For VP pick, which is better: Sebelius (to get women's vote) or Webb (to get white males vote)?

[CTyankee]

I've been pondering this question and have good arguments both ways. Right now, I see Sebelius and Webb as VERY strong candidates for the VP slot.

[polichick]

1. Forget choosing another woman - supposedly Clinton won't have it!

[CoffeeCat]

10. You heard this too?????

Ok, I'm glad that someone else posted this, because I wondered if I had
a bad nightmare in which Howard Fineman said that.

Did you hear this last night on MSNBC from Fineman?

I could NOT believe what I was hearing!

So, Hillary is this ginormous champion for women. Oh, she regales
us all with stories of 140-year old women, coming up to her and wishing
and hoping that Hillary--a woman!--was President. Hillary, the woman
who screamed sexism in this campaign, and is supposedly "woman
power" personified.

It turns out--if we are to believe Fineman--that Hillary says absolutely
no way to Obama picking a female running mate!

So...Hillary is all for shattering that glass ceiling--as long as all of the
other women stay under it--peering up at HER? Hillary is all for women
rising to the highest levels of leadership in this country--as long as SHE'S
the woman doing it!

Talk about hypocrisy! This is so shameful. Editorials should be written!

And another thing--who gives a rat's ass what she wants or says?

[polichick]

11. Yep, that's the story I heard - it's Hillary or nobody. She's insane!!!

[Jersey Devil]

19. actually - it makes sense - for Hillary

If Obama wins with a woman for veep then in 8 years that woman would certainly be favored to get the nomination over hillary. With no woman veep hillary apparently thinks she could beat a male veep for the nomination.

[polichick]

23. But it certainly says she doesn't give a shit about other women.

[Jersey Devil]

37. well, I was trying to be kind in the new sense of "unity" here, but

yes, you are right.

[CTyankee]

21. Any confirmation on this or is it just a rumor?

n/t

[hokies4ever]

27. It was reported on MSNBC with not much substantive backing to such a harsh statement.

[karynnj]

74. She has no veto power and that is an outrageous demand if made

It also doesn't stand the test of being rational. How does HRC defend the idea that ALL women should not be given consideration. How can she explain to feminists that women should be excluded from the selection process?

In fact, as her position as nominee was likely due to being married to Bill - this is particularly obnoxious.

[Mezzo]

2. cripes the OP is both sexist AND racist at the SAME TIME.

:popcorn:

[polichick]

8. I hope you're kidding.

[End Of The Road]

9. LOL -- that was my first thought, too...

I was going to call it out, but why waste keystrokes...

[Danger Mouse]

15. care to explain how, exactly, or is this just a (moronic) hit and run?

[psychopomp]

70. And yours is both stupid and annoying

:think:

[pbca]

3. I kinda like Richardson myself

But would be happy with either Sebelius (I worked on her campaign back when she ran for insurance commissioner) or Webb as well.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

31. Richardson thinks I chose to be gay.

[pbca]

33. Sorry? I didn't know that about him

[polichick]

41. That was such a weird statement he made - I thought maybe he was confused...

...about the question.

[eissa]

4. Neither

I'm going with either Gov. Tom Kaine, Gov. Brian Schwitzer (sp?), or former Sen. Sam Nunn.

[CTyankee]

36. I admire Schweitzer but he doesn't have much experience as he is in his first

term as governor. I'm blanking on Kaine (???).

[SteppingRazor]

5. I'd like to avoid another congressperson on the ticket if at all possible...

which, of course, rules out Webb. I like Richardson, but Sebelius would be great too.

[hokies4ever]

32. Agreed, especially since McCain is likely to choose a governor

more likely Romney than Jindal or Huckabee. Two senators on the same ticket would just SCREAM a lack of executive experience.

[SteppingRazor]

49. The possibility of Jindal has, I think, skyrocketed in the last 24 hours.

a) Now that Obama is the nominee, it's a bit more likely that the GOP will put a man of color on the ticket in a shameless effort to contrast him with Obama.

b) McCain gave his speech last night in Louisiana. That may be no accident.

[mikelgb]

6. how about Kucinich to get my vote

:eyes:

[grantcart]

7. Fortunately our nominee is going to get the best person

and then we get to be surprised to find out what boxes that person fits into

[CTyankee]

20. the "best person" is always a ticket balancer, at least since I've been voting in Presidential

elections. I remember how LBJ was JFK's pick because of his weight with the Southern vote.

[musette_sf]

12. i pick Webb

(to get the votes of Virginians, and also to reality-check vs. McSame)

[WeDidIt]

13. Lee L. Mercer (all three)

[SoxFan]

51. Hear, Hear!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[napi21]

14. Webb, but NOT because he's a white male! Because he's an

experienced military man who is very respected by both parties and would help offset some of the criticisms of Obama! It would make a fantastic ticket.

The other suggestion I have is Joe Biden. With HIM, you have experience in foreign policy, domestic policy, and one of the few common sense people in the Senate!

HOWEVER! I don't want to raid the Senate any more than we already have! We'll NEVER gain a super majority if we keep stealing Senators!

[TheDonkey]

18. Webb intrigues me more too because of his connection with MO and VA. Two swing states

that O could legitimately snag.

[ellisonz]

22. Ditto.

[Zomby Woof]

57. Webb is also an economic populist

He has a union card, walks picket lines with workers, and KNOWS what working Americans are facing. He can soundly advise Obama in that regard as much as national security and other foreign policy issues.

But Biden? Feh. That would do a great deal to undo the mantra of 'change' and newness Obama is supposed to deliver. Biden goes where the wind blows (which is why he is popular with Democrats now, but you should look at DU's archives from 2002-03). I have been keeping track of his opportunism and selling out since Reagan was in office. He has the principles of a weasel on meth.

[karynnj]

73. NO

Record of insensitively to women
Highly unlikely to genuinely take a back seat and follow Obama on all issues
Loose Cannon
Too much Baggage

Biden - at least was a Democrat through those Reagan years, sponsored the crime bill and bills protecting women. There are many Senators I prefer to Biden, but he votes with us FAR more consistently than Webb does. On National Security, I would prefer Obama listening to Richard Clarke and the people allied to John Kerry. ( My husband and I met Clarke at a wedding of a friend's daughter in summer 2007. When asked by someone (not me) he said he was advising Obama and was impressed with his questions and that he was a quick study - but said he knew HRC would be the nominee.) Kerry's position on National security in 2004, was before it's time - but was based on him being one of the very few in DC who took non-state terrorism seriously in the 1990s. He wrote the legislation - blocked in the 1990s - that currently deals with international money laundering and he led the investigation that closed BCCI. Since 2007, Kerry and others have set up what they want to be a bipartisan national security think tank which Gary Hart is heading.

I do think that Webb is great on veterans issues.

[karynnj]

71. Biden yes, Webb no - his reputation on women in the miliary would be an insult to those who thought

this could be a year that a woman would win the Presidency. Not to mention, I suspect that he would be unable to take the secondary role of giving Obama's position - not his when he disagrees. In 2004, it hurt when the campaign seemed undecided between "help is on the way" and "hope is on the way". In 2007, Edwards proudly explained that he refused to use Kerry's slogan, because he thought it sounded silly. Like Webb, Edwards had not been in politics long and clearly - even in retrospect did not see this as wrong. It was a point he brought up in 2007! Can you imagine Gore having done that in 1992? (Edwards at least sees now that he was not happy being a VP)

On many issues, including at least one inportant global warming vote, Webb voted with the Republicans. Why do people respond here, on DKos and other liberal boards with shock, Webb???? every time he doesn't vote with us on important issues. There is also the matter of his dishonest 2004 anti-Kerry almost SBVT op-ed.

It was his right to hate Kerry - even if a 30 year hatred and refusing to shake an outstretched hand shows a very unattractive side of him - but it was not his right to lie. If he thought Kerry lied that would be one thing, but he used in fiction the same type of atrocities that Kerry quoted other men as saying they personally did. Kerry was invited to speak of that event - instead Kerry quickly summarized the gist of the contentions - in as non inflamatory a way as possible - essentially in a list, then quickly moved to the three bigger issues he wanted to make.
- that the war was unwinnable and the leaders knew it, but didn't want to lose face ( famous line - How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?
- spoke of the country not doing enough to re-integrate the returning vets and not adequately providing medical and psychological assistance. famous line - Where are the leaders? (he spoke of the vets being abandoned and speaks of how the poor and minority were bearing the greatest burden. These comments were not calling for help for the Yale educated Kerry, healthy, happily married, surrounded by a huge extended family and powerful friends. This was an extremely privileged man fighting for those with the least and risking a political career to do so. Soon after this appearance, Kerry left the VVAW to join people like Bobby Mueller forming VVA, which has been the leading advocate organization for Vets on things like PTSD and Agent Orange - both issues Kerry was involved in.
- spoke of the need to change foreign policy - something Kerry still is pushing for and now sees Obama as the one who could lead it.
famous line: “when small boys ask why, we will be able to say “Vietnam” and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory but mean instead the place where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning.”

The reason for Webb's anger is that Kerry said the war could not be won. That is the reason for a 30 plus year hatred. Now, I could argue that MaCNamara, the architect of the war who was in a place to know when Webb was NOT, said in "Fog of War" that he and others knew that the war could not be won in 1968. As Kerry has often said, this was before half the men on the Vietnam War memorial died. Let's take the other side that it could be won, did Kerry do anything wrong stating something he clearly believed to the core of his being? Kerry's comments on that were clearly opinion and were spoken to the Senate which also heard from Generals and diplomats.

Why should this STILL be an issue - it shows a very inflexible intolerant person. Even as Webb sees the SAME thing in Iraq, he has not had the intellectual honesty to reassess his opinion of Vietnam. The other issue is that the op-ed included lies about Kerry's work on Vietnam in the 1990s. It is border line SBVT material and because of Webb's status hurt our 2004 candidate. These are reasons, beyond his bad global warming and FISA votes, that I do not think he should be a Democratic President - the standard on which VPs are picked. In addition - he has baggage. DU loves his bluster and it is why he is a favorite - over many people whose records are far better, but that loose cannon aspect is a negative. He also has baggage - the women's issues one is the most important - especially given the dynamic of HRC not being chosen, but that he is on marriage 3 and his books do provide some issues.

It is a measure of Kerry's graciousness, genuine love of country and party, that he put these actions aside and endorsed Webb in the primary, including raising much of Webb's primary GOTV money - something Webb was not that good at. That endorsement was important - as there were VA people who voted for him who because of his 2004 actions wouldn't have voted for him in the primary - and Kerry was the only one who could push them to forgive it.

[PoliticalAmazon]

16. Oh, for pity's sake. How about Obama pick the best person for the job....

Discrimination is discrimination, and if you favor one candidate over another because of their race or gender, that is discrimination.

[CTyankee]

29. I agree with your point on discrimination, but surely you know that the VP slot

is almost always a ticket balancer. Remember JFK picking LBJ to get the Southern vote.

Sometimes it doesn't really matter, if the head of the ticket is headed nowhere or is very popular. Nobody cared when LBJ ran in 64 or Reagan for his second term. They were gonna win, no matter the VP candidate.

A woman who is both a midwesterner and a governor would help with women who are disappointed that Hillary didn't make it. Webb brings a Southern state and he is a gun owner and hunter and that offsets the whole "elite" thing.

[Dinger]

17. Then You Have Two Senators Who Didn't Finish Their First Term

Doesn't being in the Senate count for anything anymore? Is it nothing but a stepping stone? We don't have much of a majority there, and we NEED Democratic senators, don't we?

[gateley]

26. Yes - we need a lot more Dem Senators --

So I propose Brian Schweitzer. He's good for a lot of reasons, and he's a Governor - not a Senator.

Although I rather like the idea of Wexler, if we ARE going to rob the Senate.

[thoughtcrime1984]

24. Sebelius!

She is a great leader, I don't care what bloc she does or doesn't bring.

[Phoonzang]

25. Schweitzer n/t

[jesus_of_suburbia]

28. Webb

[Sensitivity]

30. Race and Gender should not be a consideration: National Security strength is the critical criteria

[CTyankee]

34. Yes, you are right. I thought of Wes Clark but he has no political experience in office.

He would certainly fit the mold of strong national security candidate tho.

[On the Road]

35. I Would Have Said Webb a Few Weeks Ago

But the accusations of sexism (even sexual harrassment?) would really not be good with the Clinton supporters Obama is trying to win over.

[CTyankee]

40. Ooh, I forgot about that! Yes, it could be ugly and we want it pretty.

n/t

[CTyankee]

43. Ooh, I forgot about that! Yes, it could be ugly and we want it pretty.

n/t

[Gore1FL]

38. Selelius -- but not for that reason

Of the two choices pick a non senator.

[Radical Activist]

39. Webb helps rally the military vote and his economic populist message

will help in the South and Midwest. He's a great pick on many levels.

[SeattleGirl]

42. I've asked this before, but got no response, so I'll ask again:

What is the big deal about Sebelius?

I'm not asking in a snarky way. I would really like to know, from those who support her for VP, what her positives are.

Anyone?

I just don't know that much about her; that's why I'm asking.

[CTyankee]

44. Governor of Kansas and has a good reputation as far as I have heard

for her leadership.

[SeattleGirl]

45. Thanks.

I'll have to do some checking for myself, too.

The only impression I have of her isn't very positive. I heard her response to one of Bush's radio addresses, and didn't think she sounded very strong at all.

But I also know that one instance doesn't show who someone is.

[woolldog]

52. I don't get the fascination with Sebelius either.

Even in her home state of Kansas she polls even with Edwards as a VP choice.

Check out my old thread on this topic:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6175919

[Labors of Hercules]

58. Of course she does... The Dems in Kansas are scared to lose her as Governor.

She's got the highest approval ratings of any red state governor in the country.

[woolldog]

59. So the dems polled are hiding their true feelings from a pollster

b/c they want to manipulate the poll results b/c they don't want her to poll well, so that she stays put?

That's hard to believe and probably overstates the importance that voters place on their answers to pollsters.

[Labors of Hercules]

60. not really. How hard is it to say no?

we don't want her to be VP.



















(because we want her to continue as our Governor).

[woolldog]

62. but that's not what the survey asks.

It simply polls Obama/Seblieus v. McCain/Romney and asks how they would vote.

I highly doubt democrats are answering McCain/Romney because they're scared of Sebelius polling well and so being chosen as VP and so not being able to complete her term as governor. That's a bizarre interpretation as far as I'm concerned.

[Labors of Hercules]

63. then the survey is meaningless.

She's in a red state. It doesn't matter who you put on the Democratic ticket w/ Obama, it will poll virtually the same until his ticket has time to seed itself.

[woolldog]

64. *sigh*

:banghead:

As compared with Edwards, she doesn't even increase his share among the democratic electorate (it stays at 60-something percent, Edwards increases it slightly). That's not because of a lack of name recognition. That has nothing to do Kansas being a red-state. She would be a weak VP pick for him.

[Labors of Hercules]

65. Your logic is infallable. don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

your conclusions, however... :eyes:

[loyalsister]

46. Sebelius

only with Clinton's blessing. Obama needs to continue to show grace and not make any moves that are a slap in the face.

NOT Webb. We need to keep him in the Senate. And his history on women's issues is not so great.

If it is a man it needs to be a man who has a strong relationship with feminists.

[cloudythescribbler]

47. Sebelius's good, so is Stabenow; Boxer's better; (Bob Graham or Brian Schweitzer might do well also)

Boxer has lots more national and foreign policy experience than Sebelius, although might not appeal to all the same demographics.

Boxer voted NO on the Iraq War Resolution, as did MI senator Stabenow (who might appeal deeply in the midwest, and among the proverbial 'white working class'). Boxer could help carry Florida, Bob Graham (who's been BOTH a senator and a governor, and voted NO on IWR).

Schweitzer, gov of MT is said by many to be a political master stroke, and might help in areas where Obama would be otherwise less strong

[Crunchy Frog]

48. Webb, and it's not just white males.

There are very legitimate national security concerns in this country, and that transcends gender and race. IMO it's VERY important that this ticket have foreign policy and national security creds.

[Mimosa]

50. Bill Richardson: more name recognition

Plus he has lots of experience.

[XemaSab]

53. I reject your premise

That women will vote for a woman and white men will vote for a white man.

[LittleBlue]

54. Difference is Webb can deliver his state

Sebelius cannot, from polls and historical data.

[knixphan]

55. KSeb

Sebelius works. I dare any progressive woman to vote for McCain over Barack/Kathleen

[apocalypsehow]

56. I'm for Governor Sebelius for all sorts of reasons - not the least of which is I'm originally from

Kansas. But even if I were not, I think I'd be impressed by her leadership and political skills. She has a good record, and would bring a lot to the ticket.

That said, I'm so relieved this finally appears to be over that I don't really care all that much about the VP pick right now.

:party: :toast: :party:

[Tommy_Carcetti]

61. Neither.

Webb is too new in politics and is another Senator to boot.

Sebelius most people don't know who she is, doesn't offer much geographically, and despite the fact she is a woman she has always been a strong Obama supporter and I don't think she really is a good bridge candidate.

The best candidate: Wesley Clark.

Who we'll probably get: Bill Richardson, who at least will bring in a lot of Hispanic support.

[livingmadness]

66. Webb. My feminine intuition sez its going to be Webb! n/t

[TeamsterDem]

67. I'm not sure either automatically delivers the demographic you described

but I prefer Sebelius because she is EXTREMELY smart and well-spoken, and unlike Webb with his anti-female writings she doesn't seem to have as much baggage.

[Marrah_G]

68. I am a woman and I would pick Webb over Sebilius- I am not crazy about either as a running mate.

[tammywammy]

69. Richardson n/t

[frickaline]

72. Not Webb. I believe he would completely alienate feminist voters.

He doesn't have the cleanest record when it comes to women's issues.

And there are far more than just the 2 choices here.

[kennetha]

75. Picking a woman who is not HIllary

would be an insult to 18,000,000 democrats (mostly) who voted for Hillary.