Are we being hoodwinked about getting out of

[mac2]

Iraq by Senator Obama?

Obama's intervention and policing military certainly isn't get out all together. It's the spin on words which worries me. He just doesn't want us to stop having "dumb wars" of intervension.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8380

[Yael]

1. Yes, because he has been for the war all along

:freak:

[Mezzo]

29. Well he certainly hasn't said he was AGAINST it all along, no matter how you spin it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN30M6StFfk

[karynnj]

45. As Kerry said, Obama was avoiding a discussion that would

have had the keynote speaker overtly criticizing him and Edwards. Do you think that that would have helped in the unfriendly media snvironment to have stories with headlines that the keynote speaker and candidate were fighting - which they weren't. The fact was that Obama and Kerry were together on a lot. They had similar views on what to do going forward - which was NOT the Bush plan - even though Clinton, taking a play from the RNC 2004 playbook tried against Obama. Obama in fact went further than Kerry could to not only push a plan with diplomacy as the top point, but he said that while Kerry could succeed with a summit, Bush couldn't becasue of all that happened.

There is nothing in that clip that says that Obama supported the war. In fact, doesn't HRC say that her vote - which is all Obama is speaking of - was not a vote for war. (Though if HRC is telling the truth, where was see in Jan - March 2003 and why did she tell the code pink people in March 2003 that the war was needed.) Not to mention, what Obama said was true - he couldn't know what he would do in a situation that didn't happen.

[Muttocracy]

2. Are you being hoodwinked by a libertarian think tank? nt

[mac2]

7. I've listened to his speeches and feel the same way.

He never really says we will leave period. None of the Senators running for President do.

We should challenge them and say that it is not acceptable to stay longer than we already have. Years of policing and wars spreading to other countries in the area.

[Boz]

8. See #6 there are two kinds of out being referred to.

[VolcanoJen]

3. Obama is The Stealth Muslim Black Liberation Theologist Pro-War Corporate Candidate.

Totally!!!! }(

He's quite the sneak, no?

[Jackpine Radical]

5. Dammit, I just KNEW it--

I just KNEW there was sumfin funny about da guy.

[Clear Blue Sky]

4. I wouldn't say hoodwinked

but I don't think we will be out of there anytime soon. No president will want the mess to deal with if we pull out and all goes to hell (more than it already has).

[mac2]

9. I see no other way.

It reminds me of Vietnam.

[Clear Blue Sky]

32. Very much like Viet Nam.

And we left it in far worse shape compared to when we arrived. If we can't do something right, we shouldn't do anything at all.

[Boz]

6. The semantics are about fronts not OUT, We are at war in 2 fronts, preparing for a third

Obama has stated that the Iraq front is and was a dumb war front, that had nothing to do with what our goals should have been.

He has said that he would immediately stop active fighting Iraq as a front in the war. There is time involved in removing the hardware and superstructures involved in taking a front apart. That is the confusion in todays instant gratification world there isnt a button that can be pressed and we are OUT of Iraq both physically and politically, there is a button and Obama will metaphorically press it for us to get out of a war front stance and the political movement.

Hope that clears up the confusion, anyone that tells you we can get out physically tomorrow is ignoring the physical world rules of logistics, not political concepts, but raw people and material shipping and receiving.

Obamas statement just reflect that true physicality of it not just the political getting out.

[mac2]

11. Of-course we will escort our military out of there....

but we must leave as soon as possible. The logistics by this administration has been missing since they went in. It's all privitized for profit. Our military in danger everyday they are there.

[cliffordu]

10. Maybe YOU were hoodwinked. None of the rest of us were.

Funny how one can wander around thinking they have a fucking brain and then get surprised. Hmm??

Specious. Bogus. Fail

[mac2]

12. Some still are.

[cliffordu]

13. I feel for ya.

Oh, wait....NO I DON'T

:rofl:

[mac2]

16. Nope I am informed since Obama is my Senator.

[cliffordu]

21. Well....Why don't you share some of that tasty cheeze with the rest

of the class??

[mac2]

27. I'm lactose intolerant.

[KSinTX]

14. CATO seems hoodwinked by its inability to read

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/iraq/

[MADem]

15. He said he'll stay for a year and a half, and longer if "The Generals" tell him to.

Which would suit the Crown family, his major donors, just fine, I'd wager.

General Dynamics makes money off of war, not peace.

The question at the end of the piece is valid: Where does Senator Obama stand? Despite his recent speech, we still don't know. And until he explains more clearly his approach to military intervention and the use of force, we won't.

[mac2]

17. Whose generals...Bush's or his is the question not clear to me

He's a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. They've already decided on more war to destroy democracy for their own type of world government. It is Fascism.

If he is not in agreement with their agenda then he should say so and leave.

[MADem]

19. Well, not to be a smartass, but you go to war with the Generals you have, not the Generals you wish

you had. The generals who will be giving the next president advice, whosoever he or she may be, at least at the outset, will be the same generals who are running things now. The JCS is a set tour length, they don't trade them out when the President changes. The Service Secretaries submit their resignations, but the guys in uniform stay in place. Mike Mullen, who is the CJCS, and an admiral, not a general, just grabbed that gig in 2007, so he'll be around for the next President's start up. Odds are good, since a Democratic Senate did the advise/consent on him, that he'll be reappointed if he gets along with the new boss (unlike that desk jockey Pete Pace, who was a total loser and a suck up from his field grade days). FWIW, Mullen is an OK guy. Sharp and reasonable--way better than his predecessors during BushCo.

Now, if the next President dislikes the uniforms, then a little nudge and a wink is all that's needed to get them out of there. If they REALLY need to go NOW, there has to be a whole promotion/selection process to cycle out the old and cycle in the new--it's unusual for a President to make someone walk the plank before their tour is up (it happens, occasionally, if there's sharp disagreement).

Those of us who serve(d) in uniform do so at the pleasure of the Prez, and if your DD214 says so, you're subject to recall whenever you might be needed...which is not a comfort to me, these days. But maybe they'll bring back some of the talent that bailed between 2000 and 2001, or shortly thereafter. Sure couldn't hurt.

[mac2]

24. Bush has retired and picked his own generals to lead

our military. Many qualified ones resigned. It would be good to reconsider bringing them back or promoting others.

[MADem]

37. That's usually how it happens. After Clinton left, there was quite a

stampede of flag/general officers out the door. I expect to see a similar stampede in 09, no matter who gets the White House.

[mac2]

38. Yes...anyone who is a general is very political.

[DemGa]

18. Obama plays all sides with his flowery rhetoric

Something for everyone, and truly the "blank screen." Are you being bamboozled?

The truth is,nobody knows who the hell this guy is.

[cliffordu]

22. Of course, READING would be too much trouble.

Maybe he'll create a website with all the stuff you need to know. Nah, That'd be too hard.

[DemGa]

47. I've read plenty from Obama

He obfuscates with slick rhetorical skills - some find that impressive, some see right through it.

[mac2]

25. I agree.

You pick your dream candidate and he's got a message for you.

[MattBaggins]

36. or she... N/T

[Name removed]

20. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anonymous171]

23. Damn. You figured it out. Obama is rabidly pro-war, he's even discussed "obliterating Iran"

[mac2]

26. New from Obama headquarters?

[mmonk]

28. No, not exactly.

I think he wants to try and fix things which require withdrawal with force protection and an international effort on refugee relief and aid relief along with a mixed country force of some sort for stabilization and removal of combat forces.

[CaptJasHook]

30. Voting, as a Senator, to fund the war after the troops are in is not Pro War

As a veteran of the first Gulf War, I sure didn't want to be fighting over oil in the MidEast. However, once I was on the ground, my expectation was that the Senate would make sure I got out alive.

The president is the SCOTUS (Supreme Commander), he makes the policy. The Senate's job (read Hillary and Edwards) was to prevent him from sending the troops into Iraq in the first place. Once they were on the ground it would have been unacceptable to leave them without the equipment they needed to survive.

Furthermore, now that we have made this mess in the Middle East, it is going to take ALOT of planning to get out with the least amount of death and destruction. Obama and any other presidential candidate would be a fool to start explaining their exit strategy without the proper advisement of all the players involved.

Don't be so naive.

[rodeodance]

31. Hillary sent her plan to the Pent for approval and got it--for a SAFE withdrawal

[karynnj]

46. She did not send a plan in - she sent in a demand that they create a plan

and share it with people on the appropriate committee (s). She was not the first to ask for that.

[CaptJasHook]

33. #32 you are on my ignore list. I will see you after the Primaries.

[dailykoff]

34. CATO is a right-wing stink tank.

They're just gearing up to blame the neocon's Iraq fiasco on the next president. Don't take the bait.

[mac2]

39. I know that.

But read between the lines. Obama has not been very clear about a lot of things.

[MattBaggins]

35. They are both ready to hoodwink us on Iraq

Facts on the ground and all that. Except for 1812 and the Civil War we either seized territory or maintained a military presence in every war we have won. If America wants to fully leave we will have to put their feet to the fire and stay vocal. Ask them both the question if they will pledge to stop the purchase and construction of that military base sized "Embassy" in Iraq. If they refuse they have no intention of pulling out.

[Occam Bandage]

40. Yes, he's an ultraliberal DINO crypto-black-Muslim-neocon.

[Texas Hill Country]

41. yes, he is trying to bamboozle us re: Iraq.

[Dhalgren]

42. Obama has said that he wants to withdraw some troops from Iraq,

but not all. And he wants to send more troops to Afghanistan. So he is not a "peace" candidate, but a "we can fight this War on Terra better than Bush" candidate. Obama will have a "kinder, gentler machine-gun hand". People in occupied countries enjoy being killed when it is Democrats doing the killing.

It's not Fascism when Democrats do it!


:thumbsup:

[karynnj]

43. The CATO institute - Now where have I heard that name before

I've seen Obama question the Bush people on Iraq, Afghanistan etc on the SFRC - if you want go to the SFRC and look for hearings. He usually follows up on points raised by Kerry, Feingold and Boxer (who are in that order in SFRC questioning - and between them make for a rough period for people like Dr. Rice.

You may want to question why Kerry, Kennedy, Feingold, and Leahy have all strongly endorsed Obama. I seriously doubt they know less of his plan than the CATO institute does - and I serioudly doubt that they are less likely to get out than HRC. (I would prefer Kerry, but the choice is Obama or Clinton - or McCain - of the three I trust Obama the most.)

Be honest, your worry is not Iraq - where HRC was less overt in speaking to get out.

[L0oniX]

44. If you wanted to get out of Iraq completely you would have voted for Gravel or Kucinich.

:mad: