We can't save you from yourselves

[lsusteel]

I am an independent. I freely admit it. I vote the candidate that I feel will do the best job leading the country. I vote the candidate whose policies most fit the political climate. Whether it's Republican (Bush in 2000) or Democrat (Kerry in 04, Obama in 08), I look at each candidate regardless of their party.

But we cannot save you from yourselves.

The bickering, the infighting, the smears, the attacks, the propagation of Republican talking points...you have to stop.

A lot of you guys don't realize what is at stake here. The case can be made that this election is the last hope for the Democratic party. If Democrats cannot win the White House in a political climate so hostile to Republicans, when can Democrats win? The Republican party is at its lowest in recent history. You MUST take advantage of it.

The Supreme Court is also at stake. For some of you, the makeup of the next Supreme Court will be the makeup you see until you die. For others, the makeup will last the majority of your lives. If you value your civil liberties and the civil liberties of others, how can you justify not voting for the Democratic nominee?

I suggest reading up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_executive_theory - a theory to which Alito subscribes and Mccain's nominees will likely subscribe.

Are you going to be able to look into the eyes of your children and/or grandchildren 20 years from now and explain that your immature grudge is the reason that the constitution you grew up under is nothing more than a chapter in their history books?

Politics are dirty. Mean things are said. Insults are hurled. Feelings get hurt.

But what you Democrats need to realize is that you have FAR more in common with the Democratic nominee than you do with the Republican nominee. If you don't understand that, then exactly what criteria are you using to vote?

You look around at all the polls and you talk about how Obama trails by 5 in Texas and by 1 in Ohio and so on and so forth. But when you look deeper into the polls, you see that the reason for Obama trailing is you. 69% support from Dems in Texas and 65% in Ohio. If the numbers were where they should be - 80 or 85% - Obama would be leading in virtually every battleground state and some states Dems are not supposed to win (such as Texas and Virginia).

Maybe the Republicans have been right about you guys all along. Maybe you guys are weak and cowardly. Anyone who is willing to stay home or vote for their opponent simply because they're a sore loser is a coward in my book. Anyone willing to risk 8 more years of war, death, and destruction just because their candidate got snubbed at a rally is a coward in my book. Anyone willing to risk seeing the most important document in modern world history get ripped to shreds just because their candidate was called a mean name is a coward in my book.

If you don't put your petty grudges aside and suck it up and vote for the candidate from your party, your party will simply be the first casualty of Bush's 3rd term and you can bet your asses it won't be the last.

We can't save you.

The onus is yours.

[rockymountaindem]

1. Well put

We're the only ones holding us back at this point.

[AZBlue]

2. Fantastic post! Welcome to DU!!

:hi:

[redstate_democrat]

3. Excellent commentary.

I wholeheartedly agree. I don't know what's going through the minds of these people. They aren't living in the real world...the world that most Americans are living, at least. There are real problems right now and they can only get worse.

[DerekJ]

4. Great post. Welcome to DU.

[JMDEM]

5. Too bad one of our candidates is a psycho

taking advice from Rove, collaborating with right-wing media moguls, and convincing her supporters that it would be better to destroy the Democratic party than to lose.

[lsusteel]

8. You're part of the problem

Even though Obama is the nominee, you don't need to go unprovokedly rubbing salt in the wounds. I'm guilty of it at times, but it's not necessary. You're treating supporters of a fellow Democrat as if they're enemies.

[JMDEM]

9. The problem is -- many of them are -- openly saying they will drag

us down if they don't get their way. This IS NOT HIDDEN -- it has been repeated throughout the media and the blogosphere for many weeks.

[lsusteel]

10. There are going to be a small few like that in every election

But your goal should be to minimize the damage. Try and break down their wall of stubbornness - don't provide them bricks and dare them to build it higher.

[JMDEM]

17. Okay -- I will try to avoid this. nt.

[The Doctor.]

19. Zen meets Judo.

This is a sight to see.

Good to have you around. You're right... and interestingly enough, I'm not a Democrat either.

We're all here for a reason.

Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[SeattleGirl]

6. Well said, Isusteel

And welcome to DU!

[Andy823]

7. Great points.

And welcome!

[americanstranger]

11. Well put.

Welcome to DU.

Stick around. Common sense like yours is in short supply here.

- as

[John Q. Citizen]

12. Anyone who voted bush in 2000 isn't in much of a position to do political analysis

I can't save you.

Who do you represent? When you say we?

Democrats will vote for the Democrat.

[lsusteel]

14. I represent independents

And love him or hate him now, Bush's 2000 campaign was very appealing to independents like myself.

He specifically campaigned on promises such as:

- No nation building
- Gay marriage (and other social issues) should be left to the states
- Overhaul social security

But he broke virtually every promise he made.

That's neither here nor there.

[John Q. Citizen]

25. Too bad he had to illegally keep black voters in FL. from voting in order to win.

I guess most independents weren't as easily fooled or he might have been able to win without cheating.

How many independents do you speak for?

Just the ones who bush fooled? Or all of them? Were you elected or are you self appointed?

Democrats will vote for the Democrat. That's what Democrats do.

[2008]

39. But ... didn't his shamelessly palpable stupidity at least hint that he might be a bad choice?

I was an independent in 2000, also. I looked at Gore, the professor, and Bush, the class clown, and it was an easy prediction as to which one was likely to ruin the country. Shouldn't it be a given that a viable candidate for president be able to construct and deliver a complete sentence?

[cbc5g]

21. why not?

There are a lot of people who voted for bush in 2000 and even 2004 that are voting obama this time.

[John Q. Citizen]

29. Casting a vote and doing quality political analysis aren't the same things, though.

I know that some people confuse the two, but they are really very different things. I guess I just find it funny and a little more than ironic to read an independent bush voter admonishing others about basic civil liberties, the courts, social security, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to get every vote we can for our nominee, I'm just a little bit amused at seeing what passes for political analysis by a self described "independent," who claims to speak for independents everywhere.

I'm also amused that a self described independent is on Democratic Underground telling Democrats that they have to vote the party line.

I already know that Democrats will vote for the Democrat. The independent doesn't know that, and so thinks they need to tell Democrats to vote for the Democrat, take it from an independent who voted bush.

I notice this independent voter only blames bush, but not their vote, for what happened. It must be wonderful to be so free of responsibility, while telling others what their responsibilities are.

These are just my rambling observations. I really don't care that the OP wants to inform everyone else what their responsibilities are. I just find it funny.

[lsusteel]

30. Hm..

You must not have followed Bush's 2000 campaign. As I said, his campaign promises were very appealing and very civil liberties friendly. Those things he didn't support - such as as gay marriage - he promised to leave up to the states. His behavior in the days (and years) following the election had no effect on my vote because I already voted. However, as I said, I did not vote for him in 2004.

And while you sit there and say "Democrats will vote for Democrats," look around at the polls. 69% support from Dems in Texas; 65% in Ohio. It's like that everywhere.

Your party better come together or it's lights out.

[John Q. Citizen]

33. I followed his campaign, and I also followed his admin in Texas, his prior history and

his dad's history as well. So his campaign was just so much more BS to me. People don't change just because they say some crap in their campaign to fool the rubes.

History says Democrats vote for Democrats. Since approximately 1/3 of the population self identify as Democratric, 1/3 as Repo, and 1/3 as independent, it's apparent to me that it's the party-less people who need to get their shit together.

I suggest you talk to all those people you claim to speak for and get them out to vote for Obama in the fall.

Blaming Democrats for bush and McCain isn't going to cut it. Citing polls taken 5 or 6 months out in the heat of a primary also isn't going to cut it.

Do some research. Look at polling in past elections, taken 5 or 6 months out during a primary, and then compare those results with the actual election results. You will learn something.

[lsusteel]

34. Independents are supporting Obama

In almost every poll I've seen.

And while the bases usually do coalesce, whens the last primary fight as bitter as this one?

[John Q. Citizen]

35. Every contested primary is bitter. Where were you in 04? Independents aren't supporting Obama

to the same degree as Democrats will support the nominee (who is going to be Obama, obviously)

And they need to.

Get to work! You have all these folks you represent, and you need a better margin than just 5 or 10 percentage points!

I want a 25% spread minimum.

By the way, this isn't going to the convention. It will all be over by June 3rd, when MT and SD voters put Obama over the 2025 mark. If it went to the convention, I'd be worried, but that's not in the cards.

[lsusteel]

36. Hmmm

If the same amount of Dems and Repubs support their respective candidate, guess who the race comes down to?

It's about rallying your base. The joy of being an independent is we owe nothing to nobody and are free to vote however we want.

Even a 5% victory among independents is more than enough if you can rally your base.

But if you read the polls, the the reason Obama is trailing is poor support from Democrats. Independents favor Obama so we give him a boost.

I think it's too important of an election to rely solely on crossing your fingers that the base will rally.

I have faith it will, but reiterating the importance can't hurt. If you lose, it won't be because independents don't support you (polls show we do). It will be because the base didn't rally. And if you lose, we all lose.

[John Q. Citizen]

37. Again, polls taken now mean nothing, whether about independents or about

party support.

Polls taken 5 months ago had Clinton winning almost everywhere by 30+ points.

But that's not what happened.

[lsusteel]

38. Polls indicate the current sentiments

And I'm saying the current sentiments need to change.

Do you disagree?

[John Q. Citizen]

41. they will, trust me. But you need to get those Indys out to vote Obama. And down ticket as well

We also need a congress that will support change.

So quit worrying and start working.

Have you done any phone calling yet?

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

13. Kudos Newbie!

100% agree all the way through the thread. Just as there are some Clinton supporters who can't seem to get beyond the hurt and anger and see the big picture, there are still some of us Obama supporters who are still very hurt and angry as well. But, we will come together eventually, maybe not all of us, but, most.

Things are starting to calm down a little bit, I even freed all but 2 "ignored" members! ;)

[davidpdx]

15. It's pretty sad though seeing so called feminists screaming about

not voting for Obama. I'm also getting sick of people claiming Obama is mediocre. If he is so mediocre, then why couldn't someone else beat him in the primaries. I guess when it's all said and done, they are content with President McCain.

[lsusteel]

22. It's up to you to try and mend fences

as much as it is up to Hillary supporters to be amenable to having fences mended.

[Triana]

26. Mediocre my ass. Obama is the best damn thing to happen to this country in DECADES...

...and we had better NOT screw this up or - as the OP said, we only have OURSELVES to blame.

[lsusteel]

27. This is really the Democrats' last chance

If they can't win now, they'll have to go through a major restructuring and rebuilding to compete at a national level. And with a Democratic congress, the zeitgeist is right for a Dem to win.

If you guys don't make it happen by rallying around your nominee, it will be one of the biggest political mistakes in US history and could be the iceberg to this Titanic we call America.

[Triana]

28. It's what I've been thinking - even with all the bickering - HOW can we LOSE this?

With Republicans being hated and having screwed everything up as badly as they have - if we lose this, we're truely LOST - and it will take DECADES for the Dem party to reconstitute - IF it ever can.

If we lose this, it will be because we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory and I worry because Democrats seem to have been pretty good at that the past few years - not that we didn't have outside help - but still - it's worrisome.

[katsy]

16. "We can't save you from yourselves"

Oh I don't know about that. Great post. Hope it opens a few eyes.

Welcome to DU, lsusteel.

:hi:

[Liberal Gramma]

18. Bravo!

The future of the country is way more important than someone's hurt feelings. It would be the height of idiocy to vote against the Democratic nominee because he/she wasn't your first choice. ANY Democrat is better than the Republicans.

[myrna minx]

20. Fantastic post. K&R

:applause:

[tranche]

23. Kick

Nice post. Yes, this election is important and we're acting out like children. Pathetic. If we don't get our shit together by summer deadly pathetic.

[ruby slippers]

24. As a fellow Independent, I completely agree with you. Stop and take

a breath and ask yourselves, these outside people can help us, but we have to help ourselves first. It is time that you all come together and realize that Barack is your best choice.

[Tatiana]

31. AMEN! Thanks for the dose of SANITY. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. Best Post I've Read In GDP Since The Primary Started. Big K And Fuckin R For Ya.

:toast:

[ShortnFiery]

40. And if you LIE and CHEAT your way to A WIN. Well, That's the AMERICAN WAY?!?

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[ShortnFiery]

42. p.s.

FUCK THE REPUBLICANS AND THEIR RACIST AND BIGOTED ATTACKS.

I will NOT become THEM. :grr: :nuke:

[specimenfred1984]

43. Go post on "IndependentUndergroud"

I hear they love REPIGS over there.

[RainDog]

44. What do you do when a nominee refuses to concede that she has lost?

and please do not tell me I am part of the problem because what I just said is the crux of the problem.

Clinton cannot win based upon currently set DNC primary rules. Therefore, she wants to change the rules to suit herself. If this doesn't remind you of George W. you weren't paying attention in Nov. 2000.

However, rather than tell those of us on this board about the democratic party, why don't you go to the guys in KY who said they wouldn't vote for a black guy, yet live in abject poverty and ask them why they vote against their economic interests because they have a greater stake in being a racist?

How about talking to the fundamentalists (tho they are one and the same among the racists) who vote with the republicans, against their economic self interest -- because the fundies dangle the abortion issue every election (and purposely did not deliver, if you noticed, even when they controlled the executive and legislative branches and had the power to do so. GWB wouldn't even appear with them!)

It's crazy to me that this nation is, frankly, retarded when it comes to social issues compared to every other western democracy. That's not the fault of the democrats. Go ask those "Reagan democrats" how voting against their economic self interest worked out since Reagan started all the union busting and off-shoring for jobs. Tell them to get off their asses and vote for a democrat.

[calmblueocean]

45. What are you talking about? Independents decide every pres. election.

We're a nation of about 1/3rd Republicans, 1/3rd Democrats, and 1/3rd independents. The campaign that wins the most independent voters wins, period.

If you're worried that Democrats won't be unified coming out of the convention, you may be less in touch with us than you think.