Where is your Loyalty?

[last1standing]

I understand loyalty. It's a belief that one stands by those they support - till the bitter end, if necessary. It is the ability to say "I am there for you" when no one else seems to be. It's the bond of love and respect that should be cherished.

Loyalty is also being willing to stand up for a friend when someone talks rubbish about them. It is being the surrogate who works in their interests when they are not there to do it themselves. It's the willingness to take one on the chin for someone else's mistakes.

But there comes a time when loyalty can turn to blindness. It can foster anger and resentment toward others. It can keep us from seeing reality even after the dreams have turned to nightmares.

And then there are conflicting loyalties. Do you support a person or their vision? Do you work for a candidate or that candidate's plans? At what point does your loyalty to a friend stop being loyalty to their dreams?

I won't go into specifics on this campaign, but I ask that each person who reads this takes the time to think for a moment about loyalty and then maybe post their thoughts.

Personally, I am loyal to the ideals of a progressive nation that cares for the people who have built it. For me that comes before any vessel that carries the message.

[last1standing]

1. Should I have insulted people instead?

:shrug:

[Cary]

2. WE, THE PEOPLE

I am loyal to WE, THE PEOPLE.

I believe that Barack Obama is loyal to WE, THE PEOPLE. I have some doubts about Hillary Clinton, although I want to believe that she is loyal to WE, THE PEOPLE. Generally Democrats seem to me to be loyal to WE, THE PEOPLE.

"Conservatives", on the other hand, are loyal to their facile ideology. Many, I think, labor under the misguided notion that if only we followed their ideology it would benefit WE, THE PEOPLE.

I don't pretend to understand that though.

[last1standing]

4. Thanks for a thought out response.

I was beginning to think there wasn't a single person here who cared about a thread that didn't call someone "evil".

[billyoc]

3. My Local, my International, and the AFL-CIO, in that order.

The only people I will ever trust.

[democrattotheend]

5. Which union do you belong to?

[billyoc]

17. Transport Workers and Ironworkers.

I'm an AFL-CIO delegate for the TWU here in NYC.

[last1standing]

7. What if your Local started to side with management?

I know mine did at one point.

If it came to a choice, would you hold true to the ideals or the institution?

[billyoc]

18. I'd force the offending leaders out.

I've done it before.

[last1standing]

19. Then I'd say you're more loyal to the ideas of the Local than the Local itself.

Institutions always end up letting us down. People like you who bring them back to where they started are incredible. Seriously. :)

[billyoc]

21. Well, I'm flattered. I suppose you're right about the ideals vs. the institution. nt

[last1standing]

23. I've known too many people who go along because the instituion tells them to.

They forget what their own ideas and dreams mean to them because they've given them over to someone else to keep. The repub party did that when they turned their leadership over to the military industrial complex Eisenhower warned them about and again when they gave power to the hatemongers and televangelists for votes.

The Democratic party has done it as well, but certainly not to the extent of the repubs.

[helderheid]

6. My planet.

[last1standing]

8. Good choice.

And thanks for being one of the very, very few who wants to post something other than hateful remarks in this forum.

[helderheid]

29. I'm afraid I've had my moments

:blush:

[last1standing]

32. Haven't we all?

Sometimes it's hard to stay cool when you're being called every hurtful thing a person could imagine.

[Lilith Velkor]

9. I'm with you, except for the 'progressive' bit

I don't even know what the fuck that word means anymore. I call myself a socialist instead.

[last1standing]

11. To me "progressive" means the opposite of "reactionary".

To be reactionary is to dismiss change and progress. Reactionists use a knee-jerk mentality to everything. If something isn't broke, don't fix it.

Progressives look for solutions to problems regardless of ideology and try to resolve issues long term instead of the band-aid approach favored by reactionaries. For example, I favor a balanced budget because that leads to long term ecomomic well being. However, I also favor socializing necessary social functions like the police, military, medical care, etc... One would be considered right wing, while the other left wing. However, both would create a stronger, more stable country.

That's why I don't like to see "Liberal" linked to "Progressive". Liberals can be just as reactionary as Conservatives.

[insanity]

10. To the highest bidder

Hah.

Really my loyalty lies with my ideals and the people who shaped them.

We the people is not just a good rhetorical turn of phrase, they are words worth fighting for until the bitter end.

[Umbram]

12. I don't know what I'm loyal to anymore as far as politics are concerned

Watching both of these mediocre candidates get defended no matter what they do/state has certainly made me less 'loyal' to this party.

I can honestly say that I'm growingly ashamed to call myself a Democrat.

[last1standing]

14. That's why I posted this thread.

Political candidates are nothing more than vessels who carry our ideas. When they no longer do so, it is time to let them go and pick up another who comes closer to working for our dreams. Obama wasn't my first choice, or my second or third, but he's the best choice I have to see that, if my dreams can't come true, at least my nightmares don't either.

If that changes I will leave him for a better vessel.

[Umbram]

16. That's pretty much where I stand at this moment. (nt)

[lumpy]

13. Regarding loyalty in politics, as a Democrat I am loyal to

that party, the only party so far that represents my ideals for a better society. FDR and JFK along with many many others who have not held the presidency are my political heros. FDR and JFK acted on their promises as best they could. I could name a host of others such as Howard Dean who represent the ideals that every US citizens should be striving for, and that is what is best for the citizens of their country. Unfortunately we have had candidates who have promised the moon without any idea of how they are going to accomplish those goals, so it becomes buyer beware of lofty rhetoric. I look for the meat in any stew that might be cooked up.

[last1standing]

15. We've had some good runs at the white house, but the media keeps tripping us up.

Dean would have been a brilliant president. I think his tenure at DNC chair has proved that. He's willing to stand up to powerful people and keep his integrity. I am still loyal to him because he still supports the values of the modern Democratic party.

This cycle I was loyal to Edwards until he dropped out. After that it came down to the candidate who I felt was campaigning in a manner that I could respect the most.

[last1standing]

20. I really thought there were more people interested in real discussion here.

My opinion either of DUers or of my ability to write a thoughtful post is too high. :shrug:

[LSK]

22. Truth

[walldude]

24. My loyalties lie first to my family..

then to the soldiers who are living a true nightmare, while people here whine about how terrible they have been treated. :eyes: Then to the Iraqi people who did nothing to deserve what we are doing to them. Then to the rest of the people in the world. Then to the planet we live on. Then to the ideals of honesty, hard work, and compassion that I try to live my life by.

I guess then my loyalties would fall with Obama. Should he lose, Hillary would be next on the list.

[last1standing]

27. Very cool.

And I can't disagree a bit.

[Two Americas]

25. loyalty

I am loyal first and foremost loyal to the working people everywhere; secondly to the traditional principles and ideals of the political left and the Democratic party, as representing the best approach to effect the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Thirdly I am loyal to those who also support and work for the realization of a strong and effective political left.

Only after those, and within the context of and subordinate to those considerations am I loyal to any political party, and only after that am I ever loyal to any particular politician.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

26. As an American

I am loyal to the Constitution of the United States.

I am loyal to the real meaning of patriotism.

As a human?

I am loyal to the planet.

As a mother and wife I am loyal to my family.

I do my best. I try to be fair. I come up short sometimes since after all, I am a just a person.

If the person who represents my political party veers off course from upholding the Constitution then they have lost my loyalty.

I have no god. I do not believe in such nonsense and so it has no place in my realm of loyalties. In fact, I resent having to even consider which god an elected person chooses to follow because people with religious beliefs find it easy to use their religion to ignore the fundamental principals of the Constitution. They can pretend to place their basic loyalty in a sky being. G.W. Bush says he takes his orders from his God. That is the basic reason he has been able to unceremoniously destroy the Constitution one piece at a time. All in the name of his god.

[last1standing]

28. Beautifully stated.

:hi:

[quakerboy]

30. I am loyal to the vision

I may love the person, but always the vision will win with me. People can change, they can fall away from what they were and what they were about.

I remember when I was in grade school, my Father refitted the basement of our home so that when the local homeless shelter, which had male only accomadations, had a family come through, we could let them stay there in safety. Now, years later, he lives with my mom in a large house they just got, filling the empty rooms with "stuff", while their original home sits empty, in case they decide to move back someday. I love my dad, but I honor and try to follow the idea of what his life had been about.



For me, it is far more troubling when I have those ideals, those visions, that end up conflicting. Standing up for the "little guy" and the "truth" are a part of my makeup. But what happens when those two conflict?

[last1standing]

31. Truth is more relative than people like to think.

The truth is I'm 5'6" but am I tall or short? The answer, and the truth, is different depending on who I'm standing beside. I know that's simplistic but then everything is compared to what could be.

I usually don't look for the truth, I look for what does the greatest good over a long perspective. I'm a big fan of the truism about rising tides and all that. :)

[quakerboy]

33. In other words

the truth is relative to the little guy?

So, truth is relative. Who the "little guy" is is also relative.

I agree with what you say, in generality, however, I think that even your measure is just as relative. What is a "long perspective"? Is that 5 years? 30 years? 1000 years? How do you determine greatest good? Is it based on happyness? Healthyness? Survival? Equality?

[last1standing]

36. Everything is relative.

That's why we each need to figure out for ourselves what is truth, what is tall, what is long. We also need to figure out what to base our assumptions on. I'd hate to have it any other way. :)

[GetTheRightVote]

34. I like your sentiments and believe a united party with Obama as Pres and Clinton as VP would go

a long way towards this, but I will pull the Democratic lever either way.
For they have the values that are important to me.

[Indenturedebtor]

35. Well here's my order of priority

Wife, Family, Planet, Truth, Justice. In so far as this country is concerned I am loyal to her ideals, not her history or her people perse. Without the ideals of this country, as laid down in the constitution, America is just another collection of crap flinging monkeys.

[Blarch]

37. Country and constitution should always be first.

Without it we are left with nothing.

Your wife, family, truth and justice wouldn't be around without our constitution.

[LWolf]

38. I am loyal to ideals, to principles, to issues, and to my word. n/t

[stillcool]

39. "To thine oneself be true"...

I am loyal to my word. I am loyal to those who have earned my respect, and respect me. I am loyal to my belief in good.

[JerseygirlCT]

40. You said in your last sentence

Just what I was going to say. In politics, it's not about loyalty to a person, or even a party. It's about loyalty to ideals.

[last1standing]

41. I hope others see that and understand what it means.

Too many of us wrap our dreams and ideals into a person and expect them to never fail us. That just isn't reasonable or fair to the other person.

[JerseygirlCT]

45. It's not. Maybe it's age - but I'm not the type to "fall" for the person

head over heels. I need to like them, and feel excited about their possibilities. But no one is going to cause change alone, and no one can make things better alone.

Which actually, is one of the things I had heard from Obama early on, and liked.

[nomorewhopper]

42. i don't feel loyal to the democrats or any candidate

i do feel that one of our candidates is acting like a child by refusing to accept reality

[Hatchling]

43. From my earliest political thoughts

I have been loyal to the democratic party.

My other loyalties are a mishmash of my ideals and the love I have for others.

But my party loyalty has been tested almost to the breaking point. I was fast becoming disillusioned with the Democratic Party prior to the primaries. It just did not seem to be the Party I originally signed up with. Too many things to go into, but it seemed it was no longer the party of the "underdog". When did Liberal become a four letter word?

The Primaries elicited the first excitement in politics I have felt in a long time. What a fine group of people to represent us! But viable candidate after viable candidate slid to the way side. No not slid, pushed! I watched the M$M and the Democratic Party destroy a beautiful field of candidates.

When it came down to two, I chose. And she is being pushed out as well. I won't go into all the terrible things I believe have been done to her. You've heard it in a hundred other threads. You don't buy it, that's okay. I want it to go to the convention. But we've already been told it will be stopped on June third. Why bother to have a convention in the first place? It's just a fancy party?

But my loyalty to the Democratic Party is stretched thin. This isn't a threat, merely what I plan to do. If Hillary isn't on the ticket, I will change my Party affiliation to Independent that very day.

My very last bit of Loyalty to the Democratic party will be to vote for Obama in November. The last sentimental homage to a party that once represented me but no longer does.

[last1standing]

46. What about you and your beliefs?

I hope it isn't too late for you to see this because I'd like to talk about this.

I really don't feel that much loyalty to the Democratic party, myself. If there was a better, viable alternative I would take it. However, I am loyal to my beliefs and morals. I'm loyal to many of the principles the Democratic party still stands for such as equality, reproductive rights, and social welfare. I do believe that both remaining candidates will work to ensure those principles remain in existence for all of us so I will vote for either one.

Do I miss Edwards in the campaign? Of course I do, just as I missed Howard Dean in 2004. I think that our best advocates do get pushed out and we are left with only the most commercially viable choices. But in November, I will have to choose the vessel for my ideals that best suits my beliefs and so I will choose Obama. I see that you will do the same.

So my last question is do you feel that a republican is likely to advance your ideals or would you go some other route in future?

[Solon]

44. I'm loyal to my family and friends first, my principles second...

and nothing else, period, after that.