These people are racists ......

[Stinky The Clown]

They're hideous, they're detestable, they're not worthy to breathe the same air as normal people.

They are racists. They would wish for all black people to be killed. Or at least sent back where they came from.

Some other examples of racists:





And there are plenty more.

These people, on the other hand, are not racists ......



You may not like their politics. You may not like their tactics. You may not like them. That's fine.

But they are not racists.

Here's the definition:

rac·ism /ˈreɪsɪzəm/
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Now some of you might try to parse that to make your case against them. But to call them that is to cheapen the impact of the very word.

This latest flap is worthy of criticism. You can howl about it all you want. Her words were not nice. They may even have been (actually, they probably were) pure pandering to bigoted people. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened .... by them or by others. And it will not be the last. Its called politics. Some politics is high minded and some is in the gutter. It may even be **about** race.

But it isn't racist, they're not racists.

[redqueen]

1. Yes... gutter politics... pandering to racists.

Took you a while, but you finally did say it.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. I've always said it.

I don't like them and I don't like Obama. Fans of both always take my hits on one side as support for the other.

It is not.

[redqueen]

10. This isn't about fandom, but recognizing those tactics for what they are.

Lots of people here are still in denial about that.

[Stinky The Clown]

35. More people are unbothered by it than are.

It will gain them votes or it won't.

So really, it does only get to be a big deal to fans. Most people just don't give a shit. The media has made it a terrible, huge issue. So they talk abut it. A lot. To the detriment of Clinton. Which means it might hurt her.

***Or***

It will be seen by (she is hoping, a relatively large number of) people in West Virginia and Kentucky (for whom it was intended) as the left wing liberal media ganging up on Hillary for telling the truth. Which means it might help her.

I think it all stinks.

But it *is* a valid campaign tactic.

[redqueen]

39. Gutter politics. Valid as gutter politics.

I guess lots of people still have no problem with it.

Shame, cause it's just a way for them to avoid talking about issues.

[Stinky The Clown]

56. Oh please ...... 'issues'?

Every damned issues post I've ever made here has dropped like a rock.

When was the last time you heard issues discussed on teevee?

On radio?

In the newspapers?

At your water cooler?

I am as upset by this as you. but its a fact. No one (<----hyperbole) gives a shit about issues.

[redqueen]

60. Not true.

I think people give a shit, they're just VERY easily distracted.

Trust me, you don't have to tell me...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5903490

[Stinky The Clown]

67. Reduced to vainly kicking one's own thread ......

.... and making inane replies to keep it alive ......

Yup. Been there/done that/got several t-shirts.

I rest my case. :hi:

[redqueen]

71. I still think people care.

They're just easily distracted.

Solution? Stop helping distract them. And I'm not helping by participating in another "yeah it was racist but it's not bad so shut up!" thread.

:hi:

[grasswire]

144. interesting sidebar here

After reading too many posts where people talked about how Hillary's college thesis was hidden away from public view, I posted links to Hillary's thesis and Michelle Obama's thesis.

Virtually no one read that post.

And only one person responded.

So much for people really caring about informing themselves. They'd rather flap their gums.

[redqueen]

157. I didn't see that...

This forum is too cluttered with... well... this type of thread.

[roseBudd]

155. It is not a valid tactic in the Democratic party since 1964 & if you don't get why not I can't help

you

[Stinky The Clown]

177. Why do you think I was asking for your help?

:shrug:

Reread the OP.

I am not endorsing her campaign tactics. I said so in the OP. I am also saying they are not racists.

But never mind all that. You just carry on with your outrage and I'll sit here and watch.

[roseBudd]

178. You wrote "But it *is* a valid campaign tactic." not for Democrats it isn't

[Stinky The Clown]

182. Now you've changed the ground rules. You qualified it. You said "Not for Democrats"

First of all, I am unaware that the Democrats 2008 Version Campaign Manual has that rule in it.

Last of all, by changing the equation to include only Democrats you change the math. It IS a campaign tactic. Mostly it is used by Repubicans these days. But it **is** a campaign tactic.

Which is all I said about it. Without the qualifier you added.

**With** the qualifier, we're damned close to full agreement.

[bvar22]

186. Fanning the flames of racial hatred for political gain....

..is NOT a valid campaign tactic.... not in my World.
It is grounds for immediate disqualification.

Not. This. Time.

[Solon]

45. Yeah, well, its not like either campaign has a monopoly on pandering to bigots...

Only hypocrites are the ones who can't see that.

[LostinVA]

49. Homophobes don't count

Duh.

[Solon]

54. I'm just sick of the excuses, from both sides...

and frankly neither side has the high ground here, both campaigns have been run to appeal to the lowest common denominator in people, and its simply atrocious. I don't see how any reasonable people can support either candidate's campaigns and their treatment of any minority.

[Stinky The Clown]

61. "I don't see how any reasonable people can support either candidate's campaigns ...... "

I agree with that. And it isn't about just minorities. Its about working class people. Its about seniors. Its about the poor.

None of those groups has seen/heard any damn thing but pandering from BOTH sides.

I dislike them both .... deeply.

Same vs Samer

Insincere vs Insubstantial

etc.

..... but this is off the topic.

[Solon]

75. Somewhat on topic, however, would be the conduct of DU members on this board...

I see a lot, in this very thread, who are condemning Clinton, but minimized or excused Obama's pandering to homophobes just months ago. They are hypocrites, plain and simple.

[redqueen]

76. Yeah. That is very much the case.

*sigh*

[Two Americas]

127. hear hear

A voice of sanity. Thanks.

[redqueen]

70. Bill pandered to bigots with his DOMA ad... but that doesn't count.

Hillary won't say "homosexuals" in speeches unless she's in front of the right audience, right?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

91. Shhh....Don't disturb them with facts.

Their poor little bitter brains can't take them.

[LostinVA]

160. What DOMA ad?

I'm talking about Hillary's candidacy, not Bill's presidency.

Hillary is far ahead of Obama on gay issues. I haven't seen him marching in any parades.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

175. According to the Washington Blade, he ran ads

Apparently, the editor of the paper felt it merited a mention in the endorsement. And since the Clintons run as a team, it does matter. You can't pick and choose when she gets to run on his record and when she doesn't.

"...He signed DOMA and cynically bragged about it in ads that aired on Christian radio stations during his 1996 re-election campaign...

http://www.washblade.com/2007/12-21/view/editorial/11773.cfm

[mrreowwr_kittty]

90. Clinton panders to homophobes too.

Which has been pointed out to you Obama haters repeatedly.

But I know, it's diiiiifferent when Her Majesty does it. :eyes:

[LostinVA]

161. Links please?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

162. Start here

Hillary's Donnie McClurkins

And I'm sure I don't need to link you to stuff about DOMA, DADT, and Richard Mellon Scaife.

[LostinVA]

165. Those people weren't onstage preaching against gays at a fundraiser for her

Huge difference, in my opinion.

And, DOMA and DADT were Bill's laws, not hers. Plus, you're ignoring what DOMA prevented, a consitutional amendment against gay marriage. Bill wanted gays fully integrated into the military, he just couldn't get it done. I'm sure you've heard of Sam Nunn.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

173. So proudly displaying the endorsement of one bigot, while paying another $10000 a month is okay?

Please help me to understand this. If anything, her associations are worse because hiring a homophobe to advise you, in a longstanding arrangement is orders-of-magnitude worse than making the one-time mistake of handing one a microphone for one performance. How about Scaife? He has said he thinks that gay people should be executed. Yet Hillary had a smoochfest with him to get his endorsement. I'm sorry but no amount appearing in parades or onstage with Elton John would ever make up for that.

As for DOMA, I call bullshit on Bill's defense. Here in AZ, there was a citizen's initiative for a constitutional ban on gay marriage in 2006 (narrowly defeated thank god) that got on the ballot DESPITE there having been a law similar to DOMA on our state's books for years. I know that other states' initiatives have been successful. Passing those types of laws is no protection against efforts to change the Constitution and Bill Clinton knows it. Plus he was pandering, as usual. In 1996 he made ads in Red States touting how he signed DOMA to court the fundie vote!

[redqueen]

62. It IS like one campaign doesn't see any reason to stop doing it VERY obnoxiously.

Agree or disagree?

[Solon]

68. Oh, I agree, but don't pretend that Obama's campaign holds any high ground here...

that's what I object to, hypocrisy, no more, no less. Either condemn all bigotry and pandering to bigotry by both candidates, or shut up about it. It really is that simple.

[redqueen]

73. I think his campaign DOES hold high ground

because he's not doing it day after day, himself, shamelessly.

I don't live in a black and white world like you do. I don't expect either candidate to be perfect... so I put their faults on a scale, and weigh them.

The way I measure it, he comes out on top, just about ALL the time. YMMV.

[Solon]

78. I guess, for some people, some bigotries matter more than others...

depending only on media visibility and who the bigotry is directed towards. But what the hell, hypocrisy is the hallmark of politics.

[redqueen]

80. No... for me it's nothing to do with media visibility or the victims.

It's degrees.

Obama mentions homosexuals in his stump speeches. Not just here and there... but victory speeches, guaranteed to be broadcast live on tv. That means something to me... more than his pandering gospel crap.

I could go on but I don't see a point. We all have to evaluate what they do and say for ourselves. Apparently you've done this and found them both to be equally distasteful.

[Solon]

82. I wouldn't say equally distasteful...

I'm in the Anybody but Clinton camp, but basically all that means is that Obama may be an asshole, but he's my asshole. I just don't have any expectations about him acting differently than any other politician, so far he hasn't disappointed me in this regard.

[redqueen]

83. Really? What other politicians mention homosexuals in their

nationally-televised, election-year speeches? (In a POSITIVE way... :))

Maybe I missed it before... but that does impress me as something new.

[Solon]

88. Not really new, even Bill Clinton, and Hillary, has mentioned Homosexuals...

in some stump speeches, but I did say ACT like a regular politician, playing lipservice to a minority is part of that, its whether he'd do anything positive about it after becoming president that's the question. Besides, this isn't the ONLY thing I measure Obama on. Start mentioning the issues and he's just another Moderate Democrat, not someone who would make waves after entering office.

[redqueen]

89. Of course he's another Moderate Democrat.

What other kind of Democrat has the slimmest chance of getting by the media filter, besides moderate & centrist?

Other things that tipped the scales in favor of Obama for me: DLC, open government.

[Solon]

95. To be honest, whether he was DLC or not wouldn't matter...

Oh, it would affect the power of the organization, but Obama's policy positions are, more or less, exactly the same as theirs, so the end result is the same. As far as Open government, call that a wait and see approach on my part, I'll believe it when I see it, but not until then.

[redqueen]

99. I consider the amount of power they have

to be more important than you do, then.

I also think a slim chance at open government is better than none. Hillary's already voted against it.

[Solon]

109. Most of their power is in the House and Senate anyways...

along with governorships, etc. The fact of the matter is that, being an independent, this internal strife of the Democratic party means little to me. What I care about are policies that will help people. I'm very issue oriented, that's why I supported Dennis Kucinich, his policies were far and away better than everybody else's in the Primaries, bar none. I didn't even like how he ran his campaign that much, though part of that was because the media minimized or portrayed him as some sort of radical, and that was outside his control.

Understand this, I see this race between Democrats and Republicans as a race between two conservative parties, its just that the Democrats are slightly less conservative, both economically and socially. However, this doesn't alleviate the fact that I rarely agree with them on pretty much everything. I vote against Republicans, period. I have no one to vote FOR.

[redqueen]

123. Yes... Kucinich is my ideal as well...

but he's also a politician... but since he's not so high-profile, the dirt on him isn't bandied about like it is for these two.

As for his campaign... don't get me started.

[Solon]

130. He wasn't even my Ideal, he was the only one that was acceptable to me...

far from perfect, far from ideal, but better than all the rest, so he was acceptable.

[redqueen]

135. Sorry, yes...

not ideal... but the idealest among those available for supporting, is what I should have said.

My ideal is probably somewhere in Europe.

[Solon]

145. I'm not exactly sure who would be my ideal, but this guy is close...

First, look at my avatar image, its an image of the flag of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation.

What's interesting about them is their support for ALL oppressed people, everywhere, regardless of sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. Here's what they had to say about Subcommadante Marcos, their spokesperson, when people questioned whether he was gay or not because the Zapatistas were outspoken for GLBT rights:

“To those of you who are wondering if Marcos is homosexual: Marcos is a gay person in San Francisco, a black person in South Africa, an Asian person in Europe, a Chicano in San Isidro, an anarchist in Spain, a Palestinian in Israel, a Jew in Nazi Germany, an indigenous person in the streets of San Cristóbal… He is every minority who is now beginning to speak and every majority that must shut up and listen. He is every untolerated group searching for a way to speak, their way to speak. Everything that makes Power and the good consciences of those in power uncomfortable – this is Marcos."

I really wish we had someone like this, and the group he's a member of, here in the States, that would be awesome.

[redqueen]

152. If we did...

they'd never get anywhere. And if they started to... well...

*sigh*

My hope is limited.

[Solon]

154. My hope is practically nonexistent...

frankly speaking, I hate our political system of government that traps us into voting for the lesser of two evils, and robs us from real choices, but I see no hope for change, neither political party would want to weaken themselves by giving the people of this nation a real choice on election day.

[redqueen]

156. Precisely.

BOTH parties are not going to move to a proportional representational system unless we force them.

So our choices are try to force them, or move.

Frankly, if I had the money, I'd just move.

Hope you have a good weekend, Solon, and thanks for the conversation. :)

[Solon]

158. If I could afford to, I'd move too...

Hopefully to a country with proportional representation. Nice chatting with you, I'm taking a break, I have a bruise or something underneath the fingernail of my middle finger on my left hand, it hurts like hell to type, and I would hunt and peck, but I forget about the injury so I end up typing with that finger again. Ouch! x(

[mrreowwr_kittty]

96. You just seem to hold Obama to a tougher standard than other politicians on that one issue.

You might want to do some contemplating about why that is, solon. The Donnie McClurkin thing was regrettable, to say the least, but it's not like Obama was the first Dem politician to ever pander to homophobes. The Clintons have done it very blatantly for years, and yet the LGBT community is very forgiving toward them.

[Solon]

100. Too forgiving in my view...

To be frank, I'm mystified at the supporters of both candidates in this campaign because of their enthusiasm towards both. What is there to be excited about anyways, besides getting the Republicans out of the White House?

[redqueen]

102. Hope.

We haven't all given up on it. :)

And some of us are excited to see so many previously uninvested people taking an interest.


(sorry for butting in!)

[ruggerson]

114. For christ's sake, this is a Democratic board

and you're using the word "homosexuals" just like the religious rightwingers do.

It's not particularly politically correct to use gays and lesbians, it's been the standard for over 35 years.

I don't see many people running around here talking about "negroes" and if they did, I and many others would jump on them.

[redqueen]

120. Really?

Sorry... I honestly didn't know the word "homosexuals" had gone the way of "negroes".

I only used it cause it was what he said, IIRC... also it's easier to type than "gays and lesbians".

I really didn't know it was like saying "negroes". Sorry.

[ruggerson]

126. that's okay

the religious rightwingers use it on purpose, they never use the term gays and lesbians - it's their way of demeaning gay people by reducing sexual orientation to what they consider to be a clinical class of deviants.

It's a minor point, but it's one of their tools in waging war on us.

[redqueen]

129. Thanks...

I appreciate the info... can't believe I haven't noticed by now. :blush:

[ruggerson]

133. No need

to be embarrassed - there are a lot of cultural things I'm not aware of in the latino community or the AA community, for example, until it's brought to my attention. Sorry if I jumped on you. :)

[redqueen]

137. Maybe not... but thanks again anyway.

You're making me feel some unity. It's a wonderful thing. :)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

92. You mean like this?

Hillary's Donnie McClurkins

[Solon]

97. Exactly, neither campaign is better than the other...

they both pander to bigots, I just don't pretend that either holds the high ground.

[lumpy]

153. ...." hypocrisy is the hall mark of politics".

So is pandering

[roguevalley]

187. gutter politics using race is racism in my book. remember the shit

storm hill folks made over Obama being a 'racist'. I don't recall him using code to demonize whites. Yet they use code to demonize blacks and we have to assume they don't mean it and aren't racist. I don't believe it. If you can make it pass your lips, its in your brain and heart. Don't be fooled by the fact that they don't wear sheets. You don't have to be a Klans man to be a racist.

[LostinVA]

2. Excellent OP

[PM7nj]

3. Of course they aren't...

but they are trying to appeal to them. Sad.

[Bucky]

4. I know this is off topic, but I really kinda like the color scheme on that forest green number.

Also the black robe with the red sash is pretty eye-catching. It's like fashion for today's Goth klansmen.

That solid white thing was so 80s. As in 1880s. The rainbow like diversity in today's klan is really a smart way for them to go.

[Stinky The Clown]

Shhhhhh ..... I hear they're also recruiting Catholics.

[NOLALady]

163. I like that purple.

Some of those guys could be my neighbors.

[Joe the Revelator]

5. Bullshit, when you use race to try to divide people then you are a racist

The Clintons, either always have been, or have become racists due to political realities. Either way, I expected better of them

[beezlebum]

6. donning a costume and shouting about white supremacy makes one overtly racist.

pandering and politicking to and surrounding oneself with bigoted people as a base makes one covertly racist, whether it is intentional and hateful or not.

i'm not sure what i've won when i've convinced a neo-nazi to vote for me. i've lost any dignity having gone through such a process.

[Bucky]

24. Calling the Clintons racist is bizarre, reality impaired even.

What they did--and this bothers me a lot--is they exploiting existing, subliminated bigotry in the country to sustain a flagging campaign. It was a lose-lose situation and involve a line of argument they should never have stooped to. To call them bigots would be wrong. However they did feed the lurking, semi-dormant vestiges of bigotry within our party. It was sad, it was cynical, and it was tactically stupid. In the end, thank God, it was also unsuccessful.

To call them racists is wrong; as wrong headed as the exploitative tactics they used that got them accused in the first place.

[Dr Fate]

30. Okay- what do we call it then? Evil? Cynical? Rovian? Unpatriotic?

Maybe it is wrong to call them racists-b/c it is such a powerful word-I'll bet they dont really dislike black people- but what do you call someone who uses racist tactics on purpose?

[Stinky The Clown]

44. How about "unprincipled" ...... or "unscrupulous" ..... "unseemly" ......

..... I'm sure you can up with many words to describe the behavior.

[Dr Fate]

48. Accurate. How about I call some of it "race-baiting"- is that accurate or not?

I suppose one could engage in race baiting with out being racist-according to your OP anyway.

[Stinky The Clown]

52. That's absolutley accurate.

It is also not racist.

Which is my essential point.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

87. Which makes them WORSE than racists IMO.

Racists are usually ignorant, fearful people who feel powerless.

Those who exploit racism to achieve some goal or maintain their power are the the worst kind of cynical opportunists there are.

[Stinky The Clown]

101. Not true

Lester Maddox wasn't ignorant. He was a sick fuck ... but not ignorant.

Ditto for David Duke, the other sick fuck I pictured in the OP.

And keep in mind ..... she's not been exploiting racism alone. What about the fear mongering about Iran? That's pandering to the "Ahm an Amurukin" knuckle draggers.

All politics is pandering, when you stop and think about it. The difference is that those with a strong moral compass avoid the shittiest of it. But pandering is not racism.

Which is the essential point of the OP.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

117. But I think it's possible for the worst run-of-the-mill racist to be reformed.

It has happened before. There are ex-skinheads and Aryan Nations members who go around the country educating people about racism.

As for people like Duke and Maddox, I consider them equal parts racist and cynical opportunist. It IS possible to be both.

[dcindian]

7. Photo one photo four is looking for your votes....

You hard working Americans... white Americans.

[Joe the Revelator]

8. You're glossing over the fact that the Clintons have infinetly more power.....

then the other people you pictured. When they try to divide people by using race as a wedge its actually MORE disturbing then some KKK members in Georgia.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

147. That's what I'm saying.

The OP is piling elitism on top of racism.

[Dr Fate]

11. You are saying that using code language gaged to make racists side with you is not racist in itself.

They are merely exploiting these people to make them think they agree with them on race. Er-okay.

I dont think the Clintons hate black people either- but I cant believe we are going to say that pandering to racists on purpose is the normal, usual course of events for Democratic or progressive politics.

I was really hoping that we could move on from this subject and start attacking McCain- I had really believed that the Clintons had left this tactic behind after Penn...Oh well...

[beezlebum]

16. sad and disheartening.

"I was really hoping that we could move on from this subject and start attacking McCain- I had really believed that the Clintons had left this tactic behind"

me too.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. I'm not aware of anyone saying that pandering to bigots is anything .......

..... good.

I'm certain, however, that I am not saying that.

All I'm saying is that it isn't racist.

[Dr Fate]

25. You wrote it all off as mere "tactics" and said "Its called politics."

Well, in my book, the Willie Horton & scary black man shit is not politics as usual for Democrats & progressives. This is par for the course with Lee Atwater & Rovian Republicans- certainly- but us? That is news to me.

Pandering to bigots over issues that upset bigots is not racist- that is your argument.

Again, I dont believe that the Clintons dislike black people- but these tactics are indeed based on *someones* race-hatred and seem designed to reinforce *someones* racist thoughts & behaviors.

I like you a lot and generally agree with you-but we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Ready to take on McCain whenever you guys are, as always.

[Stinky The Clown]

51. See ..... now you qualified it ......

... by saying it "is not politics as usual for Democrats & progressives."

You're correct.

But it is what I said it was ..... politics. Just not your politics.

I also think we have less to disagree on in this post than you're thinking right now.

I'm not standing up for her. I'm not defending her. I don't like what she's doing.

But I believe to my core they're not racists.

And that's really all I'm saying.

[Dr Fate]

53. Good- then we seem to agree at least halfway. n/t

n/t

[sandnsea]

31. Knowing better and doing it anyway

Yeah, it's actually worse than fear and ignorance. It's exactly the same as when Bush promised to introduce gay marriage legislation to inject homopobia into the 2004 election, with no regard to the number of people who would actually get hurt or even die due to his riling up emotions. That is exactly how revolting the Clintons are behaving right now. I don't know what you call it, but when you do something so despicable for your own self-interest, well it's worse than racist, I know that.

[Stinky The Clown]

94. Now you're crossing into opinion ......

.... and you're perfectly entitled to yours and I will not try to dissuade you or to defend them. Mainly because your view more closely matches mine does what I assume to be theirs (that it is perfectly okay to do it).

You and I part company in terming it racism.

[Indenturedebtor]

12. No they're not racist

They're just acting like racists to secure the racist vote.

[sandnsea]

13. How do you know they aren't racist?

Maybe they think Katrina worked out quite well for low income people too. You don't know what they really believe.

[Stinky The Clown]

20. Of course you're correct. I don't know that.

Were you calling them racists in the 1990s?

[sandnsea]

23. They weren't acting like racists then

Although now that I look back at Bill's welfare and labor policies in Arkansas, and what he implemented nationally - maybe he really does think black people are lazy and need time limits so they'll get off welfare. I don't know anymore.

[Bucky]

29. Oh hogwash. We've been watching them onstage for almost 20 years.

They've been fine tooth combed for 17 years. If there was a sheet in the closet, we'd have heard about it before now. They may be psychologically self destructive at moments (and who isn't?), but to suggest the Clintons felt even a twinge of satisfaction at the murderous incompetance of Bush's FEMA is absurd.

To suggest they might have felt that way is the very definition of a baseless accusation. How do I know Sandnsea isn't an undercover Nazi lurking about to disrupt DU? I can't prove you're not, but I've read lord knows how many hundreds of posts from you demonstrating the exact opposite. So I keep a clear head and trust my observations.

[dailykoff]

32. Sister Soulja, Ricky Ray Rector.

Racists.

[sandnsea]

42. lol, a Nazi??

Oh yes, I regularly make Nazi-like posts. I've heard it all now. :crazy:

I was referring to the aftermath of Katrina and the benefits some survivors got and the way some people referred to them. Based on the way Clinton treated people in Arkansas, working for food stamps, limiting prescriptions, promoting union busters like Wal-mart, I personally don't know what he really believes anymore. Based on what I've seen and putting it into the context of his entire life.

[Stinky The Clown]

77. "Oh yes, I regularly make Nazi-like posts. I've heard it all now." .... misread much??????

That's the absolute opposite of what he said/meant.

He used a literary device called 'irony'. And then very quickly added "I can't prove you're not, but I've read lord knows how many hundreds of posts from you demonstrating the exact opposite. So I keep a clear head and trust my observations."

(emphasis mine)

[sandnsea]

143. opposite of not being a Nazi

is being a Nazi. I'd like to prove you're not a Nazi, but everything I've seen demonstrates the exact opposite. I actually think he misspoke.

[Poll_Blind]

14. Bigotry is as bigotry does. And they have made their actions on the stage of history.

  Made their speeches, slung their mud, appealed to the slime and tried to convince clearer-thinking folks to do the same.

  Sorry. They made their choices. What a way to shit on one's own legacy.

PB

[Stinky The Clown]

21. Why are you aplogizing to me?

"Sorry. They made their choices. What a way to shit on one's own legacy."

I don't much give a shit about their legacy.

[whatchamacallit]

15. I'm hearing you on this, but

it doesn't justify Hillary's desperate ploy. I agree; they're not racists, they're shameless opportunists.

[Stinky The Clown]

22. We agree ........

........ pretty much completely.

[TheZug]

17. Gotta love the rusty oil drum on the right in that first pic.

And no, Bill and Hillary aren't racist. But she should sure as hell know better than to use the words she chose. It was naked opportunism, and it was ugly.

[Aloha Spirit]

38. Bill likes oil drums too.

[marions ghost]

185. snake oil in that barrel?

n/t

[ShortnFiery]

19. Bill and Hillary Clinton use race baiting from the Atwater/Rove GOP termed "The Southern Strategy"

The Clintons are WORSE, if it can be said than poor racists, because they have power and influence ... but they use it to play wedge politics ... Bill and Hillary Clinton are, at the least, BIGOTS. :grr:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oRwZQLdhEw

Adherence to the rule of law is not something normally associated with the Clintons ... When the "first black president" and his wife ran Arkansas, the NAACP sued them for intimidating black voters at the polls.

[Stinky The Clown]

28. Yes, its wedge politics. So?

Wedge politics have been around since way before the Romans painted campaign signs on the walls of houses in the streets of Pompeii.

His being termed the first black president was the result of pandering. So what?

They're pandering now. So what?

Don't vote for them.

But don't call them racists.

They're far more accurately termed 'opportunists'.

[Dr Fate]

36. There you go again Hub- characterizing this as par for the course politics as usual

When did this become an acceptable tactic for anyone else but conservatives & Republicans?

This is not the language or tactics of progressives or Democrats- we should never normalize the cynical use of racial division as part of something DEMS should be doing.

[Stinky The Clown]

79. I never said it was 'acceptable" I simply said it was politics.

I'm not defending it.

If you actually want to understand more clearly what was intended in my OP, please take a moment to read all of my replies in this thread. If not, then at least don't knee-jerkedly accuse me of saying it was acceptable. I didn't.

[wowimthere]

43. you're excusing it just because race as a wedge issue was around to use.

Democrats should not be using race as a wedge issue. That is politics of the past. Why are you and other dems still hanging onto the very worst in political theater?

[Stinky The Clown]

85. How do you figure I'm 'excusing' it?

What gave you that notion? (<---- NOT a rhetorical question)

Do you do this so you can make statement like this? "Why are you and other dems still hanging onto the very worst in political theater?"

What makes you say that? (<---- Also NOT a rhetorical question)

[ShortnFiery]

50. It makes it more VILE when you pit poor people against each other via RACE/ETHNIC GROUP

And yes, it is RACISM.

[tularetom]

26. They may not be racists but they play them on TV

They are no more racists than bush or cheney.

They are no more racists than Joe Loserman.

They are no more racists than Grampa McGrumpy.

They are no more racists than Trent Lott or Tom Tancredo.

But that isn't a very high bar.

[ShortnFiery]

37. Exactly ---> Not. This. Time.

Say "NO!" to the continuation of "The Southern Strategy."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zo6L-yELZo


BTW Bill Clinton's not the only one who can play the Tenor Saxophone. :evilgrin:

[damntexdem]

27. It depends on what they do.

Just how low they go. HRC seems to be on the road, if not at the destination.

[DemGa]

33. It's detestable what they did to the Clintons - Many Dems cannot forget -- NT

[Mags]

69. no they won't and if their supporters could see what is taking place

here, he would for sure never get another vote from them. It is so unbelivable that DU would allow this stuff against someone that is practically tied with BHO

[wowimthere]

34. The only thing missing from our former president and first lady are hoods and robes. Stop insulting

our intelligence. Listen to how they construct their sentences around race. Everyone who has a voice in her campaign uses this kind of language.

1. definition. He can't win because he's black. That was the LOUD whisper campaign.
2. definition. He can't get the white vote... then he can't get the working class vote... then it's he can't get the white working class vote.
3. definition. Tricky but it's used. Intolerance. She is annoyed at the very fact that perhaps a black man (they labeled him the African American candidate) did an end-run around her and won. How dare he. Only a black man would do such a thing as take this away from her.

Racism engenders qualities these days that are much more subtle than the hoods and robes. Obama must pass her white litmus test in order to be acceptable and since he's not white (he is half white) then this really disqualifies him from winning the nomination. It's the only way she keeps on running because she doesn't believe he should be the nominee. Being dismissive can be an act of racism much like intolerance. It depends upon the way it's used.

[Sparkly]

40. I can't believe you're getting all these arguments!!

Actually, I take that back. I can. :eyes:

[Dr Fate]

65. Well pick an argument herein and then refute it point by point.

You are welcome to start with mine if you wish.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

190. Yeah, who do we think we are anyway?

People posting opinions to a discussion board or something? The nerve of us!

[BlooInBloo]

41. Clinton is using racist tactics. Fuck her. And fuck all who support her use of racist tactics.

[shadowknows69]

46. They're not racists, they just play them in a campaign.

:eyes:

[Hutzpa]

47. Ok.... THEY ARE PREJUDICE

is that loud and clear enough for you....

Definition;

Prejudice:
1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.

3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial,
religious, or national group.

4. such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.

There, suck on that....

[ShortnFiery]

55. YES, not just evoke prejudice but DISCRIMINATE. When people with $ or Power discriminate

against ENTIRE ETHNIC GROUPS (non-whites), then it crosses the line into *RACISM.*

You have to have money and power to demonstrate (discriminate) Racism.

[Warren Stupidity]

57. "working, hard-working Americans, white Americans"

I'm still trying to figure out how that wasn't overtly racist. I guess she just misspoke.

[dailykoff]

58. That's been the hard-core message for weeks.

No misspeaking.

[ShortnFiery]

59. Lee Atwater and KKKarl Rove would term the code "dog whistle" BUT we all GET IT! eom

[Dr Fate]

63. "Louis Farrakkan" AKA "Willie Horton." n/t

n/t

[marions ghost]

184. right

exactly

[Solon]

64. A lot of hypocrites on this board, I see...

Interesting role reversal compared to the McClurkin dust up here. I guess consistency in condemning ALL bigotry is dead on DU.

[ShortnFiery]

170. Here's a diagram:

[jillan]

66. BRAVO!!! A big k & r!!

[Stinky The Clown]

104. You may regret that ......

I am saying they're not racists.

I am not on her side. She's run a detestable campaign of late. She's showing self-involved desperation, not statesmanship.

[jillan]

140. I gave you a k & r because you spoke the truth - the Clinton's are not racists.

And who has been calling them racists? People from the Obama camp.
So, I would have to say that they both have been running detestable campaigns.

[Stinky The Clown]

169. Okay ..... now .......

... we agree.

[walldude]

72. I agree. They aren't racists, but she seems to be

pandering to the racist vote. I don't like it but I understand it. Not sure if I was losing my chance to go down in history as the first woman President I'd not fight just as dirty. This is probably why I'm not a politician..

[Stinky The Clown]

105. Here here

What you just said is pretty much how I see it, too.

Shame on her.

[iamthebandfanman]

74. nah the clintons arent racist

just 1/3 of hillarys supporters are.
along with about half of the country.

[Stinky The Clown]

106. Yup ..... and she's been talking straight at them

on edit ...... I'm not sure I would use the term 'racist' to describe that many people. Bigots, maybe. Unaccepting, maybe. Intolerant, to be sure.

But probably not racist.

[ProSense]

81. "Her words were not nice...pure pandering to bigoted people. " Hooray for race baiting!

Don't you find it a wee bit disturbing that you're clarifying this for a leading Democrat for president?

Hillary's race baiting is despicable and indefensible

[Stinky The Clown]

110. No one is cheering it on, but if that furthers your argument, have at it.

Oh ... now I get it ..... flogging your post.

Okayfine.

[ProSense]

125. You didn't answer my question, it wasn't rhetorical:

Don't you find it a wee bit disturbing that you're clarifying this for a leading Democrat for president?

[Stinky The Clown]

183. Its very disturbing

The tactics suck.

But they're not racist.

They're many things. None of them good or complimentary. Worst is that they're just pure, self-interested desperation. Would she have bagged it on Sooper Twosday when she **should** have, we wouldn't be be talking about this because it never would have happened and her (and his) 'legacy' would be in much better shape.

But there ya go. It is what it is.

But what *they* is not is racist.





I think a lot of the vitriol in this thread is directed at me because many of you think I'm a Clinton supporter. I'm not and never have been. But since I am also not an Obama fan, it is hard for many to comprehend that someone could actually dislike them both.

I do.

I see this race as a contest between Insincere and Insubstantial. Neither of those choices would be at the top of my list.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

84. It is precisely your mindset that allows racism to persist.

Racism is not confined to people in hoods in sheets. Oftentimes it's subtle and sublimated. It's also so structurally entrenched that it can often seem normal and natural.

I suggest reading some of Tim Wise's essays for some insight on how racism and inequality continue to pervade our society. The "response" to Katrina should eradicate any doubts people have that racism is still a big problem in this country and it's NOT just perpetuated by people burning crosses.

http://www.timwise.org/

[Stinky The Clown]

111. I suggest you know who you're talking to before attempting to school them.

Define my 'mindset' (<-----NOT a rhetorical question)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

124. Your mindset, as I understand it, is that people in hoods and sheets are racist.

While people in nice suits with a "D" by their name cannot be.

I suggest you provide some evidence that you are somehow privy to the innermost thoughts of your fellow humans, before you make definitive statements about who is, or is not, a racist.

Edit to add: You really need to get over yourself. You write some pretty good posts on DU but you're not God.

[Stinky The Clown]

164. Damn, and here I thought my high school class picture put aside any doubts as to my godditude

[Stinky The Clown]

176. Now a serious answer

Three men in the OP are pictured in 'Nice Suits". All three have or did have a "D" after their names. Two are racists.

Your argument?

And you do not understand my mindset. You're doing as you apparently are chastising me for doing ..... jumping to conclusions. The difference is, I have more to go on than a computer bulletin board in assessing which men are racists and which are not. You, on the other hand, are ascribing traits to me based on your own internal biases and filters. You don't like me and therefore consider it okay to call me a racist or racist sympathizer.

I call that stupid at best and maybe even bigotry. It is certainly bias and hardly open minded and progressive.

But you just carry on with you fandom.

[BlooInBloo]

86. Ah yes - the good-cop-bad-cop groups. The former supporting the latter covertly.

[Stinky The Clown]

113. That chip on your sholder affects you objectivity.

Fuck off.

[BlooInBloo]

131. Oh NOESS!!! A supporter of racist tactics told me to fuck off! Whatever will I do????

:rofl:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

159. He seems bitter, doesn't he? nt

[Stinky The Clown]

167. "Can I get an amen from you? Please Mr. PutHimInHisPlace?"

What are you? A child needing an attagirl?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

174. Um.....

This is DU? Where people tend to joke around like that?

Dude, either grow a thicker skin or step away from the keyboard for a while.

People disagree with you. It happens. Even to the Almighty Stinky.

[Stinky The Clown]

180. Eat your heart out

You can't have me.

[Stinky The Clown]

166. "Supporter of racist tactics"

Project much? Must be a bitch to be have to look good to your fellow fan club members.

You're such a child.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

189. Awww....poor widdle Stinky got his fee fees hurt.

:eyes:

Geez, you got a bunch of recs for your dumb post so what's your problem?

Some people are never satisfied.

[Stinky The Clown]

191. Who are you?

Mini Me?

You're like a little dog who bits ankles.

Or a two year old who has a new toy.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

93. No, the Clintons are not racist

[ShortnFiery]

148. Yes, they only play, The Southern Strategy Race Card ... REPEATEDLY from the Onset of this Campaign.

Clinton Acolytes' Racist Attacks
Black Star News Editorial
December 19th, 2007

http://www.blackstarnews.com/?c=117&a=4012

So the Clinton campaign decided to use the race card. A senior campaign official, Billy Shaheen, the co-chairman of Hillary Clinton’s campaign in New Hampshire, warned voters that Obama might not be the suitable candidate because were he to win the Democratic nomination, those nasty Republicans could bring up the fact that Obama has admitted to using marijuana and cocaine in his youth. Might the Republicans not even ask whether Obama had also been a drug dealer?

This was clearly playing to the deep seated stereotype that some white people harbor—of Blacks as natural born criminals and drug dealers. Notwithstanding the fact that most of the means of shipping drugs into this country –the private and official planes, the air strips and airports, and the foreign connections, and officials approving entry into the United States— are not controlled by Black people. Although Senator Clinton apologized for Shaheen’s comments, and the official resigned, it is hard to believe that his comments could have been pulled from thin air. We wonder what else is in the playbook.

The racist onslaught continued this past Sunday when former Nebraska Senator Bob Kerrey, pretending that he was praising Obama said he hoped Obama would play a role in a Clinton Administration by reaching out to Black youth and Muslims around the world. Kerrey added: "It's probably not something that appeals to him, but I like the fact that his name is Barack Hussein Obama, and that his father was a Muslim and that his paternal grandmother is a Muslim," Kerrey, who is currently president of the New School in New York City, said. "There's a billion people on the planet that are Muslims, and I think that experience is a big deal."

As in the earlier case, Kerrey also issued an apology to Obama. Yet, in reading his comments, does anyone really believe this was not pre-meditated and malicious and in fact, racist by suggesting, in essence, that Obama is only sufficient in reaching out to Black youth and Muslims?

[Major Hogwash]

98. Allow me to disagree.

Bubba is an out and out racist, while Hillary hasn't come fully out of the closet yet.

But, you're entitled to your opinion.

[frickaline]

103. I agree, given the definition of the word, I can see no justification for this labeling k&r

She's sleazy, yes. opportunistic, yes. But I defy anyone to use the actual definition of racism and apply it to this situation.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

107. At this point they're just annoying. n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

115. I agree

They should have invited themselves out on Sooper Tuesday.

[Jed Dilligan]

108. David Duke looks like he's had work done.

I wonder if he makes his surgeon double-sterilize his knives after working on Jacko.

[Dr Fate]

116. It is a fact that he has. He wanted a more "Aryan" nose.

Tough-guy white supremist or a girly sissy who obsesses over his image in the mirror everynight- you decide! ;)

[Jed Dilligan]

119. I really wonder if they go to the same guy (him and MJ)

There is an eerie similarity in the result--causing David to look like a pedophile and Michael to look like a racist.

[Dr Fate]

121. OMG-I needed that belly laugh- thanky thanky!!

;)

[NOLALady]

168. We figured he had the nose job

because the original looked "black".

He couldn't run the risk of anyone questioning his "roots".

[ShortnFiery]

112. Are Clinton's Racists and Divisive? It Appears So.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/02/are-clintons-racists-and-divis.php

Hillary Clinton and her campaign are either racist or they sure are acting like it.

Since the campaign began, Barack Obama has had to contend with lies being told about his religion through emails, telling folks he was a Muslim and reminding folks that his middle name is Hussein.

During the campaign, talk shows and news stations have supposedly ‘mistakenly’ reported Barack name as being Osama instead of Obama. Most recently Chris Matthews was discussing the Obama campaign while a picture of Osama Bin Laden was being shown to the right of Chris. They later apologized.

The Clinton campaign has also attacked him personally, alluding to his race and beliefs. Her surrogates went after the idea of whether he was “black enough”.

[Stinky The Clown]

118. You do realize I'm not argiuing with you, right?

But don't let that stop you.

[lumpy]

171. Mistake to believe every thing you read on a blog.

I don't think it is Hillary Clinton's doing that Matthews used Obama's name in an unfair manner.
I don't know about e-mails regarding Obama's religion or allusions to his name or ethnic background as I have not seen any or know of any, I sincerely doubt Clinton has been evolved in any of that, no moreso than Obama has been involved in the filthy things his supporters have said about Clinton on this forum. If you can show me proof where Hillary Clinton personally has attacked Barack Obama alluding to his race and beliefs then I might go along with your obvious mindset about her integrity.

[GetTheRightVote]

122. I think the words were poorly stated but I do not think they are racist

though I wish even the media would stop pushing this button so much.

We know racism exist but not everyone who says white 'whatever' or black 'whatever' are racist.
Logically we all know this to be true.

[mohc]

128. They are not racist, but some of their actions are.

Everyone to some degree is racist, everyone. Being "a" racist is quite different from by racist. In the former racism is a defining quality of the person, in the latter it may just be a fleeting moment. I certainly would say that racism does not define the Clintons, and therefore they are not racists. Whether the latest tactics that Clinton's campaign, herself included, is using qualify as racist is an arguable point. Some may see it as just politics, but for me it crosses the line to racial prejudice.

[dailykoff]

132. Question: If two big kids bully a little kid, but only because they want his lunch money,

does that mean they're not really bullies?

Answer:They are bullies, and the Clintons are a pair of racists hacks.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

146. How about the teacher who encourages the big kids to bully?

Is the teacher a bully too? Or just using "teaching tactics you might not like", to paraphrase the OP?

[dailykoff]

150. Well, if she only does it when she wants a promotion,

I guess she's really not a bully, is how the thinking seems to go. That's a great example.

[alphafemale]

134. My gawd. They look like demented lawn gnomes.

[ruggerson]

138. you should see what the men look like

[grasswire]

149. wait a second here

those stripes at the bottom remind me of the stripes that Rehnquist sewed onto his Supreme Court robe during the impeachment trial of President Clinton!!!!!!!!!!!!! Was he sending some kind of a signal?

[grasswire]

136. :::standing ovation for Stinky:::

Thank you.

Just like John Kerry was twisted into a caricature of himself.

Just like Max Cleland was twisted into a coward.

Just like so many others were swiftboated by attacking their strong points...

So the Clintons have been twisted into "racists" to neutralize them.

The acceptance of the propaganda is chilling. People apparently want to believe anything they are fed that fits their narrow view and worst instincts.

That's what freepers do. It's anti-democratic and un-American.

[ShortnFiery]

142. Oh yes, The Clintons are above sin.

:eyes:
:eyes:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=24768&page=1

The Clinton Brand of Racism
by Armstrong Williams
Posted: 02/01/2008

Bill Clinton’s comments about the role of race in gender in this election were hurtful, disgraceful, disgusting, and downright racist. By claiming that his wife would lose South Carolina because people only vote for people who look like them, he diminished all of us. He put South Carolina voters in a little box and questioned their intelligence, integrity, and beliefs. And worst, he made this extraordinary man’s campaign about something it should not be about -- the color of his skin.

It was 45 years ago when Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. had a dream, “that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.” I believe Dr. King is looking down at us today and smiling, knowing that his dream has nearly been fulfilled because people of all races, religions, genders, and ages are voting for the person they think can do the job best and it just so happens that that man is black.

Obama got where he is today by hard work, intelligence, and commitment to the cause. He should be judged by his ideas, his experience, and his record. Nobody -- not Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, men, or women -- should be using race as a reason to vote for or against him. The fact that Bill Clinton would even bring this issue up is dishonoring the lives of so many people, including Dr. King and Barack Obama, who have worked so hard to remove race from the discussion.

After handily winning South Carolina, Obama handled himself like a true gentleman. He kept on the high road, and focused on his platform of change, hope, and optimism. He said in his victory speech, “I did not travel around this state over the last year and see a white South Carolina or a black South Carolina. I saw South Carolina. The choice in this election is not between regions or religions or genders, it’s not about rich versus poor; young versus old; and it is not about black versus white. It's about the past versus the future."

[grasswire]

151. you're quoting from Human Events?????

A Scaife-funded POS publication?

Please.

[Hippo_Tron]

139. Okay first of all, you owe me a keyboard for the picture of the guy in a purple Klan robe

Secondly, I agree.

IMO this is less about Hillary and more about the MSM trying to be divisive.

[Forkboy]

141. Those aren't racists.

They're extras from the new Hobbit movie. That's Frodo right there in the green robe.

Why do you hate Hobbits?

[dchill]

172. They aren't racists...

they just play them on the campaign trail. There is no a lot of difference.

[gbrenna]

179. I disagree

I think Hillary's remarks were in fact racist. It seems they used to (before becoming champions of the white race-ie white working class hard working white people) talk the talk, but I didn't see them walk the walk even in the 90's. Bush has more black people in his government, and he is a Republican. You couldn't make comments like the ones Hillary and Bill have made without have some underlying racist tendencies.

[Pushed To The Left]

181. K&R from an Obama supporter! n/t

[marions ghost]

188. schmantics....

"pandering to bigoted people" is not "racism"....:eyes:

Yeah sure.

And those 270,000 misleading robocalls to blacks in North Carolina right before the election? Y'know, the ones that came from a Clinton-connected voter ADVOCACY organization? What was that??
Oh, not racism? Just using a time-honored old political trick, that's all?

But anyway thank you for putting this post out there so readers can see some of the ways that this kind of sly appeal to the racist vote is excused and tarted up as merely 'opportunism'...it's interesting how one group can be shocked while another group can't even see it.

Your KKK rainbow regalia photo is quite a find. Kind of a multicultural bunch these days, aren't they? The old white was so much more symbolic...