NYT Op Ed declares Obama Apostate Muslim

[rolleitreks]

Bizarre and wildly biased interpretation:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/opinion/12luttwak.html

Excerpt:

As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant.

Of course, as most Americans understand it, Senator Obama is not a Muslim. He chose to become a Christian, and indeed has written convincingly to explain how he arrived at his choice and how important his Christian faith is to him.

His conversion, however, was a crime in Muslim eyes; it is “irtidad” or “ridda,” usually translated from the Arabic as “apostasy,” but with connotations of rebellion and treason. Indeed, it is the worst of all crimes that a Muslim can commit, worse than murder (which the victim’s family may choose to forgive).

[noel711]

1. Yawn....that beaten horse died months ago.....

must be a slow news day....


even with almost one million dead in Myanmar,
and an earthquake in China...

we're beating that horse corpse...

some folks need to get a life...

[still_one]

2. under only the most radical interpretaton of Islam would that be so

I have no idea what the purpose of that article is since I would like to point out THIS IS AMERICA, where a person can choose whatever religion, or no religion he or she wants. We are not a theocracy yet

[Texas Hill Country]

76. no, this is typical. If your father is muslim, you are a muslim. if you become a xian, then you

are an apostate


whether or not anyone cares is another story.

[grantcart]

86. bullshit

Having lived many years in Islamic countries, having employed hundreds of Muslim employees, having
a brother in law that is Muslim I can tell you without hesitation that this is completely laughable bull shit.

It simply does not reflect how muslims think. It is really too tedious even to discuss.



Muslims don't approach their religion with the legal framework that simply because somebody has a biological father that makes them a muslim.


Here is some breaking news: Muslims are not idiots, although it is in the interests of some people to try and make them look like ones.

[chascarrillo]

3. The old grey mare ain't what she used to be.

What a pile of crap.

[DLnyc]

52. Yes, I am wondering how much the RNC paid the New York Pimps to

publish this crap.

[lisa58]

4. This should actually go over well for him...

...among the Christian conservatives who think it's horrible to be a Muslim - he's committed a crime against Muslims for Christianity - they'll like that.

[DangerousRhythm]

12. You know...

...that is an excellent point. Maybe they should show that article to Leonard Simpson from West Virginia and all his relations. :P

[Zynx]

23. That's actually a fair argument to make right back at them.

I would endorse that line of argumentation.

[LTR]

5. Obama's paternal grandfather was a Christian who converted to Islam

Therefore, I'm not sure if Obama Sr. was a pure Muslim. Besides, he did not observe the religion, and was basically an atheist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama%2C_Sr.

It should be noted that Kenya is a predominantly Christian country. Only 10% Muslim.

[Leopolds Ghost]

68. Muslim - Christian relations are different in Africa. Both were introduced relatively recently

And the tribal leaders in Africa adopted Islam and Christianity with a syncretistic approach, like the Germanic tribes did.

Most Muslims in Africa are "cafeteria muslims" with Christian or animist acquaintances at the very least!

[foo_bar]

6. so now he's not Muslim enough? that's a new one.

[DFW]

7. One more case of concrete proof

...that "get a life" is not enforceable in a court of law.

[islandmkl]

8. ...and he is black, too....

well, half-black...or is that half-white?

what does all this OP mean?...Obama could not deal legitimately with Muslims because they would be obliged to kill him?

lob another softball, please.

[Frances]

9. The author says that someone who leaves his

Muslim religion can be executed by Muslim law. The author says that Obama's father left the Muslim religion. Therefore, it is Obama's father who could be executed by Muslim law. And Obama's father is dead.

It seems to me that if Obama's father had already left the Muslim religion, then the Muslim religion's quarrel is with the father, not the son.

[Tesha]

15. This works like Judaism (or Monty Python, for that matter).

It's a matter of religion by descent, and if Obama's
father was a Muslim, so is Obama, at least by the
lights of certain Islamic folks.

Or, like Monty Python suggests:

"There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,"

Tesha

[BlooInBloo]

10. Then I guess all of that Wright stuff was just a joke.

[2rth2pwr]

42. No, it confirms the premise of the Op-ed.

[H2O Man]

11. The article's author

is a disturbed person.

[calmblueocean]

13. What is the NYTimes doing publishing this garbage?

This crap doesn't even belong on the opinion page. It's only purpose is to spread the false rumor that Obama is a secret Muslim, was once a Muslim, converted from Islam to Christianity... it's all the most disgusting Atwater/Rove level shit that any responsible newspaper would never let see their pages, the same way they wouldn't publish editorials from the Klan.

Disgusting.

[Tesha]

14. I see a lot of abuse heaped on the author of the op-ed, but I see little

that refutes what the author is saying or that makes any
valid argument that we shouldn't *AT LEAST CONSIDER* the
issues raised by this author.

I don't even see the author arguing that we should
dismiss Obama as our candidate because of this issue,
but wouldn't rational people at least have thought
about this, perhaps with the intetion of devising
counter-strategies when the time comes for President
Obama to negotiate with the Islamic portions of the
world?

BTW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Luttwak

Tesha

[kenny blankenship]

16. Ah yes, the originator of the phrase "Give War A Chance" NICE!

What I see is another NeoCon calling Obama a Muslim in print. That's all this bullshit is.

[Tesha]

18. FYI to all, the article from "Foreign Affairs"...

A preview from the original source:

o http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19990701faessay990/edward-n-luttwak/give-war-a-chance.html


A complete scrape:

o http://www.ciaonet.org/olj/fa/fa_99lue01.html

Give War a Chance

Edward N. Luttwak

From Foreign Affairs, July/August 1999

PREMATURE PEACEMAKING

An unpleasant truth often overlooked is that although war is a
great evil, it does have a great virtue: it can resolve political
conflicts and lead to peace. This can happen when all belligerents
become exhausted or when one wins decisively. Either way the key
is that the fighting must continue until a resolution is reached.
War brings peace only after passing a culminating phase of violence.
Hopes of military success must fade for accommodation to become
more attractive than further combat.

Since the establishment of the United Nations and the enshrinement
of great-power politics in its Security Council, however, wars
among lesser powers have rarely been allowed to run their natural
course. Instead, they have typically been interrupted early on,
before they could burn themselves out and establish the preconditions
for a lasting settlement. Cease-fires and armistices have frequently
been imposed under the aegis of the Security Council in order to
halt fighting. NATO's intervention in the Kosovo crisis follows
this pattern.

But a cease-fire tends to arrest war-induced exhaustion and lets
belligerents reconstitute and rearm their forces. It intensifies
and prolongs the struggle once the cease-fire ends -- and it does
usually end. This was true of the Arab-Israeli war of 1948-49,
which might have come to closure in a matter of weeks if two
cease-fires ordained by the Security Council had not let the
combatants recuperate. It has recently been true in the Balkans.
Imposed cease-fires frequently interrupted the fighting between
Serbs and Croats in Krajina, between the forces of the rump
Yugoslav federation and the Croat army, and between the Serbs,
Croats, and Muslims in Bosnia. Each time, the opponents used
the pause to recruit, train, and equip additional forces for
further combat, prolonging the war and widening the scope of
its killing and destruction. Imposed armistices, meanwhile --
again, unless followed by negotiated peace accords --
artificially freeze conflict and perpetuate a state of war
indefinitely by shielding the weaker side from the consequences
of refusing to make concessions for peace.

The Cold War provided compelling justification for such
behavior by the two superpowers, which sometimes collaborated
in coercing less-powerful belligerents to avoid being drawn
into their conflicts and clashing directly. Although imposed
cease-fires ultimately did increase the total quantity of
warfare among the lesser powers, and armistices did perpetuate
states of war, both outcomes were clearly lesser evils (from
a global point of view) than the possibility of nuclear war.
But today, neither Americans nor Russians are inclined to
intervene competitively in the wars of lesser powers, so
the unfortunate consequences of interrupting war persist
while no greater danger is averted. It might be best for
all parties to let minor wars burn themselves out.

<more>


Tesha

[Tesha]

48. I've now read this entire article and, while the author is pretty cynical, you have to admit...

that the current crop of Post-WWII wars have never really
ended much of any conflict, whereas WW-II actually did
produce an improved world.

The continued existence of Palestinian refugee camps is
a puzlement to me; I would have expected either some
resolution, either peaceful or violent, of that state
of affairs decades ago, butthe article provides a pretty
plausible explanation as to why the status quo just goes
on and on and on...

Tesha

[2rth2pwr]

39. No, calling him an apostate.

[foo_bar]

20. dunno about the author, but the article is agitprop

That an Obama presidency would cause such complications in our dealings with the Islamic world is not likely to be a major factor with American voters, and the implication is not that it should be. But of all the well-meaning desires projected on Senator Obama, the hope that he would decisively improve relations with the world’s Muslims is the least realistic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/opinion/12luttwak.html

Considering the two alternatives are "obliterate Iran" and "bomb bomb bomb Iran", I'd say that "hope" is pretty much a given. On the scale of things ultraconservative Muslims care about, Hillary's gender would present a more problematic religious paradox (or McCain's propensity to bomb Muslims, but that isn't specific to fundamentalists).

[Tesha]

24. And the article, of course, says exactly *NOTHING* about the author's feelings on that issue.

We don't have any information before us to conclude whether
there may be another Op-Ed upcoming on that issue as well.

Tesha

[foo_bar]

27. I disagree; even the headline is inflammatory

It would be like beginning an article on Hillary's foreign relations potential with "President Second-Class Infidel?".

[Tesha]

30. Inflamation is apparently in the eye of the beholder. (NT)

[calmblueocean]

33. So where's Hillary's burqa?

I mean, if we're going to start pandering to the most radically conservative interpretations of sharia law.

Maybe we should wring our hands over how they might react to a woman president? Considering Mohammed said that a woman's mind is "deficient" and "equal to half a man". Maybe the misogyny and sexism inherent to much of Islamic culture in that part of the world ought to exclude Hillary as a potential candidate.

Or maybe that's obnoxious and preposterous to even suggest. Which is what I believe.

[Tesha]

36. You seem to be arguing from the perspective that you think I think Islam makes sense.

I don't (think Islam makes any sense). I don't think
much of any religion makes sense (as you might
guess per my Monty Python quote in another reply
here in this thread).

But what the author stated appears to be a correct
interpretation of Islamic religious law. And yes,
by the same (alleged) lights, Clinton would suffer
the disadvantage of being female.

Tesha

[karynnj]

51. There is nothing in his biography to suggest that he is a scholar on any

religion. He also likely has had far less real contact with the leaders in that area than Senator Kerry, who chairs the subcommittee on the Near East and South Asia. Kerry has said that there was great excitement over the possibility of Obama as President. (On religion, culture and politics, I'll take Kerry's word over a Reagan hawk.)

Thanks for the wiki link.

[Tesha]

73. You're welcome!

> Thanks for the wiki link.

You're welcome -- I'm not here in this thread to force any
particular Point-of-View (so any and all data is welcomed
at least by me), but I found some of the responses here
to be a bit "knee-jerk" and ignoring some very real
subtleties that are raised by the OP.

Tesha

[eek MD]

78. What ever happened to freedom of religion?

This country is not run under Muslim law.

We believe people have the freedom to choose the religion of their choice... (or to choose no religion at all). Strange to see that the author of the article values our freedom so much that he wants to force someone into a religion against their choosing.

[grantcart]

83. Having lived many years in Islamic countries, having employed hundreds of Muslim employees, having

a brother in law that is Muslim I can tell you without hesitation that this is completely laughable bull shit.

It simply does not reflect how muslims think. It is really too tedious even to discuss.



Muslims don't approach their religion with the legal framework that simply because somebody has a biological father that makes them a muslim.


Here is some breaking news: Muslims are not idiots, although it is in the interests of some people to try and make them look like ones.

[Erin Elizabeth]

17. Man, they're really stretching HARD on that, aren't they?

So let's just forget that Obama is an adult with free will, and let's just put aside that he chose Christianity.

Whatevs. How stupid.

[2rth2pwr]

40. How is it a stretch? Islam does not care about free will.

[TahitiNut]

19. CSIS is a hawkish foreign policy "think tank" with very strong ties to the MIC.

I'm very leery of thier policy pronouncements which, although not as extreme as neoconservative fronts, leans heavily on a militarist American "big-foot" internationally.

[Eurobabe]

21. Hmm, no profile

256 posts? Might we be a recycled troll? :eyes:

I smell a pizza.

[Galway girl]

22. In that case Hama's should not have endorsed him

Obama is a Christian . the first Christians were all converts . QED

[Leopolds Ghost]

69. Actually, some Christian groups in the ME are big supporters of Hamas and Hezbollah

We have done little or nothing to appeal to these Arab and native
Christians, who, to a man/woman oppose US policy in the Middle East
and are either pacifist or anti-occupation.

Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, non-Arab Christians and Israeli Jews all
have their own politics, none of which remotely coincide with the
stereotypes of American cultural "Christianity" which has become
increasingly associated with a violent, southern, xenophobic Calvinism
thanks to the abdication of the liberal church in the US.

[eridani]

100. Christians have even been Hezbollah suicide bombers n/t

[DefenseLawyer]

25. Worse than murder, with connotations of rebellion and treason!

See he used to be a muslim, but had a "conversion". Nice work NYT. What, didn't have a good "aluminum tubes" story you could put in instead?

[Leopolds Ghost]

71. Why didn't the NYT allow an article to say this about Bush or Cheney?

"What Bush and Cheney have done is by the standards of contemporary Western ethics and religion considered worse than murder, with connotations of rebellion and treason. The fact that Bush's father may have been responsible for much of the crimes potentially committed does not negate the responsibility of the son"

[amb123]

26. Once a Muslim, Always a Muslim. BS!

1950s - "If you have one drop of nigger blood in your veins, you're always a nigger."

2000s - "If you have one drop of Muslim blood in your veins, you're always a Muslim."

SAME THING! HATE! HATE! HATE! I'M SICK OF IT!

[2rth2pwr]

41. You should take that up with the Imams.

[ImpeechBush]

56. If that is Sharia, you are simply showing disrespect to Muslims

Or were you trying to do that?

[Maribelle]

28. Ouch

Already the NYT is trying to pump up the republican mantra? Why am I not surprised?

[panAmerican]

29. What ABSOLUTE DRIVEL!!! "Conversion to" Christianity wrongly implies he used to be Muslim

Which is not the case at all... He simply chose Christianity when he grew up. He wasn't raised Muslim, so there was not a conversion, in the true sense of the word, from Islam to Christianity.

These media contortions are something else!

[2rth2pwr]

43. Media contortions? Islamic law is Islamic law.

[demokatgurrl]

31. Whaddaya mean, "declares"?

What kind of authority does the NYTimes have? If he is a Muslim under MUSLIM law, then only Muslim clergy can "declare" him anything.
Another example of a know-it-all columnist writing about something they know nothing about. NY Times ought to be ashamed of itself for most of its columnists.

[TexasObserver]

32. We're all apostates from the Catholic church.

Oh noes!! Not heretics!

[slackmaster]

34. And I am apostate from my Mennonite background

Third generation.

[Tesha]

37. Yeah, but Mennonites aren't known for choping peoples' heads off so you're safe! (NT)

[2rth2pwr]

44. The difference is the Pope won't issue a fatwa for your death.

[galledgoblin]

49. dude, what the hell?

who cares what the lunatics of the far right say, whatever their religion?

just because the fascist loons say I'm supposed to stay locked in my room in a full length covering doesn't mean I give it a second thought when I put on a tank top and go out to school and work.

Obama shouldn't give a damn what they say either.

nice avatar, I love Stevie.

[Leopolds Ghost]

72. But you can STILL be saved after your death by being posthumously baptized LDS.

[Prophet 451]

84. I checked that one...

...with a Mormon I know casually. According to him, the spirits of the dead can still turn it down. So, for example, I'm a Luciferian Satanist and I could still say "Bog off, you creepy cultists".

[Mass]

35. Luttwack... A good Reaganian...

[whistler162]

38. On page 3 or so of the comments.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Menem

it was pointed out that Carlos Menem former President of Argentina was born of two immigrates from Syria but he converted to Catholism.

:tinfoilhat: :sarcasm:But his son was killed in a helicopter crash so maybe those sneaky Muslims go after the children of apostates.:sarcasm: :tinfoilhat:

[NotThisTime]

45. Under this antiquated law most of us are muslims if we trace our lineage

I'm just sayin'

[Bread and Circus]

46. Last time I checked we don't live under or recognize "Muslim law".

[Tesha]

47. Our country doesn't but many countries in the world do.

And negotiations with those countries was, of course, the
point being discussed in this article.

Tesha

[ImpeechBush]

54. As do hundreds of millions of individual Muslims

I'm less upset about their interpretation of Obama's religion than I am that it took this long to get someone to confront it. Obama has been shrugging this one off and this is the first time he has been confronted on it by a serious source.

Why wasn't he a little more straightforward on the matter?

[Bread and Circus]

58. This is bullshit. People have a right to self determination. End of story.

[ImpeechBush]

59. So your position is that Sharia is bullshit.

That may be. Problem is, it isn't seen that way by many hundreds of millions of people.

[Bread and Circus]

62. Well, Obama is running for President of the USA. So why is this supposed to be an issue?

Pardon me if I'm not scared.

[Tesha]

64. Because, as has been pointed out *MORE THAN ONCE*, it could impede...

his ability to negotiate with certain nations that we really
need to negotiate with. It's not a deal-breaker by any means,
but it's a genuine diplomatic concern.

Tesha

[Bread and Circus]

66. Have you ever stopped to wonder just how the same people would view a woman head of state?

You know, the same sorts of folks that are cool with honor killings and all that?

Thinking one step ahead is your friend.

[Tesha]

70. Don't be (stupidly) insulating.

I've mentioned in other replies elsewhere in this very thread
that exact topic.

Either way, we're likely to pose some challenges to some
of the world's more-narrow thinkers.

Tesha

[Bread and Circus]

75. Then you have no point and might as well support McCain. Your fear mongering is noted.

Just how "afraid" do you want us to be?

[Tesha]

89. I don't want you to "be afraid" at all; don't project your fears (or your candidate's fears)

onto me. But the author raises an interesting point that
I know that *I*, for one, hadn't considered before.

Tesha

[Prophet 451]

87. Then we're buggered either way

Way I see it, neither of the Dem candidates is going to get any favours from the more hardline Islamic nations so we either deal with it as it happens, vote for McCain (shudder) or pull out the Thumb and pray for passing Vogons.

[Tesha]

90. I don't know if we're buggered, but it's clear that dealing with Islamic nutcases...

...will require some deep thought (far deeper thought than
the current administration has been able to muster, *THAT*
is for sure!).

And this article only highlights some of the many strange
considerations that must be taken into account in any
dealings we have we these folks.

Tesha

[Leopolds Ghost]

74. Hillary CANNOT be allowed to acend to the Presidency then. RTFS!!!!

RTFS = "Read The Fucking Sharia, Mother! Women aren't allowed to be head of state"
:crazy:

[Tesha]

63. Not in many pretty-commonly accepted religions. (NT)

[karynnj]

50. This is ridiculous -

The really strange thing is that he says nothing about his background as a religious scholar or as an expert on the politics of those countries. Now, I would more likely believe Senator Kerry, who has 20 plus years on the SFRC and who is currently the chair of the SFRC sub-committee that oversees that area of the world. He has seen intense interest and excitement on the part of leaders and people alike there.

I also have my daughter, who has been studying abroad in Sri Lanka for the last 3 1/2 months. She has heard and seen the same excitement and interest for Obama all over Sri Lanka. She lived for a month with a Muslim family while doing her independent study. As part of the study she has also met and interviewed many Muslims including some in refugee camps. (It says something that with people in refugee camps, when they learn she is American, the first question was about Obama - said with sparkling eyes and a smile.) Both the family and the friends of the family were very excited that Obama could become President - and the comments she repeats sound like those of senator Kerry. She did not hear Kerry as she was already in Sri Lanka. They see him as an honest good man who will change American policies. She had mentioned that his father was Muslim, but that was not what excited them. (They had NO similar excitement about HRC - they had the first woman PM in the world long ago - and yes, she was the wife of a PM. They think Bush evil and Bill Clinton ok - but his name does not elicit the same excitement.

Goggle Luttwak, his opinions on Iraq and Iran may displease many here. I don't find anything that makes him a scholar on religion. Note that the cases he cites are all people born, raised,and educated as Muslims - not people from other cultures who were not brought up in moslem families. I suspect there will be a major difference - not to mention - he is not a member of their community.

Something tells me he is a McCain or HRC fan.

[ImpeechBush]

55. This is a question of fact, not what some friends somewhere said

Is there or is there not a substantial interpretation of Sharia stating that Obama is a apostate? by substantial, I mean adhered to by large numbers of Muslims -- say several hundred million.

My understanding is that that is the case, based on reading about a number of cases where a family member was executed for conversion. But it is a question that needs to be addressed by a body with credibility and expertise, not by anecdotal tales.

I don't think anyone is saying that all Muslims believe that, nor that it should stop Obama from being elected. But it does raise the issue why Obama has refused to confront this and answer it other than to say he is a Christian.

[karynnj]

79. The examples given here all relate to people who were

born and raised as Muslims and IN MUSLIM communities when they converted - my point is that the author does not quote any scholar of Islam or Muslim culture. I would NOT want someone reporting news reports of unusual incidents within some ultra orthodox community as if they are typical of Judaism and constitute a worry for a Jewish President. (Also what happens to the child of a Jewish mom and an Islamic father - both sides claim her/him.)

He presents no evidence that Muslims would consider someone to be an apostate if he was never an observant Muslim. That's where he should be quoting someone with expertise - that he does not have. I did not claim to be an expert - there likely are Muslims here on the board who could address this. The fact is that the author is directly contradicting what some people with knowledge of the area, its religion and culture. What I was pointing out was the contradiction.

Why are you - with no proof offered accepting his view of the area over that of people like Senator Kerry. From the articles linked to, Kerry has been more accurate than he in the past.

[varkam]

53. I think that's relevant...

I mean, assuming that we're following Koranic law in this country.

[Tesha]

65. We're not (following Koranic law), at least, not yet, but many of the states...

...we do business with, negotiate with, and *OUGHT TO
BE TREATING WITH* do follow Koranic law so it might
matter to them.

Tesha

[Leopolds Ghost]

77. Ergo, Hillary cannot be president because a woman cannot rule over man in Sharia law.

[varkam]

92. Call me crazy, but...

I don't think we should be asking Islamic fundamentalists what they think of who should be president of the US and then act accordingly.

[zulchzulu]

57. I read that this morning... what a car wreck...

Actually, at the time Barack Obama was born, his father was an agnostic. He had been a Muslim, but wasn't one when his son was born.

Does that make Barack Obama's father a "muslim", even if he was an agnostic at the time.

The OP was an obvious Lieberman-type asswipe. Based on the shit he implied, I must be a Druid.

[Arrowhead2k1]

60. Why does this silly garbage,

even make it to print? Don't they have more important issues to discuss?

[L0oniX]

61. New York Times board of directors are Satan worshipers.

:evilgrin:

[Prophet 451]

88. Thanks a bunch

It's not like we want the bastards either.


(Yes, I am a Luciferian Satanist, that's a devil worshipper).

[Leopolds Ghost]

67. Muslims and native born Christians in Islamic nations have excellent relations.

The author's hypothesis is racist and stupid. As anyone visiting Iraq or Lebanon or Israel (or Arab communities in the US, half of whom are Christian) would know. Muslim and Christian Arabs / tribes associate far more readily than Catholics and Protestants here in the US. Saddam Hussein's Prime Minister was a Christian; many of the allies of Hezbollah and Hamas, to take an extreme example, are Christian Arabs.

[nichomachus]

80. The author is a neocon's neocon

He hangs out with the following group:

The current president and CEO of CSIS is John Hamre, former Deputy Secretary of Defense. He has held the position since April 2000.

The Chairman of the Board of Trustees is Sam Nunn, a former Democratic Senator from Georgia and longtime chairman of the U.S. Senate Committee on Armed Services. Its board of trustees includes many former senior government officials including Henry Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzezinski, William Cohen, and Brent Scowcroft. Its Transnational Threats Director is Arnaud de Borchgrave.

He also is an opponent of humanitarian aid and thinks we should let genocide go unchecked and burn itself out. Very strange words from someone who was born into a European Jewish family that escaped the Holocaust -- probably due to foreign intervention.

[Tesha]

91. Gee...

> The Chairman of the Board of Trustees is Sam Nunn, a former Democratic Senator
> from Georgia and longtime chairman of the U.S. Senate Committee on Armed Services.
> Its board of trustees includes many former senior government officials including Henry
> Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzezinski, William Cohen, and Brent Scowcroft. Its Transnational
> Threats Director is Arnaud de Borchgrave.

Gee, I thought we liked (or at least "tolerated") some of those people.
Bill Cohen, even though a Republican, was SecDef under Bill Clinton
and Zbigi was National Security Advisor under Jimmy Carter.

But now they're neocon trash, ehh?

Tesha

[nichomachus]

96. Whiz

Don't speak for me. I never tolerated or liked any of them. Cohen was put in as Clinton "triangulated" to pander to the right wing. Just a lesson for Clintonistas who foresee a glorious reign of progressivism from Hillary. She will pander. It runs in the family.

Brzesinski helped sucker the Soviets into Afghanistan and bragged about it. We've been paying for that ever since. That move got the Russians pissed at us, and created the jihadists.

Most of these people are the ones who helped create the hatred that fuels extremist movements around the world. They may not be official neocons, but they've had the same effect.

Sam Nunn is a right-wing corporatist who goes around posing as a Democrat. Remember that he was the one who gave Bill Clinton his first public spanking and saddled us with DADT. He's scum.

[Tesha]

107. You actually made one of my frequent points ( ;-) )

> Cohen was put in as Clinton "triangulated" to pander to the
> right wing. Just a lesson for Clintonistas who foresee a
> glorious reign of progressivism from Hillary. She will pander.
> It runs in the family.

> ...

> Sam Nunn is a right-wing corporatist who goes around posing as
> a Democrat. Remember that he was the one who gave Bill Clinton
> his first public spanking and saddled us with DADT. He's scum.

Thanks. My point (which was't especially directed at you)
was that much of DU worshipped at the Clinton altar, even
though they were behind folks like these who brought us
the troubles you mentioned. But now, when these folks are
behind a group that the jerk-of-the-knee has decided is
anti-Obama, thes epeople are suddenly cast away.

I try to maintain longer-range perspectives than that.
As, apparently, do you..

Tesha

[Prophet 451]

81. If he doesn't call himself a Muslim...

...then he ain't a muslim. That simple.

[unblock]

82. i have some particular insight to this as a jew with an adopted brother

my brother was adopted at the age of 6 weeks and was raised by my jewish parents, as a jew. we went to sunday school together and we were both bar mitzvah'ed. yet, when he went to get married to a jewish woman, a few rabbis said they didn't do interfaith weddings. of course they looked at each other and said, "interfaith? but we're both jewish!"

to which a succession of rabbis said no, he wasn't KNOWN to be BORN of a jewish mother and he never officially converted, so he's not a jew. what was he then, they could not say, for although judaism is the only religion he's ever known, apparently he's not one.

needless to say, they continued their search until they found a rabbi (reform) who did not have a problem with this. not all jews believe in exactly the same things, and some jews don't buy into the strict conversion laws that most conservatives and orthodox jews buy into.

personally, i think this is a VERY small point of trivia, with ZERO political significance other than that it's some dirt to throw around.


so while we're on that topic, mccain gave up secrets to the viet cong and eats dead babies.

[Tesha]

93. You know, I almost mentioned this exact sort of circumstance earlier.

But I figured it would just piss people off.

Tesha

[unblock]

95. apparently no one seems bothered by my response.

or interested, for that matter, besides you :hi:

[Tesha]

104. You probably should have put this in your headline

> so while we're on that topic, mccain gave up secrets to the viet cong and eats dead babies.

You probably should have put this in your headline -- *THIS* is
the sort of thing that gets attention here n DU, not reasonable,
factual, rational discussion about subtle topics. :shrug:

:toast:

Tesha

[unblock]

112. ah, i'll learn one of these days!

that or just sign it "williampitt"

[grantcart]

85. Bullshit

Having lived many years in Islamic countries, having employed hundreds of Muslim employees, having
a brother in law that is Muslim I can tell you without hesitation that this is completely laughable bull shit.

It simply does not reflect how muslims think. It is really too tedious even to discuss.



Muslims don't approach their religion with the legal framework that simply because somebody has a biological father that makes them a muslim.


Here is some breaking news: Muslims are not idiots, although it is in the interests of some people to try and make them look like ones.

[dailykoff]

94. That fat POS Sulzburger is shitting green nickles cuz his ringer got pwned.

Watching neocons squirm isn't pretty.

[McCamy Taylor]

97. This should surprise no one who has read my three part "The Press v. Obama" journal.

The MSM has been saying this for a year and half now.

[Patsy Stone]

98. Crazy people should not write Op-Eds for the NYT

Just one person's opinion.

[kwenu]

99. Good. If he is considered a muslim apostate then the Hillarybillies should love him.

He's just as damned as the rest of us non-muslims. NEXT!!

[AZBlue]

101. Did Hillary sign her full name to this or just her initials?

[hokies4ever]

102. So Obama is hated by Islam?

That's the way I interpret it. Let's tell all the Muslim-hating racists that Islam actually hates Obama. :rofl:

[Tesha]

105. Certain sects of Islam, quite possibly.

> So Obama is hated by Islam?

Certain sects of Islam, quite possibly.

Islam as a whole? doubtful.

All in all, even with the impediment raised by the
article (and I think it's a real impediment, not
a figment of someone's imagination/spin), I think
Obama will be about a thousand times better as our
negotiator-in-chief with the Islamic world than is
the current occupier of the Oval Orifice

*IF* we manage to elect a brown person to the
highest office in the land, I think it will send
an amazing message to the rest of the world that
America is really ready to change its ways and
make amends for its attrocious behavior of the
last eight years (and more). And that America
stands for more than just the hegemonic domination
of White Male Fundametalist Whacko-brand Christians
over the rest of the planet.

Tesha

[judasdisney]

103. Anyone left who will defend the NYT? For any reason, ever?

Just a few days ago there was a thread praising the NYT for their "Hillary is doing damage" op-ed.

In the face of all the damage done by the NYT for 8 years, why praise the NYT -- ever?

[Tesha]

106. I've been implicitly defending the Times throughout this thread.

I think the Op-Ed represents a valid perspective and
quite-possibly a valid set of facts and *NOT* just
spin or a show of bias for or against some set of
the candidates.

The article has caused me to think, and I welcome that.

Tesha

[mmonk]

108. Crazy. His mother was a secular humanist. I guess that doesn't count.

[Marrah_G]

109. It should have nothing to do with the race

BUT, if he does win the WH he might want to add more security when going into more radical Muslim countries.

And frankly if some RW Muslims are pissed off because we chose a President who decided to follow a faith not of his father..... I really don't give a shit. In fact it probably makes me like him a little more.

[mmonk]

110. Of course there is one problem. Obama's father left when he

was two years old. His father wasn't religous and he wasn't brought up in the faith.

[Marrah_G]

111. To clarify:

My "faith of his father' I was referring to some religions silly laws about someone being a certain religion because of their birth. It's absurd. He is a Christian by choice and what his father's faith was means nothing.

(I was totally serious about the security though, some of those zealots are completely mad)