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I am seething from this anti-Kerry (swiftboat liars) email - help please -

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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 07:15 PM
Original message
I am seething from this anti-Kerry (swiftboat liars) email - help please -
Edited on Sun Aug-08-04 07:22 PM by nu_duer
I know Kerry volunteered for service in Viet Nam and bush hid between his daddy's legs.

I know Kerry is a decorated veteran and bush was awol.

I am so enraged by this email, from someone I know personally, that I cannot at thsi time put together a more eloquent reply (and reply to all - over 100) than a simple "f*ck you."


The text of this email is below. I've been on DU for some time now. I am not trying to spread this crap. But I do want an effective, concise reply, and I'm not capable of that just now. If you don't want to see this kind of rw crap, then don't read further. If you'd like to help me reply, then please, read on, and make a suggestion.

The effin' called Kerry a "scumbag" here.

If you have the stomach for it....

On edit:

I changed my mind about posting this bs email.

Can someone point me to Kerry's "volunteered for Viet Nam service" graphic?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Look at these links
http://www.johnkerry.com/rapidresponse/080504_truth.html

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp


and some background material







In an intense three months of combat following that Christmas Eve battle, Kerry often would go beyond his Navy orders and beach his boat, in one case chasing and killing a teenage Viet Cong enemy who wore only a loin cloth and carried a rocket launcher. Kerry's aggressiveness in combat caused a commanding officer to wonder whether he should be given a medal or court-martialed. Kerry would watch in despair as a crewmate killed a boy who may or may not have been an innocent civilian. He would angrily challenge a military policy that risked the death of noncombatants. And he would try to escape the fate of five of his closest friends, all killed in combat.

<snip>

In any case, Kerry said he was appalled that the Navy's ''free fire zone'' policy put civilians at such high risk. So, on Jan. 22, 1969, Kerry and several dozen fellow skippers and officers traveled to Saigon to complain about the policy in an extraordinary meeting with Zumwalt and the overall commander of the war, General Creighton W. Abrams Jr. ''We were fighting the (free fire) policy very, very hard, to the point that many of the members were refusing to carry out orders on some of their missions, to the point where crews were starting to mutiny, (to) say, `I would not go back in the rivers again,''' Kerry recalled during a 1971 television appearance on the Dick Cavett Show.

But Kerry went back in the rivers. Indeed, it was after this meeting that he began his most deadly round of combat. Within days of the Saigon meeting, he joined a five-man crew on swift boat No. 94 on a series of missions in which he won the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and two of his three Purple Hearts. Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta.
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml



The following excerpts are drawn from Douglas Brinkley's Tour of Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War.

<snip>

Then, Kerry wrote, he looked over at the young woman they had detained, "who was squatting in the rear of the PBR." She was defiant. She sat very calmly, watching the movements of the men who had just blown four of her countrymen to bits. She glared at me. I wondered about her boyfriend who was fighting us somewhere else. The PBR crew said that the men in the sampan got what they had coming to them but I felt a certain sense of guilt, shame, sorrow, remorse - something inexplicable about the way they were shot and about the predicament of the girl. I wanted to touch her and tell her that it was going to be all right but I didn't really know that it would be. Besides, she wouldn't have accepted my gesture with anything but scorn. I looked away and did nothing at all which was really all I could do. I hated all of us for the situation which stripped people of their self respect.

<snip>

"I know that most of my friends felt absolutely absurd going up a river holding a loaded weapon that was supposed to be used against someone who had never really done anything to you and on whose land you were now trespassing," Kerry wrote. "I had always felt that to kill, hate was necessary and I certainly didn't hate these people." In truth, he added, scanning the shore for suspicious movements to shoot at made him "feel like the biggest ass in the world." Kerry had explored similar feelings in a letter to his parents in December of 1968. Describing the sight of American soldiers and their Vietnamese girlfriends strolling down the streets of the U.S. rest-and-recreation-center city of Vung Tau one sunny afternoon, he reflected on the crucial difference between occupiers and liberators of war-torn places. "I asked myself what it would be like to be occupied by foreign troops�to have to bend to the desires of a people who could not be sensitive to the things that really counted in one's country," Kerry wrote in that letter. He had been considering Germany's occupation of France during World War II, he added, when "a thought came to me that I didn't like - I felt more like the German than the doughboy who came over to make the world safe for democracy and who rightfully had a star in his eye."

Less than three months later experience had brought him to another melancholy observation. He wrote in his war notes, It was when one of your men got hit or you got hit yourself that you felt most absurd�that was when everything had to have a meaning in order for it all to be worthwhile and inevitably Vietnam just didn't have any meaning. It didn't meet the test. When a good friend was hit and perhaps about to die, you'd ask if it was worth just his life alone - let alone all the others or your own.

"But the ease with which a man could be brought to kill another man, this always amazed me," he went on. Even more troubling to him was the imprimatur the U.S. military accorded this coldheartedness. To illustrate his point, he referred to the messages that would come in from the brass at Cam Ranh, praising the Swifts' gunners whenever they had killed a few Vietcong, and ending "Good Hunting": "Good Hunting? Good Christ� you'd think we were going out after deer or something�but here we were being patted on the back and receiving hopes that the next time we went out on a patrol we would find some more people to kill. How cheap life became."
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200312/brinkley

Official Naval Records
After-Action Combat Reports
Annotated Version of 1971 Senate testimony



The tone was sneering. But the secretly recorded dialogue illustrates just how seriously Kerry was viewed by the Nixon White House. Some of these conversations have not been previously publicized, and Kerry said he had never heard them until they were provided by a reporter.

Day after day, according to the tapes and memos, Nixon aides worried that Kerry was a unique, charismatic leader who could undermine support for the war. Other veteran protesters were easier targets, with their long hair, their use of a Viet Cong flag, and in some cases, their calls for overthrowing the US government. Kerry, by contrast, was a neat, well-spoken, highly decorated veteran who seemed to be a clone of former President John F. Kennedy, right down to the military service on a patrol boat.

The White House feared him like no other protester.

<snip>

During private conversations with other group leaders, Kerry suggested that a veterans rally be held on the Mall in Washington, an effort Kerry hoped would refute Nixon's charge that the protesters were mostly college "bums."

"It was my sense that it wasn't going to be heard unless we went to a place where the issue was joined," Kerry said. "It was my idea to come to Washington. It was my idea to do the march. I floated that idea at the Detroit meeting. We all decided to make it happen. I became the unofficial coordinator-organizer."

Some members of the antiwar group viewed Kerry as an opportunist. He hadn't testified during the Winter Soldier hearings, hadn't organized the group, yet now he was seeking to become the coordinator and spokesman. But plenty of veterans also realized Kerry - erudite and clean-cut - was the ideal foil for those who viewed the group as hippie traitors or even communists.

So Kerry became the face of the organization, and a media sensation.
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml


Kerry on the Dick Cavett show.






But Kerry's time as a combatant, and his equally well-known role as a leader of the veterans who returned from Vietnam and opposed the war, account for only part of his personal odyssey involving the war and its aftermath that symbolically culminated in Clinton's visit to Hanoi. More than any other member of Congress, it was Kerry, with his ally Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), who cleared the way for normal diplomatic relations between the United States and Vietnam, beginning the process of healing the deep wounds of war. They did so largely out of the limelight, in the tedious and grinding work of a special Senate committee that was appointed to investigate the fates of Americans still missing from the war and the rumors that some of them were alive and being held captive in Southeast Asia. When the committee completed its work, Kerry, the chairman, had produced a unanimous, 585-page report that declared: "There is, at this time, no compelling evidence that proves that any American remains alive in captivity in Southeast Asia."

McCain was the lightning rod for critics of the committee's more than yearlong search for the truth, but it was Kerry who held the enterprise together. A lawyer by training, he used his skills to mediate vast differences of opinion on an emotional topic within the committee and with many of those who appeared before it. According to those who watched the process, he was invariably calm, evenhanded and, above all, persistent.

<snip>

The committee's report did not eliminate the explosive POW/MIA issue, but it did much to defuse it and lift the cloud that had been hanging over the country since the fall of Saigon in 1973. A little more than a year after the report was issued in 1993, Clinton ended the U.S. trade embargo against Vietnam; the next year, the United States established formal diplomatic relations with the Vietnamese. Both steps were preceded by passage of Senate resolutions, co-sponsored by Kerry and McCain, urging the actions.

Kerry was only one of many who eased the country down the long road to reconciliation with a once-bitter enemy, but other participants in the process describe his role as "pivotal" and that of "the catalyst." "John, on behalf of this nation, brought us back to Vietnam with our heads held high," said former senator Bob Kerrey (D-Neb.), who lost part of a leg and was awarded the Medal of Honor as a Navy Seal in Vietnam. "I think only John could have done it."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A50479-2004Jan2?language=printer






Veterans see Kerry as powerful symbol

Scorned, spat upon and ignored when they returned home from battle, Vietnam veterans are finding vindication and a voice in Sen. John Kerry three decades later, several veterans said yesterday.

“It’s a renaissance for us,” said Rick Hassett, 53, of Dorchester, Mass., who is in New Hampshire campaigning for the Democratic Presidential hopeful.

Hassett hopped a bus from Boston with about 20 other veterans to mobilize support for the Massachusetts senator among veterans before the Iowa caucuses. When the tired, gritty crew pulled into Des Moines 30 hours later, a crowd met them with cheers and applause.

It was a far cry from the jeers and derision that greeted the Bronze Star-decorated veteran when he came home from Vietnam in early 1972.

“It was wonderful. I was vindicated,” he said, his voice cracking slightly with emotion. “That was the welcome home I never got.”
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/news/news_2004_0124d.html







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WLKjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. LOL
so lol let lol me lol get lol this lol straight lol.......a purple heart recipieant is a scumbag while a AWOL person is regarded as one of the greatest (sic) american presidents:puke:......this one has me stumped.......I would like them to prove that W even served his full term in the TANG unit. W is the real scumbag and I bet the person who wrote this email would piss their pants if they were all of a sudden drafted for this war they support becuase of a LIE. maybe they can become the 1000 soldier to give their life for a LIE. You know what, they wouldn't becuase they are pussies. They like to talk like they have a load, but the only load they have is in their diapers!
:hurts: RNC false email's.
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benddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. I was a nurse in Vietnam
I didn't dream those photos I saw of the guys with the strings of ears. Just last week a Vietnam Vet sent me his book about Vietnam and his trouble after...he relates seeing prisoners thrown out of helicopters. I heard this story more than once in Vietnam. There were all kinds of atrocities committed and anyone who denies it is a liar or fool. What about My Lai.
Another point of the 300,000+ wounded in Vietnam (purple hearts) 1/2 of those wounded were not hospitalized. If you figure that of the 57,000 who died maybe 10,000 didn't make it to the hospital that still makes 140,000 wounded who were NEVER in the hospital.
NONE of those guys was on Kerry's boat and some weren't even in country when he was.
I could say I served with John Kerry...I came home the same day he did. This is a crock of BS.
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carpediem Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. here is a link and some info we sent to my husbands father when
Edited on Sun Aug-08-04 07:25 PM by carpediem
he emailed this same thing to us. Hope some of this helps.


http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Swift_Boat_Veterans_for_Truth

(partial reply to him)
I have pasted some information about the group you refer to in this email, in particular about John E. O'Neill who is and has been a very outspoken antagonist of Kerry's since the Nixon administration. In fact, Nixon created a group of Swift Boat sailors centered around John E. O'Neill during his administration to try to counteract Kerry's testimony before Congress.


Here's a excerpt from the "New Yorker"

Nixon's chief counsel, Charles Colson, didn't just tap John E. O'Neill to attack Kerry, he also formed an entire group around him called Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace: <1>

" was an immediate celebrity. He was also an immediate target of the Nixon administration. Years later, Chuck Colson--who was Nixon's political enforcer--told me, 'He was a thorn in our flesh. He was very articulate, a credible leader of the opposition. He forced us to create a counterfoil. We found a vet named John O'Neill and formed a group called Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace. We had O'Neill meet the President, and we did everything we could do to boost his group."

"'Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' can be seen as merely a 21st century reinvention of Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace."
"When asked by NewsMax if they had in mind any potential smoking gun of distortion that might be revealed by an unfettered examination of Kerry's military records, there was no answer forthcoming."
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. 3 people donated $150,000 of the $158,000 that Swift Boat liars
have raised to date. Sounds like a 'weedroots' campaign to me.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Do you have a link to this, I would love to toss this around as ammuntion
:)
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Happy to oblige!
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. I assume your e-mail has a DELETE option
Use it.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. no no no, I won't just let this pass
I'll delete/block this liar from my email at some point, I'm sure. But this attack, this batch of lies, won't go unanswered.

No, everybody on this list will recieve, from me, a clear comparison of Kerry's military carreer vs. that of bush/cheney. I won't let it go until then.

thanx tho

:D
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. Is there a simple graphic that compares Kerry's volunteering to *'s "no"?
Edited on Sun Aug-08-04 08:09 PM by nu_duer
A graphic of the actual documents, side by side?

I'm too thrown off by this crap. I thought I'd set this nut straight with my replies to her "bomb Iraq" chants from last year. My reply this time will have to be more concise and effective than I am capable of just now.

Thanks for all the help, and if anyone has anything to add, please by all means do so. I'll be saying hello again to a hundred or so people tomorrow - answering lies with fact.

How the hell can somebody attack a decorated veteran who volunteered for service and praise a coward who hid? I don't know what that is, but its not patriotism.

I'll be replying to this bushot, and her mailing list, tomorrow, and I'll check this thread before I do.

It may not make a difference, but I just can't let this go unanswered.

Again, thanks to all.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. last week someone (nostamj ?) posted the actual
documents side by side. Several people posted that they would like this on a T-shirt.
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BlueCollar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. Check out this thread...says it all
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. Reckless aggression, murder of innocents, gung ho attitude
Edited on Sun Aug-08-04 08:51 PM by Downtown Hound
Wait a minute, the Republicans have a problem with this? When did this happen?

As someone has said snopes.com has already debunked all of this.
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debm55 Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
14. Swift Boat Vets are asking for Donations
I can't start a thread because I'm new. But a conservative site I go to(trying my hardest to convert them) posted a message to help out the SwiftBoat Vets. Exact words--"the lone home builder can not do it alone." I posted that it was BS. More then likely Bush told them to scatter or lay low for awhile. Anyhow here is the link
>
https://coral.he.net/~swiftvet/swift/ccdonation.php?op=donate&site=SwiftVets
<
My question are---is this legal?
.
Who is this money going to?
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
15. Nixon's Vietnam War
I'm trying to find a way to counter this argument rather than the old 'he misspoke' line.

In Kerry's acceptance speech, he said 'Nixon's Vietnam War' and one person at a list used that and the casualty figures to prove that it wasn't Nixon's war.

I'm looking at taking this from the angle that Nixon was scared of Kerry and all that he was doing as a result of his protests.

Also, another thing which occured to me...maybe you guys thought of this, too.

But if Kerry was so 'bad' as some of these guys claim, why didn't they throw a fit about the medals and all that jazz then? I mean, Kerry was in the spotlight from what they've said...repeatedly, I might add.

Surely, knowing what he was doing and saying at that time, wouldn't that have been the time to stand up and call Kerry all those awful names that are being lobbed at him now? I have a hard time swallowing that they're doing it now because of the highest office and all that jazz.

Yes, I think they're liars, too. The worst kind, IMO. I just want some new weapons, so to speak.

Cyn:)
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