message is about as comprehensible as a Bush speech.

And your argument falls down at the point where you have to claim that somehow Obama forced the Clintons to spin South Carolina as just a "black voter" thing, while ignoring the fact that the Obama campaign studiously avoided the issue of race as much as possible. You also have yet to offer ONE SINGLE PIECE of evidence with regard to anything sexist done by the Obama campaign.

[terrya]

2. You're willing to "let it go", and yet you stir shit again.

Whatever.

[mudesi]

3. Why should we humor you?

If the former Clinton loyalists keep on repeating falsehoods, I'm not going to humor them.

[PoliticalAmazon]

6. I think they want to make this forum a bad knockoff of The Truman Show. n/t

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mudesi]

12. Right

I've let it go, unlike the Clinton supporters who keep on insisting that she won the popular vote, or that she lost because of sexism, or any other number of absolute lies that they still believe.

Thank God on Wednesday that they can't continue to spread them any longer.

[hokies4ever]

27. How bout them Celtics?

:rofl:

[hokies4ever]

16. ZING!

I'm with you lynyrd. As long as Hillary's surrogates keep lying about the popular vote, they should be kept on the defensive. They're trying to hold the V.P. spot hostage since they feel that Hillary is entitled to it.

[PoliticalAmazon]

4. Telling the truth is not "stirring shit." Trying to suppress the truth is guaranteed...

to produce a shit explosion because anything if suppressed always, when it is finally allowed to be expressed, explodes as a more purulent form.

[SwampG8r]

62. especially shit

because of the methane

[TheWraith]

10. No, stirring shit is expecting an apology for losing an election.

Telling the truth? Not so much.

[cboy4]

5. You have until high noon on Wednesday and then your ass

is history.

:hi:

[TheWraith]

9. You appear to be confused. Let me help you straighten things out.

See, the Wednesday noon deadline is for people to get behind the Democratic nominee. I'm behind the Democratic nominee. If one of us gets axed, I know who it's going to be.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Who's gloating?

Clinton ran a shitty, stupid campaign.

That's not gloating. Just the facts.

[polmaven]

49. Well, I do believe

that the rule about not bashing Democrats for the sake of bashing Democrats will be more rigidly enforced, even if the Democrat's name is Clinton.

[mudesi]

19. Exposing lies is not "gloating"

Sorry.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

74. It will be by Wednesday...

Get it out of your system. Her campaign is over, and there's no need to keep beating the dead horse. Making continual attacks against an opponent who has already conceded is ingracious and divisive.

I don't mean to speak for Skinner, but I'm pretty sure that people who persist in making ad hominem attacks against Sen. Clinton will not be welcome here.

[dailykoff]

20. DU rule: "Members are expected ... to support Democratic candidates for political office."

Democratic CANDIDATES, not Democratic also-rans, has-beens, and saboteurs. See for yourself:

2. Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

Sorry. :shrug:

[cboy4]

41. Yea, and since Hillary Clinton is a Democrat and I'm

a Democrat, why would you be forwarding these rules to me?

You should send them to all of your fellow Obama fans who forget what a huge favor Hillary did the other night exaggerating what a good candidate Obama is.

[dailykoff]

45. The point is she's no longer a candidate,

unlike Obama, or John Kerry (who's up for reelection), or every Dem representative (ditto), so the DU rule no longer applies to her this year.

I'm not saying it would be helpful to gratuitously bash the Clintons or any other Dems, just that she no longer warrants the rule protection a current candidate would get.

[hokies4ever]

31. You have until Wednesday too

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheWraith]

52. Obviously, you skipped over most of Skinner's message.

See, these rules are in place to prevent people from using DU as a platform to try and kneecap Democratic candidates for office, particularly with regard to primary supporters of other candidates, or Green Party types. You can cherry pick two sentence fragments and tell yourself that all the people who disagree with you are going to be tombstoned, but it just ain't so. It's directed at the people who AREN'T happy with the outcome of the primary--people like you.

Those of us who have been right have no reason to keep the fight going. You're the ones who are spending your time trying to irrationally justify the Clinton campaign after the fact, and bashing the Democratic nominee. And you're a damned fool if you think that supporting our presidential candidate against unwarranted attacks is grounds for being banned.

[cboy4]

64. Do you really think if you people keep up the attacks

against Hillary after Wednesday, you aren't in danger of violating skinner's policy?

It's not a one way street. You don't get to keep up the attacks against Hillary simply because Obama is the nominee.

More importantly, you should be far more concerned about keeping your mouth shut so you can attract as many of the 18-million Hillary supporters as possible to support Obama.

You will need every last one of them to win.

[truedelphi]

73. As an Obama supporter, I find every point you make to be

Totally right on.

It's like my dad said: Two wrongs don't make a right.

There may be H. supporters who refuse to move on, but that doesn't meant this forum should devolve into a place to continuously bash them in.

There are many other things to do right now. Other than hitting on misguided H. supporters.

And even if an H supporter isn't ready to support O, they can darn well support Kucinich in his attempt to impeach everyone he can in the Bush administration!

[SwampG8r]

63. facts=gloating?

[dionysus]

76. ROFL....

:spray:

hard for some to understand isn't it?

[LaurenG]

8. It's over - really

I'm with the rest here who really wish this would stop.

I don't care what Senator Clinton did or what Senator Obama did. It's now about McCain.

Did you know that McCain thinks that Putin is the president of Germany? So see if Senator Clinton had won, by whatever means, she still would have been 10,000,000,000 times better than a man who thinks the economy is great and that Putin rules Germany!

[Poll_Blind]

14. I'm glad you posted this. I've been watching the tone of the Clinton dead-enders and...

...its continually demanding, non-conciliatory and frankly smug tone is offensive. Each of the dead-enders (and I separate them from the bulk of previous Clinton supporters who have clearly moved on) seems to expect that we're willing to pretend along with them or face the passive/aggressive fury of their non-existent voting bloc.

  These individuals, who appear to number something under two-dozen posters, probably won't be voting for Obama anyway and I see no reason to allow them to go along with their fantasy.

PB

[hokies4ever]

28. Hillary's surrogates are making the situation worse

They need to cut out their crappy campaign for Hillary's entitlement to the V.P. spot. Obama doesn't take PAC/lobbyist money and the DNC doesn't either. Obama can't add her onto the ticket without looking like a complete hypocrite. "I don't take PAC money, but you can donate it to my V.P. though." Not going to happen.

[TexasObserver]

47. "These individuals, who appear to number something under two-dozen posters"

Never have so few said so much, and yet, said so little.

[JVS]

72. May they be gone soon.

[rucky]

15. Actually, those are all opinions.

"poor campaign"
"smear tactics"
"sexism"

All in the eye of the campaigner/tactician/sexist

Your opinions are informed opinions, but those with differing opinions think they're right too. Doesn't mean you have to agree with the others, just consider it a difference of opinion - but not a dealbreaker to party unity - and move on.

[MonkeyFunk]

17. I'm all for reconciliation, too

but that doesn't mean I'll lie.

I'll point out that Clinton got more votes than Obama.

I'll point out that Obama and his team raised false charges of racism repeatedly for political gain.

I'll point out that his supporters here lied and smeared non-stop for many months - knowingly and deliberately - to promote their candidate.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

21. Dennis Kucinich got more votes than Barack Obama in MI! I tied Barack Obama in votes in MI!

I guess I could be throwing those around as a Kucinich supporter and someone that could use a confidence boost. It doesn't make me feel any better though, because I know Obama wasn't on the ballot in MI and all of the nominees agreed that MI was not going to count. If Clinton had, BEFORE the vote, said "I am going to pursue these votes. MI must be counted! MI must be counted! I will not stop until MI is counted!" Then, Obama might have left his name on. But since she said they wouldn't be counted, he had no reason to leave his name on the ballot when he could take it off for the sake of points with Iowa and NH.

[dailykoff]

22. That would be a violation of DU rules.

"Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

[hokies4ever]

26. And Santa Claus delivers presents to Mars children too

Why stop at just a few delusional points. Let's expand! :rofl:

[TahitiNut]

32. I hope you do. ALL of those. Yes, indeed. Please do.

:bounce:

[cboy4]

38. Oh there's no question about it.

Excellent point MonkeyFunk.

[Doityourself]

43. lol

[TheWraith]

55. Except that all of your "truths" have no evidence behind them.

She got more votes, as long as you ignore a bunch of the people who voted for the other guy.

The Obama camp REPEATEDLY said they found no racist content in Clinton campaign remarks that were clearly dog-whistles, because they didn't want to engage on that front.

And would you care to provide the evidence of a massive smear campaign against Clinton?

[Sparkly]

18. "These things aren't negotiable, because they're facts."

No, they are opinions.

You have a right to them, but other people have rights to theirs, as well.

[TheWraith]

57. Opinions based on fact. Sorry, but any other course is dishonest.

Saying "Well, that's an opinion," is like telling the right-wingers that "Well, it's my opinion that the Bush administration was dishonest about the war." No--it's a fact. When you call a fact an opinion, then you open the door to the complete subjectization of reality.

[tavalon]

23. True all, but all I really have to say about that is:

Two more days.

Get it out.

[SwampG8r]

66. love the sig line

[cbayer]

24. From my understanding, you have a short time to get this out of your system.

I will be glad when that deadline has been reached.

[dailykoff]

25. I think we're going to miss you.

:hi:

[cbayer]

30. Ah, that's so sweet.

Wish I could say the same.

:hi:

[BzaDem]

54. Nice one :) n/t

[cbayer]

59. Well, thanks!

I've seen you put up some pretty classy posts yourself.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsomuah]

33. I would argue that the lies help McCain and that any liar should therefore be banned.

Many disgruntled Hillary supporters are disgruntled because they believe the lie that Hillary won the popular vote, they believe the lie that the DNC conspired to give Obama the nomination. I even read a comment on Hillary's site where someone claimed that he had "proof" that the DNC struck the Michigan and Florida delegates last year because they knew that Clinton was going to win in those states.

I would argue that given that even Hillary Clinton is not questioning the legitimacy of the primary outcome, anyone questioning the primary outcome, and therefore questioning Obama's legitimacy as a candidate is helping the reublicans by fueling the discontent.

I think that anyone who is still unwilling to wholeheartedly accept the legitimacy of Obama as the nominee, after Hillary herself has conceded is not supporting Obama's candidacy. Arguing that someone else actually deserves the nomination is the same as promoting an alternate candidate over the democratic nominee Obama, and therefore against the rules of this board.

This is just my opinion.

Perhaps we can get a ruling from Skinner?

[TheWraith]

61. That's what the week long aftermath period is for.

For the disgruntled supporters of the people who didn't get the nomination to calm down, and either get on board or leave under their own power. Anybody who tries this trash after Wednesday noon WILL be getting a granite cookie from the mods, because they look very unfavorably on attacking the Democratic nominee for the presidency.

Once that happens, and the couple dozen disruptors who are primarily responsible get canned, we'll be back to normal.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cboy4]

39. .......

:spray:

[Straight Shooter]

36. Your moniker

By the way, there really aren't that many who want to hear your opinions, and nobody is demanding anything, except in your mind.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

79. Yeah,

right - this is a place where no one has an opinion.

It is not a internet fact board but a place to read others opinions and to offer up your own.

Or maybe I was misinformed... :eyes:

[Straight Shooter]

80. My post wasn't directed at you.

The OP just likes to hear itself rant.

[highplainsdem]

37. Obama has praised Clinton and asked his supporters to be nice to her supporters

in the interests of party unity. Which is a concept many of his supporters here seem incapable of understanding.

I have never seen the kind of vicious bashing of another Democratic candidate and that candidate's supporters that we're seeing here on DU toward Clinton and her supporters. It's childish. It's sickening. And I believe much of it is due to insecurity. It was a very close primary race, and I think many of Obama's supporters were threatened by that and felt offended that she dared to do so well against their favorite. Especially later in the primary race -- so many Obama supporters would have liked it ended before she beat him in later primaries. How dare she show that she could beat him in any state!

She got approximately as many votes as he did. Get over it.

Her supporters admire her more than they admire Obama. Get over it.

The vast majority of them will vote for Obama anyway, even though they're unhappy he's the presumptive nominee...but every stupid Hillary-hating thread here alienates more of them even further.

You think you're hurting her and her supporters. In fact you're hurting Obama's chances in November.

And I wish you'd stop making party unity harder.

[Teaser]

42. I'll lie if I believe it will work.

But I don't think it will in most cases.

[AtomicKitten]

44. The truth isn't negotiable

- and it matters.

K&R

[ampad]

46. Yea you would have to lie

Kiss ass and deny reality to please some of them here. Oh you would also have to never utter a negative word about Hillary ever again or her 18 million *cough* will not vote for Obama in the GE. I find this hilarious because I know many Hillary supporters who have already become staunch Obama supporters. For them this election is more about their futures than their feelings, they understand what is at stake here. That is why I just poo poo those on DU who try the bully meme with the entire board. You know the "I thought you were for unity" "Please please don't say anything bad about Hillary" I mean seriously, if it hurts your feelings that bad to hear the truth then hide thread or ignore. It becomes an entirely different story when you go telling people what to say and what not to say because your feelings get hurt. That is no different than the bushbots questioning folks patriotism when they said anything about bad about chimpy. My criticism of Hillary has nothing to do with her looks or her personality it has all to do with the way she ran her campaign which in my opinion was divisive, unorganized and just downright crappy. I don't think she deserves the VP spot, not the way she treated the Obama camp. I have absolutely no respect for the woman because of it and I'm certainly not going to lie about it to coddle some on a message board.

[JoFerret]

48. OK. You have registered your opinion

Now - onward.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. Huge stick. Enormous pot of shit. Hard work stirring. nt.

[Cha]

51. Thanks Wraith..

I'm staying in the reality realm, too.

[Lord Helmet]

56. lying bad

truth good

[Guaranteed]

58. Stupid.

From a fellow Obama supporter:

Not lying doesn't mean that you can't simply choose to get past things, let them go. You don't have to dwell on the past and keep bringing things up over and over again.

Just stop talking about it.


This was a stupid, stupid post. Clinton supporters need to get over the campaign, and so do you.

[QC]

60. Your concern is noted. n/t

[DenverDem23]

65. An Interesting and excellent commentary!

I happen to agree with all you said in the OP.

I will NOW read other opinions on Hillary.

[JVS]

67. Great post.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[11 Bravo]

77. If by "great" you mean redundant shit-stirring, then I heartily agree.

[papapi]

69. For cryin' out loud! I feel like I'm in a room full of six year olds.

[SoCalDem]

70. yeppers.. The "alert" button will be our best pal for a while, and then

perhaps things will settle down..

I am assuming that there are several "flamebait" phrases that will no longer be tolerated.

1) 18 million voters
2) most popular votes
3) pushed out of the race
4) media was sexist
5) her campaign was not racist
6) she won the most important states


and many more, I'm sure...but for now those are the hotbutton passive-aggressive ones I will be keeping notice of.

Feigned innocence is quite noticeable as well..:)

By next month things should be better..

[cboy4]

71. Yup, I'll be alerting my ass off on all of the Obama people

who continue using all of the flamebait phrases that also will not longer be tolerated, like Hillary is a liar and Hillary is a drunk and Hillary is ugly and Hillary loves John McCain (even though she's endorsed Obama).

Obama supporters don't get to continue being abusive past Wednesday at noon SoCalDem.

Yes indeed.

[Independent-Voter]

75. All true, but I've let it go somewhat.

As long as HRC either gets on the train, or at least stays out of the damn way, I'm fine with her fading into obscurity.

[LanternWaste]

78. Or, they are facts as you've interpreted them

"These things aren't negotiable, because they're facts. "

Or, they are facts as you've interpreted them-- 'subjective reality' one might say. Something all of us are victim to.

I've read critiques of Obama's campaign that speak just as loudly and just as negatively as yours are of Clinton's-- and they also presume to have the facts and absolute knowledge on their side. And I imagine they also state, "these things are not negotiable"

I'll keep to my own (subjective) opinions-- that both played dirty when it suited them. That both played nice when it suited them. That both are politicians and that neither are deities.


The manner and format in how one speaks the truth is just as relevant as "not lying"; for a humorous example, one could imagine their SO asking, "Do these pants make my butt look big?"

I imagine we all took shit on DU-- regarldess of who we supported in the primaries.

As for me, unity and civility can begin with us... or not. We each of us have the opportunity to play it as we think best.