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Hillary's "popular vote" argument and "Obamania"

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DanTex Donating Member (734 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 10:49 PM
Original message
Hillary's "popular vote" argument and "Obamania"
Hillary's "popular vote" argument is nonsense. It's fiction, and everyone knows it. I know, I know, there's some phony "debate" going on somewhere on TV where Lanny Davis is saying that "Hillary math" is the fairest way to aggregate the votes, and he's pretending that they've been saying the same thing consistently from the beginning blah blah. I know all about that.

But, in reality, all of these people are well aware that fair is fair, rules are rules, and the way the statewide election results are aggregated nationally is through pledged delegates and not popular vote totals. They understand how it works, and why it's done that way. They agreed to these rules, and they know they agreed to the rules, and they know exactly what it means to "agree" to "rules".

Hillary Clinton knows it, Terry McAuliffe knows it, Howard Wolfson, Lanny Davis, they're smart people, they know she lost the election, fair and square. But, they still want her to be the nominee. Of course, you can't just come out and say "Hillary lost the election, but we still want her to be the nominee". So they came up with the least BS-sounding talking points they could, and they hit the airwaves.

If you say "count all the votes" over and over again really loud, it sounds like you're fighting for democracy. That's the appeal. If you think about it at all, you quickly realize that there's no substance. But if you just stick to your talking points, your "meme" will make it into the media. At that point, logic and reason are out the window, and instead you get into phony debates with people yelling sentence fragments at each other.

Yup, that's the formula. That's what you do when you're trying to make an argument that's at odds with reality. That's how we got into Iraq. That's how you get middle and working class voters to support tax cuts for millionaires. That's how you justify bailing out investment bankers while letting millions of working people lose their homes.

Dumb it down to a level where logic is no longer applicable. Don't even attempt to make a reasoned argument. Just turn the whole thing into a shouting match, and then make more noise than the other side. It's complete, utterly shameless dishonesty.

And that's EXACTLY what Obama supporters are sick of. If you're trying to understand the "Obama phenomenon", look no further. "Obamania", briefly defined, is the belief that it's actually possible to cut through the thick layer of BS that resides between the leaders and citizens of this nation.

Obama is not just saying "if we do this and that, we can maneuver through this swamp of BS and get health-care reform passed". Barack Obama is willing to stand right in the middle of the great BS tornado that is American politics, and say:

Imagine there's no bullshit
It's easy if you try

That's what the "hope" and "change" is about.

See, as long as we're covered from head to toe in BS, we're not going to get where we need to go. Because BS, in and of itself, is harmful to the progressive movement. Progressivism necessarily entails a willingness to think abstractly, to accept subtleties rather than plowing through them with sophistry. We're the ones who undersand that harping on about "WMDs" blurs the distinction between a canister of mustard gas and a hydrogen bomb. We know that there are alternatives besides "appeasment" and aggression. And, yes, we know that assigning 0% of the Michigan delegates to Obama does not accurately represent the will of Michigan democrats.

And that's why cutting through the BS is so important. That's why it's not enough to just take back the White House, but the WAY we take back the White House matters.

And that's why I support Barack Obama.
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Exactly. With the help of the media and her surrogates, Clinton is manufacturing her own reality.
Repeat it often enough, and enough people will believe it. The neocons perfected it, and Clinton is their good student.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Affirmative action extra delegates for Black areas (loyal areas) vs one man one vote -a tough choice
but certainly not "nonsense"
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
20. You offend me.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. I think they also do that for women too.
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. fuckin beautiful mr tex - it must be true that texans have a nose for BS, eh?
k/r
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Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is what I despise about Hillary:
she is bringing Repuke neo-con tactics into our party. She has eagerly drunk from Karl Rove's piss-fountain, and is using his tactics against her own party. Disinformation, obfuscation, anything that can confuse the public and make them think she is being abused. And she couldn't care less what that will do to the party's chances in November. And what makes it even more reprehensible is, she dares to do this in Florida, the very birthplace of the Bush Putsch. Haven't those people been punished enough?
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WillyToad Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. In 2000 and 2004...
Bush stayed 'above the fray' while his supporters attacked and smeared his rivals, all in his name. This is EXACTLY what has been happening with OBAMA supporters, particularily in the left wing media re Randy Rhodes, Keith Olberman..etc.

This forum is a perfect example of it. Obama's supporters are so rabidly abusive that they have driven 90% of Clintons supporters away with their smear campaign against the Clinton family. ROVE perfected this way of running elections:

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/08/28/moore_rove_swift_boat/">Smear Artist

"Aug 28, 2004 | The Bush campaign claims no connections to the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and their mission against John Kerry. It's just one big happy coincidence. Those Republicans just have all the luck. "

snip

"As he was rebuilding the Republican Party in Texas, Rove developed a template for smearing opponents. The goal was to have his candidates hover above the fray while urging their opponents to concentrate on issues, thereby constantly putting them in a position of having to play defense and deny unfounded accusations. Eventually, the Rove client, according to the script, would step out to demand an end to the ugliness. Of course, Rove wrote the narrative of these plans in such a way that calling for a truce would not occur until the damage had already been done to his opposition."


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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. Imagine there's no bullshit
yep, that's it exactly. The Clinton campaign is engaged in the exact political shit we MUST get rid of.

YES WE CAN.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. If all fifty states held open primaries with proportionally awarded delegates
Edited on Wed May-21-08 11:33 PM by rocknation
and ONLY open primaries with proportionally awarded delegates, Hillary's popular vote argument would be at least microscopically intelligible.

:headbang:
rocknation
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grassfed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. so what do we do?
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
9. well hell, since Wisc. HRC has amassed more then 400,000 more
votes then obama......and you obama folks cannot see that he will lose this election because he cannot attract the hard working white folks vote.

I have heard this BS about him going a different route in winning. Someone was in this forum last evening, an obama person showing some chart that showed how obama was going to win, but I had to laugh, NOT at the person who posted but the folks that made the damn forecast. Showed obama losing PA. losing WV, losing Kentucky......(i know is right) but then had obama winning Ohio. Now i was needing a tissue I was laughing so hard.... Oh and obama lost florida.....but way the hell over in the west there was obama winning kansas, nevada and new mexico....

I will say this again if obama is the nominee, on election night if obama loses Pa. you can go on to bed, we lose.

So obama is going to garner in red states to take the place of the old democratic states like pa, west virginia, kentucky and go and get more red states in the dumbfuckistan area of america....Help US!
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. THAT IS A LIE. THAT ARGUMENT DISENFRANCHISES FOUR STATES!
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. In other words, you want to disenfranchise me
Fuck you
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
11. Your short answer is, don't count all the votes.
Snuff out the voices of millions of voters to punish a handful of fat cat party bigwigs.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Oh, their delegates will be seated. Hopefully the superDs from those areas won't.
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mcctatas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Seat the delegates...
the popular vote is the problem, it's another bogus measuring tool from camp clinton. It's kinda funny, last nite a bunch of "it's the popular vote that matters" bs was posted on DU and then *gasp* today hillary gives that speech about it being the popular vote! One thing I will say, you are a disciplined group :puke:
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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
13. No bullshit?
Imagine there's no bullshit
It's easy if you try
No spin all around us
Or leaders telling lies
Imagine all the people
Listening to the truth

Imagine there's no gridlock
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to stand against progress
And no corruption too
Imagine all the people
Making a difference

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope today you'll join us
Thats what hope and change are all about

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
15. You will notice that no one contested the 2000 election based on Gore's win in the popular vote.
Instead we hung on FL because we knew that was what counted.

Hillary is so delusional that she thinks she can make up whatever rules she wants in order to win. What a pathological narcissist...really she needs help.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. There were many people back then who were lobbying for the
electoral college to be reformed.
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DanTex Donating Member (734 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yeah, but nobody was suggesting that it should be reformed retroactively...
...and that Gore should win in 2000 based on the popular vote.

The idea was to reform the electoral college for FUTURE elections.

The rules must be decided upon before the election. You can't change them after the fact.

If you want to reform the way Democratic primaries work, knock yourself out. We can do the 2012 primaries differently. But you don't go back and change the rules of the 2008 primaries after the primaries have already taken place.

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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Wait, I see. You think Hillary and us supporters want to change the
rules so that the popular vote is the trigger that gives the nominee victory.

The popular vote is just one of many arguments that we think the Superdelegates should consider before they make an endorsement.
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mcctatas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Really?
well I still don't agree with the argument, but at least I no longer question your sanity;)
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Well, so far they haven't been
--considering that Clinton started out with 150 superdelegates before a single vote had been cast, and now Obama's leading in SDs.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
16. perhaps I have been a bit naive
I admit that I'm feeling quite stunned by this level of conscious and willful deceit and her willingness to harm the Democratic Party for her own selfish ambition.

I honestly did not expect that of her.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. No one did. Which is why many are in shock.
Double speak. Same as Bush.

Hillary = Bush
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