Let's talk about sexism and respect for a moment

[tavalon]

I heard two interviews today and I'm going to juxtapose them for illustration. The first was with Keith Olbermann and the second was with Senator McGovern. I noticed in the first one that Keith kept talking about Hillary and Obama. After the third time he mentioned it, I asked my husband if he had noticed that Keith used Hillary Clinton's first name but Barack Obama's last name? He hadn't but then he listened and sure enough, it happened a fourth time. It's a very subtle form of sexism and disrespect. Tonight as I was driving home, I heard an interview with Senator McGovern regarding his decision to move his endorsement from Senator Clinton to Senator Obama. He mentioned Hillary and Barack a couple of times and each time used both of their first names. That seemed reasonable and not the least sexist. It was balanced and made it clear that McGovern knows both of them personally and when he mentioned who he had spoken to in the Clinton camp, he mentioned Bill.

I remember a number of months ago making an agreement with myself that I would match the candidates names, using first for both or title and last for both, sometimes even initials but it would have to be for both. When I realized that lately I've been occasionally calling McCain, Senator McCain, I made the decision that I would from now on address each of our candidates by their title and last name and when we start going after the Senator on the other side of the aisle, I'll come up with some cute, derogatory nickname for him, unless I'm actually discussing policy differences and then I'll use his earned title.

Anyway, I would hope each of you would consider the subtle ways in which we dig at the candidates just by the imbalance in how we address them. No one would call Barack Obama "boy" and neither should we diss Senator Clinton by addressing her by her first name while using the other candidates last name. In each case, we are dealing with an "ism". Let's not go that low with our own candidates.

[ruby slippers]

1. But, I thought the accepted/preferred name WAS Hillary....

didn't she prefer that so that it gave her a distinction from Bill? Or am I dreaming....

[tavalon]

3. I don't know,

but as a nurse, I am quite familiar with the power imbalance that is kept in place when I'm addressed as "Terri" but the doctor is addressed as "Dr. Whomever". I generally use doctors first names and if they have a problem with it, I tell them I'll call them "Dr. Whomever" as long as they call me "Nurse Avalon". I've only had one take me up on it and it's always a consciousness raising for all involved in the discussion.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

6. Clinton is an unclear term because of the tenure of the Clintons in the WH.

[tavalon]

9. Senator Clinton is definitive

Last I checked, Bill Clinton wasn't ever a Senator. I think he held some other position in national politics.

It's the gender disparity that's the problem, using a woman's first name while using her opponent's last name is the denigration I'm discussing.

[ruby slippers]

58. Of course, if they use Senator, but when discussing "the Clinton's" you

don't know who is who, yet this is supposed to be only one person's campaign...not co-Presidents...

[FrenchieCat]

15. Hillary made it a big deal that her first name should be used.....

If you haven't noticed her banners, you should look at them sometimes.

Also, She said she was "our" girl. Remember?

[tavalon]

16. I don't want "a girl" or for that matter "a boy",

I want a President.

[FrenchieCat]

22. Tell her that!

Cause she said it.

[SoCalDem]

30. she said she was our gal..or was it girl?? I forget

[DevonRex]

53. Her bumper stickers say HILLARY. All her campaign signs say

HILLARY. All her campaign buttons say HILLARY. SHE chose it.

[TahitiNut]

55. Exactly. It is NO DISRESPECT to call a person what they call themselves.

Her campaign signage is ALL "Hillary" ... and his is ALL "Obama." Fuck these contrived, idiotic pseudo-PC arguments!

[Bright Eyes]

2. Why is it sexist to call someone by their first name?

A tad disrespectful, yes.

But then again, her campaign signs do almost always say "Hillary" and not "Senator Clinton".

[tavalon]

4. It's the imbalance that is the problem.

Feel free to call her Hillary as long as you call him Barack. And yes, she is subtly playing into the poor little girl meme with having her first name so prominently displayed on her signs.

[ruby slippers]

5. that is what I mean....she prefers Hillary....and besides it

is more sexist to call her Mrs. Clinton than Hillary Rodham (and forget the Clinton, right?)

[NewHampshireDem]

7. I respectfully disagree, pretty much for the reasons others have stated

I usually refer to her as HRC or Hillary. When I refer to her as Hillary, it is because I don't want to confuse her with her husband by calling her 'Clinton.'

I don't refer to Obama as 'Barack' because, well, I usually end up typing it 'Barak' and I certainly won't refer to him as BHO, since IMHO the H is oftne used as a subtle dig.

On Edit: And, for obvious reasons, I don't refer to him as 'BO'. :)

[tavalon]

10. I just keep it even

HRC = BO
Hillary Clinton = Barack Obama
Senator Clinton = Senator Obama
Clinton = Obama (that one has the obvious problem with it)
Hillary = Barack
Hill = Barry (frankly, I don't know either of them personally, so this one isn't one I would use)

[John Q. Citizen]

8. I would suggest that Senator Clinton stop using the slogan Hillary 08 because she is disrespecting

herself.

This is from Sen. Clinton's web site.
www.HillaryClinton.com "Elect Hillary President of the United States. Contribute today!"


Don't contribute or you are promoting disrespect and sexism. Don't support Senator Clinton's disrespecting herself and setting a bad example for females of all ages everywhere.

Speak out now! Tell Senator Clinton to get some self respect and cut the crap!

And thank you tavalon for pointing this out. Woman and people who reject sexism must let Senator Clinton know we will not tolerate her campaign's attempts to objectify women!

[tavalon]

11. Well, I made my decision early on and clearly she doesn't take campaign advice from me

Too bad because it's free!

[hokies4ever]

24. Your advice sucks

Her campaign is behind in pledged delegates, total delegates, contests won, money raised, popular vote...and your best advice is for her to change her slogan away from 'Hillary for President' after she worked so hard to humanize herself and portray herself as a fighter? I'm an Obama supporter, but even I think that the 'Hillary for President' slogan was a great move by her campaign.

[tavalon]

31. Wow, you really aren't good at this reading comprehension thing, are you?

Try again. Read slower. It might help.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tavalon]

33. That isn't what I said

Try again. Read my first post very carefully.

[hokies4ever]

36. Your Hil-logic is pure idiocy

It is NOT a form of sexism or discrimination to refer to Hillary as 'Hillary' since that is what she has DEMANDED to be called. If she would have had 'Clinton for President' then people would refer to her as such. That's the mistake you've made. You fail to realize that she is referred this way ONLY because she demanded to be called this way. Why must I educate you on this obvious fact? Did you hear people calling her just 'Hillary' before this campaign season began? NO! Only after she went through pain-staking trouble to be called 'Hillary' did 'Hillary' overtake other names for her. Olbermann always used to refer to her as 'Senator Hillary Clinton' until Hillary started her successful campaign to become known as 'Hillary'.

But please, continue on with this thread. Not like there's anything else important going on in the world. :rofl:

[hokies4ever]

23. LOL!

Hilarious. :rofl:

[TragedyandHope]

12. A personal note

I have been tending to use "Hillary" in many posts here because it's on all her signs. Her own branding is "Hillary for President," "Hillary 08," "Women for Hillary" etc. Many of her supporters here also seem to use it ("Hillary is 44"). "Obama" is on all his signs. In a way, it's like using "Coke" instead of "Coca-Cola."

I do alternate between Hillary and Clinton for variety, but sometimes it can get confusing since there are two Clintons and I may be discussing both of them at the same time. I also mix in "Bill" and "Barack" every now and then.

I don't know if it's more okay for her supporters, but not others, to use "Hillary" because they're somehow on friendly terms with her.

I admit, there may be a different standard for the media. I'm sure I have seen other newscasters use "Senator Clinton" more frequently.

[mamalone]

40. me too..... nt

[casus belli]

13. Tell it to her yard signs...

Baracks's say Obama, Hillary's say Hillary - there's nothing nefarious going on. That's just the way they have chosen to market themselves.

[tavalon]

14. Well, it didn't work on me

But then, as I've said before, as a nurse, I am very familiar with the gender power games.

[casus belli]

17. You also have to consider...

that when you use Clinton without using Hillary, you could be talking about her husband as well. In fact, that is very likely the reason she chose to present herself as Hillary as much as anything else - to distinguish herself from her husband.

[tavalon]

18. As I said above,

call her Senator Clinton. Her husband hasn't ever been a Senator.

Honestly, I see that I'm fighting an uphill battle here, since she herself branded herself as just a girl, but I don't think she does feminism any favors with that. Too bad because she is brilliant and doesn't need to dismiss herself (though she does need to dismiss most of her worthless campaign staff and even her bigmouth husband).

[hokies4ever]

25. Does Hillary love women as much as you do?

:rofl:
After all, she is being sexist against herself. :eyes:

[sandnsea]

19. At least once a week since she announced

somebody has posted some reference to the shameful sexism of using the name that she chose to stick on her bumper stickers and buttons and signs and brochures as she further reminded us that she is "our girl".

[tavalon]

20. Well, I guess nobody needs to post it this week

I have it covered! ;)

[hokies4ever]

26. Do you reject and denounce Hillary's sexism

for disrespecting her own gender by embracing the use of her first name?

[hokies4ever]

21. Completely disagree!

I too call Hillary Clinton 'Hillary' and Barack Obama 'Obama'. I think that was a big success of Hillary Clinton, to brand herself as 'Hillary'. This is a change election, plus she needed to come out on her own two feet and distance herself from Bill Clinton. One of the few successes of her campaign's strategy in my opinion. Hillary has made it clear that she prefers to be called Hillary. Even her banners say, "Hillary for President." It also humanizes her a little bit more and is part of the reason she's been able to develop a gritty, fighter image.

Just checked her website and even it has, "Hillary for President." Your logic is on VERY shaky grounds. :rofl:

[99th_Monkey]

27. Hint: There are TWO "Clintons" in this race, speaking out on the stunp. ~nt~

[quakerboy]

28. I am with the greater chorus on this topic

I find the over focus on her clothing or voice much more disturbing than the use of her first name. That was her choice, not mine. Or so I am lead to believe. In fact, very early on in the campaigns, I was privately berated by a particularly outspoken Hillary supporter for not calling her "Hillary", under the rationale that I was dehumanizing her by forcing her husbands name on her. Given that, and her campaigns almost omnipresent use of Hillary for all their slogans and gear, I do not feel at all troubled about calling her Hillary.

[SoCalDem]

29. Takes too long to keep typing all that stuff

Obama's faster to type and so is Hil or HRC..

No offense to her.. I would dislike her just the same if I called her "Her Royal Highness" or "Mizzz Hillary", or "Mrs. William Jefferson Clinton"..or "Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton"..

as for Mccain?? he's just grandpa :)

i seriously doubt that any of the campaigns care all that much what I have to say about them,. and anyone who does not "like" it, can hold their breath & turn blue, ignore me, or reply..multiple choice :)

[Alexander]

34. Are you for real? How many official campaign signs are there that just say "Hillary"?

I guess Senator Clinton is a sexist, then?

[hokies4ever]

37. Does Hillary love women as much as you do?

:rofl:

What a stupid assertion that calling Hillary 'Hillary' is sexist. I completely agree with your post!

[Justitia]

35. I use what the candidates print on their signs - "Hillary" & "Obama", aka "Punch" & "Judy"

j/k - it's late. I'm getting punchy.

[Raine]

38. Tell Hillary to take her first name off her signs

if YOU don't like it. :shrug:

[ShortnFiery]

44. Allow this old woman a story that may help enlighten?

When I was a truly cutie pie, boot butter-bar LT, my brigade sent me to Northern Japan with a dozen NCOs (specialized MOS) soldiers for a three month TDY (temporary duty).

During those three months I tolerated a lot of disconcerting circumstances. My first hint was after we boarded the plane, some of the men's wedding rings "came off." Oh, don't get me started on the drunk fest and our efforts to tone things down when going through Customs. :eyes: However, before we checked in at our temporary command, I had "a huddle" with the 2nd in Command - E6 - and agreed on the ground rules of *troops gone wild.* The key word was discretion - don't let Me (SSG) or the LT see it (adultery), or ELSE!

You can't CHANGE people's prejudices or morals. ---> The BEST you can do as a leader is "set the example."

That's why I'm so disappointed with HRC using "Hillary" as her campaign name.

The SSG never participated in the "drunk dis'ing" of the LT during after hours but he did inform me of RESENTMENTS because I would not permit US (or myself) to each other by FIRST NAMES after duty. They'd go on and on how damn arrogant it was of me to hold this line. However, the seasoned NCOs respected me for "respecting them."

My Point: When you get TOO FAMILIAR and begin with "first names" you are breeding contempt ESPECIALLY within a military environment.

HRC wanted to be our surrogate girlfriend/mother. :wow: I don't believe that she UNDERSTANDS the qualities of leadership and team building are often lonely times. That is, no, you don't take shots with the troops and you permit a little "who does she think she is?!" among subordinates. To be "everybody's girlfriend" is NOT leadership.

HRC would serve as an OUTSTANDING Governor of NY State.

HRC's highly intelligent and versed on the details - but she's not - Presidential Material. HRC is not an inspiring leader. :( :shrug:

[izzie]

39. I do also but it is because I do not mean Bill..

I used to just say Clinton and people would think I was talking about Bill. It has not one thing to do with not liking women with me. I am a women. I would love to see a women in the WH but just not if it comes from the Bush/Clinton group. They are old time thinkers. We have had enough of these people I feel.

[AldebTX]

41. Its What the Campaign Literature Uses

Hillary has Hillary 08 all over everything...not Clinton. I think that was because she wanted to set herself apart from President Bill Clinton.

Obama uses Obama 08.

I think its nothing more sinister then that.

If it is subtle sexism then Clinton needs to use Clinton to refer to herself and not Hillary.

(The last line was on purpose...I have never heard her refer to herself as anything but Hillary)

Maybe Hillary Clinton is being sexist?

[H2O Man]

45. Best answer.

This is really pretty simple.

[Vinca]

42. That's what she wants to be called. I'm always on the alert for

whether they call one Mr./Mrs. and the other Senator. That's happened a few times . . . Obama being the one who is Mr. versus Senator Clinton. We've got to get beyond this nitpicky stuff.

[ShortnFiery]

43. No sexism with HRC, she ran as "our girlfriend" all her ADs= "HILLARY" ... it's her Clinton roots

that is causing the lion's share of animosity.

No, there IS plenty of misogyny in the Good Ole US of A. I experienced it, "Up close and personal" as a young Army Officer during the early 1980s. However, THIS is not about "sexism" now.

Now this is about stubborn ambition and the massive "Clintonian ego" and "sense of entitlement."

As a woman, I'm ashamed of HRC's tactics FOR my gender.

Even as a woman Officer serving in the NEWLY INTEGRATED military (from the Womens Army Corps) I did NOT EVER feel a need to "swagger like the boys" ... sure I could out run them, in boots :evilgrin: and THAT'S PART OF THE SOLUTION.

HRC is not "all women" and I refuse to play into the fact that she's been "sexually discriminated against."

Her being "a Clinton" with the budding economy of her husband and his Presidency in the recent past TRUMPS her gender.

What's most unfortunate is that HRC (and her surrogates) has falsely played "the gender card" and doing that hurts all career women. :shrug:

Forgive me, but I do not respect those who will "sell their soul" - now playing *the race card* in order further their PERSONAL AMBITIONS.

The numerous SENIOR OFFICERS who were highly respected by both "the troops" and "their superiors" were first and foremost TEAM BUILDERS not "cage fighters."

HRC and her husband needs to "dig deep" and bow out graciously NOW if they wish to recapture the respect of the American People.

[EffieBlack]

46. This used to bother me until I realized that the Clinton campaign ENCOURAGES this

Probably for two reasons: 1) to differentiate her from the other Clinton; and 2) to make her seem more down-to-earth.

[merh]

47. Well if he said Clinton, there are two active Clintons in politics

and 3 active Clintons in the campaign - which one is he talking about if he says clinton. Doesn't he refer to Bill as Bill.

I am a woman and the shit some of you folks post about that gets you all upset floors me. Do you even think?

If you want to be pissed off, be pissed off that your candidate, who alleges she is a feminist, will go down in history as having run one of the worst campaigns in modern history and that her refusal to leave with legacy makes it look like women are not good sports, just whiney spoiled beings that will make your life miserable when they have to.

[scheming daemons]

48. The OP is calling Mrs. Clinton a sexist.....

SHE approved yard signs and bumper stickers that ONLY say "Hillary" and have no reference to her last name.

[Buzz Clik]

49. Thursday is Sexism Day. Friday is "Why Can't He Close the Deal."

We have THREE Clintons with their faces in front of the camera 24/7 -- Chelsea, Bill, and Hillary. One of them was President. She recognized early on that she needed to distinguish herself from Bill, so she's Hillary all the time.

We saw the same thing with Bush -- he was Junior, Dubya, GW Bush, etc. When the last name is already famous from someone in your family, it happens.

[pompano]

50. You've got to be kidding.....

I was hunting for the :sarcasm: thingy at the bottom.

Have you seen very many campaign signs to date with "Mrs. Clinton" on them? Did she get all those campaign slogans done at Sexism Ad. Agency?

Calling Hillary, "Hillary" is taboo?

What do you call this? "hard working Americans, White Americans"

Ridiculous.

[Berry Cool]

51. Keith has called her BOTH "Hillary" AND "Senator Clinton" many times.

I have never had a problem with when he calls her "Hillary" precisely because of the way she has marketed herself in her campaign, from the time she made her first Senate run, as "Hillary" on her signage.

I see nothing disrespectful or sexist about it any more than many of the other posters here do.

Now run along and find another source of faux outrage for today.

[DevonRex]

52. Her bumper stickers say HILLARY. All her campaign signs say

HILLARY. All her campaign buttons say HILLARY.

All Obama's say OBAMA.

For cryin' out loud...

[Jed Dilligan]

54. So why does it say Hillary on all her campaign signs and stickers?

Is she sexist against herself?

[Norwood]

56. So tired of the sexism cries its ridiculous

You want to know why most people refer to her as Hillary and to Obama as Obama?

This is Obamas logo



This is Clintons logo

[Goodnevil]

57. So tired

of this politically correct madness. Maybe we had to get this out of our systems...maybe we didn't.

We have some real issues to deal with as a country, not this tomfoolery. Racism and sexism are real problems but they do not immediately threaten our entire economy, way of life and health.

Before anyone calls me a sexist, I would advise them that I worship a goddess and am a male. I'm actually studying under my wife, who is a high priestess in a very prominent goddess-oriented spiritual practice to become a high priest. I thought very much that we could use a mother until Hillary decided it would be fun to throw her hat in with the Republican base and bomb Iran.

I'm fine dealing with those social problems in time, but we are in crisis mode here in the U.S. and the problems that we have cannot be derailed by political flakery (word?).

I get that this is an open forum, but none of this hate speech is going to get us anywhere but garner more hate. I wish that it would stop.

In the words of Forrest Gump: "That's all I have to say about that."

[dorktv]

59. I decided to do the same thing ages ago. Keeps me from being too much of a twit I think.

not that I succeed very well...or much. or whatever the proper phrasing is.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

60. I try to be consistent. I use either both their first names or last.

Lately I've taken to calling them Barack and Hillary. It's pretty obvious who they are at this point. The problem with using the "Clinton" moniker is that it could refer to Bill as well.