I am so tired of hearing about Florida and Michigan

[virtualobserver]

Beyond the fact that they did it to themselves, I want to know why these states are so special that they get to thumb their nose at the rules.

Once that precedent has been set,in the next election we could see 40 states move their primary before Iowa. What would be our argument against it? We've decided to actually enforce the rules this time?

Hillary's hypocrisy on this issue is almost unbearable.

First, she assures Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina in a pledge that she will not "participate" in Florida and Michigan. Now the Clinton Dictionary has two words with no particular meaning........is......and participate.

Now that the DNC rules have no meaning, and it is known that there are no restraints, I look forward to the first primary of the 2012 campaign.....perhaps Florida and Michigan could schedule it in January of 2009.

[DrDan]

1. I am not sure where you are from, but

if Florida or Michigan scheduled their primary in 2009, why would you care?

[virtualobserver]

2. because if there are no guidelines, states will begin leapfrogging each other

it will be chaos.

[DrDan]

4. there are 50 states - plus Guam and PR

There will be 52 sets of results. That is manageable by anyone with a laptop and EXCEL.

This sounds to me like the old argument the right-wingers use when arguing same-sex marriage - "there will be chaos - people will be marrying their dogs".

Just more fear-pandering.

[virtualobserver]

8. since I described the chaos of states leapfrogging each other to be first

your response is nothing but a smear.

[DrDan]

9. a smear? What does that mean? Who did I smear?

What chaos is there? Please explain your chaos theory.

[virtualobserver]

10. this is a waste of my time

[DrDan]

13. exactly - and mine as well - there is no "chaos" argument to be defended

[virtualobserver]

14. since you don't consider states leapfrogging each other to be chaos

what further point is there to discuss?

[Bucky]

3. Agreed. Both states suck.

Wait, no. I don't think that at all. Why would I even type such a horrid thing? Actually, I don't think there is any "Beyond the fact that they did it to themselves." They simply are suffering from self inflicted wounds.

But this country and this party are big loving families. When the prodigal runs off and screws up, he doesn't quit being your brother. They may be heavy right now, but they're still our brothers. Eventually I'm sure they'll be seated and be allowed to vote in the convention. It will take some time and some negotiations (although the current Michigan deal looks like it could happen quite soon), but we'll take them back in.

It's in everybody's interests to be foregiving. And then to go on together and fix this broken primary system.

[virtualobserver]

5. this isn't about forgiveness, it is about setting a precedent that rewards a state...

that defies the rules, and a candidate that tries to game the system.

[DrDan]

7. and exactly how is the state rewarded?

I live in Florida and voted. I do not see how, from my perspective, anything different would have occurred had the DNC agreed to seat the delegates earlier.

What is the reward in voting early or voting late?

[DrDan]

6. the voters did nothing except vote

the party leaders are the power-grabbing politicians - along with the other power-grabbing politicians from the DNC.

Why do you allow treatment of the voters as second-class party members. Punish the party leaders - withhold funding, do not allow their them to participate in national matters. But let the voters vote - and count the votes. That is what the charter of the party says is to happen.

[virtualobserver]

11. I would have listened to all of these arguments before the vote

This is only about Hillary, she was willing to sign the pledge when it suited her needs, and just as willing to wail about "disenfranchisement" for the same reason.

[DrDan]

21. no - it is more than Hillary - I am NOT a Hillary supporter

but I strongly believe ALL D-voters deserve an equal voice in candidate selection. For me - that is more important that whether my candidate wins. I personally would not be satisfied unless my candidate was chosen fairly - by a vote of all the D party members.

[Apollo11]

15. Strongly agree

Howard Dean has repeatedly said that it would be wrong to punish millions of voters for decisions that were made by a small number of politicians. He has also said that he hopes it will be possible to find a solution that respects the rights of voters in Florida and Michigan.

Unfortunately, some of the hardcore anti-Hillary folks here on DU didn't get the memo. Or they didn't want to get it! ;-)

[DrDan]

19. "don't want to get it" - Exactly right

Win at all costs. Ignore the long-term costs in terms of voter disenfranchisement.

[virtualobserver]

22. Why did Hillary sign the pledge not to participate?

[DrDan]

23. I am the wrong person to ask - I would say it was not well-thought out

[virtualobserver]

28. actually it was very well thought out- she was afraid of alienating Iowa,NH

[DrDan]

29. well - not very well thought out if it came at the expense of Florida and Michigan delegates

[Bake]

55. She signed a pledge not to CAMPAIGN, which she honored.

Obama ran TV spots in Florida, in violation of the pledge.

Bake

[DrDan]

20. "don't want to get it" - Exactly right

Win at all costs. Ignore the long-term costs in terms of voter disenfranchisement.

[PassingFair]

24. Or NOT VOTE....

because we KNEW it was an INVALID election...

Counting the "votes" from an INVALID election
is NO solution.

Michigan should be split 50/50.

AND our superdelegates should be STRIPPED of their status
for this round.

The DNC added two rotating state slots to
try and spread the early slots around, but
there WERE AGENDAS afoot to front-load in
favor of HC.


How'd that work out for you guys?

:crazy:

[DrDan]

25. 1.7 million did vote in Florida - there was another issue that was key to be voted on

that was a couple of times more than in 2004

lots of voters . . . probably pretty representative.

And again, I am not a Hillary supporter. I just happen to believe everyone should vote - and should have an opportunity to vote - and be heard.

[PassingFair]

30. I do too, in VALID elections.

Florida and Michigan were in violation and
INVALID.

[DrDan]

31. and against the charter of the party - that assures all D voters

an equal voice in candidate selection

that is where the violation was.

[PassingFair]

47. They could have held a caucus at any time.

They still can.

[DrDan]

53. why? there was a primary.

[PassingFair]

54. It was not a valid primary.

Jeez.

[DrDan]

61. jeez . . . of course it was

it is just that the power-hungry DNC wants to penalize the power-hungry state leaders - so they have decided to ignore the results.

The votes were legitimate. The voters were serious in their voting.

It is just the leaders of the party - both at the nat'l and the state level - that are out of touch.

[PassingFair]

63. In Michigan...

we were AWARE that we would lose our delegates.

The major candidates WERE NOT on the ballot.

How were the results "legitimate"?

:crazy:

[DrDan]

64. I can't speak for Michigan

the candidates were on the ballot in Florida

[PassingFair]

65. The OP states that they are tired of hearing about Florida AND Michigan...n/t

[DrDan]

66. if that were true - why did the poster start the thread

[PassingFair]

69. Because the HC campaign won't stop trying to cheat. n/t

[DrDan]

70. I am not a Hillary supporter - but I certainly do not believe she is trying to cheat

nor is she a racist as she has been accused on this site.

[PassingFair]

71. I do.

I believe she was promised the nomination by her
DLC cronies.

I believe SHE believes that her ends
justify her means.

:crazy:

[Bucky]

57. I guess you want a perfect world

Good luck finding one. In this one, we need to wrap up our imperfect nominating system, hold an imperfect election, and try to fix the perfect fuck up Bush has made of the world.

[DrDan]

62. nope - not a perfect world

I would just ask our party leaders - at both the state and nat'l level follow the charter. I says ALL party members have an equal voice in candidate selection. Simple.

They - the leaders - are so busy grabbing power that they are screwing millions of voters - and don't even see it.

Well - it is time we had some leaders that will treat all equally.

[Tyler Durden]

52. Forgive SHIT.

We don't owe ANYONE an apology, and we are sick and tired of hearing about how it's all our fault that Dean doubled the penalty called for, and how Michigan Team Obama torpedoed the redo at the last minute.

FUCK prodigal. You ain't SEEN prodigal. We TRIED the last time it came up, and what did we get? Same ol' "Corn Belt" and "Granite Face" bullshit.

The best estimates now place Michigan one shade toward blue from pink. And this is DNC DEAN AND THE DLC DEAL BUSTERS fault. Not ours.

[davsand]

12. I'd like to see Obama unload this problem on the DNC.

I honestly think this entire mess could go away if Obama stood up and announced he'll abide by whatever the DNC and Dean decide regarding the FL and MI delegates. That way Obama is out of the debate and it becomes Hil-v-DNC.

It isn't like the DNC can take away his nomination because Obama has won. I see no way the party can "take" the nomination from him as long as he plays nice with the boys and girls.

Frankly speaking, Obama would be better off with some distance on the entire issue, anyway. IF the DNC pisses off voters or party officials in either state there would still be a chance Obama can go in and work with them in the General.

:shrug:

Seems like a win / win IMO.


Laura

[virtualobserver]

18. I agree, and that has been Obama's position for months

But I don't like Hillary's attempt to taint the outcome

[davsand]

27. Strategically it just makes sense for him stay out of it.

Right now and in the General Obama needs the DNC a hell of a lot. Makes no sense to piss them off when being nice only helps him.

Right now the DNC needs Obama a whole lot more than they do the second place finisher. They are also in the position that they can't really follow their own rules and still give Hil what she' been demanding. I think Obama is safe however the DNC comes down because they don't really want to screw the nominee over publicly.

It just makes so much sense for him to play it this way. Take the high road and you never have to wonder if you screwed up--ya know?



Laura

[Apollo11]

16. DAM RIGHT! CUT 'EM LOOSE! Rebellious bastids! That'll teach 'em some RESPECT!!

:sarcasm:

[Tommy_Carcetti]

17. If you're tired about hearing about us, there's an easy solution to it....

Count our votes.

[virtualobserver]

26. if this was a fair election, I would agree to that

when it is announced to the voters prior to an election that it will not count, the vote is invalid.

[PassingFair]

32. Not to mention the candidates pledged not to PARTICIPATE.

How can the result POSSIBLY be valid, when
there were NO PARTICIPANTS?

[virtualobserver]

33. Hillary's behavior on this issue is one of the reasons that I strongly began to oppose her

I'm tired of having to explain the bad behavior of Democrats.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

34. But why were the voters the ones being punished?

Why not just go after the people who violated the sacred DNC rulebook that nobody cared about until just recently when it became convenient to care about?

[PassingFair]

35. Right, there should be no party rules.

It should be a free-for-all.

I plan on voting in the General Election next week.



:eyes:

[virtualobserver]

37. I prefer to vote tomorrow, maybe two General Elections could be held, to accommodate us both

[PassingFair]

39. Of course!

You would be DISENFRANCHISED otherwise!

:hi:

[Tommy_Carcetti]

44. Sarcasm is your friend.

Of course there are rules, but there are also just punishments. As in punishing those who have actually done something wrong, instead of punishing those who have done nothing wrong. The latter is what occurred.

[PassingFair]

45. The "primaries" were invalid.

The states invalidate the results.

PUNISHMENT is not part of the equation AT ALL.

The states KNEW that they were holding invalid
primaries, and that their delegates would not
be seated BEFORE they ran them.

Seriously, what did they THINK would happen?

It is FUBAR.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

48. Really? Then when did the DNC set the alternate "valid" election for me to vote in?

I'm sorry, if you are given only one chance to vote, you vote then, ask questions later.

That the DNC grossly overreacted to the situation is not my fault.

Funny that I had to go to my regular precinct, pull out my official voters registration card, vote on the official voting machines for all of this, for the Democratic candidates of my party. And that I didn't get to vote 5 times for my favorite candidate like they do on American Idol.

How is my vote being declared meaningless not considered punishment, may I ask?

[PassingFair]

50. Michigan could have held a caucus AT ANY TIME...

and not violated the rules.

JUST LIKE WE DID IN 04!

[virtualobserver]

36. they were punished by their own representatives in their respective states

and they represent the people. Prominent Hillary supporters were pushing for the move. They created this problem.

I don't hear any Hillary supporters attacking Jennifer Granholm in Michigan or any of the Democrats in Florida who voted 115-1 for disenfranchisement of their voters.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

42. But the Florida democrats didn't vote to disenfranchise Florida voters

The DNC did that. They could have choosen some other form to punish the state party officials/represenatives without stripping the delegates.

Instead, they choose to collectively punish people who didn't deserve to be punished.

[virtualobserver]

56. what would you propose- public lashing?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

59. Stripping the state's super delegates (who are not bound by the primary vote)....

....fining the state party, witholding funds from the state party, if any of the officials are on any type of national DNC committees removing them from their position.

Any number of reasonable measures which Dean and the DNC could have taken.

Instead, Dr. Dean decided to swat a fly with a baseball bat. And it's Florida's voters who took the brunt of the hit.

[PassingFair]

60. They DIDN'T care.

Florida in particular, said that it was
more important to "go first" than it was
to have delegates at the convention.

Renegade representatives in both states
BLEW IT for their constituents.

Have you written to them?

I have.

[helderheid]

38. Can anyone answer WHY they didn't follow the rules? I just don't get it.

[virtualobserver]

40. What I heard, at least in Michigan, was that it was felt that even a non-binding vote

would influence the race.

[PassingFair]

41. They belive that "going first" is the only way to have impact.

Specifically in Michigan, my Congressman, Levin
wanted full-scale primary campaigning here, in
order to extract promises from potential nominees
that would be favorable to rust belt states and
INDUSTRY in particular (not to mention having to
deal with our UNION power).

It is a noble cause.

The act of breaking DLC rules to get it was
a HUGH mistake.

The voters did not want to play chicken with
our votes for the sake of "being first", but
the state party, et. al. did it ANYWAY.

Bonus was that many of our representatives,
including Granholm and Stabenow, are DLC,
and took advantage of the situation to try
to front-load the primary season in her favor.

Gross.

[avenger64]

43. Yeah, like, for real, this democracy stuff sucks so bad ....

... I mean, like, letting everyone vote. And why don't they all just have caucuses where party insiders can make deals for their votes? I mean, Obama wins all of those, so they have to be cool. Huh-huh. I mean, the main thing is, like, gaming the system so Obama wins, right?

[PassingFair]

49. Just like Dean won caucuses?

The fact is that the DLC attempted to
FRONT-LOAD the primary season to have
a Clinton juggernaut.

They didn't think they would lose caucuses,
they expected it to be wrapped up after
SuperTuesday.

They acted like the 'puglican party.

Backfire!

EPIC FAIL that will go down
in history!

[Buzz Clik]

46. Well, they aren't going away.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

51. And they do vote in November, mind you. n/t

[TexasObserver]

58. Agreed. They'll get in, but they won't impact the nomination.

They went over the wall, now they have to be punished.

They've been a massive distraction, all because two states had some assholes who decided they could thumb their noses at the other 48 states.

[Dinger]

67. Do You Have Any Concern (For Lack Of A Better Word) For MI & FLA In The General Election?

If Obama gets the nominaion? Is it possible that the voters in those two states might be upset at the party who kicks them to the curb?

[TexasObserver]

68. Agree. It's like a high school football team where Biff and Skipper got kicked off for cause.

"But we need Biff and Skipper when we play GOP High School for the District title!!"

If it had been two kids who never got into the game, no one would say a word, but Biff and Skipper?! We need them!

Bill and Skipper were bad. Biff and Skipper disobeyed the coach and the school district. Biff and Skipper lost their chance to play in the big game. End of story.

[janet118]

72. Compromise turned down by Clinton campaign

According to this http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=5&docID=news-000002719785">article in Congressional Quarterly Online, the Clinton campaign has turned down a tentative compromise put forth by Michigan Democratic Party.

Democratic presidential hopeful Hillary Rodham Clinton on Thursday rejected a compromise plan to seat Michigan’s delegates to the national convention that would give 69 delegates to Clinton and 59 to Barack Obama .

“This proposal does not honor the 600,000 votes that were cast in Michigan’s January primary. Those votes must be counted,” Clinton spokesman Isaac Baker said.
-------------- snip -------------------------
The Michigan Democratic Party’s Executive Committee on Wednesday had endorsed the 69/59 plan offered April 29 by a group of senior Michigan Democrats including Sen. Carl Levin , Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick , UAW President Ron Gettelfinger and DNC member Debbie Dingell.

Elizabeth Kerr, a spokeswoman for the Michigan Democratic Party, said the Clinton campaign’s assertion that the votes “weren’t honored” was “incorrect.”

“This proposal honors the result of the January 15th primary but also takes into consideration that Obama’s name was not on the ballot,” she said.

So, for the want of a mere 8 delegates, Clinton is willing to toss out the Michigan votes. This does not sound like the reasoning of a candidate who wants this to be settled fairly or cares about the voters.