If Hillary Clinton won the popular vote

[Aussie leftie]

and Barack Obama won the nomination with the support of the Democratic Party Hierarchy (super delegates) why bother having the primaries in the first place. It would have saved both candidates a lot of money, energy, time and angst. Was it just an audition that we have been witnessing since January?

I don't care how many people this upsets, but I would like to say that for all the insults and innuendo that Hillary Clinton had to contend with, she proved to me that she has a lot of class and would have made an excellent president. God help the next female that dares to consider being president.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

1. she did some things that weren't classy

I'm sorry if you are in Australia you may be out of touch with what has really been going on?

[Aussie leftie]

16. You'd be surprised how much us Aussies know

We even have TV now

[roguevalley]

53. for her to 'win' the popular vote, she has to toss my state and the

rest of the caucus states overboard. don't think she cares. she doesn't.

[JackORoses]

54. wait until you discover the wonders of toilet paper...

did you know that 15 states do not tally a popular vote because they hold caucuses?

this is why the nominee is determined by delegates.

[jespwrs]

2. this post

Makes absolutely no sense on any level. All you have proven is that you have no idea what you are talking about.

[mcctatas]

3. Oh please.....

Neither one of them could have won without super delegates, but her counting of the popular vote is bullshit and he beat her in PLEDGED delegates 1761 to 1636.

It wasn't about sexism, it wasn't about unfair media coverage, it was about the people and the votes, if that is too much for you to deal with, I'm sorry, but reality bites...

[Yotun]

4. He won the pledged delegates which is the only metric which counts support.

It is winning the popular vote which is a political technicality which does not reflect actual support, because turnouts in caucuses and primaries are so vastly different due to the nature of the systems. Counting support using the popular vote pretty much throws the opinion of all the caucus states out of the picture. You need pledged delegates to make up for the differences in turnouts, and even out the discrepancies between the systems, which would otherwise favor the states with primaries, that by their very nature, produce popular votes levels of magnitude above caucuses.

Also she actually lost the popular vote.

[Aussie leftie]

9. does that sound like a simple system to you?

[KittyWampus]

10. if it was popular vote, Obama would have campaigned w/ different strategy. Is that too hard for you

to understand? Are you such a simpleton?

[Aussie leftie]

25. Are you a typical Obama supporter, or are you just plain nasty?

[Yotun]

47. It is the only meaningless system, unlike just counting the votes. That can only work if every state

holds identical elections. When elections have both primaries and caucuses, the popular vote cannot be used for anything and is a menaingless metric.


Ps- It is the popular vote argument that makes me 100% certain I do not want Hillary as the VP. However would use that argument clearly does not care for democracy, and every mention of it, only makes matters worse for her.

[AZ Criminal JD]

60. You are wrong. She has won by 70,000 votes.

Since you are saying pledged delegates are the only thing that counts then Obama is not even close to being the nominee. You need 2118 and he only has about 1800 pledged.

[ContinentalOp]

72. Learn to count

If you took the 825 superdelegates out of the picture he would only need 1705 pledged delegates to win. He still would have won.

[PseudoIntellect]

73. He has a majority of pledged delegates. That will never change.

With about 14% of the remaining supers, he also clinches a majority of superdelegates.

[Hugabear]

5. Except Hillary did not win the popular vote

That is, unless you discount the "sham caucus" states, and the states where Obama won.

[AZ Criminal JD]

22. She won the popular vote by 70,000 votes.

Thats including the estimated caucus votes and giving the entire uncommitted vote to Obama in Michigan. Sorry you lose.

[stillcool]

39. Sorry you lose.

Obama won the popular vote..and he will increase his lead tonight. He won the most delegates. He won the most states. And he is our nominee!

[AZ Criminal JD]

46. Nice to be in denial and live in alternative worlds .

I live in this one. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html. You lose. Again.

[Mass]

77. Here is the number you are quoting., from your source. Sorry you lose

Popular Vote (w/MI
Uncommitted to Obama)
estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 18,107,587 48.1% 18,045,829 47.9% Obama +61,758 +0.2%

[BuyingThyme]

6. Umm... Remember those caucuses?

[dana_b]

7. C-A-U-C-U-S-E-S!!!!

popular vote means nothing when there are caucus states!! sigh...

[Generic Brad]

49. Thank you for that! I'm one of those invisible people she overlooked

I live in a caucus state that apparently does not matter to her. She just blew off Obama's overwhelming support in my state because it did not fit her meme.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[John316]

17. Hillary' Just Hanging On to Draw More Flies--$$$$

Hillary brags about receiving 18million votes but only AIPAC counts in making her decision. Wow! What a kick inb the pants and wake up call that must be to all those who have supported her. Here's the real skinny. She's staying in the receive more donations so that she can remove her own $5million from the pot. SUCKERS!

[Aussie leftie]

31. Do you realise that Barack Obama supported Joe Lieberman

against Ned Lamont in 2006

[Crunchy Frog]

57. The both supported him in the primaries. They both supported Lamont in the general.

Lamont endorsed Obama in the primaries.

[Arrowhead2k1]

11. For the last friggin time,

The popular vote IS NOT a metric for nominating presidents, and there are damn good reasons for it. Caucuses, time between contests, voter turn out, etc...

Not to mention, there are no single reliable numbers to even go by right now. We've had two contests get fucked up by breaking the rules, and caucuses represent an entirely different can of worms.

[rhett o rick]

12. Yes but she DIDN'T win the popular vote. Read my lips, SHE DIDN'T WIN THE POPULAR VOTE.

And another thing. Clinton started out with a huge lead in super-duper-delegates but as Obama proved he was the grassroots candidate more and more undecided super delegates choose him. Clinton was the corporations candidate while Obama got his money from grassroots people.

And need I remind you once again that Sen Clinton supported the George Bush illegal invasion of Iraq that has cost over a million lives. Did you forget that? She agreed with Bush when he want to go to war in Iraq, and she has agreed with Bush on a number of other issues.
She isn't the peoples choice.

[apocalypsehow]

13. Weep us up some big 'ole vinegary tears....

:nopity:

[K Gardner]

14. Study up.. read.. know facts before you post, please.

[Aussie leftie]

48. Thankyou for that advice, OLD wise one

[greguganus]

69. What I want to know is...

is Foster's really Australian for beer?

[SOS]

15. "God help the next female that dares to consider being president."

Clinton voted to authorize the war.
If she had not done that, she would have been the nominee in February.
She lost because of the IWR vote, not because she's a woman.

[rhett o rick]

18. Obama leads in pledged delegates, he leads in pledged super delegates and

he leads in popular votes. Are you even starting to get it?? Or are you a republican.

[dsomuah]

19. She didn't win the popular vote.

Your saying it over and over doesn't make it so.

[AZ Criminal JD]

24. She won by 70,000 votes.

Thats including the estimated caucus votes and giving the entire uncommitted vote to Obama in Michigan. Sorry you lose. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

[Hugabear]

32. Psssst...you might want to read the fine print

The estimate from these four Caucus states where there are not official popular vote numbers increases Senator Obama’s popular vote margin by 110,224. This number would be about 50,000 less if the Washington primary results from February 19th were used instead of the Washington Caucus results.)

[AZ Criminal JD]

38. Psssst...I have read the fine print.

I am going by their official count. If you used the fine print number she still would be ahead by 10,000 votes. That is including the number of uncommitted from Michigan which should not be used because those people did not vote for Obama. A lot of them may have wanted to but Obama was politically stupid and took his name off the ballot. Now he has to pay the price. You lose again.

[rhett o rick]

59. "Sorry you lose", how childish. I won't have lost unless McCain wins.

At best the popular vote by your link was close. Depends on how you slice it. In some scenarios Clinton wins and in some Obama wins. But it doesn't matter. The system we us counts delegates. Obama has more pledged delegates w/o super-delegates.

[rhett o rick]

20. Obama leads in pledged delegates, he leads in pledged super delegates and

he leads in popular votes. Are you even starting to get it?? Or are you a republican.

[rhett o rick]

21. Self delete, duplicate..

[rhett o rick]

23. Self delete, duplicate. nm

i said nm

[MonkeyFunk]

26. And Clinton leads in democrats who voted for her

Or are you a republican?

[Hugabear]

33. Prove it.

This claim has been repeatedly made throughout the entire primary process without one iota of evidence. Primary ballots do NOT show who cast the ballots, therefore it's impossible to tell exactly who voted for whom. You want us to believe that every GOP crossover voted for Obama?

[MarjorieG]

27. What a delusional crock. I wish TV would stop posting the popular vote.

Pledged delegates represent votes won-as a simple metric that represents won at caucuses and primaries. Delegates represent won votes. Both needed superdelgates to get to the end.

Clinton had name brand, later in states she was supposed to win, helped by the Dem machine apparatus.

Yes, why did Clinton continue on something these weeks, tearing down the presumptive nominee, spending all those millions.

The popular vote does not include the caucuses-and includes Michigan - which vote was not used to seat the delegates at 50% because the state legislature called it illegal.

[sandnsea]

28. Hillary is lying about the so-called popular vote

and our money-grubbing media is helping her. There is no popular vote. When you arrive at a caucus, your candidate might not be viable so you might leave or vote for someone else. Therefore, by that measure alone, there cannot be a popular vote. It's a big fat clinton lie.

[AZ Criminal JD]

42. Obama bragged in February he was ahead in the popular vote.

So did his supporters on DU. Now he is quiet as a church mouse and his supporters say it is all a lie. No lie. She won the most votes.

[Orangepeel]

29. Obama won on DELEGATES, which is the way the nomination is decided

he won the majority of elected delegates, as well as the majority of superdelegates. "Popular vote" isn't a meaningful measure. It can't be calculated accurately because different states do things differently -- some caucuses, some open primaries, some closed primaries. In THIS election, it really can't be calculated because two states screwed up the timing and in one, only one was on the ballot.

If the nomination were decided on popular vote, the campaigns would have been run differently. For example, Obama would have spent much, much more time in California and New York and much less in smaller states.

[MonkeyFunk]

30. Yes

he won on pledged delegates AND superdelegates, who chose to pick him, over the will of democratic voters.

[dana_b]

35. BS!!

let's just forget that he wsn't on the ballot in MI, let's just forget all the caucus states. There is no way to accurately count the "will" of the people with those factors and you know it.

baaaa... you know what? fuck it. Fine, she won the popular vote. She won the "will" of the voters. You're right. sure, whateva.



but you know what??? He's the nominee!!! :bounce: :bounce: :party: :party: :evilgrin:

[stillcool]

41. and he won the popular vote!!!

and the most states, and the most delegates, and the most super delegates, and he is our Democratic Party Nominee!

[Orangepeel]

43. again, the majority of elected delegates

If she had won the majority of pledged delegates, more superdelegates would have endorsed her. The primary proof that his campaign was better than hers is that he was actually aiming for the appropriate goal.

:shrug:

[hendo]

44. Only one question matters

do you support him for playing by the rules of the party and winning, or not?

[hendo]

45. Only one question matters

do you support him for playing by the rules of the party and winning, or not?

[Hippo_Tron]

34. Delegates = will of the people, not popular vote

I agree that it's an absurd rule. Next time we should have a national primary and the winner of the popular vote is the nominee. Also they should all have the same amount of money (but that's another story).

However, that is not the system we have in place now. You can't change the rules mid-game.

[Aussie leftie]

52. Thankyou for your sensible reply.

I do think that a lot of people who have replied to my post, haven't taken their medication yet.

[eridani]

75. National primary is equivalent to eliminatinb popular participation entirely

You might just as well look at the FEC filings and award delegates according to who has the most money.

[NeedleCast]

36. THERE IS NO POPULAR VOTE

For fucks sake, there is no such thing as the popular vote. The caucus states don't even report their vote totals. Texas doesn't report the caucus half of it's primary. Popular vote is not counted. That's why we have delegates.

[moc]

40. Thank you.

:banghead:

[AZ Criminal JD]

58. So you would be in favor of not counting the popular vote in November?

The states would just report who they are giving their electoral votes to. Who cares what the popular vote is since it does not count?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

61. Are there caucuses in the GE?

[eridani]

76. A primary is candidate selection. The actual election is the general election

Only 19 states even had primaries in 1968.

[Gore1FL]

37. he won the popular vote that counts

which is directly represented by the delegates.

To argue otherwise is to not understand how the nomination proceess works.

[bridgit]

50. Which is why I'm not in favor of the electoral college, super delegates, or super majorities...

If Democracy is so flawed a concept it must be placed on life support it may be time for process review

[mopinko]

51. it is not a popularity contest. it is about party. that means something.

it is not a simple referendum because it is about a set of ideals, a set of principles, a history. activist, elected officials and elder statesmen NEED TO BE A PART OF THE PROCESS.
this process, clumsy though it may be, is a big improvement on the smoke filled room. but a simple popularity contest is not the point.

[Beregond2]

55. Which she didn't, no matter how many times she says it.

[grassfed]

56. I heard the universities in Oz were deficient but this is absurd

http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v001/democratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/pdfs/20060119_charter.pdf

[Tresalisa]

62. The popular vote argument is moot in the primaries

because of the way we Democrats run our primary. Flawed system, maybe, but it's the way we do it. Our presumptive nominee adopted a very astute strategy to garner delegates according to our Democratic primary system. Senator Clinton - not so much. Her campaign thought she'd be our nominee after the Feb. 5th primaries, and did not have a good plan for the long haul.

Don't mistake me for an anti-Hillaryite, my candidate was Kucinich, and I was quite disappointed when he dropped out. I would happily have voted for either Obama or Clinton.

[krkaufman]

63. Hillary's loss has nothing to do with her gender

Unless her gender can somehow be linked to her vote on Iraq, her Senatorial career being one of perpetual centrist positioning for a Presidential run, and her running her Presidential campaign as though she was inevitable and failing to plan beyond February 5th.

[OnionPatch]

64. Can you say "Caucus"?

I'm sorry, but Hillary did not win the "popular vote" because when she says she did, she is not counting the caucuses. Are those people who participated in caucuses meaningless? Maybe someone should have told them they didn't count before they went to the trouble to participate.

Yes, your post is upsetting, because you are willing to disenfranchise those people in the many caucus states who followed the PRESET, AGREED-UPON rules to choose their candidate and then you try to blame it on people being sexist?

Give me a break.

[smiley_glad_hands]

65. She never won the popular vote. eom

[ShortnFiery]

66. Yes, after these final two races, unless you count the illegitimate MI primary, HRC is NOT

ahead in the popular vote - Obama wins on *all metrics.*

[smiley_glad_hands]

70. That doesn't even include the caucuses. eom

[billyoc]

67. No, you've got that backwards, mate. She's broken the barrier for women running for President here

once and for all. There'll be no more talk of "Is America ready?", she took it down to the wire, but you only get one winner every four years. :hi:

[Hamlette]

68. You are right. If she had won the popular vote, we'd need to change the system. She didn't.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. Yes, praising McCain was the act of a woman with great class!

Then there was that sniper fire lie. More class!!

:sarcasm:

[GreenTea]

74. That last gasp, that Hillary won the popular vote....

after Montana tonight it'll be a virtual tie with the popular vote, BUT...

Hillary's claim (and totals) are debatable, because it counts votes in the disputed Michigan primary and does not count votes in four states that held caucuses won by Obama.

No doubt Obama wins the popular vote as well as the delegate count.

Obama is the clear winner!

[baldguy]

78. She didn't win the popular vote.

And the nomination isn't decided by the popular vote anyway.

[THUNDER HANDS]

79. yeah, and if they just went by shots on goal, Detriot would be Stanley Cup Champions by now

[CowJohn]

80. nm

no message at all

[VolcanoJen]

81. I smell pizza wafting through the room

Interesting conversation you're providing!

[Sancho]

82. Popular Vote totals from Real Clear Politics:

Popular Vote Total 17,535,335 48.1% 17,493,658 48.0% Obama +41,677 +0.1%
Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 17,869,419 48.2% 17,717,520 47.8% Obama +151,899 +0.4%
Popular Vote (w/MI) 17,535,335 47.4% 17,821,967 48.1% Clinton +286,632 +0.8%
Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 17,869,419 47.4% 18,045,829 47.9% Clinton +176,410 +0.5%
Popular Vote (w/MI
Uncommitted to Obama)** 17,773,503 48.0% 17,821,967 48.1% Clinton +48,464 +0.1%
Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 18,107,587 48.1% 18,045,829 47.9% Obama +61,758 +0.2%

I'm voting for the Democrat, but I have some observations.

1.) Objectively, Hillary was very competitive and likely should play a role in the coming administration.
2.) All five top Democratic candidates were good this campaign and likely all would have been effective presidents.
3.) The election is not over. The GOP could win and all this excitement won't vote. Only registered voters who show up vote, and in the last two elections the winner did not get the most votes. Without election reform, voting is a waste of time.

[TZ]

83. Look

Sometimes this happens..A la Bush winning the electoral college and Gore winning the popular vote.
Its not like there was a HUGE difference in the popular vote between them. I think it was probably about 2% or so. So I don't think the fact that the SD's made the difference is a huge thing.
Our system is flawed obviously but still works pretty well.
As for Australia..I like Kevin Rudd well enough, but I would like to know if there have been any major party Women candidates for PM? Minorities?
My understanding is that Australia suffers from quite a bit of ingrained sexism as well.

[TNOE]

84. How many votes to Limbaugh get her?

in his "Operation Chaos" - I'm guessing in the tens of thousands. Regardless - SHE LOST.