DU women, what are you opinions on Hillary's claims of independence?

[TLM]

Over and over and over I hear, as justification for supporting Hillary, that she is an amazing strong woman who has accomplished so much, garnered so much respect, and is such a competent independent leader.

Yet these claims seem to be overlooking the glaring fact that everything Hillary has accomplished has been from her position firmly attached to her husband's coattails.

Were she not married to a former president and governor, where would she be in this process? Would she have ever made it into the senate or any elected office for that matter? She often tried to present policies and accomplishments under the Clinton presidency, as examples of her own experience and her own qualifications.

Now there's no denying she's riding on bill's coattails, and funding her campaign with money he made from speaking fees and book deals.... to the tune of about 20 million so far. These are not accomplishments she achieved herself as a strong independent women.

So what I wonder is how the women Hillary claims to speak for and represent feel about this. I know many women who are self-made... who got where they are in life not by being handed things by their husband, but though their own hard work and struggle. I think they are far more impressive and inspiring than Hillary.

Does Hillary parading around as a strong self-made super woman, not demean the women who work so hard to overcome real adversity and do so without the help of a millionaire former president husband clearing a path to political success, paving it, and lining it with rose pedals for them? Hillary has been handed everything her whole life... so much so that now when she's finally faced with the prospect of not having the nomination handed to her, she sees it as sexist discrimination.

I don't understand how a single mother raising kids on a working class salary, can see Hillary's pompous facade as anything other than a huge insult. Or how any women who worked hard to make their own way in life can see Hillary atop Bill's shoulders claiming she's 12 feet tall, as anything but an insult.

What do you think? Do you think hillary is celebrating these hard working women... or simply using them as a prop and a ploy in her quest to have yet more power simply handed to her?

[Diane R]

1. She has everyone tip-toeing around, trying not to hurt her feelings. She's an embarrassment to wome

[TLM]

6. I agree... that's kind of an aside to my question, but...

I too am offended by the double standard of Hillary hiding behind her gender, while at the same time attempting to claim her gender isn't an issue.

Out one side of her face she says, Vote for me because I'm a woman and seeing a woman in the white house will inspire the young girls of the nation. Then out the other side she says her gender should be irrelevant, and anybody who questions her claims is sexist.

[roguevalley]

138. if she had to do all of this herself, she would not be a senator from

a state as expensive and difficult to win in as New York. She would not have a half a billion dollars handed to her to run for president. she springboarded off her husband's career. She might be a lawyer in a firm with a state post in politics some place but not what she has. and I agree. her conduct has embarrassed us all.

[elleng]

2. Your 'glaring fact'

is HIGHLY insulting.

As I understand it, she hasn't been handed anything; she's worked for everything, including keeping her marriage together when so many would have refused to do so.

Give credit where credit is due, please, and study the facts.

[Duke Newcombe]

5. Which candidate claims they're a "two-for-one" deal?

Hint: obliterate.


Duke

[ampad]

9. "keeping her marriage together"

Your idea of her keeping her marriage together which in turns makes her strong is entirely your opinion. Some people might say she kept her marriage together for political gain. Some might say that her staying with a cheating, lying, snake that humiliated her in front of the world makes her a weak woman. That is my opinion.

[elleng]

11. Everyone has opinions on others' family matters;

we all interpret in our own ways, and attribute 'intent' differently. Read something about her mother's life, for an interesting pov.

[ampad]

15. Hmmm.... is this in one of her books?

Did her father not treat her mother with the respect she deserved. I'm just wondering because I have never heard that about her family. If so this explains quite a bit.

[TLM]

27. I beleive her father was very abusive towards her and her mother....

I'm not sure on the particular details of the nature of the abuse... if it was physical or emotional etc.

However, she did have a rough go of things at an early age.

[elleng]

28. I recall reading

that her mother had a very difficult early life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Howell_Rodham

[emilyg]

56. I did it for my child's sake.

Till you walk in someones shes - don't judge.

[TLM]

69. Soemhow i think living in a sham marriage is worse than living in a single parent home...

My parents divorced when I was young. I'd hate to think what life would have been like in a home with parents locked into a loveless sham of a marriage, maintained for the sake of appearances. Living a lie because they believed the lie is more palatable than the truth.

What's worse, Chelsea growing up thinking dad is a hound who cheats on mommy and mommy puts up with it... or growing up think mom had enough respect for herself to leave his cheating ass?

Which image of women is better for a young girl to see in her mother?

[emilyg]

74. At the time my daughter was 3 weeks old.

I did get divorced.

[TLM]

83. I thought to meant that you kept your marriage together for your child's sake...

hard to determine from one-liner posts... however it seemed you were saying that you did not get divorced for the sake of the child.


Personally I find that issue to be one with no good answer. Trying to keep a bad marriage together is like waiting for spoiled milk to taste better. But introducing more instability into a child life at a young age can cause problems too.

[EFerrari]

90. The thing is, you're assuming the terms of that contract.

A marriage is what two people agree to. We don't know what the agreements were/are. We only know how it was spun in public.

[eridani]

98. Indeed. The very term "cheating" doesn't mean anything unless you know the agreements

Plenty of couples manage non-monogamy successfully.

Some common rules are 1) Not in our bed (or our house, or our zip code, or maybe even our state), 2) Don't bring anything home or leave anything behind (bacteria, viruses, fertilized eggs), 3) Don't make an ass out of yourself.

Looks like Bill screwed up on 3), though.

[NashVegas]

126. delete

[TLM]

10. Any real self respecting women who have divorced a husband who cheated on her...

not just once, but REPEATEDLY.

She stayed with Bill for ONE reason, and were watching it unfold right now. She wanted to be president and knew that divorcing Bill would make that impossible. She knew she was neither competent nor capable of doing it without the clout and influence that comes with being married to the former president.

"As I understand it, she hasn't been handed anything;"

LOL!!!! Really? Never handed anything? So if she were married to a city councilman, she's still be running for president?

"Give credit where credit is due, please, and study the facts."

What facts? Please cite the facts that show Hillary has ever accomplished anything in politics without Bill?

[elleng]

21. Ah, 'ever accomplished anything in politics,' is it?

The premise changes. You want to believe the worst about her, do so. But maybe you'd like to study her work in the Senate.

Please don't think your decision not to support her is in fact based on the merits, that is, on her ability to understand the matters a president faces, to make decisions in the public interest, and to encourage the u.s. and others to agree with her.

[TLM]

32. There's no change in premise.... that she's had her entire career handed to her.

And are you talking about the senate seat she got running as the former first lady, after her husband left the whitehouse?


How exactly did she do that on her own?

[elleng]

36. Her ROLE

IN the senate.

And you might have noticed that she spent most of her senate campaign studying nystate and introducing herself to the electorate.

[TLM]

40. Her role in the senate... as the former first lady.

Are you seriously trying to claim that Hillary being elected to the senate wasn;t a direct result of her husband?

Where did bill put his offices again?

"introducing herself to the electorate."

Yeah because nobody knew who hillary f-ing Clinton was.


She coasted in on name recognition alone.

Did Bill campaign for her in NY?

[elleng]

46. TLM, I'm surprised

that you're so uninformed about her effort to be elected to the senate. As I observed it, she worked very hard THROUGHOUT NY STATE.

His office is in Harlem, by the way, thats in the CITY of New York; MANY up-staters resent The City.

She introduced herself as their future Senator, NOT as a first lady; those roles are rather different, don'tcha think?

[TLM]

51. Really so in her run she never once mentioned being the former first lady?

She didn't get any name recognition boost?

She never had Bill campaign for her?

You said there were all these facts about what she accomplished without Bill and his coattails... still waiting for those.

[elleng]

61. FYI

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=55463

[TLM]

64. Her votes in the senate, like supporting Bush's war in Iraq...

are not examples of her political accomplishments without Bill, as she only got into the senate because of Bill.

[stillcool]

52. She could not possibly have

won that Senate seat if she had not been the former first lady. Do you think a no-name could move to New York one year and get elected to the Senate the next? I believe the only reason they moved to New York was to use that Senate Seat to launch her Presidential campaign. What you are talking about that New Yorkers from Upstate resent the city?

[dansolo]

110. She worked hard to push aside the woman who was planning on running

If Hillary wasn't who she was, she wouldn't have even been running for the senate seat in NY. She pushed aside another woman, Nita Lowey, in order to run. The reason for this was because of Clinton's status as the former first lady, which the NY Democrats felt was needed to go up against Rudy Giuliani. The only reason she was even considered was because she was Bill's wife.

[Kahuna]

118. Face it. Her foot would not have gotten through the door had the NY

Democratic party been behind her. And just why were they behind her? Be honest now.

[SwampG8r]

116. "studying nystate and introducing herself to the electorate."

says it all doesnt it?
she "studied" NY as she was running for its senate seat
introducing herself to the NY electorate?
most folks running for a senate seat are known by the electorate
unless they hand picked a state to grab a senate seat in for future electoral gain
i always wondered why the senate seats of arkansas werent good enough for her
but that electorate wouldnt need to be "introduced " to her now would they?

[NashVegas]

134. I Was Reared in Upstate NY

Jacob Javits never visited my town or surrounding area. 1957 - 1981
Al D'Amato never visited my town or surrounding area. 1981 - 1999
Kenneth Keating never visited my town or surrounding area. 1959 - 1965
RFK did - he was another "carpetbagger."
Charles Goodell never visited my town or surrounding area. 1968 - 1971
Daniel Patrick Moynihan never visited my town or surrounding area. 1977 - 2001
Hillary Clinton visited my hometown once, and surrounding towns at least twice.

Most of these cats never set foot anywhere north, east or west of Albany excepting Syracuse and Buffalo. They took it for granted that the large cities would have all the donor money and votes they needed.

Isn't it interesting that the only other NY senator who did was the Kennedy of Massachusetts. You know ... the kid who rode his brother's coattails.

[whistler162]

139. RFK wasn't a carpetbagger!

Do some research before spouting drivel!

[NashVegas]

143. May As Well Have Been

He spent far more time living outside of the state than he ever did in it.

[Girlieman]

127. maybe you'd like to study her work in the Senate.

One little-mentioned split occurred on a proposal to restrict Pentagon spending on cluster bombs, which explode and scatter thousands of tiny weapons over a vast area. Those small bombs are prone to going off years after a battle, sometimes killing and maiming Middle Eastern children who mistakenly trigger them. Israel came under fire from the UN and international human rights groups for its use of cluster bombs during its 2006 war with Hizbullah forces in Lebanon. In the autumn of that year, with memories of the conflict still fresh, several Democrats sought to limit US defence spending to cluster bombs that would not be used in civilian areas.

While they praised the moral case for shielding civilians from combat weapons, opponents argued that curbing spending on cluster bombs would tie the hands of US military leaders.

"In an extreme situation, the commander must be able to use all options to shape the battlefield to protect our forces and those allied with us," Republican senator Ted Stevens said at the time.

"Restricting the deployment of cluster munitions could severely hinder aviation and artillery capabilities and reduce the commander's capability to wage war successfully," he added.

Obama voted in favour of limiting use of the bombs, while Clinton and 69 other senators opposed the spending limits, defeating the proposal.

http://www.clearpathinternational.org/cpiblog/archives/000963.php

[Barack_America]

25. Bullshit.

Only she knows why she stayed.

Chelsea, ambition, or just plain loving the man. You don't know what her reasons were.

[elleng]

31. Right-o,

Kristi.

[TLM]

35. Regardless...no self respecting woman would stay with a man who cheated.

Would you stay married to a spouse who repeatedly cheated on you?


"Chelsea, ambition, or just plain loving the man. You don't know what her reasons were."

Her reasons are obvious. She would not be where she is today without Bill. To leave him would mean leaving her career.

[Barack_America]

45. Bullshit again.

Try walking in those shoes before declaring how they fit.

Bill's infidelity is his problem, not hers. Her reasons for staying in the marriage are her own, but if I had to take a guess, I'd say Chelsea. I'm about Chelsea's age and my parents were divorced. Single mothers weren't nearly as common then. The support systems weren't there and my mother struggled both financially and socially. I've no doubt this had a profound effect on her decision whether or not to divorce my father.

[TLM]

55. Well I have been cheated on by a girlfriend...

and when I found out I dumped her immediately. Because I can't be with someone I can't trust.

But then my career wasn't dependent on riding her coattails... so not exactly the same situation.


As for chelsea, she's an adult and has been for some time. So if hillary was staying with Bill for the kid's sake, that reason is LONG gone.

[emilyg]

60. A girlfriend - oh no!!

A little different from a spouse.

[TLM]

70. Only in that I don't have to pay alimony...

for having the self respect not to sit by and be cheated on and lied to.

[beac]

95. Horse puckey.

It's not like Hillary would have been a struggling single mother barely scraping by to feed her daughter.

[Barack_America]

120. My personal experiences are "horse puckey"?

People with Ivy League degrees can't fall on hard times? Glad to know that once I graduate I'm officially set for life.

But I wasn't just talking about the financial aspects. I was talking about the social isolation that women of divorce used to be faced with. Just try and think of back when divorce was still relatively taboo. Which sex do you think usually received criticism for a "failed" marriage?

I can tell you, because I lived it. My mother was looked down upon for being a single mother. She actually earned more money than most men in our town (because she didn't work in the GM plants like everybody else). So there was suspicion and resentment towards her that I know she worried about being passed along to me. Which I'm sure it was (I vaguely remember certain commments by teachers, other parents, etc.). Not to mention that she was lonely as hell. Those men certainly didn't want their wives getting any ideas from her.

Would I blame Hillary for staying with Bill to spare Chelsea what I described above? Absolutely not. Particularly if he was a good father to Chelsea, even though he was a shitty husband to her.

Life is complex.

[beac]

136. I wasn't talking about you and I'm sorry if you got that impression.

I was specifically refering to Hillary and the fact that she would not have struggled financially and wouldn't have been a "single mother" since presumably Bill would have shared custody.

[elleng]

128. And Kristi,

I've thought some more about this. (What dopey things to waste our time with, eh?)

Is SEX really the most important thing about a relationship, such that it should force it to end? How much time do most people/couples spend at it?

My relationships are founded on common interests and values; spend most of our time discussing matters of interest. This has surely been the case for h and b, I think.

[Barack_America]

147. It's a very Christian-centric view of marriage...

That sex (and reproduction) is the reason for marriage and, thus, the most important aspect of marriage. This also elevates the importance of fidelity in a marriage.

But as marriages become more about partnership and less about permission to have sex, the role of sex in defining a marriage becomes blurrier.

That's how I see it anyway.

[emilyg]

58. I'm glad you have a perfect life. Don't judge others.

Bill would not have been President without Hillary.

[TLM]

72. .Where in my post did i mention having a perfect life?

Do you always resort to personal comments when you're lacking a suitable argument to support your position?


He would not have been president without having a wife but it didn't have to be Hillary.

Just look at the stepford wife puppet in the whitehouse now... she could almost be a cardboard cutout and still have the same effect.

[tigervalentine]

79. And Bill wouldn't have been president without

Ross Perot.

[unapatriciated]

137. Yes, I may have lost my "self respect" but...

I kept a roof over my children's head and medical insurance for a very ill child. Your statement tells me you know little about battered women or the reasons they stay. I could afford to lose my "self respect" if it meant my child received life saving medical treatment. This is a straw man's argument and has nothing to do with hers or any other women's self respect it's called survival.


btw I voted for Edwards and now support and will vote for Obama



edited to add this thought.....what do you think would have happened to the struggling democratic party if she had added divorce to the mix during his impeachment hearings?

[emilyg]

57. Exactly.

[Milo_Bloom]

99. She stayed for politics.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is only fooling themselves.

[Barack_America]

121. Anyone who thinks that life is that simple...

Is probably in for a shock.

Here's my perspective:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6190122&mesg_id=6192081

[Milo_Bloom]

133. It is that simple.

[DJ13]

29. She wanted to be president and knew that divorcing Bill would make that impossible.

I actually think that was one of her biggest tactical mistakes.

She voted for the IWR to prove how tough she was, but divorcing a sitting President and striking out on her own would have shown she was really tough.

I bet she would have still won her Senate seat in NY with no trouble, and the spector of Bill hanging around a Hillary WH wouldnt have been a worry (which bothered a good many potential voters).

I know my wife wants a female President in the worst way, but because Hillary stayed with Bill she refused to consider her a viable candidate.

[TLM]

44. That's hard to say.... she would have looked strong...

but she would have lost a lot of Bill's connections and his clout.

Plus that's really a lose lose proposition, because her opponent could have attacked her on family values and running from problems etc.

However in NY, she might have still been able to get elected to the senate... but no chance running for president.

[texastoast]

42. You sound just like the Republican judge I worked with

during the primary election (might I add the very inept Republican judge). We had this very conversation about Hillary.

This is what the Republicans believe.

I don't agree that she would be incompetent by any means. She is a wonderfully strong woman on her own right, and I wouldn't hesitate to vote for her, but as a second choice at this point. The problem is for me, she is not as electable as Obama due to what you state and the fact that, ironically, a bunch of the pukes are actually mad at her for not divorcing Bill (Thou shalt not commit adultery be damned). She will mobilze the pukes.

[TLM]

49. How is she anything but incompetent?

She can't beat a guy she says has no experience, no policies, and has nothing but a speech?

That sounds pretty damn incompetent to me.

She's crashed her campaign into a 20 million dollar hole, again incompetence.

She never planed for anything after super Tuesday... incompetence and arrogance.

And I'm not mad at her for not divorcing Bill... I'm simply saying her not doing so was a tactical decision. Yet another robotic calculation and triangulation.

Personally I suspect they've had an agreement for sometime regarding Bill's nookie on the side. But were that the case and were they to admit it, that would also be political suicide. I really don't care what their real sexual agreement situation is, however the situation they present to the public doesn't wash with the image she's trying to project. That being the image of hillary as the strong independent woman, who remains with the man who cheats on her over and over again.

[JerseygirlCT]

149. Look, I think he behaved horribly, too

*I* was pissed, so I can only imagine how angry she probably was.

But the fact is that their marriage, and the decisions made between the two of them about it, is personal. Only the two involved can have any good understanding of it, and of the choices they made together. Speculating on it, or judging her for her choice just doesn't sit right with me.

Plenty of other bad choices that didn't and don't affect just her and Bill. Let's look at those and debate them!

[madeline_con]

48. So, you think she did the right thing by not dumping Bill?

If I had been humiliated and embarrassed that way, I would have moved out of the WH.

If she's so friggin' independent, she could have become a single mom when the Lewinsky story broke!

[elleng]

50. I think

its NONE OF MY BUSINESS what she does about her marriage.

Its clear that you don't understand all the matters at issue when hard times come to marriages; so much the better for you!

[madeline_con]

54. I know one thing...

if I were married to the Prez and had to go through all that, I'd be gone.

I've left two losers, it's not so hard!

[emilyg]

62. You don't know what you would do

till faced with the situation.

[dansolo]

108. How is she keeping her family together when Bill still has women on the side?

If she and Bill want to have an open relationship, then that is fine. But then she can't try and have him play the part of dutiful spouse when we all know that it is a sham.

[CatsDogsBabies]

115. Yes she works hard, but there is no doubt that she is

where she is (at least in part) because her husband was president

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

129. She is an independent woman and a feminist because she stands behind a man

who cheats and lies on her. She is strong and independent because she ran her campaign bolstered by her own merits rather than her husband's record. She is a fearless feminist who, rather than resorting to claims of sexism and misogyny, she realizes that she is losing this race because she ran a lousy campaign, overestimated the political prowess of her opponent, and ran her bank account into the ground.

Yes, Hillary Clinton is a strong, independent woman and should be a role model for my daughters and young women all over the world! :sarcasm::sarcasm:

[ruby slippers]

3. Independent? She looks more like a spoiled brat to me....

[union_maid]

4. Well, I think it's a mixed bag

She did meet Bill at Yale Law School. That was no small accomplishment for a woman at the time. Yale is no small accomplishment for anyone, even now - unless you're a legacy like Bush. So, she was on track to have an impressive career on her own. The decision to let Bill function as the politician in their partnership was obviously a sound one. He was the one who was good at campaigning - up until recently. But I think that should could have gone far on her own. On the other hand, I've felt from the beginning that if she were the first woman president it would be with an asterisk. Having been First Lady and still being married to - and political partners with - the former President really takes the bloom off that rose.

[TLM]

24. I give her credit for getting into Yale....

however the decision to get behind Bill, was a result of her failing the DC bar exam. She tried to make it herself, and failed.




From Living History (Pages 64-65):

I had taken both the Arkansas and Washington, D.C., bar exams during the summer, but my heart was pulling me towards Arkansas. When I learned that I had passed in Arkansas but failed in D.C., I thought maybe my test scores were telling me something. I spent a lot of my salary on my telephone bills and was so happy when Bill came to see me over Thanksgiving. We spent our time exploring Boston and talking about our future.

[union_maid]

53. Failing one bar exam isn't really failing

It'd be surprising to pass two at once. Most people study hard just for the one. It's not unusual to have to take it a couple of times. I mean, my sister passed the NY bar the first time, but she's smarter than most people. :)

[Marrah_G]

7. Unbelievable...........

[texastoast]

8. Read a little Gloria Steinem

You'll understand better about women in this culture.

We've got a long way to go, baby.

[EFerrari]

12. Steinem is a partisan and has lost a lot of her street cred

in her tortured defenses of Clinton.

Alice Walker is much more balances. There's a greet In Depth interview with her at the BookTv site.

[texastoast]

17. Read Steinem's stuff without the current political stuff

Steinem is absolutely correct about why Hill is being bashed. And it really has nothing to do with the election.

[EFerrari]

19. As I said, Steinem has lost a lot of cred because of her tortured defense

of this botched campaign.

[texastoast]

20. So you discount everything she has ever said? n/t

[EFerrari]

22. What a strange conclusin to draw. n/t

[texastoast]

26. You are the one who said she lost her cred

So I would like for you to tell me just why that is, other than what you have already posted.

Just exactly what has she said about women in this culture that is no longer valid?

[EFerrari]

38. Steinem has made the mistake of assuming that stumping for Clinton

is the same as forwarding equality for women when the movement is never about any single person. She's made ridiculous assertions such as Americans take racism more seriously than sexism -- as if we have to chose what form of bigotry we have to redress. Disgraceful.

And at times, she doesn't even seem to know the person she is stumping for. While campaigning for Clinton, she said this:

“I am so grateful that she hasn’t been trained to kill anybody. And she probably didn’t even play war games as a kid. It’s a great relief from Bush in his jump suit and from Kerry saluting.”

And she said that WHILE Hillary was claiming that she'd be ready to obliterate on Day 1.

Go find Steinem's statements during this campaign. They are as disappointing as Morgan's are. They show a real lack of perspective and that's a generous assessment.

[texastoast]

43. Ridiculous assertions that racism is taken more seriously?

I'm sorry, but I just have to laugh. You've obviously never read her stuff and had her explain such reasoning in contect of ALL RACES and how women in ALL RACES are treated. Good night.

[EFerrari]

47. Wrong. I've not only read but studied just about her whole body of work.

There is no excuse for privileging one form of discrimination over another.

Maybe you need to go back to your reading.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

68. That's what got me too.

In her NYT editorial she said that Hillary Clinton wouldn't have to prove her masculinity. I was like WTF are you talking about Gloria? That was the whole point of her war vote and her saber-rattle posturing on foreign policy issues during the campaign.

[beac]

97. Not to mention learning to blast stuff with a shotgun behind the "shack" where

her grandpappy lived.

[janx]

23. Steinem is good in her own right,

but this has nothing to do with Senator Clinton.

[texastoast]

34. I'm rereading a bunch of her stuff right now

from the 70s and 80s. Most men (and many women) do not want women to be in high places and the subtleties of how this culture continues to keep women's value out of our "liberated" society are very tricky.

[TLM]

76. I hear that a lot... very tricky and very nuanced and very subtle...

which begs the question... if the examples of this all powerful force that is oppressing all women is so mystical and subtle that specific and causal examples are so few and far between, how powerful can it be? Anymore asking an ardent feminist to point out how american women are currently being subjugated and oppressed on some vast scale through some significant collective effort, is like asking a creationist to explain dinosaur fossils. All you get are general proclamations of what they believe the truth to be, which seem to have little or nothing to do with reality.


"Most men "

Sell your sexist excuses elsewhere. I'm not buying.

Hillary is not failing because men don't want a woman in power. She's failing because she ran a shitty campaign and alienated her base with support for the war in Iraq.

Stop trying to blame her failures on everybody else somehow hating or fearing her vagina.

[TLM]

63. A long way to go to get to where?

I see more an more modern feminism seemingly aiming not for equality, but for some fluctuating limbo where an amorphous and ever-shifting feminist ideology is presented as a universal shield for any statements, beliefs, or actions.

I think we see that in Hillary's campaign, where she whips out her gender anytime it is convenient, then accuses others of focusing on her gender as a native any time she needs a deflection. It's like a swiss army vagina... no matter what the circumstances it is the go-to tool. She can cite her gender as a reason to vote for her... but any criticisms of her are met with cries of sexism.

And I think that Steinem, like many other feminist icons, has a vested interest in maintaining the perception that women in this country are all horribly subjugated and oppressed... as she stumps for a woman running for the highest office in the country, seemingly blind to the contradiction that represents.

When you go from fighting for voting rights and equal pay, to fighting over "spokesman" being changed to "spokesperson"... congrats, you've won. The real fights are over.

[unapatriciated]

153. "spokesman" being changed to "spokesperson" another straw man argument

I and the majority of women could care less about that and more about this....

Recent wage data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics does not give cause for celebration. In 2007, women earned only 80 cents for every dollar a man earned.
This pay gap was substantially greater for minorities, with African-American women making only 70 cents and Hispanic women making only 62 cents for every dollar earned by their male counterparts.
While women are more reluctant to negotiate salaries and are often employed in underpaid professions, one grim reality remains - gender-based discrimination still inherent in our society has largely caused the pay gap that persists today.

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/opinion/83270.php


I think you have blinders on when it comes to discrimination against women, your use a of RW taking point "spokesman" being changed to "spokesperson" only affirms it for me.

[Barack_America]

13. Without Bill, I'm not sure that Hillary would've gotten into politics.

Can't exactly say why, it's just a feeling I get about her.

But if she had, she could've have made it without Bill. Absolutely.

[TLM]

78. But this far? Would she be in the position of springing from senate to a presidential run?

Or would she have had to actually work for it like say Barbabra Boxer?

I think Boxer would make a fine president, and frankly has way way way more cred to run for the office than Hillary.

[VotesForWomen]

105. did you ever consider that bill wouldn't have gotten so far without Hillary? oh nevermind.

[unapatriciated]

150. lol my thoughts exactly....

[NotThisTime]

14. Well, as a woman, I can say, yes, she did get her senate seat because of who

she was married to, at least the first go round, she didn't have much competition the next go round, so she won that on her own I suppose.... as for President, personally, I know she is a lawyer, but I see nothing more there THERE than I see in any other Presidential hopeful, and often I see less. It is said she is a smart woman, I believe it, I'm sure she is, but she wasn't first lady because of what she was, only who she was married to. She has cast votes that I disagreed with as a senator, she has not come out to apologize for them, in fact she apologizes for very little. That reminds me of our current president. The kitchen sink? How did that work out? The Celestial Choirs? How did that work out, this is all from her own mouth, exactly how did it work out, and what did it say to us women who had defended her all these years, but yet chose another candidate based on our requirements this year? It said we were not worthy, we did not count, Small states did not count, caucus states did not count, the texas two step did not count, but states that did not count actually did count, she just forgot.

What Hillary has done has profited off the hard working women trying to raise families on their own, it has not endeared Liberal, self made women to her, at least not in my case. I did not get to where I am because of a man or because of some quota, I made it by making smart, rational, logical decisions. I often made more than the men, and I worked hard for it.

What has Hilary done for me this primary season? She has embarrassed me, she has embarrassed herself, and after all those years of defending her, I can no longer defend her.

[merh]

88. I share your opinions.

and am glad you have joined DU. Welcome :toast:

[hopein08]

16. We get it, you like Obama

Get the urge to announce it repeatedly and trample all over the opinions of others much? There really is something undemocratic of loaded and obviously leaning questions such as this.

But here's what got me. You said...

"I don't understand how a single mother raising kids on a working class salary, can see Hillary's pompous facade as anything other than a huge insult. Or how any women who worked hard to make their own way in life can see Hillary atop Bill's shoulders claiming she's 12 feet tall, as anything but an insult."

I could say...

I don't understand how a single mother raising kids on a working class salary can see Obama's pompous facade as anything other than a huge insult. Or how anyone who worked hard to make there own way, bit by bit, in life can see Obama's claims of being a little girl, working for the little guy and being the voice of change as anything but at insult.

I believe that just as much as what you said but I didn't attack you over it. Until you attacked me.

[TLM]

80. How is expressing my opinion, somehow trampling yours?

Again we see this expression that even having a less than fawning opinion of hillary is somehow a vicious act of oppressive violence, an anti-democratic violation of someone else's right to exist in an all pro-hillary world.

"I believe that just as much as what you said but I didn't attack you over it. Until you attacked me."

Care to cite where I "attacked" you?

And while you are at it... cite where Obama claimed to be, "a little girl".

[EFerrari]

18. My mom really is one of those "amazing strong women" who

came from poverty, made her own way as an immigrant and a single mom and achieved a great deal including wealth. I've yet to meet anyone that can carry her lunch. Certainly not Clinton.

[ampad]

33. Same here

My granny raised me and that woman worked her ass off for us. She had to deal with racism on top of the sexism. I admire the hell out of her. There were many a days that my granny would come home, dead tired, with tears in her eyes from dealing with racist pigs but she kept on moving and finally saved up enough money to buy her dream home. IMO, my granny is the epitome of a strong woman whom Clinton could never hold a candle to.

[EFerrari]

41. Then you and I were both lucky to know the real thing, ampad.

:toast:

[Swamp Rat]

71. Same here

My mother, grandmother, great-grandmother are the strongest, brightest, most creative and resourceful people I have ever had the privilege to know.

¡salud! :toast:

[EFerrari]

89. Ain't nothing like the real thing, baby.

:toast:

[TLM]

85. Exactly...congrats. Stong women are a truly and wonderfully inspirational force.

I too have had a number of strong accomplished women in my life. I see little celebration of them and the reality of their struggles and accomplishments.

So it irritates me when I see someone like Hillary, who really has coasted through a lot of her life, being held up as an example of what women should try to emulate.


Great message to send to young girls, you too can be president... provided you were married to a president.

[Cleita]

30. I have to agree with you.

She probably should be known on her own and not part of Bill Clinton's dynasty. I thought she was rather admirable during the Monica Lewinsky
scandal/witchhunt for not adding to it with the First Lady leaving the President in spite of her hurt. She kept the office intact. When she ran for senator, I was a little suspicious of the political ambitions of "the Clintons" but I didn't live in NY. It seems to me now that the Clintons are not a marriage but a political business or corporation. I wish her well no matter where she lands.

[greguganus]

37. She rides the coattails her cheating husband. Not independent so much. n/t

[AZBlue]

39. Even the "accomplishments" she lists are based upon her husband's presidency.

She's pretending she was co-president with him. She's using just about everybody she can in her struggle to win an office for which she is neither competant or moral enough. We've had 8 years of that - enough!

[Hansel]

59. Not impressed. She's gotten where she is mostly on Bill's coat tails

She's really not the type of woman I admire as being independent. There are many other woman that are much better role models as independent woman. I'm actually kind of repulsed by how she uses being female to manipulate both woman supporters and the media. She takes no responsibility for her own failures and instead tries to blame them on being treated differently because she is a female.

This is a woman who was given every benefit and advantage because of who she was married to and now is complaining about sexism instead of taking responsibility for not being competent enough to capitalize on her advantages.

[stillcool]

65. I think it's been difficult...

..for her to be real. She's had to walk a tight-rope..trying to portray an image of 'toughness' and yet not be too hard. I don't think she is comfortable, or secure with the image she is trying to project. I think the Bosnia thing is an example of her attempt to tweak her image. It is like she makes herself up on the fly. Trying on different persona's to see what fits, or what will work. I can empathize with her position, and I'm sure that her campaign will provide insight for the next woman who comes along. I think if she would have been more secure in her own abilities things would have turned out much differently.

[Critters2]

66. So, your issue with her is that she's married?

A married woman MUST be benefitting from her husband's position? Yeah, nothing sexist about that.

[TLM]

86. I notice that extrapolation to all women is often a tactic used to deflect criticisms of hillary.

All women were not married to a former president... all women are not currently running for president and trying to tout the accomplishments of their husbands as their own... all women did not leapfrog through the senate to run for president.

Stop using all women as a shield to protect hillary from valid questions and criticisms regarding her riding her husbands coattails.

[Critters2]

141. All women did not leapfrog through the senate to run for president.

No, but Obama did. That doesn't bother you?

[TLM]

144. So are you claiming obama held no political office before the senate?

Hillary was simply married to an office holder, and that got her into the senate in NY, from where she leap-froged to run for president.

Obama held a state level political position, prior to going to the senate and then on to run for president.

But nice try at deflecting from being caught up in making your previous irrelevant extrapolation deflection.

[Critters2]

146. Obama is my Senator. But in that office, he's done nothing

but run for President. I'd like to represented by two senators, like everyone else.

[EFerrari]

91. "Two for one". What she offered was herself AND Bill

She exploited her husband's position. And no, there's nothing sexist about pointing that out.

[VotesForWomen]

106. excuse me, is there something wrong with a husband and wife working together as a team? jeezus, you

must have a really twisted view of marriage.

[EFerrari]

130. My husband and I worked together for many years

and I never became confused about who did what, nor did I claim his work was mine.

[OhioBlue]

67. well, I have mixed feelings on your post.

I am a strong Obama supporter and have been upset with Hillary since her Ohio Primary campaign. She has done and said things that left me angry with her. Her "shame on you Barack Obama" her mocking speech of the "sky will open up....", her acceptance of the IAM guy that introduced her that referred to Obama supporters as "latte liberals...", etc. Following this, her actions combined with those of her campaign and surrogates that did race bait, her compliments to McCain over Obama, her continued campaign that divides us, that intends to turn women and the voters of MI and FL against Obama and the DNC, her repeated reference to RFK's assassination combined with "any thing can happen", etc. have left me disgusted with her.

I don't think she is the best role model for women for many reasons. One is , as you mention that she attempts to paint the picture of a self-made, strong woman. We all know that she is where she is right now because of name recognition. Also, I truly believe that strong women are those that are true to themselves. She has never given me that impression.

However..... I am not comfortable to dismiss her accomplishments as only Bill's. Perhaps Bill never would have been Governor or President without Hillary. We don't know. She is obviously a smart and hardworking woman. It is okay with me if a woman stays with her husband that cheated on her. That is her choice and only they know the circumstances. Just as I believe a true feminist can be a stay at home mom if she choses to be.

I don't like all of the accusations of sexism where I just don't see it. However, to pretend like it isn't a factor is silly. It is. Sexist comments are made, some people will hesitate to put a woman in an authoritative role. But, I don't believe for a moment that sexism is the reason that Hillary is not our nominee. If she would have run a better campaign, she would be our nominee, despite her IWR vote, and running on the corporate friendly, NAFTA passing, Welfare reform Clinton legacy.

[gateley]

73. I think Hillary would have accomplished a lot even without

being married to Bill. She's extremely intelligent and focused.

[TBF]

77. I agree she's intelligent & focused - but Bill was her ticket into politics.

I know someone who went to law school with them at Yale and he commented that she was always studying, made insightful comments in class and took alot of notes - while Bill was out working on campaigns. I really do believe Bill is the political creature and he is the one who is behind some of the negativity in this campaign.

I think she would've been very successful in the private sector without him. She is not the most pleasant person (we saw glimpses of that in the 90's), and again while working in Washington I knew people who worked for her at the White House. The feeling was that she was not a person to cross.

She's a very bright lady, but I don't think politics would've really been her calling without Bill.

[Orangepeel]

75. She certainly could have been a Senator if her life had taken another path. Why not?

She's smart and ambitious.

Given the time period in which the Clintons got married and the fact that Bill is much more charismatic than Hillary, it makes sense that they would have chosen to focus on his political career. That was probably the quickest and most likely path to power.

But that probably wasn't the only way for her to get to the point she is at.

[TLM]

87. Maybe... but she wouldn't have gotten into NY senate after living in NY a year.

She would have had to work her way up from lower offices... state level and so on.


She wouldn't have just showed up and got elected like she did in NY, coasting on name recognition.

[hfojvt]

81. I'm not a woman, but I don't think you are being entirely fair

First, you must know that she accomplished a few things on her own (at least before she met Bill). She was elected to give the commencement address at Wellesley. Going to Yale and graduating from Law School. Working on the Nixon impeachment case.

Second, and I am sure Bill would vouch for this, and am surprised there is not a circulated quote or two from his book to state this. All of the things Bill did, he did WITH HER HELP. Unless he is a bachelor or a louse, no man is gonna acheive things and not give huge kudos to his spouse. She had his back on the Sixty Minutes interview that quashed the Flowers incident. She campaigned for him in probably all his elections and is a more than capable speaker. Bill's Presidency was advertised as a two-for-one because you got his intelligent spouse in the package too.

Third, there is no way to tell what she would have accomplished on her own if she hadn't put her own political ambitions behind her husband's. She had a huge advantage with name recognition, but she also won lots of hearts and minds with her listening tour of upstate New York. Also, she was so unpopular with the GOP that she was actually outspent by her opponent. Obviously she could not run for political office herself until after Bill retired.

Fourth, she has been doing her own speaking and debating in this campaign and has done quite well in both debates and town halls - even when some of the debates were 7 against 1 and 1/2 (with even the moderators seemingly against her and only Richardson kinda having her back). She's also been a decent Senator (except for some huge blunders which Kerry and Edwards also made) and probably done most of her own work there.

The facade of her accomplishments is not as phony as you make it.

[Demobrat]

82. I could never think of Hillary as the first woman president

even if she won. She's not running as a woman, she's running as half of a power couple. It's not the same thing at all.

[DerekJ]

84. *****DING DING DING*** (Half of a power couple) we’ve got a winner.

[concerned canadian]

93. "half a power couple" haha

A winner for sure, fellow canuck

[EFerrari]

92. Exactly.

[merh]

94. exactly!

and many of the pro-hillary folks admitted that they were supportive of her candidacy because it meant we got two for one, bill was part of the package deal. They now realize how weak an argument that is and don't use it as often but that doesn't mean they still don't feel that way.

[FatDave]

96. I know your not asking me.

Since your OP is directed at "DU women", but I gotta chime in with my $.02.

I think between Bill and Hillary, Hillary is actually the driven one. Really, look at their personalities. Hillary seems to be the one who will go after what she wants with everything she's got (and then some). Bill seems far more laid back and go-with0the-flow. Granted, that may just be appearances. Or maybe Bill is just as driven as Hillary but makes it look easier.

I saw a guy named Rick Cleveland do a one-man-show about his unlikely friendship with Bill Clinton during and after his presidency. It was called "My Buddy Bill" and if you ever get the opportunity, you should see it because it was funny and full of insight. He was a writer for The West Wing, they got to do a meet & greet, his family raised retrievers, so he & Bill kind of hit off. Anyway, in his show he told a story that Bill had told him. So yeah, you're getting it like 4th or 5th hand from me, but anyway...

Sometime during Clinton's presidency on some public appearance, they wound up at gas station that turned out to be owned by a man Hillary had dated in high school. Bill said to her "Just think, if you'd married him you'd be married to the owner of a gas station." The story goes that she replied, "no, I'd be married to the President of the United States." I probably screwed that up, and you should take it with however many grains of salt you see fit anyway.

Supposedly, Hillary later told him he couldn't be friends with Bill anymore (due to an incident in Amsterdam involving Chrostopher Walken and a hash bar), and that was the end of their friendship.

But bottom line, yes, I think Hillary would be a successful politician today even without Bill. And I'd probably still be voting for Obama.

[Demobrat]

100. Nobody's saying she's wouldn't be a successful politician without Bill.

I'm sure she would be. First female POTUS, not so much.

[hfojvt]

101. yes you screwed it up and the same story was told by Joel Osteen

or about Joel's wife.

It goes, "No, if I'd married him, HE would be President of the United States."

[FatDave]

140. That's the same thing my version says.

Bill: "You'd be married to the owner of a gas station."
Hillary: "No, I'd be married to the POTUS."

The meaning, possibly obscured by dry humor, is that he would be the president (presumably due to Hillary's drive) and not the owner of a gas station.

[hfojvt]

142. not quite. It's ambiguous

In your telling, she might have divorced the gas station guy and married some Presidential candidate.

[barack the house]

102. I can see where you are coming form but they know this we have to ease up to let them ..

disconnect from their choice and then re-engage with the next candidate. They feel about their Candida as we do for ours,it may mean that sometimes flaws are excused but we have to let them naturally come around than by force.

[cornermouse]

103. I think you've succeeded in creating an echo chamber.

I think you've driven off almost everyone who supported Hillary and I wonder how many other who supported other candidates but who see the hatred towards Hillary and know that they're next if they say anything you (group not individual) don't like. Something you might want to think about.

[VotesForWomen]

104. uh, you don't think hillary helped bill get where he got?? he was "independent;" she was just a hang

hanger-on? it that what you're saying? might it not be possible that they worked together as a team? this feminist doesn't think that's a bad thing. hillary was involved and supporting bill at every step of the way in his career, and she has every right to claim at least partial credit for the accomplishments that occurred during his administration. ditto for the blame. why do you anti-feminists feel the need to push this notion that a husband and a wife shouldn't work together and help each other? i think it's great that they're such a strong team.

[midnight]

107. Because no one should go it alone.

Independence is over rated. Why would any of us want to be considered in terms of a word that clearly will not allow us to embrace unity which is how I see Senator Clinton. She tried to unify the insurance co., congress and America around the idea that medical treatment is for all of America. She showed us how many people coming together to help raise her wonderful daughter was what we all should have via her book, It takes a village to raise a child. She demonstrated unity when her husband didn't. The trials of this Senator have shown her to be human. And after the last seven plus years of inhuman behavior coming from Washington, that should be the independence we ask for.

[Demobrat]

111. Actually I would have settled for

a no vote on the AWR. Now that would have shown independence.

[Kixel]

109. My opinion...

Hillary is a brilliant woman who lacks the charisma to have made it politically without trading on her husbands name. She is grossly talented, she would have been a success without a doubt.

[Arkansas Granny]

112. Hillary has been active politically since she was a young woman.

There are some who believe, myself included, that she chose to put her own ambitions on hold while she helped Bill advance in public office. With that accomplished, she was ready to embark on her own career. This scenario has been played out before in other fields of endeavor. While it can't be denied that she has enjoyed the name recognition of being a former First Lady, I don't believe she expects anything to be handed to her. She has put a lot of hard work into her bid for the Presidential nomination and let's face it, Bill has been a liability to her, in some ways, as well as an asset.

You don't have to be a single parent rasing kids on a working class salary to appreciate the difficulties of that task and I believe that Hillary has a very good understanding of those circumstances even though she never experienced them herself. She has a history of being involved in endeavors to benefit children, women and families. I think this is one reason that many women connect with her and continue to support her.

[rodeodance]

113. You know NOTHING about her to write such an OP. Shameful!!

[geiger]

114. It makes ya wonder if Hill and Bill made a deal that he would go first

...just because it would help pave the way for her.

I wanted a woman President so bad, and she has just taken all the joy out of the thought of it.

I keep waking up thinking she has won, having bought off enough super delegates.

And she would be totally fine with it, while the rest of the country alternately writhed and wondered 'what has become of us?'

[cornermouse]

119. In real life....

What usually happens is that wife/mother puts her own ambitions on the back burner to help her husband and later children succeed. Not every husband then turns around and actively supports her in return. I'm starting to see why she didn't dump Bill.

[geiger]

132. good one.

[Kahuna]

117. Hillary is an accomplished woman. But she is not representing strong,

independent well right now. Hillary's behavior is like that of devious, soap opera divas. I never see feminism crusaders cheering on those divas. So I really don't understand why they are so supportive of Hillary. She gives me the creeps.

[Medusa]

122. If her last name wasn't Clinton

she'd never in a million years been elected to the senate on such a flimsy resume, and 99.9% of that was directly attributal to Bill's appointing her to this or that committee, etc. I've laughed out loud from the beginning at her and her "independent woman" claim.

I'm a first generation college graduate. Both my parents had to drop out of high school and go to work to help support their families. I made my way in a male-dominated industry (architecture) and I know what it's like to have to battle sexism. But you know what? I made it 100% on my own merits and there is nothing more I resent that someone who has coasted on their husband's power or wealth or influence to get where they are.

[NashVegas]

123. When Hillary Rodham Married Bill Clinton

It was an era where the general thought was that women had to choose: marriage or a career. Waiting until you were 30-35 and established in your career wasn't done.

But just because these women who married put their careers on hold doesn't mean they weren't every bit as competent.

I don't understand how a single mother raising kids on a working class salary, can see Hillary's pompous facade as anything other than a huge insult.

Why should they be insulted simply because they made a different choice than HC did?

Or how any women who worked hard to make their own way in life can see Hillary atop Bill's shoulders claiming she's 12 feet tall, as anything but an insult.

Funny. I have a friend who dropped out of medical school to become at at-home mother. She raised 3 amazing, smart, healthy, giving children and now that they're almost all grown and out of the house, she's back in the workforce and out-earning her husband, the engineer. Someday, she'll be mayor.

I chose a different path from marriage and worked hard to get where I am. Who am I to be angry with any woman who is able to succeed with the emotional support of a husband and family? I envy that. I covet that. But I don't blame Hillary Clinton for my choices.


You know what's an insult? Watching you or anyone tell women how we're supposed to think or what we're supposed to be insulted by.

[TexasObserver]

124. Hillary has never accomplished anything on her own in her life.

She went from her daddy taking care of her to her husband taking care of her. She's been trading on Bill's success for 35 years. She's Mrs. Clinton, a former first lady.

[Evergreen Emerald]

125. This is one of the most ignorant, uniformed threads I have ever read

Just when you think DU could sink no lower.

[Berry Cool]

131. She's a strong woman, and could have been self-made, but that was not the path she chose.

Being politically ambitious, she chose a husband as ambitious as she, and agreed with him (as I see it) to achieve her aspirations by "letting him go first" to pave the path for her. It was easier than having to break all the ground herself.

She's not independent at all. She COULD have gotten where she is today, possibly, without Bill, but we'll never know for sure, because she chose to use Bill to help her achieve her accomplishments. And she frequently passes off his work (even his unsuccessful work) as her own.

No one is completely self-made, but many women got where they are in life, as you say, "not by being handed things by their husband, but though their own hard work and struggle." I agree that they are far more impressive and inspiring than Hillary. And that when she parades around as a strong self-made super woman, it's demeaning to the women who work hard to overcome real adversity without the help of a millionaire former president husband.

I am amazed that women in West Virginia, who have suffered a thing or two, can bounce around and smile while at one of her campaign rallies while Dolly Parton's song "9 to 5" plays. That song is about a woman totally unlike Hillary or anything she's known...a woman responsible for making her own way in the world, who toils as a secretary for an oppressive male boss, who dreams of making more money and having more in life than she does. That's the real life of many women in this country. How can they identify with Hillary when she pretends to be one of them? I can only assume that when they do, they adopt the same suspension of disbelief when they listen to Dolly sing the song or see her play the role in the movie. They know that in real life, Dolly's a wealthy country singer, not a poor secretary...they know she's playing a role. When they go to a Hillary rally, they seem to accept that she, too, is playing a role...they go there and for a few hours, she's not a wealthy senator with a millionaire former president husband and a grown daughter working as a hedge fund manager, she's a humble minimum-wage secretary with no man and a young child she tucks into bed alone every night. And she understands them. She knows what it's like to be them. And she's going to help them. How? Well...because she's not really a humble minimum-wage secretary with no man and a young child she tucks into bed alone every night, she's a wealthy senator with a millionaire former president husband running for President.

I don't get it. It's like some people can see both her true self and her false self at the same time and believe equally in both. I can't. All I can see is the real her. I wish I could see the real her as someone who cares about other women and their problems--the problems of women who have no man to smooth the path, the problems of women who don't have the money she has. But I can't.

[loyalsister]

135. I have been saying this all along

I believe that Hillary is an intelligent and skilled politician and I could not say where she would be if she had not married Bill. In fact, she could very well have been my preferred candidate at some point.

But to my mind, the fact that she used her activities during his time in office to claim accomplishments for her campaign to follow him into the presidency, does kill her assertion that there is a true glass ceiling hanging over her run.

I believe that feminism can in no way legitimately be attached to her run for office.
Since the talk of her running began, I have been disappointed at the idea of having the first woman president be one whose husband "cleared the way."
Yes it's true that she is capable and she may have reached this point and beyond without a pres. Bill Clinton, but we will never know. The fact of the matter is, he did go first, and there would always be the impression that the first woman president got there because her husband cleared the way. Particularly when she used her activities during his tenure in office to bolster her campaign.

[Fla Dem]

145. You have NO idea what Hillary Clinton could have done if she had not married Bill Clinton.

Hillary was a successful woman in her own right. She may very well have gone on to gain prominence without being married to Bill Clinton. In fact, I would venture to "guess" she may have exceeded her current position.

"A native of Illinois, Hillary Rodham first attracted national attention in 1969 for her remarks as the first student to deliver the commencement address at Wellesley College. She embarked on a career in law after graduating from Yale Law School in 1973. Following a stint as a Congressional legal counsel, she moved to Arkansas in 1974, and married Bill Clinton in 1975. She was later named the first female partner at Rose Law Firm in 1979, and was twice listed as one of the one hundred most influential lawyers in America."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_clinton

Typical sexist remark....a woman cannot achieve without a man's influence.

[JerseygirlCT]

148. I'm going to try to be fair here

Yes, being the wife of a governor and then president is surely a big leap in recognition and in power. Undoubtedly, that helped her tremendously.

But I think what might get lost here is that in a marriage, the achievements of one partner are often due to the (unseen perhaps) contributions of the other. So I don't think we can know how much of *his* success is due to her, either.

I do not think she can make a compelling claim to having achieved what she has on her own - she has not. But I don't think that her husband can be credited with it all, either. I think it's safe to assume that together, they made him president, and then made her a senator and then presidential candidate.

Have other women achieved high positions without famous husbands? Yes. And absolutely can do so again. In most cases of people who have achieved high positions though, I'd bet you'd find *someone* behind them who contributed in a big way to that success. It's probably almost impossible to figure out exactly how much.

After this campaign, I tend to have an instinctive distrust of anything I hear from her or her people. They've twisted, spun and manipulated everything they can to put her in the best light. Perhaps the way the game is played; but it has its costs, and distrust is one of them. So I'm not personally sure what the motive is when claims of celebrating hard working women are made: is this serious, or is this positioning? I don't know, is the honest answer.

But I also don't know that I can separate what's been achieved by Hillary and what by the team of Bill and Hillary...

That said, I'm one woman who considers herself strong (enough!) and independent and is not supporting Clinton. That's my choice, and I made it thoughtfully.

But I don't know that the cause of future strong independent women in politics is furthered by questioning the "independent" qualifications of each woman who achieves a powerful position.

[Cherchez la Femme]

152. Dear JerseygirlCT

of course, if you see my other post here I believe I have proved (if you respect or believe Senator D. Moynihan) that Hillary, in great part, did indeed achieve much for herself, by herself -- of her own will. Nor do I think that she has been so very manipulative, twisted, or overly 'spinning' -- I have seen much trespuzzling hysteria. For example, the delirium about 'her wishing or waiting for Senator Obama to be assassinated' to me, is absolutely ridiculous and Paranoid. She was obviously talking about timing and when other, previous, candidates have stayed in the race, wishfully, hopefully, in that specific case, to the bitter end.
I can't help but wonder if Senator Clinton were a man, if she would be so hard pressed to just give up and let ht man take dominion -- much like the calls for Queen Elizabeth to step down 'to give her son Charles a chance to rule'.

Never has that been posited while a male is the regent -- of the U.K. nor any country!


However that's not the point I'd like to make...


You wrote:

In most cases of people who have achieved high positions though, I'd bet you'd find *someone* behind them who contributed in a big way to that success.

That sentiment closely resembles the absolute truth in the statement of Sir Isaac Newton, who spoke about being able to see and achieve

...because I have stood on the shoulders of giants

Kudos to you! How true!

A precious few humans (nor, indeed, very few of the Animal Kingdom) have been able to claim that their especial creation has sprung as unique and as as original as Venus being born from the waves with absolutely no precursor or built upon any precedent. Most if not all unique or truly novel happenings and ideas are based in some way upon some precedent; whether by observation, occurrence, accident (which behavior is built off of something, possibly non-related) or deliberate, previous experiment.

Heck, if one is God Herself one cannot claim that the creation of the universe s unique, is the alpha or the apex of all things.
Furthermore, IS there only one? And to bring the dimension of time into it, WHEN or WHAT ORDER would "the first" --if such a thing is possible-- would the intial on come into being? As an example, creation could be done by certain, special God(s) and at that quite often! (To wit in this example: the LDS dogma -- only they would be God(s), masculine, not -esses; the feminine gender in that quaint belief system being undeserving of equal rights, equal respect, or even the privilege of worshipping alongside the men! : )

[Cherchez la Femme]

151. As attached as she was to Bill

there is much in her history that has nothing whatsoever to do with him.

For instance, when she was first campaigning and then newly elected as a N.Y. Senator (relatively, as this example I'm going to give stretches throughout at least 3-4 years), the retiring senator, Daniel P. Moynihan, at first did not like her at all and thought she was just going for power not to serve the people of the State of New York.

He was very surprised.

She was diligent, humble, there wasn't anything to 'beneath her' to learn or to do.
She'd run around fetching coffee for people, for Pete's sake! The former First Lady!
Picture any modern (< past 50 years)First Lady, other than perhaps Rosalynn Carter, who would willingly and uncomplainingly serve rather than demand to be served.
But more than such minor, at least in the political sphere, considerations; Ms. Clinton
was humble enough (there's that word again) that even though she served 8 years in the White House (not to mention her years in the governors mansion in Arkansas) and was active politically helping Bill throughout that entire time and before, she approached her new position as if she knew nothing at all about the in's & out's of politics; going in as a blank slate as it were. She didn't have a chip on her shoulder, kept her mouth shut and diligently listened and learned. According to Moynihan, she learned from every mistake she made (which, according to him, were very few); therefore they weren't repeated.

By the time Moynihan finally faded from politics altogether and completely retired, dying too soon after a lifetime serving the people of our state and country (I'm a transplanted New Yorker, but proudly born & bred), the woman who he had initially disliked --and indeed seemed to think so poorly of
exactly as you do
in the end he stated he was incredibly impressed with everything about her;
--her intelligence, diligence, work ethic, and most importantly (to him) her real desire to serve her constituents.

That says much, coming from Daniel Patrick Moynihan.


Please note this is not me averring all this, personally I'm trying not to have a specific dog in this unfortunate fight other than a Democratic one; ...although I DO admit I'm extremely fascinated, disappointed and yes, outraged with the very shoddy treatment, sexist and lookist slurs, personal insults, vituperative comments and outright vicious rhetoric and hate she is receiving -- all of this which in NO way is solely issuing from Republicans, Reich whingers, evangelicals and other assorted non-Democrats!)
This information is from an article I read written by Senator Moynihan himself, penned (if my memory serves me correctly, which may not exact, but close) about the the 3rd or 4th year of Senator Clinton's first term.
That was a while ago, and was unfortunately at least one computer ago so I no longer have the article or link; but it shouldn't be very difficult to track down if anyone wishes to. The article/essay also prominently mentioned Moynihan's special NY camp/property, which he loved and I believe had his office (although I'm a big chagrined that I cannot recall it's name at the moment).


As a long time admirer of Senator Moynihan, I was quite impressed. To me, IMO he's a true hero. He was a spectacular and selfless public servant, a beloved, legendary Democrat AND Liberal and --get this-- a real, honest-to-Gawd honest politician (!)


And now we have all this fucking mess, with Democrats going for the jugular against fellow Dem's instead of respecting others right to their own opinions while reserving their own opinion to themselves.


This bullshit must stop.



As for myself, I'm much more prone to believe an article written years ago by a well respected man over the current hysteria put out by so many so-called,
no, self-appellated
'live-and-let-live' "Liberals"***


***Liberal Democrats who nurse heavy agendas against other Democrats
and many who I surmise --no offense to the true Obama fans!-- who will turn out to be Freeper's in disguise just trying to do what is their sad, pathetic goal in life (no, it AIN'T donning the uniform and going to fight this war they are so in love with): fuck everything up beyond all recognition

and ruin it for us.


No offense dear TLM -- you spoke you your truth, which is your right: and as is my right, this is MY truth
--which also happens to come direct from the pen and direct observations of the Late, Great Daniel Moynihans.

[IowaGirl]

154. Hillary's teachers thought SHE would be the one who would be....

President of the U.S. It's as I always say, behind every good woman, there is a man dragging her back as hard as he can and this seems to be the best example I have ever seen. She has a long history of working for the underprivileged, for women and for children. She was the first student valedictorian speaker of her college and received a long standing ovation. She's been president of more groups than I can count. It looks like if riding coattails was all it took, we'd have had several women presidents by now with all the first ladies we've had.