I fear that John Kerry and the Democrats are about to make an historical..

[kentuck]

blunder? If they adopt and accept the pre-emptive policies of George W Bush or even, the policies to remain in Iraq and stabilize that area for "democracy", it will be an error that they did not have to accept ownership for and history will record that the Democratic Party could have gone a different direction but they chose to follow the dictates of George W "Moron" Bush.

And five years from now, when we are looking for an exit strategy, people will wonder why the Democrats got us so deeply involved in such a quagmire? The time to make courageous decisions is now - not 5 years down the road. I fear our Party is following the Pied Piper of Disaster and will rue the day they agreed with George W Bush on anything.

[Nite Owl]

1. I remember hearing Kerry

recently specifically say that would would not invade another country like we did in Iraq. Pre-emptive can mean a lot of things not necessarily taking over a nation. It might have been a good thing if Clinton had struck Afganistan for example to get the Al Qaida camps. I think there was some intel that prevented that but if were possible that kind of pre-emptive strike would have saved many lives.

[lottie244]

15. God I wish Dennis Kucinich had won and Dean was his VP or vice versa

I will vote for Kerry but hate every minute of it.

[George_Bonanza]

24. Uh, Dean's Afghanistan-Iraq plan is very similar to Kerry's

And Kucinich endorsed Kerry.

[Zhade]

2. Agreed. Unfortunately, we're stuck with either Kerry or b*sh.

I'll take Kerry, but I'm not kidding myself that much is going to change in regards to American imperialism. It's too entrenched to be stopped by anything but its own overstretch.

Man, it's gonna hurt when we fall.

[jjmalonejr]

3. The blunder has already been made by George W. Bush

I believe there is a middle ground between extreme and misguided worldviews, though.

I certainly don't advocate continuing the wrongheaded policies of the neocons, but I also wouldn't recommend simply saying "our bad, sorry 'bout that," withdrawing immediately from Iraq and allowing it descend into the chaos of failed statehood that we have created.

[wtmusic]

4. Yep -- we're stuck with Junior's mess

at least with Kerry and a little diplomacy there is hope

[kentuck]

6. And our presence will prevent it from descending into the failed statehood

...that we have created? Our very presence will assure that they remain "stable"? Our guns will insure that Iraq does not descend into chaos...war and pestilence maybe, but not chaos. :)

[jjmalonejr]

18. You're absolutely right, our presence alone will not assure stability.

However, I believe (and I may be wrong) that our immediate withdrawl would be more catastrophic.

That's why a president who understands diplomacy and whose credibility has not been thoroughly decimated is the only way out of this mess.

[DemBones DemBones]

5. I hope that, once in office, John Kerry will work to end

US involvement in Iraq within a year. I think the Iraqis will opt for another strongman government, though perhaps an Islamic one. We can't make the rest of the world adopt democratic government, particularly when ours has so many flaws.

[malatesta1137]

7. let's get Kerry in first

you talk as if the elction is behind us. Let's worry about his policies when Kerry gets in office.

[Skarbrowe]

12. Yep. I'm still in no way convinced that Kerry is going to win.

Simply because I don't trust the reptilian republicans and all those touch screen voting machines that are everywhere.

[Poiuyt]

8. Iraq was NOT a pre-emptive war

Bush was aching to invade Iraq so he made up any excuse to do it.

Actually, I could see the basis for a pre-emptive war, but by that I mean REAL proof. If you could see troops massing on the borders, or something like that.

That said, I do agree with you about getting further into a mess. I would love it if we got out the day after Kerry 's inauguration. We'll just have to hope that he has success at internationalizing it.

[peacetalksforall]

9. I agree - a blunder - at least with people like me and all the bereaved

parents, lovers, single parent by reason of death, friends, and employees who prayed for their loved ones to come home with their bodies, limbs, immune system, and brains intact to continue the life that our country keeps promising. I'm against killing and I am against Kerry on this issue - with passion.

If those bereaved think of their losses as a sacrifice for the country - I feel immense regret. It is a sacrifice for a corporation who doesn't give a damn and laughs at what they are getting away with.

Kerry AND EDWARDS should know better.

[seabeyond]

10. i would rather wait til january

and see where the mess is in iraq before i become fearful of what may be when we dont have a clue what will be, grinnin

kerry might surprise us. who is to know

[napi21]

11. I don't recall Kerry saying "until Iraq is a democracy."

I believe he said we cannot just pull out or Iraq would become a haven for terrorist training, and I agree with him. He dod not say he would stay until Iraq was a democracy though. He said "Until Iraq had a stable gov't", and that's different. If they have a ligit election, and decide they want a theocracy, so be it. That's the choice of the iraqies. It's the shrub who wants to stay until they have a democracy there, and I happen to think that's just not happening in my lifetime.

[sallyseven]

14. I am more concerned about the US

still having a democracy after bush. Doesn't look too hot now.

[gulliver]

13. That won't happen.

Kerry won't follow Bush. There is no danger of that.

Staying in Iraq, stabilizing it, etc., are not Bush-only ideas. Like it or not, Bush invested over 900 American lives and $144 billion in American taxes on his Iraq debacle.

I think it is a failed investment. A dry well is nothing new for Bush.

But a good leader has to lead all of the people. When the people tell Kerry it is time to leave (not just Dems but Republicans too), it will be time to leave. As a leader, Kerry can assess the situation and persuade people of the best way to go. If he finds that the best answer is to pull out, Kerry can make that case to the people and world. If he finds that the best answer is to stay and attempt to stabilize, same thing.

Bush, on the other hand, cannot ever pull out without achieving utopian democracy in Iraq. He has staked the life of the Republican Party on that outcome, and he will throw American lives and dollars at Iraq regardless of how unlikely that outcome becomes.

[kentuck]

16. Well said, gulliver.... good analogy

"Staying in Iraq, stabilizing it, etc., are not Bush-only ideas. Like it or not, Bush invested over 900 American lives and $144 billion in American taxes on his Iraq debacle.

I think it is a failed investment. A dry well is nothing new for Bush."
====================================
However, I think the majority believe we should stay in Iraq until they are stabilized. The assumption therein is that they will be more stable with the US than without us. I'm not sure I believe that but I think the majority of AMericans probably do believe it. Just like we like to use democratic Viet Nam as an example where we stayed and "stabilized" the country.

[WilliamPitt]

17. See post 9 here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2179439

[kentuck]

19. And in the end, we withdraw anyway?

With the assumpiton that there will be less blood in the streets if we stay than if we go now. There will be civil war.
======================================================
"...An immediate withdrawal will set the stage for an incalculable slaughter in an Iraqi civil war, more terrorism against the United States, half a dozen more wars in the Middle East, the world's petroleum falling into the hands of al Qaeda, and the potential for Pakistani nukes in the hands of bin Laden. Staying in Iraq, conversely, will bring us more dead and wounded American soldiers, more dead and wounded Iraqi civilians, more terrorism against America, and billions and billions more dollars poured onto the sand."

[WilliamPitt]

20. There are going to be soldiers in Iraq for the next 20 years

They aren't building those goddam bases to keep grain in. The question becomes whose troops?

[kentuck]

22. They will be American troops ....

Other countries will keep a small contingent if they get to share in the spoils...

[Pepperbelly]

21. I think your fears are in vain ...

and I'll tell you why.

Everybody knows that the Iraq fiasco is a shithole and a horrible mistake. Even though they don't say it (for obvious reasons), they knew it.

Kerry knows it.

What I hear him say time and time again is that he is going to have us almost gone within a year. In other words, let's get the hell out of Dodge, boys!"

[Selwynn]

23. not leaving Iraq in disaster <> accepting pre-emption

Whether you agree or disagree about when/how our troops should come home doesn't have anything to do with accepting the doctrine of preemption.

When Kerry says - point blank - that he rejects the doctrine, and says in his much watched speech, his acceptance speech, that military force should only be used as a last resort, never as a first response, that is good enough for me.

What you are really saying is that you want Kerry to bring the troops home right now. I agree with WillPitt's analysis on this, or at the very least, I share his deep concern. As nice as it sounds, I just don't know that bringing our troops home right now is the best choice.

Either way that has nothing to do with embracing a preemptive war doctrine - that has to do with the best, most humane, most just way to pick up the pieces of a totally failed disastrous policy.

[bushwakker]

25. JK will not pull a Nixon on us

He will not escalate. His "stay the course" rhetoric is political. He will internationalize Iraq and lead us out.

[Tarheelhombre]

26. All you Chicken Littles need to keep your mouths closed...

Until after November 2. We don't need your naysaying right now to bring us down.

[kentuck]

27. What do you think we are?? Republicans??

we speak up whenever we feel like it... Sorry if it brings you down. A lot of shit brings me down.