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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:56 PM
Original message
A Woman of Independent Thought
Over the course of the primary process, we have been “treated to” the outcries of a number of women (alleged Democrats) who see the inevitable recognition of Barack Obama as our party’s nominee as being unfair, illegitimate, and unconscionable simply because he is not Hillary; i.e. not a female.

And now a number of them are promising to make good on their threat to vote for McCain, or not vote at all (same dif) because their candidate-of-choice will not be the nominee.

The irony of such action cannot be missed. While touting themselves as forward-looking, liberated females, they fail to notice that they are acting the part of the "stereotypical woman" as portrayed in every ‘50s sitcom, the sniveling female who packs her bags and “goes home to mother” when it becomes apparent she is not going to get her own way.

This particular group of Hillary-supporting Stepford voters, while talking about equality for all women, apparently don’t believe in the equality of presidential candidates, regardless of gender. They do not accept the fact that their candidate lost the nomination because her opponent garnered more delegates as being a satisfactory explanation – in other words, the playing field should have been rendered unequal in whatever ways necessary to ensure that Hillary emerged as the nominee – and the majority of voters who caused the outcome to be otherwise be damned.

They grasp at any straw that seems viable from one minute to the next – the popular vote, the electoral vote, the performance in swing states, the inclusion of MI and FL after their own candidate pledged they would not be counted – in a never-ending attempt to justify the contention that their candidate is being shoved to one side because she is a woman, and for no other reason.

In other words, by their way of thinking, a woman should have the right to compete with a man on an equal footing. However, when she is losing based on that equality, the rules should be changed to favor her position when necessary.

They carry on incessantly about trivialities like Sweetie-gate being a sound reason to walk away from the party in utter outrage, oblivious to the plight of the real victims of sexism in our society – the women who are offered employment at lower salaries than would be paid to a man in the same position, or women coerced into accepting actual sexual harassment in the workplace as a means of going along to get along.

It is also of note that these women are more than willing to ignore not only the consequences of another Republican administration to the nation as a whole (especially in light of the past disastrous eight years), but what impact such an administration could have on women’s reproductive rights, along with their right to be recognized as equal citizens in all facets of their lives.

Those things are of no importance to these women who, while pretending to hold high the banner of the liberated, independent-thinking, 21st Century female, encourage those of their gender to think, act, and vote as a group, dismissive of any semblance of independent thought or true liberation.

We have heard, ad naseum, that these women are willing – nay, even hopeful – that a Democratic loss this November will serve as the ultimate ”I told you so”. And if their fellow females, their daughters, or their fellow citizens must suffer the consequences of their stubbornness, so be it.

You see, according to these women, it’s all about making a point; it’s about sending a message to the powers-that-be in the Democratic party.

And that point and that message are one and the same: “Give me what I want, or I’ll stomp my feet, cry like Lucy Ricardo being denied a new hat, and pack my bags and leave.”

I’m here to tell these women that I would be more than happy to help you pack.

I just hope you have a suitcase large enough to accommodate your bruised ego, your lack of comprehension as to what this election is all about, your illogical logic that the nomination should have been handed over to your candidate because it’s a woman’s turn, your lack of empathy towards your fellow citizens, your baseless nonsensical assertions that things like a Hillary Nut-Cracker cost your candidate the nomination, and your ridiculous accusations that a woman can’t make it in a male-dominated party despite the fact that she came in second in a male-dominated race for the nomination.

For the record, I am not willing to acquiesce to what amounts to political blackmail couched as “concern” for a woman’s right to the presidency, nor kowtow to a bunch of idiots who are willing to be led-by-the-nose to a place where no real woman would ever go.

So feel free to call me, if and when you require someone to help slam that suitcase shut – all twelve of you who are dumb enough to think you are actually doing something worthwhile.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. you're first sentence is complete and utter bullshit and condescending. nt
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Hisssssssssss......
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. You're not bitter
I'm not butter
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. And I like to respond to my own posts
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
185. I know how you can save 100% on your long distance bill.
:-)
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
57. Parkay!
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Oldtimeralso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #57
97. Use Imperial and be crowned!
No wait we already have one imperial family, 41,43,& now there surrogate contender.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. and it shows a complete lack of understanding of what the real issue is. nt
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. And what, pray tell ...
... is the real issue? That being a woman, Hillary was owed the nomination? That it was a woman's turn to be the nominee? That all women should have supported her because she's a woman, dismissing all other considerations?

I'm really interested in hearing what the real issue is.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
182. Well...
That is what I heard last week from a very respected and connected NJ Woman Dem With Real Juice and Hillary Supporter. Pretty much those exact words, and that Obama was anti-woman's issues. Seeing as how I respect, and yes, love this woman like family, I was most distressed.

Somewhere along the way, some heads are being filled with some very malignant thoughts. Oh, to be a fly on the wall in some rooms...
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
64. You mean it disagrees with your bias.
The piece shows an AMAZING grasp of the real issues -- and that's plural, not singular.


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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
175. Still thinking?
We're all ears.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
203. Really, the suspense is killing me... please fill us in on the mystery of the
'real issues'.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Details?
Or do they, like logic, escape you?
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. There are many reasons besides:
Edited on Mon May-19-08 07:12 PM by MassDemm
"Over the course of the primary process, we have been “treated to” the outcries of a number of women (alleged Democrats) who see the inevitable recognition of Barack Obama as our party’s nominee as being unfair, illegitimate, and unconscionable simply because he is not Hillary; i.e. not a female."

I don't support obama for many reasons and the reason you stated is not even on the list. And for you to make assumptions why people support someone vs another is mighty presumptuous.

Also, that sentence underscores your complete incompetence to recognize sexism when it is screaming at you in your face. But because people point out sexism, whether you see it or not, does not mean that is the reason they are not voting for Barack and will only vote for a woman. Obama has got his own problems. To take one issue(sexism) and turn it into some kind of argument so you can poo poo it is disingenuous. The more you insist that sexism is not in play in this election, only goes to show how biased you are for your candidate. Stop making excuses and assumptions would be my advice.


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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. When I see posts here that talk about ...
... women leaving the party, or voting for McCain, or sitting out the election entirely because Hillary is not the nominee, that is NOT an assumption - it is based on what I have read here, and elsewhere, over and over again.

"To take one issue (sexism) and turn it into some kind of argument so you can poo poo it is disingenuous."

I am not the one who poo-poohs the argument that sexism exists - but I do dismiss the notion that sexism is the cause of Hillary's failure to secure the nomination - simply because it is utter BS, and the last refuge of those who refuse to accept that she lost based on other criteria.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. you assume they are doing that because they will only vote for a woman. weak nance, weak. nt
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. They have blatantly said this IS the reason ...
Should I now call all of them liars for having said so?
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. who on DU and when has anyone said they will only vote for hillary because she is a woman.
Edited on Mon May-19-08 07:30 PM by MassDemm
if you find a couple, it's a minority and for you to judge an entire group of people is just sad, to score cheap points.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
62. You're right ...
... they are a minority. But as recently as last night, they were touted as being "in the millions" by one DU poster.

And don't ask for a link - I'm not about to be TS'ed for 'calling out' a fellow DUer. But a glance at what was on the Greatest Page late last night will lead you in the right direction ...
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Fedja Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #32
112. I've seen quite a few myself
What strikes me as stunning is that nobody called these few out on being sexist. In my book, voting for a woman based (or influenced) by her gender is just as sexist as not doing so. The fight for equality is a very sensitive one, and once someone takes it so far as to cross the center line, they become no better than those they fight against.

But hey, I shouldn't be telling you, you're a Hillary supporter today because she has a chance. Right?
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #32
155. Apparently you missed the part where Nance describes the ones she's talking about...
You see, the OP is directed at a specific group of women, not all women. Reading comprehension can assist you with making those kinds of determinations.

Let's hear it from you, right now;

Will you vote for Barack Obama in November?

Don't try to be cute and dodge the question. It's important to know; are you one of the people she's talking about? If you are not, then you really have no reason to find offense here. If you are then your opinion on the matter is pretty much worthless, and you fit the bill and deserve the insult.

So, are you going to be a grown-up in November?
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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #25
127. Hillary supporters have been asked repeatedly to give
SPECIFIC reasons for why they support her and they haven't been able to do so without bashing Obama. They blame HIM for rampant sexism, a la Geri Ferraro, but cannot give intelligent reasons for why we ought to support Hillary.
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lucky leftie Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #22
148. You're assuming...
...that all the women who threaten to vote for McCain are doing so for reasons of gender? There's no proof ot that.

And please explain what metric enables you to state unequivocally that the sexism that has permeated the coverage of this primary hasn't cost Clinton the nomination? How do you measure the impact of something like that? Please enlighten us.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #148
181. You've made my point for me.
How do you measure the impact of sexism on Hillary's campaign?

Apparently today's HRC talking point is all about how sexism has permeated this campaign season, and how it has negatively impacted her.

How did SHE measure it? Maybe SHE can enlighten you.

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lucky leftie Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #181
205. Nice try...
...but we're talking about your statements, not Hillary's. It's your job to substantiate your claims, and clearly, you can't. Basically, you believe that "sexism hasn't hurt Clinton" because that's what you want to believe.

I think most reasonable people would agree that negative, biased media coverage is undesireable. For instance, many democratic pundits (eg. Eric Alterman) believe that the media's fostering of the "Gore the Liar" narrative eroded his support. The bias against Hillary Clinton has taken the form of offensive gender-based smears. Only a fool would dismiss this as inconsequential. What if the media targets a democratic female that you happen to support next time? I'm certain your howls of protest will wake the dead.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #205
206. No, it's not MY job to substantiate claims of sexism ...
... because I'm not the one saying my campaign has been negatively impacted by same.

The onus of proof is on the person making the claim, not the other way around.

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lucky leftie Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #206
210. You are the one saying-
"-but I do dismiss the notion that sexism is the cause of Hillary's failure to secure the nomination - simply because it is utter BS..."

How is it "BS?" Do you deny that the media has engaged in dismissive, demeaning gender-based attacks? They are documented, on sites like dailyhowler.com and mediamatters.com. I won't waste space listing them here.

Like so many other Obama supporters, you seem willing to tolerate these attacks because it's politically expedient. Way to stand up for progressive values! Down with prejudice (unless it's directed at a candidate I don't like.)

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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #210
212. Do you seriously believe ...
... that Hillary lost the nomination solely based on sexism?

She started this race as the sole female candidate. How did she manage to get to the second-place position? Did the rampant sexism just kick-in lately?

There are people who will never vote for a woman. There are also people who will never vote for a black man - nor a Morman, a Scientolgist, a Jew, a gay man or a lesbian.

That's not pretty - it's just the facts.

Hill's campaign has been a disaster. People turned on her because of her statements and her behavior - from her 'kitchen sink' strategy, to her lies about Bosnia sniper-fire, to her inability to plan beyond Super Tuesday, to her changing of the goalposts every two minutes.

THOSE are the things that have cost her support. Not the fact that she's female.

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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
135. You didn't answer the question. And of course we are going to answer
the sexism charge when it is raised because it is a very serious accusation.

Just for one day I'd like to see Hillary and her supporters stop making excuses and assumptions. First, I'd like to see all the lame excuses for why Hillary doesn't have the larger number of delegates stop. Next, I'd like you to stop assuming that someone who doesn't have the greater number of delegates must have been cheated in some way.

Despite the myriad of excuses y'all have come up with in your attempt to martyr Hillary, she has lost. Obama has won twice the states that she has, and he has more delegates. That's the bottom line no matter how much smoke you attempt to blow around it.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #18
144. Oh for god's sake
Sexism AND racism are BOTH in play in this primary process, OK?

But I would venture to say that racism is an even bigger issue than sexism is. Look at West Virginia, for example. It's not just little pockets of people who refused to vote for one person over another for whatever their reasons were...it was virtually an entire STATE. Mostly white. Had the percentages been a little closer, I'd be more inclined to believe it was not about race.

And had there been three choices instead of two, one of them a white man, I would bet that the woman and the black man would have been blown out like nobody's business. But there were only two on the ballot (as far as I know) and apparently the voters of WV felt, in a large majority, that a white woman was way less objectionable than a (gasp!!! bring the children in, BettySue, there's a NEGRO on the loose) black man.

And as far as assertions to the contrary that no Hillary supporter is saying they'll either not vote or vote for McCain if their woman isn't the Chosen One, I've seen it, in various places. Mainly from women. Now why would that be, I wonder???

I've also seen it from the other side, although not here on DU....Obama supporters who vowed to either not vote, or to vote for McCain if Hillary were nominated. Mainly white men and women.

Oh, and BTW...I'm a white woman...55 years old...who would like to see a woman in the White House just as much as any other woman would. But I do not care for her policies and I do not care for her attitude.

Maybe you personally aren't supporting Hillary out of a sense of loyalty to the female gender, but there are indeed many out there who are...and to insist that this is not the case is the height of denial.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
167. What sexism?
Sorry to interject here at this late date, but, as a Kucinich supporter, I don't have a dog in this fight. I grew up raised by a single mom in the '50s who faced real discrimination in finding a job, housing, and establishing credit on her own. These are the real feminist issues, imho. What exactly was Clinton denied because of her gender?
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katerinasmommy Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #167
183. My Mom Was In the Same Boat
She can't stand Clinton and finds the women of her own age whining about a candidate who got to where she got on her husband's coattails quite annoying. She didn't have a influential rich guy helping her, she made it on her own.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #183
187. welcome to DU!
Yep. I'm hoping we have a strong woman candidate for President in all the next primaries where we don't have an incumbent running. There are plenty of strong women out there that should run next time.
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katerinasmommy Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #187
194. Thanks!
I too am looking forward to a strong female candidate. In fact I think it's past time we had a QUALIFIED woman, i.e., a woman who is a real feminist who didn't look to be the power behind the throne first. That's the sort of role model I want my daughter to follow. She's already had a strong one in her Gramma, but she can't have too many!
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madmunchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
173. You know the op wasn't even in the Obama camp until pretty recently
Edited on Tue May-20-08 12:55 PM by madmunchie
So I would think that their decision was made for reasons like so many of us share who went to Obama after much thought - not some superficial knee-jerk reaction.

The fact is that many "women" are supporting HRC just as many "blacks" are supporting Obama for reasons mainly to do with race and/or gender. That is the world that we live in and those are the facts and to anybody threatening to go to the Repubs because their candidate isn't going to legitimately get the nomination shows the lack of depth and the lack of understanding that they have in what this election is truly about. If they are going to have a retaliatory reaction to their candidate legitimately losing the primary, than they were the type of people that probably supported Bush.

I mean, after all, if not getting your candidate to win in the primary leads you to support a Bush 3rd term then I hope you volunteer for Iraq and I hope that you send your kids there and I hope that you have enough backbone to put your money where your vote is.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
44. Your subject line only posts are complete & utter bullshit
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
48. It does seem to be that way. You don't think so? What about Ferraro's statements...
that Obama is where he is only because he is Af. American? That if he were a woman, he would not be where he is? That's a gender statement, right? A racial statement, right? Not a "his healthcare program is shit" argument, or anything substantive.

The posts in this forum repeatedly claim that Hillary is losing primarily because she's a woman, and other people who report on her, or vote for Obama, are sexist.

I wasn't looking for these statements. But they are there. Repeatedly.
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KSinTX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
58. First sentence true. *Stepford voters* condescending.
I say enough of all this infighting. It has really grown tiresome. Just parked here to post when I was the MassDem. How are things up there?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
63. MassDemm, quite frankly, I think it's dead-on accurate, and you
won't accept it because you know it's the prevailing sentiment among those voters caterwauling about "sexism" and how much of a victim Hillary Clinton is.

In really top-drawer writing and analysis, the writers culls potent threads of multilpe and various material and creates a top platform in the essay. The finished piece, structurally, is the capital letter 'I' -- an Ionian column.

Nance Greggs' pieces on DU have that structure.

If you have an objection to talent, I would say that's your problem.

If you want to discuss the points the OP has raised, no one's stopping you.
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #63
88. Back to the Pepsi symbol avatar, eh?
Sorry, couldn't help it....did you read Kristen's diary today?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kristen-breitweiser/you-broke-it-you-own-it_b_101673.html

Damn good independent thinker she is :D

:hi:
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. She prompts my memory of Richard Clarke's apology to the women
surviving spouse group aftr the 9/11 attacks.

Dr. Rice more or less showed Clarke the door.

Clarke, at the Senate hearing, showed those woman some class and integrity.

She's a bright soul. I could see her in the U.S. Congress, no problem.


:hi:
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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
86. hey sweetie
it's "your" not "you're"
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
121. I've just called 922, the whaambulance is on it's way to your house
don't worry, help is coming!
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nongrata Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
165. What is "complete and utter" bullshit, anyway?
I know what bullshit is. We all get that. But what is "complete" bullshit? For that matter, can anyone give me an example of "incomplete" bullshit? Are we talking about the waste product before the bull has fully digested his feed, while the substances are still on their journey through the animal's intestinal tract? This raises an additional philosophical inquiry -- at what point in time does bullshit actually come into existence? Is it bullshit before being expelled from the animal's anus? And further, what is "utter" bullshit? When used as an adjective, is "utter" anything more than a pejorative intensifier? If you don't mind my saying so, to write "your first sentence is bullshit" is actually much stronger than to say "your first sentence is complete and utter bullshit." The pejorative intensifiers don't really add anything, other than to give us some idea of the author's mental state. Particularly when used in the conjunctive, the alleged intensifiers are, in fact, redundant, are they not? I could say that your sentence it complete and utter, total, asinine, fuckacta, bullshit, eeyi-eeyi-o, but I feel it would be much better said, "your sentence is bullshit."
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #165
189. an example of "incomplete" bullshit
The bowel movement after eating whole corn!
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nongrata Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #189
227. okay, thanks, but
it leaves the question open, is that partially undigested corn also "bullshit?" You know, like the old joke, do you know what that white stuff is in pigeon shit? No. What is it? Pigeon shit!
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm available to assist with packing as well. K&R
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. Powerful. n/t
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. I say, fuck them
Again, fuck them.

Enough of this "reaching out" to selfish lunatics. Go ahead, and vote for McCain. There's another bus over here, and you're now under it.

If McCain wins with your help, fine. America gets what it deserves, just like it did in 2004.

Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran.
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Holly_Hobby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. Do you think.....
Feminism taught women to be successful, but not how to fail? Just a thought.
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pdxprog Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. I doubt it
The road to most successful women's success is paved with plenty of failures.

I believe it's more likely life didn't teach Hillary Clinton how to fail.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Interesting question...
I'm a white male, so my opinion probably have the least perceived legitimacy here, but I think you raise a very interesting question.
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Holly_Hobby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. I'm 52, not that much younger than Hillary
There were no sports for girls back then. School sports revolved around sports for boys. I think sports teaches one how to lose gracefully. Just another thought.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
61. Oh, kind of CRAP is that?
Feminism isn't about being "successful" or
knowing how to "fail"!

It's about LIVING as equals.

Jeez!
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
67. Feminism, IMO, counts among its glories the sustaining vision of
Edited on Mon May-19-08 08:44 PM by Old Crusoe
affirmation nurtured by women in the day-to-day world of their lives despite the failings of male-dominated and war-centric culture around them.

It's my personal view that Hillary Clinton is a career success but not a feminist success.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
82. Everyone gets a chance to fail - many times.
No one has a corner on it. No one gender has a corner on it. I can't speak for all feminists of course but I think we are just ready to break to the next level. It won't happen with Senator Clinton - though she has carved away a lot of the dreck keeping women out of the White House. Her work with this campaign will make the trip to the WH all that much easier for the next female candidate.

Feminism, for me, has taught me incredible patience and hope in the resiliency of the female of the species.
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pdxmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thank you Nance. You put into words what I've been feeling. N/T
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panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. Rec'd because this issue is important.
It's also BS. I never perceived any anti-feminism in Obama's campaign, or personal life. mccain, on the other hand.........., why would any woman vote for a man planning to end legal abortions? A man who dumped his loyal wife to marry one who could bankroll his political ambitions?
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. Equal means equal...even if you lose...and ambitions are second to the party...
This is an important lesson. I think its a good one. More importantly though, whenever a candidate decides that their personal cause is larger than the party, this is a bad sign. Hillary clearly has decided that - that somehow her campaign will give more meaning to her base of support. In reality, we all know it gives meaning to Hillary - she wants the total popular vote total even though she knows it doesn't change things.

Why then does she want the total popular vote count? Does this help the party? Will this help Obama in November? I don't think so...
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Lucky 13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. You might need this.
Bon Voyage

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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
17. K & R and a hug for Nance
Thank you, lady!
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
19. Another helpful post chock full of good will and unity
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. I have no desire to be ...
... "unified" with those who believe that voting for McCain is a viable alternative to voting for the Democratic nominee.
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #24
138. Me neither
It's irreconcilable logic to think you cannot vote for any other Dem this fall if you support HRC for her Democratic principles and if you support equal rights for women. But, then again, perhaps that's the problem. Perhaps they're not voting for HRC because they believe in what she believes in or in equal rights for women. Perhaps they're voting for her because she's a woman and nothing more.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Self-delete ...
Edited on Mon May-19-08 08:05 PM by NanceGreggs
Accidental double-post.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. They are "trolls" planted to get the Activist Liberal Blogosphere into Frenzy!
Why do you and others here in GDPolitic's Forum pay so much attention to them...ignoring the sincere folks who really do see some worth in a Hillary Candidacy? :shrug:
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. I also believe that much, not all, of it is fake.
I pay attention because it is curious. It's like getting the "Do you have Prince Albert in a can?" prank phone call over and over- without the subsequent onset of disbelief.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. Maybe many of them are saying things like that now, in May, because they're pissed off
and they really have no intention of voting for McCain. And will come around quicker if not derided and harangued. Maybe the answer is to leave them alone and let them regroup and come to their senses on their own.

Just a random thought.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. But, when you have 'organized' groups, such as
Clinton Supporters Count Too, going on Faux News, declaring their intentions to a) actively work against Obama, and b) vote for McSame, it is an indicator that it's not just DUers who have lost their goddamn minds. I mean seriously, that's insane.

Fwiw, if it were the other way around, I'd feel the same way if Obama supporters were pulling that crap. Fucking insane.

Ymmv.

:)
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #43
76. ha ha they sure got you in a tizzy
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #38
52. You are probably right. nt
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #38
93. I agree.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #38
117. Leave them alone when the are "demanding" that Hillary be P or VP?
Edited on Tue May-20-08 05:10 AM by JTFrog
Yes. DEMANDING. As the Stepford republicans put it here on DU yesterday.

Demanding that Hillary be on the ticket or their votes goes to McCain. The same ones that brag about putting their Vote For Hillary buttons on their altars.

Not a single one of them are saying leave me alone and let me regroup. They went straight to "if we vote for McCain" Hillary has another shot in 2012.

Maybe the answer is for them to grow the fuck up.

It's like the poster who dismissed a female Obama supporter because women are always "acting against their best interest" and says this as she's posting that she's gonna vote for McCain!

Batshit fucking crazy belongs in the other party.

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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #38
147. I think that many
...certainly NOT the majority....of Obama supporters on this site...(and perhaps the OP is one) need to learn how to win gracefully.

I have been astonished at the vileness and the hatred directed not only at both Senators, but SPEWED at the Clinton supporters here.

I have stated my intention to work actively for Senator Obama IF he becomes the official nominee of the Democratic Party. I have posted responses to the few supporters of Senator Clinton who declare they will not vote for him.

They are not alone, by the way. There are many who have...even before Senator Obama gained this upper hand in the process, who have emphatically stated the will never, ever, vote for Senator Clinton under any circumstances.

There are very few who support Senator Clinton soley based on her gender. I stated to a colleague months ago that, given the fact that both of the current candidates are eminently qualified, and because they are so very close to each other on the issues, I choose to support Senator Clinton, for as long as she is in the race, because it is time for a woman. NOT SOLELY BASED ON HER GENDER. That is crap, and I think the OP knows it. If she doesn't, then she is not as smart as I suspect she is.

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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #147
239. She's a Smart
Edited on Tue May-20-08 08:52 PM by Crisco
Propagandist for DU. If that's all you ask of one, that will do very well.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
42. He's right Nance
You should coddle the mentally ill people that you reference. WE NEED THEIR VOTES!!1!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #42
53. You think that folks you think are "mentally ill" will give Obama their vote?
Edited on Mon May-19-08 08:05 PM by KoKo01
and...this post of Nance's is addressed to some anonymous folks out there in the blogosphere that Karl Rove and Limbaugh sent out to pretend they are HILLARY voters saying if HILLARY doesn't become the nominee they won't vote for Obama?

Haven't we Dems seen these Rovian/Coulter/Limpballs/Faux Network tactics BEFORE?

Going at "fellow DU'ers" to get to some mythical vast group of Hillary supporters who say they will vote for McCain or stay home in November...seems kind of a round about way to reach an audience. Much as I love Nance's posts...she's off the mark here. She's looking for broader circulation amongst Broader Liberal Blogosphere and then to penetrate the Freeper Trolldome out there on the "Internets." I just get annoyed that it seems to start out here for the attack rather than out there (in the sites I mentioned) where it truly belongs. :shrug:
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #42
55. Printer Friendly showed me one of them responded
:rofl:
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
20. Breathtaking! Needed to be said Nance. Thank you! K&R
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evilkumquat Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
23. I Am Reminded of the "Christian" Coalition's Hatred of McCain...
...and their threats to not vote, or vote Democrat, just to send a message to the GOP: "Ignore our demands at your peril. We put you in power; we can take it away."

Granted, as wonderful as it would be, we all know they are lying and would put a checkmark next to a "D" only if their pen slipped while fumbling with the keys to their chastity belt, trying to frantically masturbate to images of burning witches that flit ceaselessly through their sweaty minds.

Likewise, deep down, even the most rabid of Hillary supporters will probably bite their lips, swallow the bile rising to the back of their throat, and cast their ballot for Obama when the time comes.

Most Obama supporters would do the same for Hillary if their roles were reversed.

I know I would.

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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
45. Funniest. Post. Ever.
:rofl:
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
27. Nance Hits it Out the Park Again
You're so money.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
29. These primaries are personal, and emotional.
I'm a democratic voter. My opinion of whom best fits the ideals of what a democratic candidate is the job of the primary voteres. After the primary, we should all rally be hind the winner.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
31. Sure, there's no misogyny in the Obama camp.
Edited on Mon May-19-08 07:29 PM by Jamastiene
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Despite my utter disdain for you, I know you can do better than
citing one DUer with 6 posts. I mean, really.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. And there is no racism in the Hillary camp.
Your point being - exactly WHAT?
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. So are you saying this poster is a member of the Obama campaign? Proof? or is this...
just more slime and irresponsible spewing? Ferarro's doing it, so why not you?
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
47. I see your low-post sexist idiot and raise you a 1,000+ post racist idiot:
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #47
143. holy cow!
My ignore list is getting fatter every day. But I'm never ashamed to add racist idiots to the list.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
33. What you said.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
39. Independent thinking is not valued by the Democratic Party.
As evidence, see what happens when a Democrat thinks independently from the party about issues and candidates.

There is an outcry demanding loyalty oaths.

I believe the same thing you refer to happens when a black voter doesn't prefer Obama.

The craving for group identity, the propensity for group think, and the gang/posse/cliquish behaviors surrounding group membership and identity is evident no matter what group you care to look at. It isn't unique to women or to the Clinton campaign.
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Terri S Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
40. K & R !!!
What can I say, Nance...


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Irishonly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
41. K&R
There have been so many journals posted about older boomer women afraid they will never see a woman president. I am 55 and I say it's BS. I am not about to vote for a candidate for president just because the candidate is a woman. It's a pretty flimsy reason to vote for someone. There have been cries of sexism while racism has been ignored. Senator Obama had to put up with being asked if he were black enough, there's a Curious George t-shirt being sold and how many times has he been called boy. He didn't whine although I admit I have done my fair share of it.

You read about women organizing groups to actively campaign against Obama and would vote for McCain. Again it's BS. This isn't the year to cast a protest vote. You cannot call yourself a feminist if you are willing to put women's rights in the hands of a republican. The SCOTUS is at stake. We have to put up with Booosh's appointments for years. I would like to have a court that doesn't want to trash the constitution let alone, Roe V Wade.

My mother used to say some things made her so shit she could mad all over. Every time I read about women blaming sexism or manipulate results to make their candidate appear to be winning I know what she meant.:P
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
49. Excellent Post - needed to be said.
Thank you.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
50. Love ya
You speak for me in your sentiments.

This period reminds me of living in a bad marriage
I hope gets a mediator or a divorce lawyer soon, there is too much at stake.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
51. Condesending, ignorant, bs.
No credibility.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. Well, I'll just sit here waiting ...
... for your detailed post as to exactly how the OP is condescending ignorant BS - or are we all meant to just take your word for it, and move on?
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. this theme has been posted and debunked on DU numerous times
you set up a false premise and then attack Clinton and her supporters to knock down your fake argument.

It has been debunked so many times that apparently you are choosing to ignore the facts for faux writing.
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DerekJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #60
99. Nothing has been debunked!!! You think it has been debunked, but the counter arguments
were either weak or made no sense.
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DerekJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #99
190. kick
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #60
156. What has been "debunked"? It's a simple fact that Clinton supporters
have announced that they 'will not vote for Obama'.

What are you saying specifically is wrong with the OP?

I'm used to you bailing, let's have some answers this time.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #51
66. Any number of us would welcome a post by you with a 10th of the
clarity and insight of this OP.

I don't hear you citing objections to the author's points.

In analysis on a political forum, that would be standard procedure.
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #66
92. Ah Shit EE Is Fueled By Some Strange Venom.
I haven't put her on ignore because she is a comedian. Her routine consists of bullshit layered on bullshit. Quite amusing. I love that she has taken on Nance. Talk about being out of ones league. Oy. EE slings some of the best bullshit hash on DU.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #92
142. Thanks Binka...
the venom stems from the betrayal I feel from DU. I thought it was a place with progressives who had like ideals. When the sexist awful BS started on DU I first just chalked it up to a few. But, I see that DU has become as bad as any right-wing site in its us-versus-them hate.

I see now that there are very few progressives on DU. When people applaud to threads like this, that are akin to binding your own feet, I realize that progressives have left the building.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #142
157. Examples please.
Oh right, you don't have any... it's almost like I keep forgetting.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #142
218. I'm sorry you feel that way. Then as has been suggested elsewhere in
this thread, what are the specific objections you have to the OP?

Clearly, quite a few people liked it. Check out the view total, for instance.

Is it really your position that people who disagree with your assessment of Clinton's campaign are right-wing hate mongers?

I'm sorry, that's very thin gruel for a hungry conversation.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #66
139. Old Crusoe, the "analysis" on this post is nothing but condesending
attacks and you know it.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #139
159. Be specific. Pick one of the statements, and explain how it is 'condescending'.
I've learned not to hold my breath... you never seem to answer.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #139
230. EE, we can go point by point if you like.
I stand by my assertion that the OP is an example of outstanding writing and insightful analysis.

Seriously. Stop caterwauling and let's talk turkey. I suggest as a starting point the arrogance of the Clinton campaign in thinking they simply did not have to have a pan in place to contest any state post Feb. 5th.

The reason I think that would be a useful starting place is that once you can acknowledge that as a hard fact, which it is, you will have to defend the attitude that produced it.


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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #51
106. Ah, when you can't spell "condescending"
good times

:rofl:
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
54. This post is a very, very bright light.
So beautifully done.

Recommended.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
56. Nailed it again, Nance!
You, unlike Hillary, speak for me, Sister. :toast:
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amb123 Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
65. The NEW Hillary Clinton Campaign Meme:
Edited on Mon May-19-08 08:51 PM by amb123
"We must DESTROY the Democratc Party in order to SAVE it from THE MAN!"

The NEW Hillary Clinton Campaign Cheer:

(voice of a two-year old) "MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE!"

On target as usual, Nance. I salute you for your independent thought.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
68. Fantastic post - it's how I feel exactly. Thank You.
Edited on Mon May-19-08 08:42 PM by sparosnare
I feel as if we're being forced by vengeful Hillary supporters to bow to their wishes in order to get their votes. All because they're pissed.

If they're willing to stay home and allow McCain to become president knowing what might (probably WILL) happen to the supreme court, they're idiots.

:toast:
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
69. I'm skeptical, Nance. Does anyone have some quotes to prove the basic assertion?
Edited on Mon May-19-08 08:58 PM by Perry Logan
I'd just like to see some quotes, get some names, hear some numbers on the women who feel Obama's nomination will be "unfair, illegitimate, and unconscionable simply because he is not Hillary." I find it frankly incredible that a Democratic woman would think in such a blatantly irrational way, just because her candidate lost the nomination.

I understand this is not a scholarly forum. And I'm not trying to give anyone a homework assingment.

But much of what people say about the Clintons seems to be stuff they made up. When it comes to the Clintons, no one seems to feel they have to back up anything. I guess fifteen years of incontinent slander from the Right has lowered our standards when it comes to this much-maligned clan.

So I wonder if anyone here has something to ground the discussion. Otherwise we're just beating up on the Clinton people some more.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. I have no desire nor intent ...
... to 'beat up' the Clinton people. Hillary has some truly dedicated and passionate supporters, on this board and elsewhere, who have consistently been a credit to her campaign.

I am merely focusing on those who hold themselves out as Hillary supporters who are, in fact, "a woman nominee at any cost" supporters - and at this point in the procedure, most of us know who they are.

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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Thanks, Nance. Could someone please give me some more information?
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. So you are hoping to get Nance to post crap to make your crappy point?
Do your own homework and post whatever it is that you want to say.



:argh:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lucky leftie Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #73
153. No.
The author is making assertions, and it is her job to substantiate them. Otherwise, it may be assumed that she pulled them put of a certain orifice.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #71
110. Glad to.
This OP did not spring from my over-active imagination, nor was it crafted out of whole cloth.

We have repeatedly seen posts here by so-called Hillary supporters on this topic. In the past three days (just by way of recent example), I have been 'warned' by other posters on threads that I should "not be dismissive" of the "millions of women" who will NOT be voting for Obama because they have been "thrown under the bus" by their own party, as evidenced by the fact that the female candidate will not be the nominee.

I have also been 'warned' that this contingent will vote for McCain, or not vote at all, in order to "send a message" to the Party. A few months ago, there were several threads in one night advocating that women Democrats refuse to vote in any upcoming presidential elections unless a woman is one of the choices. (I will add that most said advocates have since been TSed).

I have no doubt that the original seeds of such discontent have been sown by RW operatives, eager to divide the Democrats in an election year. However, the fact that some women have obviously been misled by such rhetoric doesn't excuse their behaviour, nor forgive their spewing of RW propaganda here or elsewhere.

It's one thing to dismiss out-of-hand the ravings of lunatics; it is quite another to pretend they don't exist, and have not been blatantly obvious on this site.



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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #71
177. Here are some nasty threads about Senator Clinton's supporters supporting McCain
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lucky leftie Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #70
149. I don't know who they are.
I know of(but didn't read)one op-ed by Gloria Steinem that presumably suggested women should vote for Hillary because she's a woman, period. You're frequent harping on Clinton's female supporters seems to suggest that this attitude is rampant among them. I see no evidence of that. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a rousing, good rant?
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #149
169. I don't 'frequently harp' on HRC's female supporters ...
... and pointed out in the OP that this is a loud-mouthed but, small group - hardly a 'rampant attitude'.

But be sure to browse the Greatest Page when you have a minute - one of said loud-mouths has a thread going on this very topic.
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lucky leftie Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #169
208. "Frequent" is an overstatement.
I apologize. You have written 2 other pieces on this topic that I know of, right? Three articles doesn't add up to "frequent."

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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #208
209. Yes, I believe it has been three.
But you will note that in all three, I have not disparaged any Hillary supporters, male or female, for their choice of candidate - only those who are encouraging the idea that a loss for Hillary equates to the entire party being sexist, "throwing all women Dems under the bus", etc.

As I've said several times before, if Hillary was as thin-skinned as some of her so-called supporters, she would never have achieved what she has to date - and, I am sure, will continue to accomplish in future.

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lucky leftie Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #209
215. OK.
I can't imagine that the attitude you are describing (ie. Clinton deserves to be president because she is female) is that widespread. I have honestly never encountered anyone who admitted to believing something so loony, although I've noticed a lot of frustration over Clinton's sexist treament by the media, which I think is justified.

I realize that there is a lot to criticize in Clinton, and I can live with criticism. What I object to is the misogynistic form the criticism sometimes takes. This criticism has also spilled over to her supporters, who are often denigrated as wacky menopausal women.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.


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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #215
220. Well, I'm a wacky post-menopausal woman ...
... for Obama!

Please don't get me wrong. The vast majority of Hillary supporters are sane, level-headed people whose efforts on her behalf have been an inspiration to many here. And no doubt most of them will work just as tirelessly to see a Dem in the WH, regardless of the fact that he wasn't their first choice.

However, my OP here (and the other two you referred to) were prompted by a small but VERY VOCAL group of women here on DU, who have persisted in advocating that women Hillary supporters should walk away from this election, and the party, if their candidate is not the nominee.

I also firmly believe that most of these people are NOT Democrats at all, but outside agitators who are fomenting discord by encouraging the idea that this nomination has been 'stolen' away from Hillary simply because of her gender - something they know will be a sore spot amongst many Hillary supporters who were hoping to see their first woman president.

Hillary did not win the nomination, and it's not because she's a woman. However, no one will ever look back on this campaign and say she lost for lack of effort, endurance, and tenacity on her own part, or on the part of her many supporters. She owes them a lot - and I think she knows it, and appreciates it.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #220
244. I think you may be right about the outside agitators -- too partisan to be real
I've gotten quite upset about them, but you may be right. Their comments do seem far too rigid to be real sometimes. Probably designed to keep dissent going. They steamroll along pretending they believe there is still some way numbers can be twisted to give her a win. They toss in comments to stimulate the feeling that any criticism of her is just not fair. I also think outside agitators may be the ones playing this fake game of -- Hey Guys, Can't You Be Nice To Us Hillary Supporters? If you want us to support your guy you'd better be nice -- seemingly conciliatory statements actually designed to elicit discord. They make the grand gestures of asking for understanding without any apologies for the use of racially divisive tactics, which they know will infuriate many of us who held out some respect for the Clintons until the kitchen sink phase began. So yes indeed, thanks for helping me wake up to the possibility that I may be getting all exercised due to expert outside agitation. Let's hope the claims of significant percentages of defectors to McLame are also pumped up by the professionals who hope to prohibit change.
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XtraProudDem Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #69
100. I know a woman who thinks this way...
Edited on Tue May-20-08 01:03 AM by XtraProudDem
I know a woman like this, Perry. She's mid-30s, super smart, and completely unwilling to accept anyone as the nominee other than Hillary Clinton. When I'm around her she goes after me. She's angry, and in disbelief that anyone had the gall to even challenge Clinton. I try my best to be diplomatic and say nice things about Senator Clinton when I'm around her, and that helps a little, but not much.

I know this isn't proof that women who feel this way exist in large numbers, but one has touched my life personally. It wouldn't surprise me to find out there are many more like her.

I think it's very sad, and I'm very troubled by it.
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PADemD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #100
119. Is she from Pennsylvania?
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mlevans Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #119
137. I understand why you might ask that, but
I know many women in our area, including my wife, who volunteered and voted for Barack, and we are not city dwellers either. We're mostly rural and small towns here, but the Obama message was very well received. Just a side note: Senator Clinton won our state by a narrower margin than the MSM actually reported, likely I think because the real figures were at variance with what they initally had predicted.
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SaveAmerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #100
120. Anger is the key here, I also know someone like this (two someones actually)
Their anger is real, and its strong. And when I think back on the instances when their anger was directed at me I realize now that I was just a substitute for their anger at Obama. They have used the 'it's not his turn' 'he should have let Hillary run now, everything was lined up for her to win' lines and they are genuinely angry about it all. I wonder now if they are having some sort of 'Fight or Flight Response' in reaction to Obama's name, his campaign, all of it. They are part of our local group, we are many strong Democratic women and we're not made for flight. I wonder if Hillary had conceded at any point when it looked like her chances were slim, would her supporters have had a better chance at healing and not needing the 'fight or flight response' and be able to consider an Obama candidacy easier. I understand the need to keep up a fight, I'm a fighter myself. I've had crap thrown at me in life and it's the strong Democratic woman in me that makes me press on. But sometimes you have to look at the larger picture and realize when your actions are harming those you want to help more than you are helping them.

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DerekJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
72. Dead on.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
74. And if the Democrats lose the next election...
These non-voting Democrats will have no one to blame but themselves...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
77. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #77
98. Evidence? Where Obama HIMSELF race/sex baited?
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Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #77
101. I see you studied math under Karl Rove.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
78. Absolutely, Nance
I was out riding my bicycle today, thinking about the nasty nature of some of the folks you are talking about- their relentless hatred of Obama.....

Something very odd struck me:

I'm not convinced they are all women.


There are a couple here who perpetrate the same crap, repeatedly, with that obsessive sports fan's "fuck him" alpha male hatred some duuudes seem to have for each other....

And then there a couple who post in waves, too, like professional trolls who are tasked with seeing what memes stick.

The earliest mention of the coming garbage about Michelle Obama was something I saw HERE before I saw it on MSM, for example....as though it were a test of the waters to see if it might gain traction in the Democratic base before feeding it to the blog trolls......

(Not attempting a thread hijack....I'll get off this....)

K&R
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #78
140. Easy to agree with that Cliff
I think there is only one person here who has the "alpha male hatred"...He posts bad hitjobs on a daily basis like a real "superhero".

A few who post the hitjobs as if they are instructed to on a daily basis. Almost in complete ignorace that the hitjob tactic has been the downfall of her campaign (IMHO). The "professional" title should be used loosely there but they may very well be paid to do it.

There are also some sincere folks. I feel for a few of them. THere are a few that are nothing but hatespewing wankers though...
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
79. Thank you, Nance!
For so eloquently stating what so many of us feel about the depths to which some of hilary's supporters will go to insure cutting off their collective nose.

Who knew when hilary started out that when she lost she would be such a poor loser and would infect so many with her attitude of "poor little ol' me"?

Well, I guess some did since this drawn was months ago..

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redstate_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
80. Excellent!
Couldn't agree with you more.
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
81. Poor Hillary....
multimillionaire senator from the giant state of New York. Thanks to the number one enemy in her life...sexism...she just can`t seem to get ahead. Perhaps she`ll have to rely on Bill, the family`s biggest defender of women`s honor.

With a little luck, the busy beaver sexism police have cousins in the racism police field. The Democratic Party really needs the help.

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ladym55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
83. Thanks, Nance
Scorched earth campaigns are ugly and don't belong in the primaries. I'm hearing what you are talking about from people I actually know.

Educated and well-to-do Hillary supporters have told me things like
"Sexism is FAR more pervasive and powerful than racism in this country."
(Don't know about you, but I've never been pulled over for driving while female. Do know lots of black men who have been pulled over for driving while black ... especially in upscale neighborhoods. So don't know if I buy this argument)
"Jeremiah Wright is a VERY important issue. Obama had the CHOICE to leave his church." (And this was from an atheist ... what she knows about attending church would be??)

From uneducated Hillary supporters:
"Obama is a bad man. I just can't vote for someone who doesn't love his country."
"Obama consorts with known criminals." (No one ever told her about Marc Rich apparently.)

This is a mess. The longer this goes on the more frustrated I become. I look at SCOTUS, the shape of our economy, the war in Iraq ... we need to be grown-ups now, not small children throwing tantrums.
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papapi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
84. Who cares. She's finished. Kaput. Done. Over. Toast. Washed-up.
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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
85. the ONLY point they'll be making by voting for McCain
is what complete and utter fucking morons they are.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
87. I really enjoyed your post - you say it all so much better than I ever could.
This week sexism is the theme - I wonder what they'll come up with next week.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #87
129. Sexism again, I bet.
It's a theme that never grows old, never wears out its welcome. When you've got a winner like that, you're foolish not to stay with it.
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AnnieBW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
89. THANK YOU!!!
I'm so sick of the "I'm gonna vote for McCain" bullsh*t. Obama wasn't my first choice, either. Nor was he my second or third. But once it's decided, suck it up and support him. You don't have to put a bumper sticker on your car or a sign on your lawn. But think about the Supreme Court and our soldiers in Iraq when you vote.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #89
176. Amen, AnnieBW
Neither Obama nor Clinton are my choices for the nomination. But I will vote for the Democratic nominee. Too important not to.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
90. Very well said, Nance
The people who say they will actively work for, and/or vote for McCain, or who will stay home and not vote at all if Obama gets the nomination (which he pretty much has already) are, to me, not real Democrats. To threaten to throw the party over because their "girl" didn't get the nod is absolutely insane.

I thought part of being a feminist was supporting a woman's right to choose, supporting reproductive rights, etc. Wanting McCain to win over Obama tells me these women are NOT true feminists if they are so willing to let women's rights be set back decades because of more far-right judges being appointed to the SCOTUS. I chose a long time ago to not have any more children after I had my daughter, but access to safe abortions and to birth control is still a huge passion for me.

And another thing: those Clinton supporters who are threatening to sabotage Obama's candidacy because Clinton the woman didn't get the nomination -- how would THEY feel if the people who support Obama, especially the AA's, made the same kind of threat? Would they not perhaps see them as I see these particular Clinton supporters -- as throwing away the best chance the Dems have had in quite some time to take back the WH, and perhaps even a larger chunk of Congress?

People, this is less about the PERSON than it is about the PARTY, and the COUNTRY.

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IllinoisBirdWatcher Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
94. Very well said
Thank you.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
95. For those voting for McCain, aren't they being hypocritical? Shouldn't they write in Condi instead?

... or should we make the extrapolation that they can't vote for her because she's black! :)

Or for that matter, why don't they vote for Cynthia McKinney and the Greens? Though some would argue that the latter is throwing one's vote away, at least I could respect more voting for the Greens on principle.

Voting for McCain exposes them for the mean spirited and petulant hypocrites they are! And NOT Democrats!
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
96. Wow finest ever.
I would like to point out, with your permission, that Lucille Ball could well be considered America's first great truly independent woman. She not only competed in a man's world she made them look like idiots. She out negotiated them at every turn. Realizing that being an attractive actress (which is what she was and how she started) was a time sensitive proposition and that the supply was nearly endless she purposefully turned to comedy.

She sold the networks on her show and insisted that her family be in it so that she could have both a professional life and a family life. She had them film on film stock so that the quality would be retained and negotiated the rights for reruns. She formed her own production company.

In short Lucille Ball never took her eye off of the ultimate goal, keeping her eye always on the, yes, ball.

This is the difference between the psuedo-Democrats, and that is the only real title for them and those that are going to thrown George Bush, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, Donald Rumsfield, Karl Rove and the rest of these fools into the cesspool of historical judgement that they have worked so hard to achieve.

Please don't ask me to help pack the bags of the Psuedo-Democrats my back isn't that strong to hold all of the items you listed.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
102. Kicked.
Hey, Nance, ever thought of running for office?

Maybe you could be our first female president! :)
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
103. Well said as usual, my dear Nance!
Once again, you've hit the nail on the head...

Thank you...

K&R, not that you need it!

:patriot:
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
104. You go, girl!
I’m here to tell these women that I would be more than happy to help you pack.

The amount of @ss-kissing certain types of women feel they are ENTITLED to is nothing less than mind-boggling. All of this "good luck getting us to vote for your guy in November!" crap said in response to ANYTHING positive about Obama is pissing me off so much that I damn near want to scream.

There is much, much more I'd like to say but I'd get in trouble. Get it together, ladies! And I say that as one of you.
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jmondine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
105. One slight clarification
I don't think Nance was addressing this to everyone in the party or even this sight who supports Clinton, only those who do so based solely on her gender rather than any substantive issues, and who threaten to either not vote, or vote for McCain in retaliation. I generally agree with Nance, especially with her pointing out the terrible damage that a McCain presidency could do to women's rights in the long term.

Imagine, if you will, a presidential race where the candidates were Al Gore and Ann Coulter. Would I be sexist if I voted for Gore? Or simply sane?
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
107. Right On Nance!
You have a way with words that logically explains the real issues at hand without gumming it up with extra words.

If these "So Called Democrats" actually believe that No Action will benefit them, they have no clue, and need to keep taking their Xanax, Prozac or whatever mind numbing anti-depressent they are on and curl up in the fetal postion.

This thing called "Independent Thinking" is out of their league.

Of course, I have not met one single Hillary Supporter yet, and believe me, I am looking for them. I don't see any signs, no bumper stickers.. Nothing.

Therefore, all of the Hillary supporters that lurch out of the shadows and attack and rant seem like Republican operatives on some Psyop.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:08 AM
Response to Original message
108. Thanks
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concerned canadian Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #108
109. K&R

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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
111. Blogrolled
About time that I blogrolled your writing, Nance. To me, you are the epitome of strong, independent, free-thinking woman. It's your world, and I get to live in it!

:D
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MirrorAshes Donating Member (942 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
113. Powerful. Thanks for writing. n/t
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
114. That "we have to Send a Message!!!" crap is just that.
CRAP. All you're doing is sending a message to the Dead Letter office, and making it possible for the worse of the two choices to win.

Haven't we been-there-done-that once already, back in 2000? And haven't we gotten it up the ass ENOUGH for that one? Isn't one cataclysmically colossal blunder enough, or do we have to go back and ask for more? Or are we still gluttons for punishment? Maybe these people like martyr complexes, or they have a fun habit of running all over town with a nice, big, bright "Kick-Me" sign on their backs. I wish they could see what a huge exercise in futility this whole notion is.
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SanchoPanza Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
115. That way destruction lies.
I would contend that the bias-associated negatives between the two are roughly equal. The emasculating she-wolf vs. the brown militant. Familiar stereotypes to most, for certain. Equally threatening to the worldview of the Archie Bunker archtype. To argue over which one is more threatening is, ultimately, pointless. It only serves to sow disunity among people who would normally be allies.

But to complain that Sen. Clinton is in a weaker position vis-a-vis the stereotypes specific to her candidacy is ignoring the sweep of this entire primary season. Obama ran a better message given the context in which the nation finds itself, has made far better use of new fundraising paradigms (astronomically better use... if this election is going to set any kind of redefining precedent, it will not be one of gender or racial equality, but of financing political campaigns), took much better advantage of the contest schedule, and had a far more capable campaign staff.

To be brutally honest, the ramifications of Identity Politics gone mad would have set in no matter who of the two was closer to the nomination. This is fundamentally why you vote for the best available candidate to push forward a favorable agenda, not a candidate who symbolizes your own personal struggles. If that candidate loses, then you lose. Not just politically, but emotionally. And no one likes feeling like a loser.
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crimsonblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
116. nancegreggs is a sexist.
snarkity snark snark.
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Dystopian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:15 AM
Response to Original message
118. Awesome, Nance!
I love your writings. I have to acknowledge this one with heartfelt thanks.
K&R for sanity....you're a gifted writer. I'm a middle aged woman who is looking at the ethics and ideals presented in this campaign. Hillary has taken the low road. When I first saw the 3 o'clock ad, I was so naive that I thought it was a parody of her campaign tactics. :blush:
Keep on keepin' on!
peace~
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
122. Ha-Ha......

"Over the course of the primary process, we have been “treated to” the outcries of a number of women (alleged Democrats) who see the inevitable recognition of Barack Obama as our party’s nominee as being unfair, illegitimate, and unconscionable simply because he is not Hillary; i.e. not a female."

It's a good thing we can use "bullshit" in lieu of the more appropriate word for crap like this.

Reality check. No matter how eloquent, bullshit is still bullshit. The op is saying the same thing the more lowbrow majority here screams at us every day, but giftwraps it in an attempt to hide the smell. The above quote from the op is a fairy tale, and it's author believes themself to be above questioning the validity of what is said. Most O fans will, as in the past, swoon wide-eyed at the author's ability to "put things in perspective", while most have said the same thing in other threads, but with open hostility. Perhaps it's the ability to wrap bullshit in eloquency that they admire, and not the bullshit itself.

One more point. While the op condemns, chastises those Clinton supporters who will not vote, or will vote McShame, the author completely fails to recognize, or point out that if Clinton gets the nomination, or was in Obama's leading position, Obama fans would be subject to the same treatment. But because the circumstances favor Obama, the author can pretend that if the roles were reversed, O fans would do the "honorable" thing, and back Clinton. If kudos to boost the ego are the objective here, there are plenty who will feed it, but also know there are some who will see through the facade of respectability, and call it what it is. Bullshit. Thanks.
quickesst
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Yossariant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
123. We've also been "treated to" all those adolescent bully-boys and their self-hating handmaidens
from Team Obama.

:puke:

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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
124. VOTE HILLARY... FIRST PRESIDENT WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF A PENIS!!!
i DO understand women wanting a woman president.... hell i'm a guy and i'd like a woman president...
ON THE OTHER HAND... i'd like the person with the most votes as applied by our rules to win--- because otherwise i'd resemble those sons-o-bitch republicans, WHO WANT TO CHANGE THE RULES WHENEVER THEY LOSE...

HEY HILLARY... HOW ABOUT REDISTRICTING FOR SOME NEW STATES ?????
EAST VIRGINIA
OLD YORK
NORTH CALIFORNIA
O-LOW-O
YOU'DA'HO (NOW THERE IS A STATE FOR YOU)

COME ON... GIVE US A BREAK...
-----------WITH HALF A BRAIN, AND CLEANER TACTICS... YOU COULD'A BEEN THE V.P.
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southern_belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
125. Well said, Nance. K & R n/t
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
126. Bravo, Nance
This kind of bargaining is pissing me off too (I actually did a rant about it a couple days ago). It's like a demand that "I get X or I won't vote".

Have a rec.
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Mad_Dem_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
128. Amen and Amen!!!
I'm sick and damn tired of hearing that one is not a "true feminist" unless one votes for the female candidate. If I do not agree with the female candidate's positions/views, I will not support her.

This paragraph of yours said it all:

Those things are of no importance to these women who, while pretending to hold high the banner of the liberated, independent-thinking, 21st Century female, encourage those of their gender to think, act, and vote as a group, dismissive of any semblance of independent thought or true liberation.

:applause:
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
130. Any Democrat who votes GOP
because Hillary ran a lousy primary campaign will need medication to sleep if More of the Same Insane McCain gets elected.
It's time to stop blaming everyone and everything for a scold who thinks she's entitled to hold the highest office in the country.
Scolding works for Bush and his moran followers, not for Democrats.
Want to know what these turncoats look like?
Go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWSjUe0FyxQ
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
131. knr
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
132. for the morning crowd
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
133. Great post!
This is fun to watch.


:popcorn:
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
134. Threaten..... beg..... threaten..... beg..... threaten.... beg (repeat)
Threaten.....beg.....threaten.....beg.....threaten....beg....threaten.....beg.....threaten.....beg.....

Dismiss (We don't need you anyway!!!!)

(Deep breath)

Threaten.....beg.....threaten.....beg.....threaten....beg....threaten.....beg.....threaten.....beg.....

(Repeat ad nauseam until November.)
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #134
174. No one is threatening you ...
... and no one is begging. You can choose to do what is right for your country, or not.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
136. Any Voting for McCain weren't Intending to Vote Democratic
Ignore the shit stirring as much as possible... they have screwed with this primary enough.

PS - they and their little club, DLC can move to the GOP where they belong. They enable pukes, they act like pukes, they get treated like pukes as far as I'm concerned. Stop giving these corporate sell-outs the benefit of the doubt.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
141. How dare you betray the power of the "va jay jay"!?!?!?
K&R Nance!
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
145. As always, well put NanceGreggs!
IMO (and many others here) you have a gift. :-) :thumbsup: :hi:
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Utopian Leftist Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
146. Wow!
Once again you have completely nailed it. I wish I had something worth adding but you've said it all, so thanks.
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YDogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
150. 100.
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
151. Hillary had every advantage she could have hoped for going in to this.
She had name recognition, the big donors, establishment support, her husband's advisors, corporate support from the defense, oil, and health industries, and was riding high atop the polls. Everything looked like a Hillary landslide. After all that she still couldn't close the deal.

And her supporters claim it's sexism while failing to see the irony that many of Hillary's women supporters are blatantly sexist. I really doubt the commitment to the Democratic party or to the liberal ideology from any Hillary supporter who refuses to support the Democratic nominee. With supreme court and federal judges to be appointed, it is no surprise that many of these woman are post menopausal and have no real concern for a woman's right to choose. Hell they don't even support a woman's right to choose who to vote for!

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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #151
162. She did
and quite a few were unfair advantages
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #151
198. I agree with you completely
Especially your first paragraph. If Hillary had run a clean, decorous, and civil campaign, she'd would have already been the nominee. She had all the advantages, but instead blew it. Instead she ran one of the most despicable, hateful campaigns in recent memory. She has lost, but some of her desperate supporters are completely blind to this. They're acting EXACTLY like Bush's remaining 28% fan club and are impervious to any reality bursting their little bubble they've created for themselves.

If they want to go ahead and vote for McCain, nothing we say or do will deter from doing that. May I suggest that they also leave us and join the Republican Party as well?? We don't need them around here; don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out and good riddance. Hillary can lead the charge; she has shown her true stripes in this campaign. She'd make an excellent Republican.
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Xenocrates Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
152. Needed to be said, Nance! K&R (nt)
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toys4kitty Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
154. When I grow up, I want to be like you Nance -
I lurk more than I post, but Nance- you always have a way of speaking to the spark within. You give a strong and /omg- afraid to say it/ logical voice to some of the vile putrid crap that gets spewed not just here, but in so many different facets of daily life.
You fill up my tank with hope that I am not the only one who perceives these events as you are able to eloquently voice.
Thank you and keep up the good work!

enthusiastically kicked and rec'd :hi:
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
158. the irony is they don't realize obama will do more for women than a pure corporatist
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
160. K&R Excellent! n/t
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
161. Thank you
what I think, but much better written
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innerjuju Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
163. A Woman Of Independent Thought Swimming Upstream
This may well be the best written article of the political
season- albeit it may not sit well with numerous Hillary
supporters.  Today's election in Kentucky is a classic case in
point. Exit polls show that Hillary's classic demographics
remain? "White women", "Older women"... it
was the same thing. In hearing the questions being asked by
reporters as the voters left, it was exactly as you said,
"..and I'll vote for McCain if she doesn't get the
nomination." To the exclusion of our Supreme Court
appointments for the next 4 to 8 years? In the hopes Obama
loses and she gets another run in 2012 for the "I told
you so movement"? History has shown us what happens when
the defeated party does not campaign with all his heart for
the victor. Ask Dukakis or Mondale. This one may already be
too close to call for women to act like children and take
their toys and go home.  You hit the nail on the head.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #163
170. Welcome to DU!
:hi:
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
164. K & R
:thumbsup:
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ConservativeDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
166. Doesn't that make Hillary supporters perfect DUers?
NanceGreggs: You see, according to these women, it’s all about making a point; it’s about sending a message to the powers-that-be in the Democratic party.

Isn't that the perfect description of the average DUer?
Winning is not important.
Public officials who actually get something done are downright suspicious!

DUers love useless protest. Whining. Sending a message, as offensively as possible.
Finding new ways to express outrage. New ways to split the Democratic Party.
Suffering the delusion that "the powers that be" are somehow people in some smoke filled room, rather than their fellow Democrats.
Willingness to believe in any outlandish conspiracy theory to avoid the truth that their views just aren't that popular.

That's why there is so much hate for Nanci Pelosi here. So much love for Cindy Sheehan, Hugo Chavez, Che.

The only difference is that this time it's the "moderates" who are doing it.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
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Lugnut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
168. Thank you Nance.
K&R
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
171. Some 51+ % of the American population is female...
why they should be treated like "underlings" or anything other than equal in this society befuddles me. But that is a separate issue, my point is, of all the females that could have run, this is the one that did, and she has most likely lost the nomination.

This Primary Season has been a long and arduous one, historic in some ways, banal in others. I have looked at and evaluated the candidates, my choice, Richardson, went down long ago, so I looked for an alternative. I have to be honest and say neither of the two remaining have stoked the fire in me, in fact, both have done quite a bit to cool said fire. The posturing and lack of depth has been astonishing. I have seen many a political fight in my time, but rarely have I seen such unchecked egotism. It is to the point where the Party is ready to burst into factions that can do no good for the future, and the reality that comes through is that anyone who would walk away and vote for McCain is doing it for little more than a "principle" that is far and away a distortion of what a principle should be.

When we vote, we vote for our own self interests, but as a Liberal/Progressive, I cast my vote for this nation as well, every one in it, and the real principles of a government that are: of the people, by the people and above all, for the people.

The thought of voting for McCain, or sitting out the election is so foreign to me, it does not even cross my mind until I read where someone might actually do one of those things. Are we really that childish? Our nation is running headlong into a serious disaster. Each and every one of us should hold our votes to a standard where we can actually do something to change the course we are on. It is not a question of feminism, it is not a question of race, it is a question of where our nation will wind up after this election...and it had better be in better hands than McCain's!

So I offer my principle...Our nation needs to return to a nation that can be a beacon of Freedom once again; a nation that can walk among the other nations of the world with it's head held high, not supported by false pride, hubris or by being the world's bully, but by being the nation of Freedom and Peace, walking on the road to true Equality, taking others with it.

This nation has the greatest untapped potential for doing good in this world, and I don't want to see that tossed into the sewer by another term of bush, via McCain. So I ask that every one of us stands up to fight the neo-con environment; back the D nominee and put an end to the darkness we have been locked in for the past 7 years. WE are the only ones who can do this, and we have no alternatives.



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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #171
172. You know what I'm going to say ...
... so can we just take it as said?

Post a link here when you do it.

:hi:
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wowimthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #171
180. Republicans want a fractured Democratic party because they are bankrupt of ideas
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #180
188. Precisely...that is why they are always in "attack mode" as opposed
to doing anything to prop up their own side...there is nothing to prop up.

Even mentioning bush brings their #'s further down...:D
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ejbr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
178. Even if my vote against Hillary WAS sexist...
I would still bite the bullet and vote for her if only to PISS off the right wing. Unfortunately, I am not a sexist male (I don't mind working for a female and have had a female doctor for example), and therefore cannot PISS off the right wing by voting for someone with whom I disagree on important issues.

Also, Hillary claims she should get the nomination because she can get the white working class vote. How many others will NOT vote for her because she was given the nomination because she "can get" the working class vote? Count me as one.
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wowimthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
179. K&R Absolutely on Target.. You would make a great president...
because you show the wisdom and judgment that was lacking in Clinton's candidacy.
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Flaxbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
184. Very well said, NanceGreggs. Thank you.
And it is so interesting that those who say your post is full of "condescending, arrogant bs" and misses the point completely - don't even bother to explain why they think so. No one provides a reasoned argument or discussion to the contrary, they just shriek, hurl criticism, and run. And it would seem some don't even understand the difference between 'you're' and 'your' - so I guess expecting a decent reply is just folly on my part.
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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
186. I (heart) Nance Greggs!!
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
191. K&R
:toast:
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
192. So....what exactly is the "number" of women making these claims and where are you getting it?
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #192
195. I'm 'getting it' from right here on DU ...
In fact, one of the loudest proponents has a thread up on the GP right now.

And then, there's this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6044629
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #195
197. So basically you base your opinion on the opinion of someone who you don't even agree with.
I don't think anyone has any idea how many women on or off DU support a female candidate only. And even if they do, what are you going to do about it? That's like trying to measure how many white male guys will only vote for McCentury. Hasn't been done and can't be done.

So why bother........
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #197
199. I 'bother' because I find it despicable, that's why. n/t
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #199
201. And they don't. So what? Trying to tell people they should vote this way or that is like
trying to argue what church they should go to, which is legit and so on. People are going to do what they want to do anyway.
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cyberspirit Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
193. Applause
Well said. I think there is an amazing amount of anger in this
country as a result of the insanity of the last 8 years. More
than we even realize. Where we direct that anger depends, of
course, on our own experiences. And I think a lot of women
have been collecting reasons of anger for a long time. It
simmers underneath the surface until something happens to
justify it to the surface. 

The women who are threatening to vote for McCain must think
they will feel better by doing so. However, the very sexist
mind set they say they are rebelling against will thrive under
a McCain administration, so I don't know what they think they
will be gaining.

I am a white woman in my 60's. I am voting for Obama because
he has the qualities that are so necessary for the healing of
this country and our relationships around the world. He
expresses a wisdom that is rare in politics. And since I know
people who know him personally and have worked with him, I
also know these qualities are genuine.

His sex has nothing to do with my decision. And Hillary's sex
has nothing to do with her not getting the nomination.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #193
196. Welcome to the discussion, cyberspirit!
:hi:
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
200. Kick for all the women who (sadly)
have their heads so far up their asses it ain't even funny.

Julie
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
202. why knock down straw men? n/t
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
204. It doesn't matter, Nance. We're all gonna end up
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
207. Looks like the women of *independent thought* voted for Hillary in KY!
Oh, and our voices will not be unheard this coming November.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #207
211. Meaning exactly what?
Come on, let's lay the cards on the table.
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #211
213. Hear us, We as women ROAR!!
Edited on Tue May-20-08 07:44 PM by goldcanyonaz
am woman, hear me roar
In numbers too big to ignore
And I know too much to go back an' pretend
'cause I've heard it all before
And I've been down there on the floor
No one's ever gonna keep me down again
CHORUS
Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to, I can do anything
I am strong (strong)
I am invincible (invincible)
I am woman
You can bend but never break me
'cause it only serves to make me
More determined to achieve my final goal
And I come back even stronger
Not a novice any longer
'cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul
CHORUS
I am woman watch me grow
See me standing toe to toe
As I spread my lovin' arms across the land
But I'm still an embryo
With a long long way to go
Until I make my brother understand
Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to I can face anything
I am strong (strong)
I am invincible (invincible)
I am woman
Oh, I am woman
I am invincible
I am strong
FADE
I am woman
I am invincible
I am strong
I am woman
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #213
214. So you Hillary supporters are all going to sing ...
... old Helen Reddy songs on Election Day? Is THAT the big threat?
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #214
216. You know full well what the threat is and it is getting bigger by the day;
We will never be threatened with ROE V WADE!
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #216
221. No, actually I DON'T KNOW ...
... what the threat is. Why don't you lay it for us?

The coy "oh, you know what we mean" shtick is beyond tiresome. So why not spell it out for everyone. We're dying to hear what the BIG PLAN is - if, in fact, there actually is one.

So, let's hear it ...
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #221
224. As tiresome as your *shtick*? We as women are joining together,
and we are NOT satisfied with OUR treatment during this election, and Phyllis Schlafly like women need not to apply.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #224
226. Don't look now, but ...
... your use of "we" as women doesn't include ALL women - actually, not even close.

Still waiting for you to explain the BIG THREAT, though ...
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #226
229. It includes me and hundreds of thousands of other women. And by the time the convention comes ....
it could be millions. Do you ever leave this site? Cuz, we women are starting a movement, and no you ain't included in the *we* part.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #229
232. Funny how there are 'millions' of women ...
... who will show up at the convention for Hillary. It seems that if they had shown up in their own states to vote for her, she'd have the nomination by now.

But we'll all be watching for you on TV during the convention coverage - we'll just look for the pots and pans!

:rofl:

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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #232
235. Laugh all you want with your sexist bullshit. Do you even have a Job?
You will soon realize that the women that you laughed at can and WILL sway the next election. But then again you will be to busy looking for your pot and pans.
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #235
240. *cough* *cough*
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #235
241. Yes, I have a job ...
... have worked all my life, just like many women have.

So now I'm sexist because I don't support Hillary? It's not sexism, sweetie - it's the fact that being an independent, liberated woman, I can choose a candidate based on my own criteria - instead of being led-by-the-nose by so-called feminists.

I have never let a man tell me what to do - I'll be damned if I'm going to let another woman tell me what to do.
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #241
247. But, many women do not agree with you and are offended by your blind following.
Edited on Tue May-20-08 10:33 PM by goldcanyonaz
we clinton supporters are not in the majority on this forum, but we can sway the election, we will have numbers in the next few months that you can not ignore. So go ahead and keep posting your anti clinton shit, I beg you to.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #247
248. Well, there's the thing, goldcanyonaz ...
Why are Hillary campers "dedicated supporters" while Obama campers are "blind followers"?

I have railed here against (alleged) Hillary supporters who are encouraging others to sit out the election, leave the party altogether, and/or vote for McCain. I find that deplorable - and as a Democrat, you should, too. (And I don't believe most of them are Hillary supporters, BTW, but outside agitators looking for an excuse to stir the shit.)

I have never questioned the sincerity of a true Hillary supporter, here or elsewhere. I have always taken what they have to say on the immediate assumption that they have chosen to support their candidate on an informed basis - not on the basis of having drunk the kool-aid, being cultists, or having been dumbly mesmerized like fans at a rock concert.

As you well know, as an Obama supporter, I have rarely been shown the same courtesy.

I admire the passion and tenacity of those who have contributed financially, phone-banked, gone door-to-door and given of themselves above and beyond the call of duty in support of Hillary - they are nothing less than admirable.

However, this was a race for delegates - and someone was going to win, and someone was going to lose. It's as simple as that. And Hillary has decidedly lost that race. It's over.

The time for you to have "numbers that cannot be ignored" is past. Those numbers would have counted before the process was over, not after-the-fact.

And if you think that standing outside the convention center, or even muscling your way inside, and shouting that you want Hillary is going to cause delegates to change their votes at your urging, by all means go to it. You'll be disappointed at the result - but you're certainly free to try.



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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #248
249. "I have never questioned the sincerity of a true Hillary supporter,"
:eyes:
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xmas74 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #249
251. But she questions their sanity
every time she posts.

And she is constantly questioning their intelligence for not agreeing with her.

Sounds to me like she'd prefer that us womenfolk not think unless our men tell us it's ok to do so.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #249
252. Link? n/t
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #248
250. self delete
Edited on Wed May-21-08 07:35 AM by JohnnyLib2
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #224
236. Phyllis Schlafly isn't a woman.
She isn't a man either.

She's one of those hybrid beasts Bush warned us about in his State of the Union speech.

Thank god he did warn us, too. Otherwise we would have been left unprepared for the horror.

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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #216
233. Fine. If Hillary steals this, I hope it gets overtuned.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #214
219. If Anita Bryant or Pat Boone threaten to sing, I'm leavin' the country.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #219
222. If THAT happens, you'd better get a good head-start ...
... there will be millions behind you!

:rofl:
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #222
234. Boats! We'll need boats! Lots of boats!
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #207
225. She's the strongest candidate. And being female, that gets her hated.
The weak are threatened.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #225
237. Damn. That's a laugh. How come them millions of women haven't
donated the big bucks??

Why can't Hillary balance her checkbook??
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
217. Hillary's last trick working?: providing 'respectable' cover for subliminal racism
Dick Morris said she would do this. He said it way back in autumn 2007.
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Willo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
223. K&R and offering bag packing assistance to any in need.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #223
228. Thanks, WIllo!
Good to see you again! :hi:
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
231. Kicked again!
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
238. Superb as ever, a logical tour-de-force. One small quibble.
And I never quibble with you, NanceGreggs, but you write early on that her supporters reject the notion of Obama as nominee:

. . . simply because he is not Hillary; i.e. not a female.

Your sentence was correct had it stopped after "Hillary." I am convinced that it's not JUST that Barack is a male, but that he has stolen the crown from she-who-was-to-be-coronated. Hillary's campaign has encouraged that attitude from her supporters - through ridicule, manipulation and innuendo, at the very least - and her supporters have responded to those campaign tactics in the unacceptable way you rightly criticize.

He's not Hillary. That is an unforgivable sin on the part of Barack Obama. The female part is not the main point.

Otherwise, as usual, this is brilliant.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #238
242. Thank you, faygokid!
I think that at this juncture, the Hillary/female dynamic is inextricably entwined. She has come to represent that 'first woman president' that so many women have set their sights on. She has garnered supporters based on who she is, as well as based on her gender.

That is certainly NOT the case across-the-board; but it is part of the dynamic.

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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #238
243. Thanks!!!
I think that at this juncture, the Hillary/female dynamic is inextricably entwined. She has come to represent that 'first woman president' that so many women have set their sights on. She has garnered supporters based on who she is, as well as based on her gender.

That is certainly NOT the case across-the-board; but it is part of the dynamic.

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thisoldbroad Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
245. Excellent article
Thank you for putting my exact thoughts into words.

I have lived through the women's lib years, benefitting from the struggles & fought along with them for equal pay & opportunities. I continue to fight for the rights of women & children - birth control & education; child support; family care, employment opportunities..

But Ms Ferraro is not playing a tune I recognize. She seems to feel that Senator Obama isn't as worthy & gifted a candidate as a woman.. she is wrong. She thinks everyone has played the race/gender card against Senator Clinton.. she is wrong.

A woman can be a strong candidate without threatening to "obliterate" another country, throwing back shots in a bar & spinning great tales of adventure when the real story would have been enough. It's a shame, for all Senator Clinton's experience she started this campaign ahead of all others.. but pissed away that advantage. She didn't show leadership & didn't accept responsibility for her own behavior or that of her campaign team. Senator Clinton isn't losing because of a sexist media, she's losing because isn't the kind of leader we need to repair the damage to our country.

Ms Ferraro is as interesting to me as another Tonya Harding interview.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #245
246. And a very warm welcome to DU!
I hope we'll be hearing more from you in future!

:hi:
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