Did you Know? John McSame, the WAR Hero

[Rick Myers]

John W. McCain lost a total of 5 MILITARY AIRCRAFT during his career??? As an AF vet, I can tell you, losing 1 usually ENDS your career.

And he recieved 29 awards for performance in combat?? He racked up a total of 20 hours of combat, recieving approximately 1.5 medals per hour!!! Many men sat in the frigging jungle under combat for months at a time and didn't even get a 'welcome home' handshake!!!

He was NOT held in the Hanoi Hotel for most of his POW experience, and the NVA brought in a Soviet surgeon from Moscow to work on the Little Prince after his shoot-down!!!

War Hero or Daddy's Boy???

[Occam Bandage]

1. War hero. Attacking a man who refused to be released from a torture camp

on the merit of his war service is beneath us as Democrats. I thought we were upset at the swift boaters for dishonoring veterans and skullfucking the truth. Why do the same?

[Rick Myers]

2. He DID refuse to be released, but...

He knew he was getting special treatment, so he refused. YES, that is honorable...

BUT...

This will be the ugliest campaign of all time, and we need to be ready to strike back with EVERYTHING...

(I DO NOT mean to demean his service, simply stating facts....)

[Occam Bandage]

8. Yes. What he did was honorable. Denouncing his Vietnam service is dishonoring

everything that every tortured Vietnam POW went through, just like denouncing Kerry's was dishonoring every Purple Heart recipient. Yeah, McCain wasn't that great a pilot, and yeah, he was an Admiral's son, and so he probably got a few gimmes here and there. But that isn't what this election needs to be about. If this election is a festival of character assassination, it becomes '04 and the Republicans win. If this election is about change and about policy, it becomes '06 and the Democrats win.

[hedgehog]

23. I second your post. nt

[blm]

19. Yes and no. His time as POW shouldn't be attacked, but his glaring INCOMPETENCE

as a serviceman ended up endangering others because he had a personal immaturity and consistently showed BAD JUDGEMENT.

[Rick Myers]

31. Thank you, blm

If McCain wants to talk 'Manchurian Candidate,' HE'S THE FREAKIN' POSTER BOY!!!

[blm]

35. I've never doubted your sensibility, RM.

Or that you meant to go as far as the swifts. Hell, all we have to do is tell the truth about McCain. That should be enough.

He really was the exact OPPOSITE of Kerry as a serviceman. Kerry made solid decisions that almost always ended up SAVING lives of his crew and other servicemen in the area at the time, while McCain's poor judgment and immaturity cost the lives of his shipmates and endangered many others.

[Rick Myers]

36. As a Veteran, I would NEVER downplay anyone's service

I was just pointing out that the NVA KNEW they has a top-shelf prisoner and McCain WAS treated better than most US POWS. He was given medals by the pound because he was who he was... Same with the number of aircraft destroyed. NO ONE else would get a pass like that!!!

I guess the point is: He was born on third and thought he hit a triple... God Bless Molly Ivans!!!

[Window]

38. And look what they did to Kerry. That was so disgusting.

[The_Casual_Observer]

3. And what is your record, Mr. Keyboard Warrior?

I'm not big on McCain's policy, but I know better than to talk shit about his or anybody else's military career.

[geckosfeet]

4. How many hell holes have you spent 5+ years in?

He may not be a genius or a hero.

But he was a POW.

[Rick Myers]

9. This info was produced by VIETNAM VETS

You are attacking the messenger.

This is NOT pretty info, but it is the truth.

The fact that he DID spend 5 years as a POW should probably disqualifiy him, especially since HIS people called Obama "The Manchurian Candidate."

Christ, I DID post on DU, didn't I???

[Occam Bandage]

11. Yeah, you posted on DU. Many of us

still have some semblances of decency, some bad memories of 2004, or some vestiges of political wisdom. Hell, take your pick--having any of those would lead one to understanding why attacking a tortured POW on his service is not a winning move.

[grantcart]

17. Its also stupid politics ....we are going to win on issues

and then we are going to govern on the issues

[Rick Myers]

20. And what are you gonna ask Santa for this year?

Politics, even LOCAL politics, is full-contact. If you don't think this will be an issue during the campaign, you are a fine Democrat, but a deluded individual.

Win on issues is a great bumper sticker, but you better guild your loins for the REAL FIGHT. Do you think Karl Rove is on the sidelines in this?

I have been involved in LOCAL races (school board, country recorder) that have decended to this level, what makes you think a Presidential race can be won without playing HARDBALL?

I am just putting this oppo info out there. If we don't FIGHT WITH ALL WE HAVE, we will not survive.

The Dems could buy a funeral home and people would quit dying!!!

[hedgehog]

29. And how thinking of politics as a full contact sport working out for Hillary?

Obama is on to something; Americans are tired of the drama and ready to get working on our problems.

[Rick Myers]

30. A party primary is NOT a general election

I FULLY SUPPORT Obama, have for a long time...

I'm simply pointing out where this campaign is going to end up... Obama doesn't have to go anywhere near this issue, some Vietnam Vets will run with it regardless...

Hillary's primary run didn't even require dry cleaning, the GE will be a BLOODBATH.

[tritsofme]

24. The swift vets were all Vietnam vets too.

But that didn't make their criticism worth anything.

[Rick Myers]

28. Except for sinking Kerry's campaign, they didn't do shit...

[Arrowhead2k1]

5. I don't think it's wise to attack John McSame on his service.

It's a hopeless battle bound to backfire. He stayed in the friggin Hanoi Hilton FFS. Let's just leave it at that. There are plenty of other real issues to nail McCain on now.

[moondust]

6. Doesn't that add up to

invaluable leadership experience? Doesn't serving prison time qualify a person to be Commander in Chief? Hillary thinks so.

[SoonerPride]

7. His military career is shady. His advancement was not due to merit.

That is a fact.

I honor his service, but people in the military have misgivings about the man and that is an honest topic for discussion. His career rise was due to family ties and not job performance. (sound familiar? reminds me of * )

Just because he served does not make him impervious to criticism.

But since he is so vulnerable on 100,000 other fronts, it is best to simply make his service a non-issue and say thanks for your service 50 years ago, which only reminds people that he is a doddering old fool.

[Jersey Devil]

10. Obama ain't going there and neither should we

He was a POW. Period. Respect it.

[Raine]

12. Leave the destruction of veterans to the reTHUGS

the Democratic Party shouldn't become like those who ridiculed Kerry with purple bandages. Plus what they did to Max Cleland.

[Rick Myers]

14. Tell me that in October, when Dubya has bombed Iran

And McCain is LEADING...

We MUST WIN!

[Rick Myers]

13. A segment from a document written by USVET in 1992

On his 23rd mission in Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, he was shot down by a surface-to-air missile.

To relate the event, McCain later recalled that he was "flying right over the heart of Hanoi in a dive at about 4,500 feet, when a Russian missile the size of a telephone pole came up--the sky was full of them--and blew the right wing off my Skyhawk dive bomber. It went into an inverted, almost straight-down spin.

"I pulled the ejection handle, and was knocked unconscious by the force of of the ejection--the air speed was about 500 knots. I didn't realize it at the moment, but I had broken my right leg around the knee, my right arm in three places and my left arm. I regained consciousness just before I landed by parachute in a lake right in the center of Hanoi, one they called the Western Lake. My helmet and my oxygen mask had been blown off. "I hit the water and sank to the bottom . . . I did not feel any pain at the time, and I was able to rise to the surface. I took a breath of air and started sinking again."After bobbing up and down, he was eventually pulled from the water by Vietnamese who had swam out to get him.

A mob gathered on shore and McCain was bayoneted in the foot and his shoulder was smashed with a rifle butt. He was put on a truck and taken to Hanoi's main prison.

After being periodically slapped around for "three or four days" by his captors who wanted military information from him, which McCain claims he refused to give, providing only his name, rank and serial number, he realized he was in critical shape and called for an officer. He told the officer, "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital."

Regardless of the reasons, the offer to give "military information" in exchange for better treatment was a violation of the military Code of Conduct and Collaboration No. l.

The doctor, according to McCain, said about taking him to the hospital, "It's too late."

At that point, McCain knew he was in big trouble. According to information obtained by the U.S. VETERAN, the flier in desperation invoked the name of his famous father, Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., the soon-to-be commander of all U.S. Forces in the Pacific.

And that was a violation of the Code of Conduct and Collaboration No. 2.

McCain admits that because of the Vietnamese having the knowledge of who his father was, he thus survived because they rushed him to the hospital. The Vietnamese figured that because POW McCain's father was of such high military rank that he was of royalty or the governing circle. Thereafter the communist bragged that they had captured "the crown prince."

Later, the Vietnamese would erect a monument in Hanoi near the site of his landing in the lake, stone figure of a pilot raising his arms skyward in surrender and referring to their catch McCain, by name, as an "air pirate."

At the hospital his wounds were treated. He readily admits that other U.S. prisoners with similar wounds were left to die, pointing out "There were hardly any amputees among the prisoners who came back because the North Vietnamese just would not give medical treatment to someone who was badly injured. They weren't going to waste their time.

"McCain has failed to mention in public what he has confided to another U.S. prisoner privately, that since the Vietnamese felt they had in their hands such a "special prisoner", a propaganda bonanza, a Soviet surgeon was called in to treat him.

HOW MUCH MORE INFORMATION DID HE GIVE?

McCain has admitted that the Vietnamese repeatedly threatened to withhold much needed operations unless he would give them more information. Did he provide it?

After six weeks of this type of threats and medical treatment, he was delivered to Room No. 11 of "The Plantation" and into the hands of two other POWs, who helped further nurse him along until he was eventually able to walk by himself.

For the next 22 months, McCain was kept isolated from the other American prisoners. Because the Vietnamese considered him a "special prisoner" he was the target of intense indoctrination programs. His communist interrogators believed that because McCain came from a "royal family," he would, when finally released, return to the United States to some important military or government job.

The communist were very much aware that POW McCain would be under great psychological pressure not to do or say anything that would tarnish his famous military family and they considered that to be the key to eventually breaking and then "turning" him.

During that period of time McCain was visited by several foreign delegations (including Cubans) and interviewed by many high ranking North Vietnamese leaders including Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, North Vietnam's Minster of Defense and national hero . . .

On Dec. 7, 1969, McCain was moved out of "The Plantation" and into the "Hanoi Hilton" with other prisoners of war.

McCain was released as a prisoner of war on March 15, 1973.


**********************************************

[panader0]

15. 2nd to last in his class at Annapolis

While I believe it would be politically unwise for Obama to do anything but respect mccain's military history, I don't think of him as a "hero." I predict, as the OP did, that somewhere in the GE, this will become an issue. Of course, the GOP will respond that Obama has NO military history, is probably a Muslim, and in fact is a traitor.

[Canuckistanian]

16. Don't go this route

Just... don't.

[Rick Myers]

18. I've never seen a local election that wasn't dirty, let alone the Presidency...

The shit is gonna fly. And it's fine to say 'let's all play nice,' but its NOT reality.

[dems_rightnow]

21. That shit won't fly

Attacking John McCain is his military record is an insane proposition that's guaranteed to backfire.

[Rick Myers]

27. I'm not suggesting Obama stand up and say ANYTHING

The campaign is won or lost in the trenches. These issues WILL come up. They are FACTS. They do not demean his service, but they do cast doubt on his mental abilities, especially factoring in his advanced age.

[tritsofme]

22. This line of criticism is a great way to loose the election.

Whatever the truth is, John McCain is a war hero in the popular imagination of the country.

Obama, with no military experience to fall back on, would be a fool to go down this road.

[Rick Myers]

25. McCain's campaign has ALREADY tried to say Obama is The Manchurian Candidate

Claiming he's a stealth Muslim.

Politics is war.

No one is saying to have Obama say this on National TV, but in a campaign, it's won or lost in the trenches.

[Arkansas Granny]

26. We should not go there. After what the RW did to John Kerry and Max Cleland

over their honorable military service, we should not do anything similar to attack his service record. I don't agree with McCain on policy, but I will defend his service.

[FredScuttle]

32. Attacking a POW is the lowest form of discourse...you should be ashamed of yourself

The only thing Democrats should be saying about McCain's time in Vietnam is that it proves two things:

1) Torture doesn't work
2) Torture is immoral

[Rick Myers]

33. I think McCain's words and positions pretty much dismiss 'torture'

He apparently thinks it ok, as long as WE do it...

[Rick Myers]

34. OKAY!!! Thank you...

I'll never cast aspersions on McCain's military service here at DU.

But someone's gonna do it.

Everything will be goodness and light...

But, Christ Almighty, the guy lost 4 freakin' fighters BEFORE he got shot down. Shouldn't that say SOMETHING about SOMEONE???

[Orsino]

37. His war record is irrelevant.

His political career, on the other hand, spans decades he spent betraying Americans in uniform and out. All the ammo you could want for a political battle is right there, in his voting record.

[RT Atlanta]

39. His dad & granddad were Admirals

Is there anything else you need to know beyond that fact?

Seriously, this guy was the 5th from the BOTTOM in his class at the Naval Academy. The bottom 5 guys do not get flight assignments... unless dad & granddad were admirals.

[catnhatnh]

40. And you count the aircraft he sat in...

that received a missile fired crossdeck from him which blew his plane up in the Forrestal tragedy?? And then the plane he was in when shot down and captured??? You Sir, are a moran.

[emilyg]

41. He is a War Hero.

[Piperay]

42. This kind of thing will backfire if used

by our side, the reTHUGS can get away with it but the Democrats cannot.