Bill Clinton: 50% an appropriate penalty. Harold Ickes: only 100% seating will do.

[madfloridian]

This is an amazing phenomenon. There are actually varied views at varied times among those in the Clinton campaign on how the delegates should be seated.

I was surprised to read today that last week Bill Clinton said the seating of Florida's delegates by the same 50% rules as the Republicans was okay with him. Note that it is also acceptable to Obama, but Hillary calls it insulting. I wonder if she knows what her husband said last week?

Bill Clinton: Florida, Michigan Penalty "Appropriate"

In an interview with the St. Petersburg Times, Obama, D-Ill., called the idea of cutting Florida's delegation in half "a very reasonable solution" to the party's stand-off over how to treat a primary contest that was not sanctioned by the Democratic National Committee.

Sen. Clinton dismissed the suggestion, saying she would insist on 100 percent representation for Florida.

"I think that is disingenuous but it's also insulting to the 1.7-million Floridians who actually turned out to vote," Clinton, D-N.Y., said of Obama's proposal, according to the newspaper.

But just last week, Bill Clinton called giving Florida half its delegates -- similar to how the Republican National Committee penalized the state for holding an earlier-than-allowed contest -- an "appropriate penalty."

"The Republican Party said 'OK, we'd like to win Florida in the fall so we are gonna invoke our rule, they got out of turn, we will seat their delegates as half a delegate and seat their superdelegates,' " Clinton said at a campaign event in Missoula, Mon. "That is an appropriate penalty."

Later in the same speech, he pointed out that the same penalty was applied by the GOP to Michigan, which also held a primary earlier than the party allowed.

Then we hear also today that Harold Ickes has different ideas.

Ickes explains that when he voted to strip the delegates from FL and MI last year that it was only done as a cautionary thing....to keep other states from butting. He appears to be saying now that it is okay to seat the full Florida delegation because the other states learned their lesson not to butt. :eyes:

Clinton aide denies flip-flop on Florida, Michigan

(CNN) — Senior Clinton adviser Harold Ickes said again today that his vote last summer to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates was not at odds with his current push to have full slates from both states seated at the Democratic convention.

On a conference call with reporters Thursday, Ickes said his 2007 vote had been intended to send a message to other states not to follow Florida and Michigan’s lead in scheduling their primaries before February – and by that measure, the decision had been a success.

"We started to invoke a full stripping of the delegates from those two states to send a very strong signal to other states that if they broke the window there would be very severe consequences," said Ickes, who added that both states had already been penalized because neither had benefited from the attention or campaign advertising revenue that would have accompanied a legitimate contested primary.

"Lessons were learned and now it is time for us to turn our attention to the general election and to make sure that these states — that we do everything to try to assure that these states are in the Democratic column," he said.

My head just reels sometimes from the confused and varied messages.

I found an amazing video today. There is the juxtaposition of the party chairman, Howard Dean, saying the rules matter....and Clinton surrogate Debbie Wasserman Schultz saying "all of this talk about the rules and that kind of thing is counterproductive".

Howard Dean: We need rules. Wasserman Schultz: Concern about rules unproductive

What an utterly wild ride we have had in Florida. The damage done is in many cases close to being irreparable. When truth doesn't matter and only spin is given credence...harm is done.

[LSparkle]

1. It's looking more and more like Hill n Bill n Icky Ickes want a new DLC Party

They're totally dissing Dean and the rules the DNC set out -- I've
heard speculation of her wanting to run as an independent if she's
not the Dem nominee -- I wouldn't put it past them to want and break
off the DLC wing of the Democratic Party and start their own opera-
tion ... the Democratic Leadership Party or the Clintons For America
Party or ... the Traitorous Arkies Who Broke The Democratic Party ...
the possibilities are endless.

[AZSlacker]

2. From the article:

"We started to invoke a full stripping of the delegates from those two states to send a very strong signal to other states that if they broke the window there would be very severe consequences," said Ickes, who added that both states had already been penalized because neither had benefited from the attention or campaign advertising revenue that would have accompanied a legitimate contested primary."

Oh, I see.. so striping the delegates, and then re-instating them in full will send a strong signal of severe consequences? lol.. I'm pretty sure the signal it will send is that you can ignore the party rules and there will be zero consequences :eyes:

[beac]

36. "I'm gonna spank you... no really THIS TIME I'm REALLY gonna spank you!"

This feeds right into the meme that Democrats are wimps.

"Look, they won't even discipline their own members! HOW can we trust them to combat the TERRA-ISTS??!!??"

[bunnies]

3. aka: the asshole doesnt know what the elbow is doing.

Which is which? You decide.

[madfloridian]

31. Or vice versa.

Pretty much true.

[SoCalDem]

4. Hillie says "Let's meet halfway....at 85% for me and zero for him"

:rofl:

[madfloridian]

6. Amazing, ain't it?

I have been told so many times I was making too much of the FL and MI issues...but guess what? Look at them now. :eyes:

[SoCalDem]

10. I thought so too.. Things like this fester, but Dean probably thought

Hillary was a sane person too.. He may have thought that Obama would flame out as he had, and the whole issue would be moot.. What he did not plan on was her having the "stalker gene" and dragging this thing out so long..

I hope they never do this again.. If a state jumps, I say LET em"..but give them 1/4 of the delegates and if they keep the soopers..strip them of the sooopers.. ..

and from here on in it also need to be in writing..

BIG BOLD LETTERS...

POPULAR VOTE IS FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY..IT DOES NOT COUNT IN ANY WAY , IN DETERMINING NOMINEE..except for the assigning of DELEGATES...

[Why Syzygy]

12. lol "stalker gene"

:rofl:

[MannyGoldstein]

5. Only 500% Will Do!

Oy.

[madfloridian]

13. Or more.

:hi:

[slinkerwink]

7. Once Obama's camp said yes to 50%, they moved the goalposts to 100%

[madfloridian]

9. Exactly.

It is just out of control.

[BearSquirrel2]

16. I'm curious what will happen when Obama agrees ...

After the last vote is counted and he gets his undefeatable amount of superdelegates, I wonder what happens when the Obama camp says sure, give them 100% of what they want. Will the Clinton camp then petition to disqualify caucaus states or weight the states she won more heavily?

[anigbrowl]

18. She should get 1/2 his delegates. He only got famous because he's running against her.

I'm not talking about Michigan and Florida, I mean ALL delegates. He can ask for the VP slot but only if he goes on stage at the convention in sackcloth and ashes.

[beac]

37. How about "Primaries are held on Tuesdays and Thursdays...

ClinTon has a T in it, so I should get all the votes cast on days that start with T. Otherwise, you are being alphabetist by denying me the votes that share a letter with my name!!!"



(edited to correct HTML)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

8. Okay, I have to wonder

Since Hillary and Harold Ickes are sooooo concerned about all the voters in FL not being represented, how do they feel about the Republicans only getting half their delegates seated in FL and MI? Not that it matters from a practical standpoint, since McCain is the nominee, but on principle they should be objecting to it. Voters are voters, after all. Right?

[Why Syzygy]

11. SHE is such a republican surrounded by more republicans.

I cannot even bear to type HER name. Guess she can do more GW mimic and just be *

Do people actually listen to what this Ickes guy has to say?? It is preposterous!

WHAT were the "serious consequences" the other obedient states faced if they went afoul? To be made EXAMPLES OF? And the one that DID misbehave has suffered enough because the hotels and media didn't make MONEY? The POOR VOTERS! Their HOTELS WERE DENIED!

Some example. What about next time, Einstein. All the threats and votes and sanctions mean NOTHING from here on out. Anarchy. The Democratic way :sarcasm:

[BearSquirrel2]

14. Hillary and Bill put together is like John McCain in one piece ....

Hillary and Bill can't keep their message straight between them. But at least they aren't as bad as McCain who can't seem to figure out what his own position is and keep it straight.

No thanks on either. I'll take Obama, the presumptive Democratic nominee.

[madfloridian]

15. Agreed

:hi:

[madfloridian]

17. Kick cause Bill agreed.

.

[madfloridian]

19. Obama and Bill Clinton say 50% is good...Hillary says no...only 100%

I am kicking this again because in my other post people are saying that Obama won't seat them.

I am stunned at the lies that persist here.

[madfloridian]

20. Bill says seat 50%, Hillary says seat all of them...

and she reminds Floridians that McCain would value their vote.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x137109

[Vinca]

21. Since Hillary signed the agreement that disenfranchised them

in the first place, she's got some kind of nerve to insist on what she wants now.

[madfloridian]

22. I do agree with that.

:hi:

[smiley_glad_hands]

23. We don't need any rules, just look at how successfull the last 8 years have been. eom

[Douglas Carpenter]

24. thanks for always keeping people informed...You're doing a great service

[davidpdx]

25. It's clear the only thing they will settle for is 100% seating

of the two delegations. And I wouldn't be surprised at all to see them try something to get caucus pleaded delegates disqualified from voting. Like I said in the other thread, the meeting on the 31st is going to be a circus. It's going to be one ugly affair.

[McCamy Taylor]

26. I also believe that 50% is right because it is in the rules and it is what the GOP did so they have

no advantage this fall in the general election. The only reason we are seating Fl and Mi is so that the Democratic nominee---Obama---can win those two states this fall. If we match the Republicans and if we follow the 50% rule in the Dem bylaws then they will not favor the GOP over us this fall---and it will serve as a warning to other states in 2012.


That sounds like the best GE solution.

[McCamy Taylor]

27. Maybe Bill and Hillary are playing "Good Clinton bad Clinton"

[VolcanoJen]

28. ROFL!!!

Oh, that's good, McCamy!!!!

:rofl: :rofl:

[TeamsterDem]

29. Harold Ickes, the Baghdad Bob of the Clinton Campaign

I can't imagine too many folks take a word this guys says as objective (or even reasonable at this point). Between he and Lanny Davis I'm not sure who exudes more credibility.

[madfloridian]

30. Lest we forget that Bill Clinton agreed to 50% seating.

Kick

[Bette Noir]

32. Rules, schmules,

They had their fingers crossed when they agreed to abide by the rules. Everybody knows that means they get a free pass for breaking them.

If Clinton runs as an independent, since it's clearly impossible for her ot run as a Democrat now, she'll pull off enough Democratic voters to guarantee MeCain's election. Could this be her ultimate goal?

Forget 2012-- she'll never win in any national election.

[geiger]

33. triangulation? wanting it both ways? doesn't sound foreign to Clinton tactics at all.

[Abacus]

34. They need 100% to give any credence to their popular vote argument

There is no compromise that will allow them to win the primary. Strategically, it's probably the best chance they have, but it's not working and they're dragging the rest of us down the shitter with them. Whereas "bitterness" over the penalty may have been forgotten or cast toward the DNC or state electorate, it appears to me that Clinton has successfully shifted the blame to Obama, despite his repeated attempts to reach a compromise solution. The result has been a shift in support in Clinton in a Clinton vs McCain match up and a loss of support for Obama. This becomes another argument she takes to the supers, but the division is of her own creation. Nevertheless, the longer the dispute continues and she can portray Obama as the bad guy, the more accentuated the result becomes.

[beac]

35. Wish I could rec too, but here's a kick!

[Gman]

38. I have to agree with Ickes

100%. Or else Fl Democrats are told "who cares what you think?"

[RB TexLa]

39. I guess barring Florida Democrats from voting in November would be the beginning of their punishment

if it were up to you.

:crazy:

[madfloridian]

41. oh geez

You found me out.

[RB TexLa]

43. Maybe it's not you, but there has been thread after thread about how they have to be punished.

[RB TexLa]

42. n/t

[papapi]

40. If at first we don't deceive, try, try, try, try, try, try, again..........

.....thanks MF for the continuing insight into this quagmire. Obviously rule makers are fool makers.