First time in the history of politics that the popular vote leader is asked to quit the race?

[NJSecularist]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/14/eveningnews/main4097478.shtml?source=mostpop_story

Couric: You have the support of blue-collar white voters. But you only get about eight percent of African-American voters. And that's usually, as you know Sen. Clinton, what Republicans get. What do you think is behind this racial divide?

Clinton: Oh, I think its pride. I think its excitement. I absolutely understand and respect that. But once we get to November, my supporters, his supporters, no matter who they are, are gonna take a hard look at John McCain in the course of the campaign and realize this is someone who didn't support Dr. Martin Luther King holiday.

This is someone who has supported President Bush down the line on so many of the issues that really matter to people no matter who they are and where they live. We're gonna make a very strong case why our Democratic nominee should attract every single one of the 34 million people who have voted for us.

I've received nearly 17 million, Sen. Obama's received nearly 17 million; I'm slightly ahead. Those 34 million people, they will end up voting for the Democrat because there is no reason why they should want to continue the failed policies of George Bush.

Of all voters who have showed up at the polls this year, Hillary Clinton leads among those voters. It's only when you parse the votes into categories where they don't count or when a certain vote in a caucus is worth 10x as much as a primary vote due to some arcane delegate system is when Obama leads.

Even if the delegate argument held any water (it doesn't; neither candidate will reach 2024 pledged delegates), is this the first time in the history of politics where a candidate who leads in the popular vote (or is close) has been asked to leave the race before the convention? Reagan stayed in the race in 1976, Kennedy stayed in the race in 1980, Hart stayed in the race in 1984, Jackson stayed in the race in 1988, etc.

Yet Hillary, who leads among all voters who showed up at the polls, needs to suspend her campaign immediately? :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[cliffordu]

1. Yes. Yes she does.

[Condem]

2. Hey, NJ

Chris Matthews wants to interview you next. Something about Kevin James.

[grantcart]

3. Nope

Popular Vote (GP) Obama 16,120,456 Clinton 15,509,786

[NewHampshireDem]

12. Don't muddy the waters with your FACTS!

:eyes:

[unlawflcombatnt]

182. No you mean don't muddy them with your made-up "facts"

Since there's not a speck of truth in those numbers.

[Texas Hill Country]

232. hmmm... really? most of the news outlets, etc all confirm that she has the most votes cast

[unlawflcombatnt]

245. I think we agree

I was referring to the previous poster's vote totals that wrongly showed Obama in the lead. I agree that Hillary has the most votes casted.

[Gore1FL]

242. Your are right

popular vote totals from a combination of primaries and Caucuses are worthless. Obama leads by much more represented voters than indicated.

[NJSecularist]

16. No, those figures are wrong.

The popular vote totals of every single vote who has showed up at the polls is:

Hillary: 16,710,298
Obama: 16,680,827

It's only when you parse these numbers into categories where they don't count or when you count one vote as more than other due to some arcane delegate system is when Obama leads.

Is this the first time in the history of politics that the popular vote leader is being forced to quit?

[NewHampshireDem]

24. Wait, I found this ...

NJSecularist is wrong about everything.

See, I put it in the little div class="excerpt" box, so that makes it true.

[grantcart]

33. Well you are right about the stuff in the box

[BlooInBloo]

159. That makes for awkwardness if one of the things njsec said was....

"Post 24 in this thread is true"

[NewHampshireDem]

161. I could never figure those little riddles out ...

:crazy: They make my brain hurt.

[NewHampshireDem]

163. I gotta admit, NJS ... you sure do know how to draw a crowd. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

165. :) Google "contingent liar" for more info.

[RichardRay]

186. "Truth is not definable in a classical language." - Alfred Tarski

This controversial statement has been argued and dicussed by the likes of Russel, Wittgenstein and Quine. But it took Democratic Underground to provide an example of its ineluctability in the real world.

[BlooInBloo]

241. All credit is to Kripke of course. I just copped his example.

[Occam Bandage]

25. ...if you don't count Iowa, Nevada, Washington & Maine, or the MI uncommitteds, that is.

"every single voter," my ass.

[NJSecularist]

34. Are you counting Washington State primary votes?

Get back to me with those numbers.

[Occam Bandage]

You aren't counting either the caucuses or the nonbinding primary there. "Every vote," huh?

[NJSecularist]

40. Are you counting them both? n/t

[Occam Bandage]

43. I'm counting the caucus, because that was what voters were told was the binding contest.

[NJSecularist]

50. Is that why there were double the amount of voters in the primary than the caucus?

[Occam Bandage]

55. Voters were told which one would count. You can't change halfway through.

[NJSecularist]

62. The primary vote totals were double that of the caucus vote totals.

It's clear which contest they saw as more real, and most importantly, more accessible.

[Occam Bandage]

66. And more people voted in American Idol, but we aren't electing presidents by phone. That aside,

why aren't you counting the WA primaries?

[neverforget]

100. Let NJ go......he's counted the votes from the State of Denial too.

[cemaphonic]

162. In that case, please add 2 to the Obama count for WA

Neither I or my wife voted in the pointless primary, but supported Obama in the caucus.

As to the larger point, adding Florida is questionable - adding Michigan is downright dishonest unless you are giving Obama credit for the huge uncommitted vote. Obama leads the popular vote, for what little it matters anyway.

[unlawflcombatnt]

180. Exactly

Primaries allow every registered voter to participate without outside influence.

Caucuses are for the elite. Little wonder an elitist like Obama won the vote in an elitist-oriented caucus.

[WonderGrunion]

181. Elite?

You've obviously never sat around a table in Maine for an afternoon with a couple of dozen woodsmen and women drinking Dunkin' Donuts coffee and bitching about that "Effin Bastard Bush" before deciding who's best to kick him out of office.

That's what a caucus is. Sitting down with your neighbors in grubby flannels and talking the shop of politics.

Oh yeah, and we record the votes on a piece of paper, call in the results to Augusta, then send it certified mail to be counted by the SOS. None of those fancy electronic ATM voting booths like you hoity toity primary voters.

Elite my ass.

[eridani]

198. You forgot to mention that Maine has absentee caucusing for any reason

That's what I'm working on for next cycle in WA state.

[fight4my3sons]

209. with your kids running around

my elite husband had to leave work to come to the caucus. you described the rest perfectly. Really, dropping by a polling place and hitting a button on some machine would have been much easier for us with our three kids in tow. Three hours of caucusing with two three year olds and a five year old was not our idea of fun.

[WonderGrunion]

249. Now that

is a very valid criticism of the caucus process. Next time remember that Maine lets you absentee caucus and let the kids watch a DVD for those three hours.

[fight4my3sons]

252. I had no idea.

This was our first time caucusing. We moved from NY and have always participated in primaries. We really didn't think about voting absentee, but we whould have.

[Bettie]

257. Our caucuses in Iowa are not elite either!

Small town Iowa people sitting around the high school gym, eating cookies and discussing the candidates is not particularly elitist.

We had some spirited debate and people actually discussed their reasons for choosing one candidate over another.

What I took away from it was that EVERYONE in that room wanted W and company GONE and was had good reasons for their chosen candidate to be "the one".

Cry all you want about caucuses, but the fact is that they exist and they count. If you want change, well, work for it for the next election cycle, but don't discount them after the fact because they didn't go your way!

[eridani]

185. Yep. "Elitist" doorbellers and phonebankers

Shitstain consultants like Mark Penn who slice and dice microdemographics for bullshit marketing campaigns are not "elite" of course. Guess what? Caucus states have far more vigorous and active Democratic party organizations than states with passive soundbite bullshit/name recognition contests open to Repubs.

But then, as the 90s showed, the Clintons would prefer to not have active Dem parties with lots of farm team candidates for local offices. Hey, how'd that work out for us in governorships, state legislature majorities and Congress back then? :sarcasm:

[eridani]

184. That "accessibility" horseshit goes away with absentee caucusing like Maine has n/t

[slinkerwink]

31. that popular vote leaves out the caucus states, and the MI votes for Obama

How that a honest total?

[Occam Bandage]

35. Yeah, but she wouldn't be winning the honest total. That's the difference.

[NJSecularist]

Obama took his name off the ballots.

And unless there are actual hard vote counts from the caucuses, their numbers don't mean much. Estimates shouldn't count.

[slinkerwink]

46. and so did Edwards, Dodds, Biden, and Richardson. They honored the DNC pledge.

[LeFleur1]

221. DNC

According to a DNC spokesperson there was NO directive for the candidates to take their names off of the ballots. That was the personal decision of each candidate.

[Occam Bandage]

48. ...because, as Hillary said,

"You know, it's clear this election they are having is not going to count for anything."

http://www.jabberwonk.com/flinker.cfm?cliid=zydzt

[rateyes]

217. Yeah, because they told the truth when they signed the pledge

not to participate in MI.

[JackORoses]

235. "Estimates shouldn't count." Neither should illegitimate primaries

That much is obvious.

[DAGDA56]

36. I'm assuming you're counting Michigan and Florida, but are you also

counting every vote in the other 48 states?

[totodeinhere]

60. But those figures, even if accurate, do not reflect the votes in four...

states that held caucuses and did not report votes, only delegates. So we don't know how many votes either candidate got in those states. And therefore we don't know what the vote total should be at this point. If the vote total from those states were known it might change things. That's why we have to go by delegates. It's the only accurate measure we have.

[unlawflcombatnt]

109. The point is

that it's ridiculous to expect Clinton to drop out, when she's the candidate with the most popular votes counted so far.

[totodeinhere]

130. Actually, I support her right to stay in the race as long as she wants to. But...

we need to make it clear that the nomination must be decided based upon delegates, not popular votes. We can't use popular votes for the reason that I and other posters in this thread already outlined.

[dionysus]

140. but she's not... man get a grip

[madfloridian]

83. You are adding FL and MI

.

[Occam Bandage]

87. And cutting out Iowa, Maine, Washington, and Nevada, as well as Obama's MI votes.

[cui bono]

128. You're probably counting Michigan and Florida which is cheating since you're breaking the rules.

[Texas Hill Country]

238. the final verdict on that is not in yet.

[Terran]

215. Your source?

Oh, sorry, you don't have a legitimate one, do you?

[mkultra]

228. well since hillary agreed not to count them

then they don't count.

Bed. lie in it.

[JackORoses]

234. you know damn well that the flawed primaries don't count

why do you persist in making such a fool of yourself?

what do you get out of it?

[kay1864]

239. Let's get our REAL facts straight, shall we?

If we ignore Michigan, where

OBAMA WASN'T EVEN ON THE BALLOT,

which

ONLY A COMPLETELY DELUSIONAL VOTE-COUNTER WOULD INCLUDE,

then we get these totals

Hillary: 16,381,989
Obama: 16,680,827

(and heck that's even with Florida included! :thumbsup:)

But hey, anyone who wants to include Michigan, here's your :tinfoilhat: with my compliments.

:+

[unlawflcombatnt]

71. Did you just make up the numbers, or do you have a source?

Most people would cite a source for those numbers -- if they actually had one.

Since you didn't cite one, it looks like you just pulled them out of thin air.

Which is not surprising, coming from the Obama camp.

[leftofcool]

4. The DNC knows O is in trouble which is why the call for her to drop out

[cali]

21. LOL! could you be any more nonsensical? The DNC has not called

for hilly to drop out. And it's clear that Barack is in fine shape. His delegate lead is growing daily. He's going to beat her by double digits in Oregon. He'll beat her in SD and MN. She takes KY, but he'll be competitive in PR. Hillykins is done.

[DAGDA56]

23. Excuse me? One candidate is "in trouble" so the DNC wants the

other to drop out? No matter WHO you support, how does that make any sense?

[slinkerwink]

5. She's not in the popular lead vote.

[emilyg]

6. I'm proud of her. Stay in.

[midnight]

11. Yes, why not. If she has the popular vote-she should.

[Occam Bandage]

18. Too bad she doesn't.

[NJSecularist]

44. She leads in all votes cast that have her name on them.

It's not Hillary's fault that Obama's name wasn't on the ballot in Michigan.

[Occam Bandage]

52. "She leads in all votes cast that have her name on them."

And that is literally the only honest metric by which she leads--if you only count the ballots cast for her. Which is pretty much what you're doing.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

213. +2

[cali]

7. I support Hillary- who is NOT the popular vote leader- staying in

until the last vote is cast. But try and rejoin the reality based community; Hilly is done. She's falling further behind every day. It's crystal clear that Obama has enough SDs to put him over the top. Next week he'll pass the Pelosi club number and that will trigger even more SDs. Hilly is over 20 million in debt. She knows it's over. Time for you to accept that she will not be the nominee.

[Submariner]

8. First time in the history of politics that the popular vote leader lies about ducking sniper fire

[goldcanyonaz]

9. wow1 just like Gore..

[Lilith Velkor]

172. Eerie, innit?

[phrigndumass]

10. um ...

[NewHampshireDem]

17. See, more hate from the Obama folks!

:eyes:

[NJSecularist]

22. That is only when you discard actual votes from Florida and Michigan.

Fact: Hillary leads the popular vote when you count every single vote that has been cast this primary season.

[Occam Bandage]

32. Fact: That number doesn't count Iowa, Nevada, Washington & Maine caucus attendance, nor does it

count MI uncommitteds for Obama--which you have to, if you want to count MI at all.

[NJSecularist]

58. We don't have to do anything.

Obama took his name off the ballot in Michigan. That was his fault.

If those are hard caucus vote total counts, we'll add them.

[Occam Bandage]

61. Correct. For instance, we the Democratic party don't have to accept your bullshit selective totals,

nor your imaginary definitions of victory.

[NJSecularist]

65. Then you would disenfranchise the real popular vote leader.

Based on some arcane delegate allotment system.

[Occam Bandage]

68. LMAO@"real." It's only "real" if you disenfranchise four states, and half of another.

[Hansel]

112. And leave in the Limbaugh votes. nt.

[Occam Bandage]

115. I'm okay with leaving in the bullshit Limbaugh votes, but NJ is suggesting trashing the votes

of everyone in caucus states.

[Hansel]

143. I'm right there with you, but if the OP is trying to make a case

for their candidate's strength based on popular vote, counting bogus votes from people who are trying to skew the totals just makes the argument that much more pathetic. The argument sounds like it's coming from a 2 year old.

"Well he took his name off of the ballot, so there. And, and, and, uh caucus states don't count, so there too poo poo head." It is so childish it's a wonder that they are talented enough to type it out.

BTW, I live in a caucus state so my state doesn't count.

[rateyes]

219. He took his name off the ballot because he told the truth when

he signed the same pledge Hillary signed not to participate in MI. He would have done the same in FL had the law allowed it.

Hillary broke her word. That's HER fault.

[CTLawGuy]

236. what about the DISENFRANCHISEMENT

of people who wanted to vote for him. You hypocrites bray constantly about "disenfranchisement".

Guess what, it's FL and MIs fault their delegates are not counting, yet that doesn't matter to you.

Then you HYPOCRITICALLY turn around and say Obama voters shouldn't count becuase of Obama's personal choice to remove his name from a ballot in an election that didn't count. What happened to counting the votes uber alles????

If voters should not have to suffer because of WILLFUL breaking of the rules by two states, why should they suffer because of something Obama did, BECAUSE they broke the rules?

[GoesTo11]

208. Nor does it count Texas caucus votes, which Obama won

[CTLawGuy]

237. exactly

and how do you even count those votes? just add them up? but they are all the same people...

There is no accurate popular vote total.

[NewHampshireDem]

38. Can you clarify this for me, then?

"Fact: Hillary leads the popular vote when you count every single vote that has been cast this primary season."

Does that include those cute little things they do at elementary schools? You know, like when there's gonna be a primary and the kids get to vote for who they like best, and some kid usually writes his name, then gets mad when the principal doesn't read it over the PA at the end of the day before the buses come? Because, if they are gonna count MI, they should count those, too.

[Beregond2]

51. Could you be any more pathetic?

You know perfectly well that the FL and MI votes shouldn't count. If the situation were reversed, and Obama were trying to claim the votes from those states, you would be outraged. You KNOW that. And yet you try to make this asinine claim? Aren't you ashamed? Don't you have any more pride in your candidate than that? But then, she obviously doesn't have any pride herself, so why am I surprised?

Just stop embarrasing yourself, please.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

47. thanks for showing up here Phrig. What the hell are they doing?

How are they getting to the winner of the pop vote? Is it because
they are not giving O anything for Michigan?

[phrigndumass]

64. That's it exactly. But like Tahiti Nut says, it's FUBAR

Status Quo, as of May 14:
Barack Obama – 16,353,368 (+674,969)
Hillary Clinton – 15,678,399
(Source: Wikipedia plus WV results 5/14/08)

With Florida only added, as of May 14:
Barack Obama – 16,929,582 (+380,197)
Hillary Clinton – 16,549,385

With Florida and Michigan added, as of May 14*:
Barack Obama – 16,929,582 (+51,888) (0 votes for Obama in Michigan)
Hillary Clinton – 16,877,694
*Uncommitted – 238,168 (Michigan only, Obama wasn’t on the ballot)

Projected Hybrid “Popular” Vote at the end of the race (Status Quo):
Barack Obama – 17,442,858 (+545,472)
Hillary Clinton – 16,897,386

:loveya:

[Cali_Democrat]

13. I feel bad for you

You jumped ship right before USS Hillary went under and now you look really foolish.

Let's unite and defeat the Republicans in November.

[rodeodance]

187. what a patronizing post

[Labors of Hercules]

spinning, spinning, lies of omission all night long...

omit the caucuses, omit how unjust it would be to count FL and MI, Omit the delegate count... omit, omit, omit...

[NJSecularist]

30. Do you have any hard caucus counts?

Estimates don't count.

Which is why all caucus results should be discarded in this popular vote count. They are inaccurate.

[slinkerwink]

37. There are the hard caucus counts in the ABC popular vote estimates

You can't disenfranchise the caucus states just to come up with a bullshit total.

[Occam Bandage]

41. Hilarious. Hillary supporters are more than happy to disenfranchise everyone who caucused.

[NJSecularist]

54. Actually, we'd prefer for a vote in Ohio to be worth as much as a vote in Idaho. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

56. And, failing that, you'll totally discount a vote in Maine, Washington, Nevada, or Iowa.

[NJSecularist]

67. As I said, if we can get some certified hard counts, I'd add them to the popular vote total.

It still doesn't eliminate the point of my original post.

[Occam Bandage]

74. We can't. They only reported delegates, because we elect nominees on delegates. If it were on

pure votes, we'd have only primaries, obviously. Pure primaries is a good idea for next race, but you can't change the rules halfway through.

[NJSecularist]

89. If they can't vertify popular vote counts, then they shouldn't count in the final PV total. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

96. Which is why HRC's def'n of PV is a bullshit metric; it disenfranchises everyone in caucus states.

[NJSecularist]

101. The caucus system, by its design, inherently disenfranchises voters.

[Occam Bandage]

102. It's an imperfect system, but tossing all the caucus-state votes in the trash is inexcusable.

[NJSecularist]

105. If there are no certified popular vote counts, they should be thrown in the trash.

Every vote should count as one vote. A vote in Idaho shouldn't count more as a vote in Ohio.

[Occam Bandage]

108. So you're admitting that you want to disenfranchise caucus-state voters. How utterly pathetic.

[NJSecularist]

114. I want the SOS in those caucus states to certify popular vote totals.

Every vote should count, but every vote, in every state, should count as equal.

[Occam Bandage]

117. They can't at this point. So we follow the preset rules, not throw votes in the trash willy-nilly.

[NJSecularist]

119. If you did that, then every vote would not be equal.

Voters in Idaho and Minnesota would be more important than votes in Ohio and Pennsylvania.

[Occam Bandage]

122. And Hillary Clinton agreed to that ahead of time. You can't change the rules to win, and you can't

disenfranchise voters just because they don't vote for you.

[NJSecularist]

126. The caucus system disenfranchises voters directly and indirectly.

Directly, it limits turnout.

Indirectly, it makes votes in primary states such as Ohio and Pennsylvania worth less than votes in other primary states.

[Occam Bandage]

129. And discounting caucus states disenfranchises voters completely. If you don't like caucuses,

then lobby to have them replaced with primaries in 2012; don't just throw those votes (and the DNC rules) in the trash.

[eridani]

197. Fuck no. Keep fucking Diebold out of it n/t

[patrice]

169. It disenfranchises weak uncertain voters, those who don't know WHY they're supporting a candidate.nt

[americanstranger]

134. A clue for you:

You don't decide.

Now, carry on with your silliness. It truly is entertaining, in a really pathetic kind of way.

- as

[Labors of Hercules]

45. If you don't find some way to count the fucking caucuses...

Then what's the damned point of even talking about the popular vote? You can't just OMIT states because they caucused.

Jesus you people's sense of democracy is as pale as the color of your skin. :grr:

[last_texas_dem]

63. So you'd discard votes that actually led to the candidates

receiving delegates, but not votes that, at this point, haven't led to the candidates receiving any delegates? That doesn't really make any sense, but it's certainly convenient for your purposes.

[NJSecularist]

72. Hillary's campaign would prefer the candidate to be nominated with the most votes.

Rather than the candidate with the most delegates based on some arcane and oddball allotment system.

[Occam Bandage]

78. And that's Obama, unless you disenfranchise 4 states.

[NJSecularist]

84. No, actually it's most likely going to be Hillary.

As I said, get me the hard caucus vote counts and we'll certify them and then add them to the popular vote total.

[Occam Bandage]

88. ...if you don't count Iowa, Nevada, Washington & Maine, or the MI uncommitteds, that is.

[NJSecularist]

92. Where are the certified popular vote counts from those states? n/t

[Occam Bandage]

99. There aren't any. They're caucuses. So you're disenfranchising them.

[patrice]

93. Those were the rules going in. If you want to change them, you'll have to work with us, before 2012

and at the rate you're going, I'm not going to be real eager to work with folk who think like you do.

[MercutioATC]

125. "Hillary's campaign" can't change the rules in the middle of the contest.

Personally, I think our current electoral system (both primary and GE) is a joke...but everybody knew the rules going into this.

What Clinton is trying to argue is that, in the 4th quarter in a football game, she's down 10 points but she should really be declared the winner because she has more yards running. Those aren't the rules of the game.

[patrice]

75. wow, just holy fucking wow. Just keep talking you're sealing her fate with the rest of us. nt

[neverforget]

107. Caucuses done by the rules don't count but 2 states not following the rules

do count? :crazy: Cognitive dissonance? :shrug:

[patrice]

57. Omit how many times folk such as I hear from others, who are almost completely apolitical,

how certain they are that they will not vote for her. We keep hearing all of this harping about how "un-electable" Obama is, but no one is allowed to mention that IF he is, she is AT LEAST as un-electable as he is, if not more. Which side is right about the margines of un-electability?

Yes, I live in a Red state, should we be written off AGAIN? He at least stands a chance here.

[Occam Bandage]

14. Popular vote leader? That total discounts four caucus states Obama won, as well as

the MI uncommitteds (while counting her MI votes, on the basis that Obama got the uncommitted votes).

That also counts MI and FL, which Hillary herself agreed would not count for anything--until she realized she needed them.

[totodeinhere]

69. And that pretty much totally debunks the silly claim that HRC is the vote leader.

[ProSense]

15. BS! Hillary is lying, she's behind in every metric. She has never had the lead. n/t

[onenote]

19. no, the only way clinton leads is if you pretend no one in Michigan supports him

and anyone who views the situation with even a modicum of objectivity wouldn't pretend that.

[NJSecularist]

77. We don't have to pretend.

Those are what the vote totals saying in Michigan. Not one person in the Michigan primary voted for Obama.

[onenote]

104. except hrc herself defends counting MI by referring to the uncommitted vote as representing

Obama's "presence" in Michigan. So, sorry, in the real world, people who measure "popularity" measure it based on reality, not fiction. And it is utter fiction to pretend that no one in Michigan supports Obama. While I understand why HRC's supporters want to believe the popular vote (a) means something and (b) can be parsed in a way that gives HRC a lead, the delegates who ultimately will decide the nomination aren't going to play those pretend games.

Sorry.

[Mz Pip]

136. Because he wasn't on the ballot

duh.

Because he was playing by the rules set out at the beginning of this primary - which Hillary agreed to.

Oh, never mind. This is like arguing with a 4 year old over how many cookies there are in the jar when he can't count to 10 anyway. :eyes:

[shrub chipper]

201. Do you really

not understand how ridiculous your position is?

[tekisui]

20. She's not and will not be the popular vote leader.

Or the Delegate leader, or the Nominee. She's lying to you.

[Alexander]

26. Hillary lost the popular vote no matter how you slice it, even with FL and MI.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/05/clinton_cant_win_popular_vote.html

"Bottom line, if turnout in these eight races averages 76 percent of its last general election Democratic level, Clinton should garner 2,232,300 votes to Obama's 2,176,700 and gain 55,600 on him -- far, far less than she needs by any fair calculation."

Your candidate lost. You jumped onboard the sinking ship as everyone else was jumping off. Too bad.

[democrattotheend]

27. Except she doesn't lead in the popular vote, even if you count Florida & Michigan

If you count Florida and Michigan, it's 17,014,911 for Obama, 16,934,160 for Clinton. This includes estimates from the 4 caucus states that release turnout and percentages but don't release vote counts. See http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

[patrice]

106. But they're saying the only votes that count in Fl & MI are Hillary's. Don't count anything forObama

[democrattotheend]

156. But even if they give Obama 0 votes in Michigan, he still has more votes

As long as you include the estimates from the 4 caucus states that don't release vote totals. And I don't see how you can argue against that...Hillary is arguing that you can't choose a nominee with 48 states, so surely you can't choose one with 46.

[patrice]

166. Sure you can't, unless you're HC that is.Just like her IWR vote = ANYTHING for her chance at the WH.

[grytpype]

28. :eyes:

:eyes:

[chascarrillo]

29. Funny. All of the people that you cite staying in the race, all their parties lost those electiions.

Perfect example, there.

[NJSecularist]

80. Are you saying Obama isn't going to win the election?

Geez, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence...

[chascarrillo]

86. Troll away if you want to.

[Condem]

39. Why argue with this flamer?

He loves his response count. That's all he's about.

[HuffleClaw]

42. odd aint it?

i'd call the recent dramatic increase in hate from the obama camp a kind of desperation.

[patrice]

164. Yep! It's desparation alright. Desparation with folks who can't count and agree to rules and then

want to change them, when things don't go their way. Folks who tell us that we MUST vote for their candidate, but they are under no obligation to vote for ours. Yep, desparately sick and tired of Republicans.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

49. orwellian

[Condem]

53. Coming aboard when you lose, elsewhere?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

85. stop.....

[Condem]

90. Yup, didn't think so.

[HooptieWagon]

59. Hillary's campaign is not counting all the votes.

As expected.

[me b zola]

70. Please stop it

Please consider what you are doing and what is at stake.

[NJSecularist]

103. Many of you should consider what is at stake.

We can't throw away this election on some unknown commodity that can't appeal to working class whites.

[patrice]

113. LOOK at what you're saying about EVERYONE ELSE but those "working class whites"!!

THROW ALL OF THEM AWAY.

You're saying only Obama's supporters MUST vote for Hillary, but Hillary's supporters don't have to vote for Obama.

[me b zola]

173. Since the inception of rw hate radio

...and the media consolidation, and Reagan, the "working class whites" have been bamboozled into voting for repugs. This post does not merge class & race, but it does cover race:

White voters favor McCain 47-40 over Obama
White voters favor McCain 48-41 over Clinton

Black voters give Obama 87% of their votes
Black voters give Hillary 79% of their votes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5982832
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseId=1177&ss=print

That "unknown commodity" as you call him is going to be our Democratic nominee. He won't be perfect, no nominee/elected official is perfect. But he will work for our best interest, and will go far in returning the government to the people. I love the possibility of what he can do for the US. Rather than throwing stones, why not put your energy into pushing him to acknowledge your interests?

[reflection]

230. Wow, this was offensive on two levels

1) The black candidate is a "commodity", and

2) he *can't* appeal to whites (not won't, but *can't*)

----

Just accept the thrashing Obama has given your candidate and move on before you lose whatever dignity you still have. If it helps to soothe your wounds, consider this merely one of your "downs" in the peaks and valleys that are your life.

[LittleBlue]

73. Will there ever be a point where you give this up?

After he is the nominee officially? President? Ex President? Dead?

[Joe the Revelator]

76. Plenty of people who "were close" to leading in the popular vote have been asked to quit...

they're called losers.

[NJSecularist]

116. How many of them were asked to quit before the convention? n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

120. Every person who has less delegates at the end of the modern primaries has quit without having to be

asked to leave. They have class and aren't ego maniacs.

[NJSecularist]

123. Kennedy and Reagan quit at the convention.

Try again.

[Joe the Revelator]

132. What part of modern don't you understand? And last I checked Reagan was a democrat and the

republicans lost that election. Keep up the good work though...

[NJSecularist]

138. 1976 and 1980 aren't modern times?

We aren't exactly talking about George Washington and Thomas Jefferson here.

[Bensthename]

141. That is so 20th century dont you know.

[Joe the Revelator]

150. You used Kennedy as your only democratic example...the rules were MUCH different then.

[NJSecularist]

151. Care to expound how the rules were different? n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

153. For starters we still operated under a winner take all system, there were no super delegates and the

machines still ruled the conventions.

[scheming daemons]

174. And both of their parties lost the GE.... *BAD* examples.....

...

[Ichingcarpenter]

79. MrBenchley is alive and well talking his DLC illogical points

Amazing, that reality is not not one of their points

[Avalux]

256. ...

:spray:

[AllentownJake]

81. All the examples you site

The nominee lost and the challenger didn't win the nomination.

I've grown tired of you. You are now on Ignore.

[FredScuttle]

82. Please let me know when that happens

For now, Hillary is losing on all fronts....pardon me, has lost on all fronts and should preserve the last shred of her dignity and drop out.

[Bensthename]

91. SHE IS LOSING IN VOTES, STATES, DELEGATES, CAUCUSES, SUPER DELEGATES, MONEY, ENDORSEMENTS

She is losing in every category

[cd3dem]

146. And she has no penis! Obama wins that contest too!

[Bensthename]

149. I dont know about that. I'll take boobs over penis any day.

[Imagevision]

94. the popular vote leader is asked to quit the race? - DOESN'T SAY MUCH FOR hILLARY...

[mmonk]

95. I say quit the somewhat dishonesty in some of the premises of posts

and the campaign designed to inflame and she can stay in.

[Vote2008]

97. You need to be a Clinton spokesman. You are that bad.

[patrice]

127. Welcome to DU Vote2008!! Play nice, but Have Fun too!

:hi:

[mkultra]

98. yeah, she has to hit the mark chosen before the primary starts

not wait until shes behind and pick a new target.

[Condem]

110. We need only the strong for November

You, NJ, are not one of them.

[Ravy]

111. Happened in 2000. The SC agreed. nt

[Why Syzygy]

118. No one ever said this either: "Even if the delegate argument held any water..." It has always been

DELEGATES!

[Hansel]

121. Really? Because I'm pretty sure Al Gore was in 2000.

He was about one-half million votes ahead of Bush when he was "asked" to quit the race.

[Hippo_Tron]

124. This sounds a lot like "If we had the Republican system, Hillary would be winning"

Obama ran a strategy designed to get the most delegates out of the Democratic Primary System. If Clinton had run a similar strategy, she would be the nominee.

[NJSecularist]

135. Is the delegate system the best way to choose the nominee?

Especially when the popular vote total is this close.

[Bensthename]

139. Obama won by playing the game better and by the rules.

If it were won by the popular vote he would have ran his campaign differently. Oh and he is winning the popular vote by the way..

[Occam Bandage]

148. It's the system that we're operating under. If you have a better idea for 2012, then by all means

lobby for it.

[Hippo_Tron]

158. It's the system that we have

Nominees aren't chosen by popular vote, they are chosen by having 2025 delegates, which Obama will likely have soon after South Dakota.

IMO the system needs many reforms. But that doesn't mean that the rules can be changed in the middle of the process.

[onenote]

225. I did a search and couldn't find your posts complaining about the delegate system

from back in the days when it was assumed that HRC was going to get the nomination.

So was the system alright when you thought your candidate would win under it? Or did it just become something we should disregard because you don't like the result?


That's a rhetorical question, by the way.

[AtomicKitten]

131. Bush v. Gore 2000 (pssst: she's not ahead in the popular vote nor any other metric)

:hi:

[cd3dem]

133. Obama says, "Sweety, now get out of the race and let a man take care of things!"

"Don't worry your pretty self about the war and the economy"

[Alexander]

145. More fake attacks from Shillbots. Obama never said that.

I guess unless one worships at the altar of St. Hillary they must be a sexist.

[Warren DeMontague]

170. "the war"..... Which war? The one Hillary Clinton VOTED for?

No, she should worry about it, she voted for the fucking turd.

[Blondiegrrl]

137. They're demanding that Obama quit?

He is, after all, the leader in the popular vote.

(And states won, and pledged delegates, and superdelegates ...)

[EmilyAnne]

142. She's right about McCain. I look forward to having her endorse Obama when/ if he is the nominee.

She gets what is at stake with another Republican in the White House.

[proud2BlibKansan]

144. I am a special ed teacher and if you need help with Math, let me know

:hi:

[Bensthename]

147. What does that say about Hillary if that were true, although it isnt??.

[Warren Stupidity]

152. BITCH! BRAV-F*CKING-O!

There is really nothing else to say that quite captures the essence of these posts.

[patrice]

157. S/he just lays it all right out there for everyone to see, doesn't s/he? I mean, wow....

:eyes:

[DLnyc]

154. As far as I know, this is the first time anyone has tried to

connect winning a primary contest with anything other than the delegates. Devoting a whole thread to discussing this question is a whole new level of ridiculous.

You win the primary by getting the most delegates. Beginning and end. Alpha and Omega. Whole story. All she wrote. That's it. Period.

And if some of you are wondering why people are sick of the American political culture, you could start by thinking about how it feels to face every single day another onslaught of talking weasels trying to spin up to down, more to less, war to peace, theft to enterprise, bullshit to broccoli.

Quite honestly, I didn't read a single post in this thread, past one half of the OP. It's a moot point. Most delegates=win. Not most delegates=lose. Period.

[JoFerret]

251. Most electoral college votes...ditto

for the GE.

[hulka38]

155. This is completely ridiculous

[whatchamacallit]

160. Give . it . up

[apocalypsehow]

168. Jimmy hasn't called him home yet. So we'll have to endure more nonsense for awhile. n/t.

[walldude]

167. Fact: When Hillary was behind in the popular vote

you and the rest of her supporters claimed that it's the delegates that count. When she started falling behind in delegates it was "well the superdelegates really decide this" and now that she's behind in almost everything you throw in Fla and Mi and claim that it's the popular vote that counts..

As Nance Greggs pointed out so well, moving the goalposts is expensive. You sure she has enough money to cover it? Or are you hoping Obama pays for that too? :rofl: :rofl:

[jbnow]

171. First time in the history of politics that the popular vote

includes votes from states where people knew before the primary that their vote would not count in determining the nominee.

First time in history that voters who didn't care about voting on a constitutional amendment that cut property taxes that brought out property owners en masse and saw no reason to vote in a primary that didn't count and

In another state people didn't think there was any reason to go vote in a primary where the vote wouldn't count and they couldn't even token vote for the candidates of their choice and where the Governor, ex-Governor and US Senator held rallies for one candidate and were always do interviews on TV saying come and vote for her and if you aren't going to vote for a name on the ballot, don't vote

Find out that the joke was on them. JUST KIDDING ABOUT THE VOTE NOT COUNTING CHUMPS!

First time in history that said "Those primaries will not count" and then declared they must count, it's about civil rights, justice and the American way... and that they better count the way she says they better count, not in the way the rules determine or the states determine.

A lot of firsts in this

[VotesForWomen]

175. if whites were voting 90% for Hillary, couric probably would have taken a little different angle wit

with that question. or if women were voting 90% for hillary, that would also be hillary's fault and an indication of something sinister. she's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

[jgraz]

176. Shit like this is why I have no plans to let up on Billary or their shills on this site

Fucking unbelievable. I can't wait until this horrible excuse for a human being crawls back under her corporate rock.

[BlooInBloo]

177. I'll hold the rock up - you sweep.

[ShadowLiberal]

178. Hillary only leads the popular vote counting FL + MI, and not counting caucuses

[jgraz]

179. More of the Clinton shell game

And people wonder why we don't respect her or her supporters...

[Arrowhead2k1]

183. Hillary supporters are on the verge of discovering how to

twist spacetime to get things to go their way. :rofl:

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigpenguin]

192. Hi rodeodance....

Can I ask a couple little minor questions?

That's a very pretty chart, with all sorts of colors and lines and funny comments...

Um, your orange area concerns me a little bit.

2 questions.

1. So, do you not think that John McCain meant what he said about 100 years?

2. Do you truly not believe that McCain could replace a couple SC justices with enough conservatives to take a real hard look at R v. W? He's said as much! You're okay with this?

[rodeodance]

193. then vote for hillary.

[bigpenguin]

194. thank you

for not actually answering my questions. I'll be voting Obama, since he'll be the nominee...

Thanks for playing. Feel free to actually....answer my questions? I know it's a tough concept. I only asked two, and they were fairly simple.

[rodeodance]

195. I sincerely answered your questions. Its your problem if you do not like my answer.

[Name removed]

196. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rodeodance]

200. ah, now you are into personal insults. bye

......Okay, your sincere answer to my questions raises one more...


3. Have you considered taking ESL classes?

[bigpenguin]

229. I apologize.

That was a stupid comment, and I shouldn't have said it. My bad.

I'd still love an answer to the first two questions, but I'm not holding my breath.

[CakeGrrl]

188. Now she has her followers gulping Kool-Aid heavily laced with dishonest reasoning

The only reason Clinton is allowed to carry on her Magical Mystery Tour is because no one will call her on the fact that she is including INVALID numbers. They are really humoring her big-time and the pathological lying continues as she sits up there looking as earnest as she did when she lied about Bosnia sniper fire.

I've concluded that willful ignorance is the only thing that Clinton and some of her supporters are using to sustain themselves.

We've had voters from the states of MI and FL acknowledge that they were told their votes wouldn't count.

Hillary went back on her word (is anyone shocked?) and left her name on the ballot. I'm just sure she didn't mean to do that after she AGREED that votes wouldn't count. There wouldn't be any reason to do that against an agreement, right? :sarcasm:

What people like the OP cannot allow into their minds, lest they might explode, is the fact that Obama, Edwards and others would have received ballots cast in their name if people knew the votes were going to count, and in Michigan's case, if they had left their names on the ballot, which they obviously would have done if they agreed that MI was in-play. That's such a no-brainer I don't even know why it bears mentioning.

But like someone in a crowded room with a bomb pack strapped to them, Hillary is receiving kid-glove treatment in nursing her false claim. She's being allowed to keep spewing the dishonesty while the endorsements in Obama's favor keep piling up rather than having someonoe just bring out the mallet of truth and pound the reality home.

At this point, I wish someone would bring the mallet.

[hokies4ever]

190. She's not the popular vote leader

thanks for playing though. :rofl:

Kind of strange you're citing Hillary to claim that she's the popular vote leader. :eyes:

[bigpenguin]

191. Let's get one thing straight.

No matter how much bitching and moaning you all do - only one thing matters in the primary...

DELEGATES.

Not popular vote.

Not Primary vs. caucus

Not even white people.

DELEGATES.

So, answer this...

Who is leading in delegates?

Thank you.

[WeDidIt]

199. Nobody knows the popular vote

First of all, counting phony beauty contests doesn't count. If you count Michigan and Florida you must count every internet poll, too. People vote in internet polls and internet poll count as much as Florida and Michigan.

Second, you ahve no popular vote figures for four contests that did count,. Until you can produce those results, you will never know the popular vote.

[Perry Logan]

202. The Obama people don't seem to understand this whole "politics" thing.

[mrbluto]

203. It's their "turn", don't you understand that? Hillary must step aside.

By no means is that the vibe I get off of the majority of Obama supporters, but it is the vibe I get from a very vocal segment on this board. This seems motivated by the same sort of logic that compelled people to cheer when O.J. got off. Demonstration of this sort of logic is the tiny bit of grist upon which unfounded prejudice multiplies and breeds. Why feed racists the sort of anecdotal idiocy that only helps them defend unwarranted intolerance in general? I guess any group can't help but have a few yahoos, but few seem to call them on it on DU.

The sort of posters who use this logic were also saying this was "over" in February, then March, then April, now May. Maybe now it is "over" for practical purposes, but we'd never be able to tell based on what that group says, especially since they demonstrated early on they were going to say it was over no matter what the actual case was, when it was mere opinion in mathematical drag. Now they're unhappy when they're not believed.

This is the same crowd, one that is a little light on history, that thinks a brokered convention is "cheating" somehow.

You know, if they had spent their energy actually making a case for Obama, rather than against every other candidate I might be looking forward to voting for Obama, and we might be that much further along in discovering how to unify, not just the party, but the country.

Nope. Opportunity and good will wasted. (sound familiar?)

The zealous wing of the Obama party has alienated more people than they realize. Now many of us are, at best, in an attitude of merely voting "against" McCaine. I only get more pissed-off when I hear people say "oh, they'll get over it. They have no choice but to vote for Obama."

Go ahead - ask me how hard I'm going to work for an Obama ticket.

Now ask how enthused independents and Republicans might be, and what that do to the chances of cleaning up the mess the Bush administration is leaving us.

Nice work zealots.

I hope that Obama, if he is selected as nominee, wins.

But, if he doesn't, guess where I'm going to post my first "I warned you!"?

[Vinca]

204. If I used Hillary math, not only would I be wealthy, I wouldn't

have to worry about that extra 20 lbs.

[my3boyz]

205. YEAH!! Too bad she did not win where it counts...DELEGATES! Rules are rules..even for HIllary. nt

[Danger Mouse]

206. Whatever you're smoking...I'd like some of it.

:P

[thunderdog]

207. Wasn't Gore asked to quit too?

[demwing]

210. You didn't just DRINK the Kool Aide - You BECAME the Kool Aide

do you really believe this crap, or are you so desperate for a rope to cling to that you can no longer differentiate between truth and propaganda?

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rateyes]

220. Tastes better than crow. nt

[demwing]

224. So I'm in Attack /Gloat mode? Shouldn't that be "A La Mode" ?

I like pie.

[madrchsod]

212. she`s not ahead in the popular vote....

[RoadRage]

214. And by "popular vote" you mean using Hillary's "Fuzzy Math" argument..

Where things like Caucuses don't count.. and FL & MI do - but only for Clinton in MI, and nothing for Obama.

Yeah.. then sure.. after cheating to get the number you want to call it the "popular vote lead", we'll go ahead and ask you to quit.. because in REALITY where most of us live.. she's not the popular vote leader. At all.

[Exilednight]

216. Obam's the popular vote winner and no one but Hillary supporters are asking him to quit .........

you know that group. The lose at any cost candidate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

218. The Truth Is The First Casualty Of Politics

It would be fair to say Obama and Clinton are very close in popular vote and who has or doesn't have the edge is a function of what you choose to measure and what you choose to ignore and what metrics you use...

Your point about Ted Kennedy is spot on...He went into the 80 convention with approximately 35% of the pop vote and trailing by 1,000 or so delegates and refused to concede...It's arguable to this day, if he ever conceded...

[Kitsune]

222. Sometimes, I wish DU was 4chan.

Then, all of these popular vote copypasta posts could be happily sage'd off the front page and I wouldn't have to wade through 20 of them every time I come here.

[redqueen]

223. "Arcane delegate system"

:spray:

The Clintons play people like fiddles. They're as good at the game as bush. (Hmmm... I wonder why!)

Tell big huge fat whopping lies, and spin the hell out of it, and the "true believers" will not only repeat but BELIEVE any nonsense you tell them.

[NJSecularist]

231. That is what it is.

It's an arcane, complicated, unneeded system that rewards those who beat the system rather than those who win more votes.

[FlaGranny]

226. Honey,

do you stamp your feet and pout too? I've never seen such pathetic posts in my life. Rules only matter if you like the outcome? Why in heavens name do you post time after time trying to convince everyone it's good to break rules? You post nonsense repeatedly.

[Skip Intro]

227. K&R. Amazing, isn't it?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

233. It's really disgusting what Madison Ave can do

shameful isn't it

[SeaLyons]

240. K&R

:kick:

[SoonerPride]

243. No one is asking anyone to quit the race.

The OP title is wrong

[D23MIURG23]

244. Translation: The rules shouldn't count unless they benefit Hillary.

Our delegation system is what it is, and everyone agreed to it at the beginning of the race. Sometimes elections are more complicated than one person, one vote, most votes wins. You should learn to deal with it, because noone is going to change the rules just because Hillary might have won if they had been different.

[DesEtoiles]

246. more lies from the zombified Hillary bloggers

[DesEtoiles]

247. CUT. THE. SHIT.

[blue agave]

248. Obama was not asked to quit

Popular Vote Count Obama Clinton Spread - Popular Vote Total

16,104,613 49.3% 15,511,003 47.5% Obama +593,610 +1.8%


Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 16,438,697 49.3% 15,734,865 47.2% Obama +703,832 +2.1%

[jefferson_dem]

250. What's next goalpost / metric?

More votes among left-handers whose name starts with vowel and come from two-syllable states?

Get real. Nobody takes your drivel seriously anymore.

[StevieM]

253. The rules only apply if you're Hillary (eom)

[and-justice-for-all]

254. Nicely said HRC, well put and honest...

No matter who the Dem nominee is, those 34 million will in fact vote for whom ever is the nominee. Why? Because we do not want 4 more years of ShrubCo tyranny!

[Major Hogwash]

255. Hillary ran a racist campaign.

And everyone knows it. There will be a book out next year talking about all the shit that Bubba, Hillary, and her campaign spewed for the last 5 months. It will expose the under belly of the Democratic party as a bunch of ignorant racists. It will be a best seller.