I personally don't hold it against McCain that he caved to N. Vietnamese torture

[PretzelWarrior]

I've heard torture can leave a person emotionally and mentally scarred for life. He served his country, was shot down, and came close to making the ultimate sacrifice.

If anyone knows war is hell it ought to be McCain. That is why I can only imagine his statements about going to war with Iran are the ravings of a man with deep seated emotional issues and an abiding rage he can't let go of.

That is why I'm also grateful we have a strong presidential candidate so that McCain--war hero that he is--gets nowhere near the Oval Office with power of president.

[anonymous171]

1. I respect his service, that's it.

[PretzelWarrior]

2. you must pay attention to the subtext of the post title

and subsequent words. NO ONE went aftr McCain's rage or mild insanity issues the way we are going to this summer and fall.

[funflower]

15. Right. Like thousands of others, he served.

It was terribly unfortunate for him that he was shot down, and he did what it took to survive as a POW for 5 years. But, like those who died, came home disabled or served stateside, the choice he made was simply to serve.

[boppers]

59. Like those who died, or came home disabled?

...er, he came home unable to lift his arms above his head, they had gotten so damaged. I mention this so you can avoid foot->mouth, in case you didn't know how badly (and permanently) his body had gotten messed up. (I wasn't sure from your phrasing.)

He's been pulling in roughly $58K a year(!) off of his disability pension.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-pension22apr22,1,6562984.story

:toast:

[babylonsister]

3. He's too old to run on that for long; there's too much at stake. IMO. nt

[XemaSab]

4. My friend's dad is a retired Marine

and he says being a POW either totally messed McCain up psychologically and he should be nowhere near the presidency, or if it didn't, he's a creepy person who should be nowhere near the presidency. :P

[PretzelWarrior]

5. why...I believe that's a Catch 22!! : )

[XemaSab]

6. Might be, yeah

:D

[sandnsea]

12. My cousin was a POW

I think your friend's dad needs to meet a POW or two before he goes shooting his mouth off.

[XemaSab]

13. Not to dis your cousin and his experience

But Mr. Olson's rationale was pretty carefully considered. Of course I'm paraphrasing what he said, so something's probably lost here. The man volunteered for Vietnam, and is one of that rare breed who think we should have stuck it out and fought on. He's very angry about the whole war, and the role of liberals in ending the war. I can't judge his experience, but I think he's speaking from a position of understanding that I am not privy to.

But he said what McCain went through was so horrible that he can't imagine McCain's not horribly scarred emotionally, and someone damaged like that might not make well-reasoned decisions. Or something to that effect.

[AngryAmish]

27. everyone knows the experience demented Churchill

[On the Road]

31. I Did Not Know Churchill Was a POW

Was that during the Boer War? It explains some things about him.

[AngryAmish]

62. yup

I don't think being a POW of the Mahdi was conducive to a long life (actually the mahdi was dead then but you get the picture.)

[On the Road]

64. Come of Think of It,

isn't there some story about his escaping from a camp? That kind of thing can either soften a person or make them ruthless and aggressive.

[AngryAmish]

65. He did escape

IIRC, he jumped out an outhousse window and made a run for it. It was after that stunt he became nationally known in Britain.

[rebel with a cause]

7. the way Obama campaigns

if mccain tries to keep up with him, he'll be too pooped to pop. :rofl:

[PretzelWarrior]

8. McCain will be playing defense in Arizona, NC, hell..Alabama

it is not going to be pretty watching GOP dump so much money on losing efforts just to barely retain wins in the south. By doing so they will lose key battle ground states.

[calimary]

9. Completely agreed! Hey, we all have to get by. What I object to, though, is his whoring it around

and draping himself with it - for the express purpose of painting himself as the ultimate more-patriotic-than-thou (especially more-patriotic-than-Obama). It also completely confounds the mind that, having been in the service, seen combat, and been a POW who faced torture that left him injured and needing some pretty intense and long-running treatment back home, he would ever even consider failing to support measures like the "GI Bill" that just passed the Senate. Hillary and Barack both stepped off the campaign trail to return to Washington to vote for it. mcsame was too busy fundraising even to show up. A combat veteran and a former POW! Wouldn't even vote for improved benefits for his latter-day brothers and sisters in arms. Said it was "too generous," anyway!!!!!!

:wtf:

[PretzelWarrior]

10. the guy's a stingy, grumpy old man

but he did look sharp in his dress whites way back in the day.

[rebel with a cause]

11. Also that he did not come out against W on the

torturing thing. I don't think he should have supported W at all after he found out our forces were using water boarding and other such things. Something that could be used against him, I think.

[CJCRANE]

17. Yes, because the admin supports using information

gained by torture. So in a sense the Repubs are validating the VC torture of McCain as justified. That also puts McCain's confession under torture into question.

If torture is an effective interrogation tool then McCain's confessions were genuine and he was a traitor.

If torture isn't effective then the whole Shrub torture policy is producing garbage and making America less safe.

[Youphemism]

14. I think the "caving" label is unfair...

...unless you think it somehow advantaged the Vietnamese to know the Green Bay Packers' starting lineup.

McCain has many weaknesses as a candidate, but I think saying he "caved" is wrong. He gave unimportant and incorrect information, which is what you're told to do, and even then, only on the brink of death in a hospital, after being beaten and losing 50 pounds. The guy pretty much defined (back then) the term "war hero." That's why it's so striking that nowadays he's changed his position on torture (and so many other things).

He has many, many weaknesses as a candidate. It would be a bad idea to focus on this one issue at all. It's what he's used to get where he is.

From Wikipedia... The full story is a good read. It doesn't qualify him to be president, but it can't be legitimately used against him. It would only help his campaign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_military_career_of_John_McCain#Prisoner_of_war

Interrogation and beatings resumed in the hospital; McCain gave his ship's name, squadron's name, and the attack's intended target. Further coerced to give future targets, he named cities that had already been bombed, and responding to demands for the names of his squadron members, he supplied instead the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line.

He was placed in a cell with two other Americans (one was George "Bud" Day, an Air Force pilot and future Medal of Honor recipient), who did not expect him to live a week. They nursed McCain and kept him alive; Day would later remember that McCain had "a fantastic will to live."

...In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years. Unknown to the POWs, in May 1968, Jack McCain was named Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command (CINCPAC) effective in July, stationed in Honolulu and commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater. John McCain was soon offered a chance to return home early. The North Vietnamese wanted a worldwide propaganda coup by appearing merciful, and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially. McCain turned down the offer of release, due to the POWs' "first in, first out" interpretation of the U.S. Code of Conduct: he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well. McCain's refusal to be released was even remarked upon by North Vietnamese senior negotiator Le Duc Tho to U.S. envoy Averell Harriman, during the ongoing Paris Peace Talks.

[mamalone]

16. Youphemism, thank you for sharing this info...

And to the OP, let's not go here. The man acted in a courageous and honorable manner in an unbelievably difficult circumstance. To pretend otherwise and attempt to diminish his service only ends up diminishing ourselves. Let's be better than this.

Besides there is more than enough real, current reasons to criticize and denigrate the man. Let's concentrate on those things!

[rebel with a cause]

18. Recognize his valor those years ago

and then question why he accepted torture done on others during the bush administation. Point out the differences of the mccain of say twenty years ago and the one today. They could/will do the same with Obama about his drug use, but here there is an improvement over the years. With mccain there is a loss of conscience due to his lust for power.

[mamalone]

19. Precisely!

We could actually use the honoring of his past service as a contrast to his present stands on these issues. I like the way you think:)

[rebel with a cause]

21. Thank you.

Thank you very much. (In my best Elvis impersonation) :)

[NNN0LHI]

26. He also made propaganda tapes for the Viet Cong which your wikipedia link curiously omits

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23301752-663,00.html

John McCain's account of Viet Cong torture

<snip>Later, I made a second, feebler attempt at suicide. On the fourth day, I gave up. I signed a confession that "I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pilot".

The guards ordered me to record my confession on tape. I refused, and was beaten until I consented.

[Youphemism]

32. McCain would be a horrible president...

...but until you've lost 50 pounds, been beaten and tortured until your hair turns white, and are handed a piece of paper to sign that has to be read to you because you're too battered and sick to read it yourself, don't tell me what a human being should be able to tolerate.

Don't make me defend McCain. I hate doing it. But this is a losing issue for Democrats to pick on. And there are LOTS of good ones -- especially that, given this torture, he would change his mind on allowing US forces to torture others. To me, *that* is unfathomable, and a clear sign that he is not the John McCain who, after all of that, signed up for two more years of it just because they wouldn't let his fellow soldiers go home with him.

There is nothing not to admire and respect about what he did back then. There is *so much* not to admire and respect about what he's done *since* then. He is not the same person. If you point out what he was then compared to what he is now, you win.

But to try to attack what he did back then is a losing argument, and it's also just plain wrong.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

34. I agree with your post.

fwiw

[cliffordu]

54. Yep. I just LOVE keyboard tough guys who can impugn what happens

to people in POW camps....and the Hanoi Hilton was particularly festive.

I think anyone who thinks they won't talk or beg or crap themselves or offer sex under torture should let a couple guys I know come over and extract their bank card PIN in under 20 minutes.

Really.

Everybody talks. Everybody reads whatever the captors want them to....


Take an Escape and Evasion course some time, and see if you can stand a SIMULATION of torture.

Disgusting. McCain shouldn't be allowed anywhere NEAR the White House, but bringing the Hanoi Hilton into it SHOULD be beneath us as a party.

edit for speling(sic)

[busymom]

20. I have nothing but respect for John McCain

I can also say that I will not accept a campaign this Fall that goes after him in a personal way that attacks his mental health etc after surviving what he did.

If Obama can win this on policy, then I won't be a part of it.

Oh...and my mom (also a vietnam war vet) knows McCain personally. She is a democrat, and she voted for Clinton. But she has sat across from this man and his wife at dinner and would tell you a very different story from what the media comes out with.

[beachmom]

24. I 100% agree that we don't go after his service or him personally.

Obama said in his speech last night that he will not tolerate his campaign doing that (and I think it was a warning shot to 3rd party liberal groups, too).

As to your second paragraph, what do you mean about a "very different story from what the media comes out with"? Good or bad?

[beachmom]

22. Sheesh -- repeating Rove talking points from 2000? We can do better than that.

[IsItJustMe]

23. I respect his service, and yet I also am very concerned about his mental health.

[depakid]

25. You may have noticed in his speech last night that he has a slight slur on certain words

that's one of things I've noticed with people who are in the very early stages of dementia. We had a name we used to call it among ourselves:

"Lazy talk."

It's usually more pronounced in the evening hours- part of the sundowners deal.

[mtnsnake]

28. With all due respect to what McCain went through, your post is gutter material of the lowest form

Swiftboaters would be proud of you :thumbsdown:

John Kerry would flush your post down the toilet along with you in it.

[PretzelWarrior]

35. possibly. but I don't want another crazy guy for president

I think we should all get purple hearts for being so wounded by 8 years of Bush.

[moondust]

29. His military service did nothing to qualify him to be CINC.

Some people gain valuable leadership experience in the military. Look at the real experience gained by Eisenhower, Patton, Wes Clark, Schwarzkopf, et al. in commanding large campaigns. That's the kind of experience that qualifies somebody to be CINC.

McCain went from 30,000 feet to a small prison cell. He saw very little of the actual war. If he (and Hillary!) wants to claim he is qualified to be CINC he needs to base it on something other than his own military experience.

[Thothmes]

37. There is no Consitutional requirement to have any

military experience to be the President of the United States. Harry Truman was an artillery officer in WWI, Abe lincoln's military experience was a couple of months Illinois militia duty during the Black Hawk War. JFK commanded a PT boat during WWII. All of these men proved to be very capable CinCs during their terms in office. None of them ever commanded any military formation larger than a company. FDR never wore a uniform in life. Made a hell of a CinC thought. U.S. Grant commanded more soldiers in combat than either Patton or Schwarzkopf. Look at his tenure as CinC. The current Pope has more combat experience than either of the two contenders for the Democratic Presidential nomination. So What.

[moondust]

38. I'm talking about McCain, Hillary, and others inflating his resume.

Sorry you missed the gist of my post.

[PretzelWarrior]

39. agreed. Clinton kept the peace with 0 experience

[Hepburn]

30. This is really uncalled for.

McCain is a total asshole ~~ but NOT in consideration of his service to his country.

Shit like this is the kind of stuff that Freepers do and say ~~ remember what was done to John Kerry?

We are above this...we are the DU.

[PretzelWarrior]

36. yep. well the same and MUCH WORSE has been done to Obama

by supposed DEMOCRATS on fucking DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND. Please waste your scolding on some of those black hearts.

McCain is a scum and he should suffer the humiliation of a 45 state landslide defeat.

[Hepburn]

66. He is a scum for what he believes in...

...like supporting that fucking immoral war in Iraq. But...he is NOT scum cuz he honorably served.

Sorry...but NO slam on his service to his country is OK with me. I lost too many friends in VN and saw too many come back that it might have been better if they had not.

Leave it alone and I am not scolding...I am just respectfully requesting that nothing on the DU smack of Freeperism. Blasting VN Vets for their service IMO is not the way to go.

Thanks...:hi:

[PretzelWarrior]

33. some of you are clueless on this

the whole point is that he WAS a war hero. yes. we get it. That was many, many, many years ago. He's had a huge long record of bad acts in personal life and public life since then....and his singularly horrifying experiences some of you detailed so well are PRECISELY what I'm trying to get to.

As great of a hero as he was for undergoing what he did...it quite possibly has some serious negative ramifications as to how he would be have as president.

I guess what I'm saying by drawing attention to that is....yes, he may have a very good excuse for it being so...but at the end of the day, he is unfit to lead.

[cynatnite]

42. His being unfit to lead is NOT based on his military record...

That's what the repukes were doing to Kerry.

McCain said before the Iraq War started that it would be short, sweet and we'd win. His wanting a third term of bush is what will win us the WH.

NOT THIS.

[cynatnite]

40. His time as a POW should not be used like this...that's a Rovian tactic...

Karl Rove did this during the 2000 campaign. The repukes love to trash military records. They did it with Kerry and Max Cleland.

Let them have that distinction...not us.

[PretzelWarrior]

41. it's Rovian to question his mental stability?

ok. I thought it was common sense. attack your opponent's weakness. I'm not questioning his service.

[cynatnite]

43. You are questioning his service by using his time as a POW against him...

The repukes did that already in 2000. Karl Rove was behind it. It was despicable then and it is now. The repukes are all about this kind of crap.

[msallied]

51. yeah, they sure did do that to him. Then he campaigned hard for them in 2004

and continues to kiss their asses to this day, proving to me that he's all about the politics. In fact, it's this aspect of politics that always turns my stomach. The selling-out part.

[cynatnite]

52. Exactly...

I might have voted for him over Gore if he'd gotten the repub nomination. McCain did sell out and I was completely pissed. I used to like that asshole.

[msallied]

44. I think that it was shameful of him, after having experienced torture,

to have voted against the ban on it. Shameful political maneuvering. It made me sick and was the last straw for me regarding him. I will not hold what happened to him as a young man against him. That's wrong. But I do think that it was a pivotal time in his life that affects him to this day and it really cannot be ignored. It has to be used carefully without denigrating him for his service. We don't want to be ghouls here. There are plenty of other things he has done over the years that are fair game in taking his ass down.

[QC]

45. This was one of the elements of the South Carolina whispering campaign

against McCain back in 2000.

The other was the accusation that he had a daughter by a black prostitute.

You are truly in classy company.

McCain's an asshole, but not because he was a POW.

[Robeson]

46. I wouldn't have to be tortured to give away information....

...the threat of torture would have me singing like a bird. So, no I certainly wouldn't hold the torture thing against him.

Does he have some deep psychological residue from his experience? I'm sure he does. However, it would be political suicide for us to go there.

[PretzelWarrior]

47. like it was for Bush? I don't think so.

Obama doesn't have to. But many including the obsessive 24 hr cable media can launch into all of that.

[Robeson]

50. We're talking McCain, not Bush. And I'm talking about the Obama campaign...

...I could give a rat's ass what the media talks about.

[PretzelWarrior]

55. the Obama campaign won't go there. but I will so nyah nyah

I just think it's taking one of the FEWWWW strengths of McCain and turning it into a potential liability. sorry you disagree. we'll have to see if Obama is able to keep it above the gutter unlike me.

[Robeson]

56. I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm an Obama supporter, ...

...so who's the TS for?

[PretzelWarrior]

58. my bad. I thought I was replying to Goldie down below

post fixed.

[Robeson]

60. No problem....

...:thumbsup:

[GoldieAZ49]

48. Obama caved and denounced Wright with far less pressure

and then dumped the church too, a profile in "judgement" ...

[msallied]

49. You will use any opportunity you can to slam Obama, won't you?

Even when the subject is McCain. Your bitterness and hatred is staggering.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bhikkhu]

53. He is hopeless on the issue of competence.

Leave him alone otherwise.

[Robeson]

61. Agree 100%....

...I think it will become self-evident.

[Balbus]

63. I question his ability to be a competent president, but...

never doubt for a moment that John McCain is, and always will be, a war hero. "Caved" my ass...